"I agree, open world PvP is just for gankers with mental health issues"
"Wait.. what? No, I don't play PvP games but I know for a fact that PvP is linked to mental issues"
"What was that? No... I'm not medically trained but if you play game you hurt another character you're mental"
"Well, two other people agreed with me so I must be saying something right"
This thread lol
No, I don't think killing another person's character is wrong. I do think it's lame to go around killing people in a game who have no chance of defeating you and little chance of getting revenge though. But it's not necessarily the player's fault. The implementation of pvp in most games is terrible. In real life, even a child can defeat a giant with a sling stone.
Don't get me wrong. I want villainous and criminal behavior to be allowed in a game. But I also want heroes and lawful people to have a good chance of fighting back against those who try to prey on them.
I don't expect that a gankfest game will ever be mainstream. But I'm interested in making open world pvp that doesn't become a gankfest.
Ah, that is actually not so hard. Just take any battlefield game, add a persistent world, 10 000 players on each server and a little horizontal progression. Instant superhit.
The problem comes when you want to mix standard MMO progression and open world PvP, that had been tried many times and all have failed (even if some failures were more spectacular then others).
You could probably go up to GWs progression but past that the PvP will become the usual boring gankfeast. An actual MMOFPS game (a real one instead of the ones people claim are MMOFPS) have a huge potential.
If you want a MMORPG with open world PvP you need to stop using D&D as a base for it. Now if you built it around Shadowruns mechanics instead that could work but the D&D mechanics is made for PvE with people very close to you in level. It is not made for PvP and it doesn't work for it.
Still, with the right thinking you can make a great open world PvP MMO, no douby about that . Good luck.
You will have to have serious consequences to random PVP. Might makes right does not work in MMO. Even in real life it has taken centuries for basic human rights for a small percentage of the worlds population. So imagine trying to make it work in a part time no consequence game.
I always assume taking their time is the best route. That's what is stolen usually in PvP games as they killed and robbed. If you randomly kill you can have NPC bounty hunters hired to randomly attack you and imprison you for a time.
I want the possibility of random PvP. I'm really not a carebear. At least I don't think I am.
I think a lot of people who play PvP games just to gank people are just looking for a fight. They are intensely competitive people seeking out the most competitive aspects of what MMOs have to offer.
I think people who play PvP games just to camp newbs in starter areas and find ways to pervert the game mechanics so they can hunt down the people who choose to live in the safer areas are classic school yard bullies, with whatever mental problems being a bully entails. And PvP games need to stop pretending they are part of the "hardcore" community and catering to them in any way whatsoever. They are simply the people who couldn't hack it in the more competitive PvP found in the areas of game like EVE's Wormhole and Null Sec space.
They are bottom feeders that drive away people from PvP games and create the kneejerk reactions most carebears give when they hear the phrase "Open World PvP." Game developers need to stop tolerating them, and players of Open World PvP games need to stop tolerating them if we ever want to see our genre of choice succeed.
The day we as a community realize that suicide ganking and wardec corporations offer no positive benefits to the PvP community whatsoever is the day we start to see player retention increase in the games we love, and the increased revenue benefiting all aspects of the game.
I don't think it's ever too late to create a game that can restore a positive image to Open World PvP in all but the eyes of the most diehard carebears but we can never do it by succumbing the mistakes that have cast almost all such games in an extremely negative light to what is unfortunately a majority of the gaming community.
The bottom feeders are the problem.
I think the reason a lot of people play mmorpgs (or any video game) is because they feel powerless in their real lives and mmorpgs allow them to feel powerful. (Besides the fact that many people consider their lives to be boring and they're trying to make them more interesting.) Anyway, perhaps a lot people don't like PvP because it makes them feel powerless again. And they're not playing the game to feel powerless. However, if the PvP in a game puts everyone or most people on an equal footing, is fair and competitive, then perhaps they will realize that they aren't powerless to fight back in the game.
I agree and disagree with what you are saying. Both in terms of realism / building an immersive world and in terms of developing a fun game.
Realism/Authentic Feeling World - The idea that someone could go on a psychopathic murdering spree and then wander around the streets of a lawful town is laughable. Yeah... not going to happen. But there are cannibalistic tribes in certain areas of the world that behave very like ganker guilds do in open world PvP games. The difference is people have the ability to choose where they go. You have very low chances of being randomly gunned down if you choose to go to safe areas in safe towns. And "declaring war" is not going to allow you to gun someone down in the middle of town and expect the police to just stand back and do nothing.
