Someone explain to me how audible crying isn't the same as an "!" over the character's head. It's functionally identical. So far, this really appears to be using the same philosophy as quests in EQ1 -- all quests start by talking to an NPC. Honestly, would anyone have identified the crying lady as 'the Perception System' if there hadn't been a narrator pointing it out?
Another of the vaunted Pantheon Differences is set to turn into another case of over application of a thesaurus on an otherwise familiar system.
The end result of Pantheon may be good, maybe even entertaining, but it won't be innovative.
Except that is what innovative "is".
Just like "!" whether one likes it or not was also innovative.
This is just a more organic way for players to discover quests, one that makes sense in a more "story telling" sort of way.
How is audible crying any different from Nerissa Clothespinner walking in North Qeynos, or Lashum Novashine periodically yelling out his message? Both of those quests were in EQ1 almost from day 1.
This isn't innovation, as far as it's been shown, because it isn't new. The "!" was innovative because it didn't exist previously. The only innovation appears to be that the developers are calling this 'the Perception System'. Until there is something different, don't call it different just because you've put a new name to it.
That's just one example. And possibly not a great one.
From what I'm getting the perception system is just that, your character is in an area and "notices something". Doesn't have to be a person, it could be a draft coming from under a door or seeing light through a crack or noticing a keyhole in a bit of rock.
I'd like that. How about showing an example of that, then?
Interacting with an object to get a quest isn't new. There's countless items that start quests in LotRO, and even in the hated PWI. From how the old is being packaged as 'innovation', I would expect your examples to be implemented as an option to 'investigate light' on the door / crack or 'investigate' on a rock.
That approach only works for 'tangible' observations, with tangible objects. You see, you investigate an object, you get quest. 'Intangible' observations, like noticing there are no birds singing in this section of the woods, aren't as easy. You can't touch the wind, a smell, or a sound so it's much more difficult for the developer to set up an interaction, especially when the observation is something that isn't there. I was particularly curious about if and how VR was going to try to incorporate these type of interactions. I had hoped they were going to develop a new system to abstract intangible concepts.
If they succeed in igniting a sense of mystery in the player, rather than just adding a quest to a quest list, that would be truly innovative.
It definitely appears to me that VR is more comfortable with only implementing
existing game mechanisms and giving them new names rather than
attempting to innovate. That may be fine for others, but I had hoped for more.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Someone explain to me how audible crying isn't the same as an "!" over the character's head. It's functionally identical. So far, this really appears to be using the same philosophy as quests in EQ1 -- all quests start by talking to an NPC. Honestly, would anyone have identified the crying lady as 'the Perception System' if there hadn't been a narrator pointing it out?
Another of the vaunted Pantheon Differences is set to turn into another case of over application of a thesaurus on an otherwise familiar system.
The end result of Pantheon may be good, maybe even entertaining, but it won't be innovative.
Except that is what innovative "is".
Just like "!" whether one likes it or not was also innovative.
This is just a more organic way for players to discover quests, one that makes sense in a more "story telling" sort of way.
How is audible crying any different from Nerissa Clothespinner walking in North Qeynos, or Lashum Novashine periodically yelling out his message? Both of those quests were in EQ1 almost from day 1.
This isn't innovation, as far as it's been shown, because it isn't new. The "!" was innovative because it didn't exist previously. The only innovation appears to be that the developers are calling this 'the Perception System'. Until there is something different, don't call it different just because you've put a new name to it.
That's just one example. And possibly not a great one.
From what I'm getting the perception system is just that, your character is in an area and "notices something". Doesn't have to be a person, it could be a draft coming from under a door or seeing light through a crack or noticing a keyhole in a bit of rock.
I'd like that. How about showing an example of that, then?
Interacting with an object to get a quest isn't new. There's countless items that start quests in LotRO, and even in the hated PWI. From how the old is being packaged as 'innovation', I would expect your examples to be implemented as an option to 'investigate light' on the door / crack or 'investigate' on a rock.
This is what I got from listening to them talk about their perception system. There is another example out there that is not a "person crying", but I'll have to find it.