A more real / authentic feeling game is going to have proper consequences in some areas of the world, and utterly lawlessness in others. What areas are what way would largely be decided by the culture of the area.
Fun - Some people are going to want complete and utter security with no chance of every being subjected to non-consensual PvP. Some people want complete and utter lawlessness and to be able to kill whoever they want, wherever they want, for any reason they want. Making areas of the game that cater to both players and other areas that cater to players somewhere between these two extremes is the most logical solution.
You go to the lawful-good human lands and it's the carebear capital of your dreams. You go to the orcish wastelands and you may end up butchered and cooked into a stew just for breathing and not being affiliated with whatever orc clan happened across you.
That isn't really true. Any cannibalistic tribe I ever heard about (particularly the ones that until recent years excisted in New Guinea) did never hunt people from their own tribe. So they acted (or act if there is any left, there are different opinions about that) like RvR players killing people from other factions, not like the FFA gankers.
The solution is that you must have factional PvP, FFA never works. There is more to it of course but that is the basic.
I agree and disagree with what you are saying. Both in terms of realism / building an immersive world and in terms of developing a fun game.
Realism/Authentic Feeling World - The idea that someone could go on a psychopathic murdering spree and then wander around the streets of a lawful town is laughable. Yeah... not going to happen. But there are cannibalistic tribes in certain areas of the world that behave very like ganker guilds do in open world PvP games. The difference is people have the ability to choose where they go. You have very low chances of being randomly gunned down if you choose to go to safe areas in safe towns. And "declaring war" is not going to allow you to gun someone down in the middle of town and expect the police to just stand back and do nothing.
A more real / authentic feeling game is going to have proper consequences in some areas of the world, and utterly lawlessness in others. What areas are what way would largely be decided by the culture of the area.
Fun - Some people are going to want complete and utter security with no chance of every being subjected to non-consensual PvP. Some people want complete and utter lawlessness and to be able to kill whoever they want, wherever they want, for any reason they want. Making areas of the game that cater to both players and other areas that cater to players somewhere between these two extremes is the most logical solution.
You go to the lawful-good human lands and it's the carebear capital of your dreams. You go to the orcish wastelands and you may end up butchered and cooked into a stew just for breathing and not being affiliated with whatever orc clan happened across you.
That isn't really true. Any cannibalistic tribe I ever heard about (particularly the ones that until recent years excisted in New Guinea) did never hunt people from their own tribe. So they acted (or act if there is any left, there are different opinions about that) like RvR players killing people from other factions, not like the FFA gankers.
The solution is that you must have factional PvP, FFA never works. There is more to it of course but that is the basic.
Yes, I agree. Factions are necessary. There should be the possibility of leaving a faction and trying to survive that way though. Of course, it would not be easy.
I don't expect that a gankfest game will ever be mainstream. But I'm interested in making open world pvp that doesn't become a gankfest.
Ah, that is actually not so hard. Just take any battlefield game, add a persistent world, 10 000 players on each server and a little horizontal progression. Instant superhit.
The problem comes when you want to mix standard MMO progression and open world PvP, that had been tried many times and all have failed (even if some failures were more spectacular then others).
You could probably go up to GWs progression but past that the PvP will become the usual boring gankfeast. An actual MMOFPS game (a real one instead of the ones people claim are MMOFPS) have a huge potential.
If you want a MMORPG with open world PvP you need to stop using D&D as a base for it. Now if you built it around Shadowruns mechanics instead that could work but the D&D mechanics is made for PvE with people very close to you in level. It is not made for PvP and it doesn't work for it.
Still, with the right thinking you can make a great open world PvP MMO, no douby about that . Good luck.
Yes, I know D&D level progression can't work for an open world pvp mmorpg. Unfortunately, I'm not a programmer, and I don't have any ties to game developers. I just have dreams and ideas. Check out my first response to Eldurian if you want to read some of them.
I think people who play PvP games just to camp newbs in starter areas and find ways to pervert the game mechanics so they can hunt down the people who choose to live in the safer areas are classic school yard bullies, with whatever mental problems being a bully entails. And PvP games need to stop pretending they are part of the "hardcore" community and catering to them in any way whatsoever. They are simply the people who couldn't hack it in the more competitive PvP found in the areas of game like EVE's Wormhole and Null Sec space.