As far as interacting with an object giving a quest, of course "that's" not new. Then again, the mmo's I've played you "always" get an indicator that you should "push on this stone in the wall" or some such thing.
In this case, your character must have the proper ability to notice certain things. And that, as far as my experience, is new. At least for an mmo. If you aren't attuned to a certain thing or have certain knowledge then you don't "notice" and you aren't led to a certain quest/set of quests.
I do recall, in Vanguard, entering a tower and finding an area that I thought "you know this would be a perfect place for a secret door!" and lo and behold it was!
It was only later that I learned that there was a quest that actually pointed one to the area.
I'm working on a large skyrim mod where I have built int some "secrets" that require the player's actual perception to find some areas. Whether it's making a mental leap from a note that they read or noticing a repeated symbol in different areas.
Sadly, I don't think game developers are keen to do all that work only for players to "never" have a chance to find something.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
1. We're still talking about static events that will always play out the same way. Sure, there may be more hoops needed to trigger: It has to be class A that does thing B at location X,Y to trigger the quest. But once that sequence is known it will be on the internet undermining the discovery factor. MMOs in the Google age don't need more of this. What they need is a method to procedurally generate a stream of "one of" quests and events... but that brings me to #2
2. You or I, or your friend Joe may be the exception but the MMO playing masses have very little tolerance for class A being able to have access to something that class B doesn't. We have decades of "customer centric" MMO design evidence showing how even the most trivial differences between classes become a source of player complaint on the basis that they paid their dime and by God, they have a right to the exact same experience as everyone else. Unique or "one of" experiences in MMOs are only ever tolerated by the masses when the pay-off is something trivial. But if it's something important? Watch out for the wrath of the entitled gamer.
You want a recent example that contrasts this 15 years apart? When DAoC introduced the Darkness Falls dungeon they made entry dependent on one of the three realms completing a set of competitive group objectives. People loved the idea and the design was a much praised huge hit. Fast forward 15 years and ESO attempted to introduce a similar concept with the Imperial City zone. The reception? "Hey! I paid for the DLC just like anyone else and I damn better have access to it whenever I want"... so open to all always is the way they implemented it.
Maybe Pantheon can avoid this by attracting a small subset of the MMO playing public that is more appreciative of unique perks vs. democratic sameness. But I have my doubts that this is even remotely possible in 2017. Maybe a 40 yr old + age restriction? That might work
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
1. We're still talking about static events that will always play out the same way. Sure, there may be more hoops needed to trigger: It has to be class A that does thing B at location X,Y to trigger the quest. But once that sequence is known it will be on the internet undermining the discovery factor. MMOs in the Google age don't need more of this. What they need is a method to procedurally generate a stream of "one of" quests and events... but that brings me to #2
That's true and was something I was thinking about. That woman will always be crying ...
And "yes" the hope I imagine is that the game will attract a sufficient amount of the playerbase who is "ok" with this type of game play.
I actually think the people who would complain about having content "cut off" to them would see the game as indy, not AAA quality in animations and the like and will complain and move on.
Post edited by Sovrath on
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Yeah, not like the volume of that cry. You couldn't hear a sonic boom over that. I wouldn't exactly call that "organic".
The volume of the cry was turned up to make it stick out in the video. Otherwise you might not have heard it. **gasp**
Hmm, that sounds like the response of someone who doesn't really have a good answer, and is using sarcasm and their internet personality as a diversionary tactic. But since we know, love, and trust you we know that can't be true.
Why did you feel the need to make it loud and stand out like an
exclamation point instead of demonstrating how it would actually play
out in the game?
So how did you hear it? Were you just playing the game and came across a woman crying and thought you should talk to her? How did she stand out? Or did VR set it up so you knew who to talk to and what to click on?
How exactly will people know what sounds to pay attention (how to perception sounds differ from what others hear or what you would hear normally?) to or does VR expect people to click on everything that looks interactive? How do you think VR will make the visual and auditory clues apparent as perception events without making them simple drop in "!" replacements?
I'm speaking only to the volume of the cry, hence why I cut the rest of your response out of my message. I turned it up in my editing because you couldn't hear it over my voice. I also cut the music at that point to make it stick out more, simply so that viewers could hear what I was talking about. It's an example that was exaggerated for effect.