They are bottom feeders that drive away people from PvP games and create the kneejerk reactions most carebears give when they hear the phrase "Open World PvP." Game developers need to stop tolerating them, and players of Open World PvP games need to stop tolerating them if we ever want to see our genre of choice succeed.
That's what people don't understand, camping the starting area's is not what Open World PvP is about but to 99% of people who don't play PvP games this is all they ever talk about. That's all I ever see when ever threads like this pop up...
"I got ganked by somebody with mental issues" or it could just be that the PvP game you're playing is dead and the person that ganked you was bored loser who couldn't find a fight.
Whatever works for you
I am a player of Open World PvP games. I have played most Open World full loot PvP games that have made any kind of splash in the market over the last 10 years. I've also spent considerably more time playing them than games without Open PvP.
Here's my fresh EVE account I used just to play around for a month or two in a newbie corporation:
Notice the 98.2% isk efficiency rating and the 4.5b ISK of kills I got in just sort of occasionally kicking around with my low-sec corp.
So I'm no stranger to Open World PvP, I know how to work Risk vs. Reward, and I'm generally pretty successful in the Open World PvP games.
What I've learned though, is living in low-sec with your newb corp that knows how to fight is even safer than living in high sec with your carebear crew. On my older account when I lived in null sec I found it to be a very peaceful place where I was seldom disturbed and mainly just spent all day making buttloads of ISK. I actually made a new account and joined a low sec corp because I wanted more action.
Highsec players / newbs are thee most preyed upon demographic in any Open World PvP game. That's why you hear about newb gankers so much. They are the representatives of the Open World PvP community to those outside it. They are the first thing people see when they join these games, and they are the majority of PvP that most people who try our genre get.
They are not a myth, or a perceived problem of the ignorant. They are a very real problem that's destroying our community by driving away many players before they get the chance to experience the amazing sides of Open World PvP people like us have gotten to taste.
Seriously... some of the comments in this thread deserve snowflake timeout in a college safe space.
Saying "I don't like PvP"... totally valid Projecting all these personality traits onto PvPers is just silly.
Some of these posts sound like a victim hotline.
Exactly!! Who plays a game and expects to fail!?
"Welp guys, I found an awesome game but the title says open world PvP so I won't be participating"
Why is that?
"Because soon as I log in i'm going to be ganked repeatedly by the games top elite warriors lose all my stuff and regress into a severe state of depression"
It's a PvP game, doesn't everybody die and lose their stuff at on point?
"YOU'RE NOT LISTING TO ME... THERE ARE GANKERS IN THE GAME.. YOU KNOW, PEOPLE THAT KILL OTHER PLAYERS.. I'M DONE"
Given the size of a cannibalistic tribe I actually do feel they are very accurately reflected by ganker guilds. Cannibalistic tribes are small tribal units. Maybe 10-30 people. 50 tops. Like your average ganker guild. A faction is like a 3rd of the population. This is actually not accurate.
In terms of fun, I loathe factions. I like to let my ideals, personal convictions, and the relationships I've built as a player determine who are my allies, and who are my enemies. Factions present a meaningless choice:
"Red, Blue, or Green?"
After you make this meaningless choice anyone who chose the same color as you is now your "ally" and you are expected to work with them. Anyone who chose a different color is now your "enemy" and you are expected to fight against them.
So if you chose Red, and "We Gank Newbs" chose red, you are now allies. "We Protect Newbs" chose green. They are your enemy now.
It doesn't matter that "We Gank Newbs" does nothing but camp the lowest level blue and green zones with PvP enabled on max level twinked out characters and you're utterly repulsed by them, and that "We Protect Newbs" are really cool guys who you would love to forge an alliance with. It's all about the colors.
And that is why I loathe factional PvP. I want to fight for my ideals and convictions. Not for a color. Or an NPC king with scripted lines that stands for no ideals whatsoever outside the lore.
And that is why I loathe factional PvP. I want to fight for my ideals and convictions. Not for a color. Or an NPC king with scripted lines that stands for no ideals whatsoever outside the lore.
Good thing then that there ARE FFA PvP games for you to play! Just like there ARE factions PvP games! And full PvE games!
Imagine that, variety...
Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
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I've heard EVE is a good PvP game, but I'm not interested in playing in space. To me, space is just as much fantasy as a world based on Tolkien's stories btw. I'm not convinced that faster-than-light speed travel is any more possible than time travel. But at least I can play a human and do things resembling what humans have actually done in the past in a medieval fantasy world. Though I wouldn't mind playing a modern or historical mmorpg either. Futuristic probably wouldn't be my cup of tea, too open to speculation and the other's opinions of how they want the future to be or think it should be. A superhero game with Neverwinter-style action combat might be fun, though I wouldn't take it too seriously.
Factions can be good if they actually represent a community/settlement/civilization. When you're born into the real world, you don't get to pick your family or your neighbors at first. If you don't like the community you're born into, you can leave and strike out on your own, maybe join a gang of bandits, become a hermit, a traveling merchant, an itinerant craftsman, a vagabond, or try to join a community where you feel like you belong. Of course, it's a difficult road after you leave your original community, and getting a new community to trust you will not be easy.
It would be cool if it was possible to born into a nomadic tribe in a game as well.
@General-Zod and Slapshot1188 - You guys haven't quoted me at all, so I'm wondering if you read all of my posts, and, if so, which part or sentence in particular do you really have a problem with?
@General-Zod and Slapshot1188 - You guys haven't quoted me at all, so I'm wondering if you read all of my posts, and, if so, which part or sentence in particular do you really have a problem with?
I dont have a problem with you having an opinion about the type of game you want, thus I haven't quoted or responded to you.
I have a problem with people who want to make ridiculous statement about the mental health of PvP players. I simply think it's the pot calling the kettle black.
Since you asked though:
I think your opening statement is correct: "Open pvp is only sustainable if there are consequences for behaving like a wolf or a criminal. Not that people shouldn't be able to play villains. In fact, I believe they should be. But it shouldn't be an easy and risk free practice to go around preying on weaklings and noobs."
But you go off the rails with this part: "If real effort isn't put into making pvp fair and competitive, it usually dissolves into some sort of gankfest. "
PvP doesn't have to be "fair" or competitive. That's a sporting event. There are plenty of e-sport like PvP games.
You can in fact have consequences for anti-social behavior all on it's own.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Seriously... some of the comments in this thread deserve snowflake timeout in a college safe space.
Saying "I don't like PvP"... totally valid Projecting all these personality traits onto PvPers is just silly.
Some of these posts sound like a victim hotline.
Are there any mmorpg open world pvp games that don't enable your character to become a god by playing for a long time or paying a lot of money up front? I'm not interested in becoming a god or seeking power for the sole purpose of killing other people.
@General-Zod and Slapshot1188 - You guys haven't quoted me at all, so I'm wondering if you read all of my posts, and, if so, which part or sentence in particular do you really have a problem with?
I dont have a problem with you having an opinion about the type of game you want, thus I haven't quoted or responded to you.
I have a problem with people who want to make ridiculous statement about the mental health of PvP players. I simply think it's the pot calling the kettle black.
Yes, most mmorpgs are all about killing and looting. Just because we do it to another person's character instead of an AI mob, why is that the end of the world, right? I certainly don't think all PvP players have issues at all. I played a lot of war and strategy games in the past where I willingly sent thousands of soldiers to their deaths. Anyway, I think the problem is that part of the reason a lot of people play mmorpgs is to feel powerful. Getting robbed or killed and robbed by another player makes them feel powerless, and they don't like that. Though I think a big problem is the way PvP is implemented in games as well.
Interesting. What if we had a game where we didn't have to kill people to defeat them? What if we had the option of whether or not to land a killing blow? Knock them out, tie them up and leave them on the side of the road, or even take them prisoner? What if we had those options with AI mobs as well?
@General-Zod and Slapshot1188 - You guys haven't quoted me at all, so I'm wondering if you read all of my posts, and, if so, which part or sentence in particular do you really have a problem with?
Since you asked though:
I think your opening statement is correct: "Open pvp is only sustainable if there are consequences for behaving like a wolf or a criminal. Not that people shouldn't be able to play villains. In fact, I believe they should be. But it shouldn't be an easy and risk free practice to go around preying on weaklings and noobs."