I can't speak to anything else.
Sarcasm? Most definitely. Diversionary tactic? No. Simply correcting a misconception because I'm the one who did it. :awesome:
Someone explain to me how audible crying isn't the same as an "!" over the character's head. It's functionally identical. So far, this really appears to be using the same philosophy as quests in EQ1 -- all quests start by talking to an NPC. Honestly, would anyone have identified the crying lady as 'the Perception System' if there hadn't been a narrator pointing it out?
Another of the vaunted Pantheon Differences is set to turn into another case of over application of a thesaurus on an otherwise familiar system.
The end result of Pantheon may be good, maybe even entertaining, but it won't be innovative.
Except that is what innovative "is".
Just like "!" whether one likes it or not was also innovative.
This is just a more organic way for players to discover quests, one that makes sense in a more "story telling" sort of way.
How is audible crying any different from Nerissa Clothespinner walking in North Qeynos, or Lashum Novashine periodically yelling out his message? Both of those quests were in EQ1 almost from day 1.
This isn't innovation, as far as it's been shown, because it isn't new. The "!" was innovative because it didn't exist previously. The only innovation appears to be that the developers are calling this 'the Perception System'. Until there is something different, don't call it different just because you've put a new name to it.
That's just one example. And possibly not a great one.
From what I'm getting the perception system is just that, your character is in an area and "notices something". Doesn't have to be a person, it could be a draft coming from under a door or seeing light through a crack or noticing a keyhole in a bit of rock.
I'd like that. How about showing an example of that, then?
Interacting with an object to get a quest isn't new. There's countless items that start quests in LotRO, and even in the hated PWI. From how the old is being packaged as 'innovation', I would expect your examples to be implemented as an option to 'investigate light' on the door / crack or 'investigate' on a rock.
This is what I got from listening to them talk about their perception system. There is another example out there that is not a "person crying", but I'll have to find it.
As far as interacting with an object giving a quest, of course "that's" not new. Then again, the mmo's I've played you "always" get an indicator that you should "push on this stone in the wall" or some such thing.
In this case, your character must have the proper ability to notice certain things. And that, as far as my experience, is new. At least for an mmo. If you aren't attuned to a certain thing or have certain knowledge then you don't "notice" and you aren't led to a certain quest/set of quests.
I do recall, in Vanguard, entering a tower and finding an area that I thought "you know this would be a perfect place for a secret door!" and lo and behold it was!
It was only later that I learned that there was a quest that actually pointed one to the area.
I'm working on a large skyrim mod where I have built int some "secrets" that require the player's actual perception to find some areas. Whether it's making a mental leap from a note that they read or noticing a repeated symbol in different areas.
Sadly, I don't think game developers are keen to do all that work only for players to "never" have a chance to find something.
Regarding the ability to 'notice' things.... Will the audible crying not play on the client if the character doesn't have the appropriate skill / ability / prerequisite to hear it? Will the NPC you notice in the corner of the tavern not be rendered on my system? How is that any different from an instance?
Hearing about and reading about have nothing to do with the actual implementation, except as a broad target or goal for the system. I've heard and read the same things. Even @Nanfoodle will admit that he's not playing EQ:Next, and that had similar hype and promises expressed from developers to the public via text and video streams.
VR may talk 'innovative' and 'new', but all they've shown to date is 'derivative' and 'old'. I hope they are withholding the good stuff for some later date. Today, I suspect that all they have is the talk part.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Someone explain to me how audible crying isn't the same as an "!" over the character's head. It's functionally identical. So far, this really appears to be using the same philosophy as quests in EQ1 -- all quests start by talking to an NPC. Honestly, would anyone have identified the crying lady as 'the Perception System' if there hadn't been a narrator pointing it out?
Another of the vaunted Pantheon Differences is set to turn into another case of over application of a thesaurus on an otherwise familiar system.
The end result of Pantheon may be good, maybe even entertaining, but it won't be innovative.
Except that is what innovative "is".
Just like "!" whether one likes it or not was also innovative.
This is just a more organic way for players to discover quests, one that makes sense in a more "story telling" sort of way.
How is audible crying any different from Nerissa Clothespinner walking in North Qeynos, or Lashum Novashine periodically yelling out his message? Both of those quests were in EQ1 almost from day 1.
This isn't innovation, as far as it's been shown, because it isn't new. The "!" was innovative because it didn't exist previously. The only innovation appears to be that the developers are calling this 'the Perception System'. Until there is something different, don't call it different just because you've put a new name to it.
That's just one example. And possibly not a great one.
From what I'm getting the perception system is just that, your character is in an area and "notices something". Doesn't have to be a person, it could be a draft coming from under a door or seeing light through a crack or noticing a keyhole in a bit of rock.
I'd like that. How about showing an example of that, then?
Interacting with an object to get a quest isn't new. There's countless items that start quests in LotRO, and even in the hated PWI. From how the old is being packaged as 'innovation', I would expect your examples to be implemented as an option to 'investigate light' on the door / crack or 'investigate' on a rock.
This is what I got from listening to them talk about their perception system. There is another example out there that is not a "person crying", but I'll have to find it.
As far as interacting with an object giving a quest, of course "that's" not new. Then again, the mmo's I've played you "always" get an indicator that you should "push on this stone in the wall" or some such thing.
In this case, your character must have the proper ability to notice certain things. And that, as far as my experience, is new. At least for an mmo. If you aren't attuned to a certain thing or have certain knowledge then you don't "notice" and you aren't led to a certain quest/set of quests.
I do recall, in Vanguard, entering a tower and finding an area that I thought "you know this would be a perfect place for a secret door!" and lo and behold it was!
It was only later that I learned that there was a quest that actually pointed one to the area.
I'm working on a large skyrim mod where I have built int some "secrets" that require the player's actual perception to find some areas. Whether it's making a mental leap from a note that they read or noticing a repeated symbol in different areas.
Sadly, I don't think game developers are keen to do all that work only for players to "never" have a chance to find something.
Regarding the ability to 'notice' things.... Will the audible crying not play on the client if the character doesn't have the appropriate skill / ability / prerequisite to hear it? Will the NPC you notice in the corner of the tavern not be rendered on my system? How is that any different from an instance?
No I think the crux of the system is that you get a message such as "you notice blah blah blah".
So you might still hear the crying but or a hawker selling his wares but there might be a message that says "you hear a hawker shouting his wares but his voice sounds strained and tired and perhaps tinged with fear", etc.
Their system is sort of like a dungeon master (it seems). As far as further implementation you would have to ask them, I mean, the game isn't really out yet so we don't know the extent to their system or even if it will matter.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I like the BASIC idea but not if it is just locked quests to certain races/classes.There is no CHOICE if i will never unlock the quest because i lack that perception and can never achieve the needed perception line.
I feel they were on the right track until i heard about certain lockouts,i feel EVERY single player should have access to a quest but through various different means.
However just the first part of no markers over npc heads and no lights leading me down a path,is a MASSIVE plus and puts a smile on my face.
Interesting points, but I don't agree with it. Here is an example for why I like that some quests are for specific races or classes - I like dwarfs and elves but hate Wizards. Sorry, not going to ask a Wizard to help assist me no matter what because Wizards tend to complain a lot.
Yeah, not like the volume of that cry. You couldn't hear a sonic boom over that. I wouldn't exactly call that "organic".
The volume of the cry was turned up to make it stick out in the video. Otherwise you might not have heard it. **gasp**
Hmm, that sounds like the response of someone who doesn't really have a good answer, and is using sarcasm and their internet personality as a diversionary tactic. But since we know, love, and trust you we know that can't be true.
Why did you feel the need to make it loud and stand out like an
exclamation point instead of demonstrating how it would actually play
out in the game?
So how did you hear it? Were you just playing the game and came across a woman crying and thought you should talk to her? How did she stand out? Or did VR set it up so you knew who to talk to and what to click on?
How exactly will people know what sounds to pay attention (how to perception sounds differ from what others hear or what you would hear normally?) to or does VR expect people to click on everything that looks interactive? How do you think VR will make the visual and auditory clues apparent as perception events without making them simple drop in "!" replacements?