But you go off the rails with this part: "If real effort isn't put into making pvp fair and competitive, it usually dissolves into some sort of gankfest. "
PvP doesn't have to be "fair" or competitive. That's a sporting event. There are plenty of e-sport like PvP games.
You can in fact have consequences for anti-social behavior all on it's own.
No, PvP doesn't have to be fair or competitive. Nothing has to be anything. But I do think that if I can't kill anyone with one hit in a game, then it's nothing like real life. The words games and sports are actually synonymous. I don't want to play a sport that isn't fair and competitive, so I don't want to play a game that isn't fair and competitive. Are you really cool with someone being able to destroy you just because they've played longer than you, more hours than you, or paid more money than you?
Of course, there are also zergs or just simply outnumbering someone in order to kill them. That is something that can happen in real life. But in a world with any kind of political and military structure, kingdoms or nations would have scouting parties, patrols, and rangers wandering the roads and wilderness at times. They might become alarmed if an army or group of bandits was causing trouble in their territory. People might even report their existence to a nearby garrison of soldiers. There are other dangers out in the wilderness as well, such as, perhaps, roaming wolf packs or warbands of demi-humans who might be drawn by the sound of battle.
@General-Zod and Slapshot1188 - You guys haven't quoted me at all, so I'm wondering if you read all of my posts, and, if so, which part or sentence in particular do you really have a problem with?
Since you asked though:
I think your opening statement is correct: "Open pvp is only sustainable if there are consequences for behaving like a wolf or a criminal. Not that people shouldn't be able to play villains. In fact, I believe they should be. But it shouldn't be an easy and risk free practice to go around preying on weaklings and noobs."
But you go off the rails with this part: "If real effort isn't put into making pvp fair and competitive, it usually dissolves into some sort of gankfest. "
PvP doesn't have to be "fair" or competitive. That's a sporting event. There are plenty of e-sport like PvP games.
You can in fact have consequences for anti-social behavior all on it's own.
No, PvP doesn't have to be fair or competitive. Nothing has to be anything. But I do think that if I can't kill anyone with one hit in a game, then it's nothing like real life. The words games and sports are actually synonymous. I don't want to play a sport that isn't fair and competitive, so I don't want to play a game that isn't fair and competitive. Are you really cool with someone being able to destroy you just because they've played longer than you, more hours than you, or paid more money than you?
Of course, there are also zergs or just simply outnumbering someone in order to kill them. That is something that can happen in real life. But in a world with any kind of political and military structure, kingdoms or nations would have scouting parties, patrols, and rangers wandering the roads and wilderness at times. They might become alarmed if an army or group of bandits was causing trouble in their territory. People might even report their existence to a nearby garrison of soldiers. There are other dangers out in the wilderness as well, such as, perhaps, roaming wolf packs or warbands of demi-humans who might be drawn by the sound of battle.
No... actually games and sports are not synonymous but to your greater point:
Those players that are stronger than I am set the goal for me to reach to. It gives a purpose to the character development journey. Right now in DAOC my main character is 48/50. He is outclassed by those who hit the level cap (50) and have geared themselves through various means. That gap is what drives me to continually get better and more powerful. In an RPG I want to watch my character get better and I want the success and failures to be dictated as much as possible by their characteristics.
As for 1 shot kills... I have nothing against the concept and would look at a game that implemented it. Honestly though, I think the ultimate FFA PvP setting would involve permanent-death or some very, very significant penalties for dying.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Comments
No, I don't think killing another person's character is wrong. I do think it's lame to go around killing people in a game who have no chance of defeating you and little chance of getting revenge though. But it's not necessarily the player's fault. The implementation of pvp in most games is terrible. In real life, even a child can defeat a giant with a sling stone.
Don't get me wrong. I want villainous and criminal behavior to be allowed in a game. But I also want heroes and lawful people to have a good chance of fighting back against those who try to prey on them.
I don't think all PvPers are like that. I want to play a good PvP mmorpg. One that is fair and competitive.
Ah, that is actually not so hard. Just take any battlefield game, add a persistent world, 10 000 players on each server and a little horizontal progression. Instant superhit.
The problem comes when you want to mix standard MMO progression and open world PvP, that had been tried many times and all have failed (even if some failures were more spectacular then others).
You could probably go up to GWs progression but past that the PvP will become the usual boring gankfeast. An actual MMOFPS game (a real one instead of the ones people claim are MMOFPS) have a huge potential.