I'm speaking only to the volume of the cry, hence why I cut the rest of your response out of my message. I turned it up in my editing because you couldn't hear it over my voice. I also cut the music at that point to make it stick out more, simply so that viewers could hear what I was talking about. It's an example that was exaggerated for effect.
I can't speak to anything else.
Sarcasm? Most definitely. Diversionary tactic? No. Simply correcting a misconception because I'm the one who did it. :awesome:
People will just look up where to go and what to do. Just because its not easy in-game doesnt mean that it wont be easy.
I agree, but I think that the point is that this is something that is heavily story/exploration driven. I think the target audience for this system is probably not going to be using online guides.
However, I don't disagree with you, either. There will be guides, just like there were still guides existing for games with exclamation marks over NPCs heads. I didn't think it needed to get any easier than that
Exactly I've never been a fan of using guides or the common walk through, the fun is in exploring, finding things, solving puzzles, etc.. Why take the fun out of it?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
People are talking about "procedurally generated" crap, and cutting content from people being a positive... but this game was intended to be a successor to EQ, and appeal to EQ fans... that is not EQ, that's the future Elder Scrolls... "We" do not want that... "We" are fine with quests being discovered by someone and then put on the internet for the rest of us to find.
This game was not supposed to be flooded with quests, in the first place... which means the quests that exist should be meaningfully rewarding... and when something has meaningful rewards, it generally becomes required for anyone at the top-end... now if required equipment/spells are dictated by RNG or Race restrictions; that is not EQ, and it's not good.
People will just look up where to go and what to do. Just because its not easy in-game doesnt mean that it wont be easy.
Also, they really are just quests under a new name but this time theres no ? or !
Best thing about online guides.... You don't have to use them.
Never understood the argument "it's not difficult because online guides". The answer/counter is implicit in the complaint: If online guides undermine your experience... don't use them!
If you're in a group that "requires" your use of them, well, you have the option of not runnign with that group. Find one that prefers exploring, discovering and solving on their own.
Comments
I'd like that. How about showing an example of that, then?
Interacting with an object to get a quest isn't new. There's countless items that start quests in LotRO, and even in the hated PWI. From how the old is being packaged as 'innovation', I would expect your examples to be implemented as an option to 'investigate light' on the door / crack or 'investigate' on a rock.
That approach only works for 'tangible' observations, with tangible objects. You see, you investigate an object, you get quest. 'Intangible' observations, like noticing there are no birds singing in this section of the woods, aren't as easy. You can't touch the wind, a smell, or a sound so it's much more difficult for the developer to set up an interaction, especially when the observation is something that isn't there. I was particularly curious about if and how VR was going to try to incorporate these type of interactions. I had hoped they were going to develop a new system to abstract intangible concepts.
If they succeed in igniting a sense of mystery in the player, rather than just adding a quest to a quest list, that would be truly innovative.
It definitely appears to me that VR is more comfortable with only implementing
existing game mechanisms and giving them new names rather than
attempting to innovate. That may be fine for others, but I had hoped for more.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
This is what I got from listening to them talk about their perception system. There is another example out there that is not a "person crying", but I'll have to find it.
As far as interacting with an object giving a quest, of course "that's" not new. Then again, the mmo's I've played you "always" get an indicator that you should "push on this stone in the wall" or some such thing.
In this case, your character must have the proper ability to notice certain things. And that, as far as my experience, is new. At least for an mmo. If you aren't attuned to a certain thing or have certain knowledge then you don't "notice" and you aren't led to a certain quest/set of quests.
I do recall, in Vanguard, entering a tower and finding an area that I thought "you know this would be a perfect place for a secret door!" and lo and behold it was!
It was only later that I learned that there was a quest that actually pointed one to the area.
I'm working on a large skyrim mod where I have built int some "secrets" that require the player's actual perception to find some areas. Whether it's making a mental leap from a note that they read or noticing a repeated symbol in different areas.
Sadly, I don't think game developers are keen to do all that work only for players to "never" have a chance to find something.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
1. We're still talking about static events that will always play out the same way. Sure, there may be more hoops needed to trigger: It has to be class A that does thing B at location X,Y to trigger the quest. But once that sequence is known it will be on the internet undermining the discovery factor. MMOs in the Google age don't need more of this. What they need is a method to procedurally generate a stream of "one of" quests and events... but that brings me to #2
2. You or I, or your friend Joe may be the exception but the MMO playing masses have very little tolerance for class A being able to have access to something that class B doesn't. We have decades of "customer centric" MMO design evidence showing how even the most trivial differences between classes become a source of player complaint on the basis that they paid their dime and by God, they have a right to the exact same experience as everyone else. Unique or "one of" experiences in MMOs are only ever tolerated by the masses when the pay-off is something trivial. But if it's something important? Watch out for the wrath of the entitled gamer.
You want a recent example that contrasts this 15 years apart? When DAoC introduced the Darkness Falls dungeon they made entry dependent on one of the three realms completing a set of competitive group objectives. People loved the idea and the design was a much praised huge hit. Fast forward 15 years and ESO attempted to introduce a similar concept with the Imperial City zone. The reception? "Hey! I paid for the DLC just like anyone else and I damn better have access to it whenever I want"... so open to all always is the way they implemented it.
Maybe Pantheon can avoid this by attracting a small subset of the MMO playing public that is more appreciative of unique perks vs. democratic sameness. But I have my doubts that this is even remotely possible in 2017. Maybe a 40 yr old + age restriction? That might work
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
The volume of the cry was turned up to make it stick out in the video. Otherwise you might not have heard it. **gasp**
View more silliness at http://www.youtube.com/thehiveleader
That's true and was something I was thinking about. That woman will always be crying ...
And "yes" the hope I imagine is that the game will attract a sufficient amount of the playerbase who is "ok" with this type of game play.
I actually think the people who would complain about having content "cut off" to them would see the game as indy, not AAA quality in animations and the like and will complain and move on.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I'm speaking only to the volume of the cry, hence why I cut the rest of your response out of my message. I turned it up in my editing because you couldn't hear it over my voice. I also cut the music at that point to make it stick out more, simply so that viewers could hear what I was talking about. It's an example that was exaggerated for effect.
I can't speak to anything else.
Sarcasm? Most definitely.
Diversionary tactic? No.
Simply correcting a misconception because I'm the one who did it. :awesome:
View more silliness at http://www.youtube.com/thehiveleader
Hearing about and reading about have nothing to do with the actual implementation, except as a broad target or goal for the system. I've heard and read the same things. Even @Nanfoodle will admit that he's not playing EQ:Next, and that had similar hype and promises expressed from developers to the public via text and video streams.
VR may talk 'innovative' and 'new', but all they've shown to date is 'derivative' and 'old'. I hope they are withholding the good stuff for some later date. Today, I suspect that all they have is the talk part.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
No I think the crux of the system is that you get a message such as "you notice blah blah blah".
So you might still hear the crying but or a hawker selling his wares but there might be a message that says "you hear a hawker shouting his wares but his voice sounds strained and tired and perhaps tinged with fear", etc.
Their system is sort of like a dungeon master (it seems). As far as further implementation you would have to ask them, I mean, the game isn't really out yet so we don't know the extent to their system or even if it will matter.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Interesting points, but I don't agree with it. Here is an example for why I like that some quests are for specific races or classes - I like dwarfs and elves but hate Wizards. Sorry, not going to ask a Wizard to help assist me no matter what because Wizards tend to complain a lot.
Exactly I've never been a fan of using guides or the common walk through, the fun is in exploring, finding things, solving puzzles, etc.. Why take the fun out of it?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
This game was not supposed to be flooded with quests, in the first place... which means the quests that exist should be meaningfully rewarding... and when something has meaningful rewards, it generally becomes required for anyone at the top-end... now if required equipment/spells are dictated by RNG or Race restrictions; that is not EQ, and it's not good.
Best thing about online guides.... You don't have to use them.
Never understood the argument "it's not difficult because online guides". The answer/counter is implicit in the complaint: If online guides undermine your experience... don't use them!
If you're in a group that "requires" your use of them, well, you have the option of not runnign with that group. Find one that prefers exploring, discovering and solving on their own.