If you want a MMORPG with open world PvP you need to stop using D&D as a base for it. Now if you built it around Shadowruns mechanics instead that could work but the D&D mechanics is made for PvE with people very close to you in level. It is not made for PvP and it doesn't work for it.
Still, with the right thinking you can make a great open world PvP MMO, no douby about that . Good luck.
The bottom feeders are the problem.
I think the reason a lot of people play mmorpgs (or any video game) is because they feel powerless in their real lives and mmorpgs allow them to feel powerful. (Besides the fact that many people consider their lives to be boring and they're trying to make them more interesting.) Anyway, perhaps a lot people don't like PvP because it makes them feel powerless again. And they're not playing the game to feel powerless. However, if the PvP in a game puts everyone or most people on an equal footing, is fair and competitive, then perhaps they will realize that they aren't powerless to fight back in the game.
That isn't really true. Any cannibalistic tribe I ever heard about (particularly the ones that until recent years excisted in New Guinea) did never hunt people from their own tribe. So they acted (or act if there is any left, there are different opinions about that) like RvR players killing people from other factions, not like the FFA gankers.
The solution is that you must have factional PvP, FFA never works. There is more to it of course but that is the basic.
Yes, I agree. Factions are necessary. There should be the possibility of leaving a faction and trying to survive that way though. Of course, it would not be easy.
Yes, I know D&D level progression can't work for an open world pvp mmorpg. Unfortunately, I'm not a programmer, and I don't have any ties to game developers. I just have dreams and ideas. Check out my first response to Eldurian if you want to read some of them.
I am a player of Open World PvP games. I have played most Open World full loot PvP games that have made any kind of splash in the market over the last 10 years. I've also spent considerably more time playing them than games without Open PvP.
Here's my fresh EVE account I used just to play around for a month or two in a newbie corporation:
https://zkillboard.com/character/96758841/
Notice the 98.2% isk efficiency rating and the 4.5b ISK of kills I got in just sort of occasionally kicking around with my low-sec corp.
So I'm no stranger to Open World PvP, I know how to work Risk vs. Reward, and I'm generally pretty successful in the Open World PvP games.
What I've learned though, is living in low-sec with your newb corp that knows how to fight is even safer than living in high sec with your carebear crew. On my older account when I lived in null sec I found it to be a very peaceful place where I was seldom disturbed and mainly just spent all day making buttloads of ISK. I actually made a new account and joined a low sec corp because I wanted more action.
Highsec players / newbs are thee most preyed upon demographic in any Open World PvP game. That's why you hear about newb gankers so much. They are the representatives of the Open World PvP community to those outside it. They are the first thing people see when they join these games, and they are the majority of PvP that most people who try our genre get.
They are not a myth, or a perceived problem of the ignorant. They are a very real problem that's destroying our community by driving away many players before they get the chance to experience the amazing sides of Open World PvP people like us have gotten to taste.
Exactly!! Who plays a game and expects to fail!?
"Welp guys, I found an awesome game but the title says open world PvP so I won't be participating"
Why is that?
"Because soon as I log in i'm going to be ganked repeatedly by the games top elite warriors lose all my stuff and regress into a severe state of depression"
It's a PvP game, doesn't everybody die and lose their stuff at on point?
"YOU'RE NOT LISTING TO ME... THERE ARE GANKERS IN THE GAME.. YOU KNOW, PEOPLE THAT KILL OTHER PLAYERS.. I'M DONE"
Okay..
In terms of fun, I loathe factions. I like to let my ideals, personal convictions, and the relationships I've built as a player determine who are my allies, and who are my enemies. Factions present a meaningless choice:
"Red, Blue, or Green?"
After you make this meaningless choice anyone who chose the same color as you is now your "ally" and you are expected to work with them. Anyone who chose a different color is now your "enemy" and you are expected to fight against them.
So if you chose Red, and "We Gank Newbs" chose red, you are now allies. "We Protect Newbs" chose green. They are your enemy now.
It doesn't matter that "We Gank Newbs" does nothing but camp the lowest level blue and green zones with PvP enabled on max level twinked out characters and you're utterly repulsed by them, and that "We Protect Newbs" are really cool guys who you would love to forge an alliance with. It's all about the colors.
And that is why I loathe factional PvP. I want to fight for my ideals and convictions. Not for a color. Or an NPC king with scripted lines that stands for no ideals whatsoever outside the lore.
Good thing then that there ARE FFA PvP games for you to play!
Just like there ARE factions PvP games!
And full PvE games!
Imagine that, variety...
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This group had 4000.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korowai_people
Or about 3000
One third of a server sounds about right.
Factions can be good if they actually represent a community/settlement/civilization. When you're born into the real world, you don't get to pick your family or your neighbors at first. If you don't like the community you're born into, you can leave and strike out on your own, maybe join a gang of bandits, become a hermit, a traveling merchant, an itinerant craftsman, a vagabond, or try to join a community where you feel like you belong. Of course, it's a difficult road after you leave your original community, and getting a new community to trust you will not be easy.
It would be cool if it was possible to born into a nomadic tribe in a game as well.
I dont have a problem with you having an opinion about the type of game you want, thus I haven't quoted or responded to you.
I have a problem with people who want to make ridiculous statement about the mental health of PvP players. I simply think it's the pot calling the kettle black.
Since you asked though:
I think your opening statement is correct: "Open pvp is only sustainable if there are consequences for behaving like a wolf or a criminal. Not that people shouldn't be able to play villains. In fact, I believe they should be. But it shouldn't be an easy and risk free practice to go around preying on weaklings and noobs."
But you go off the rails with this part: "If real effort isn't put into making pvp fair and competitive, it usually dissolves into some sort of gankfest. "
PvP doesn't have to be "fair" or competitive. That's a sporting event. There are plenty of e-sport like PvP games.
You can in fact have consequences for anti-social behavior all on it's own.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Are there any mmorpg open world pvp games that don't enable your character to become a god by playing for a long time or paying a lot of money up front? I'm not interested in becoming a god or seeking power for the sole purpose of killing other people.
Yes, most mmorpgs are all about killing and looting. Just because we do it to another person's character instead of an AI mob, why is that the end of the world, right? I certainly don't think all PvP players have issues at all. I played a lot of war and strategy games in the past where I willingly sent thousands of soldiers to their deaths. Anyway, I think the problem is that part of the reason a lot of people play mmorpgs is to feel powerful. Getting robbed or killed and robbed by another player makes them feel powerless, and they don't like that. Though I think a big problem is the way PvP is implemented in games as well.
Interesting. What if we had a game where we didn't have to kill people to defeat them? What if we had the option of whether or not to land a killing blow? Knock them out, tie them up and leave them on the side of the road, or even take them prisoner? What if we had those options with AI mobs as well?
No, PvP doesn't have to be fair or competitive. Nothing has to be anything. But I do think that if I can't kill anyone with one hit in a game, then it's nothing like real life. The words games and sports are actually synonymous. I don't want to play a sport that isn't fair and competitive, so I don't want to play a game that isn't fair and competitive. Are you really cool with someone being able to destroy you just because they've played longer than you, more hours than you, or paid more money than you?
Of course, there are also zergs or just simply outnumbering someone in order to kill them. That is something that can happen in real life. But in a world with any kind of political and military structure, kingdoms or nations would have scouting parties, patrols, and rangers wandering the roads and wilderness at times. They might become alarmed if an army or group of bandits was causing trouble in their territory. People might even report their existence to a nearby garrison of soldiers. There are other dangers out in the wilderness as well, such as, perhaps, roaming wolf packs or warbands of demi-humans who might be drawn by the sound of battle.
No... actually games and sports are not synonymous but to your greater point:
Those players that are stronger than I am set the goal for me to reach to. It gives a purpose to the character development journey. Right now in DAOC my main character is 48/50. He is outclassed by those who hit the level cap (50) and have geared themselves through various means. That gap is what drives me to continually get better and more powerful. In an RPG I want to watch my character get better and I want the success and failures to be dictated as much as possible by their characteristics.
As for 1 shot kills... I have nothing against the concept and would look at a game that implemented it. Honestly though, I think the ultimate FFA PvP setting would involve permanent-death or some very, very significant penalties for dying.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
My guess is if there was perma death there would be even more zergs because less likely to die when in a group?
Valid guess... but mine is that people would be forced to actually engage and negotiate to avoid the penalty of dying.
Hope to be able to test that some day.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018