There is only ONE correct answer. There is NO FAIR WAY to implement PVP into an MMO. Someone will always have an advantage. Plus there is NEVER a "square-off" start. It ALWAYS starts with a "gank", Then the reaction. MMORPGs have NO NEED for PVP, also considering that it only comprises around 8% of the population, PVP only pushes away a far GREATER number of "care bears" that HATE IT!! So if devs want to include a PVP server, have at it. But STOP... FOR GODS SAKE!!!!!!!! ...trying to make a game to please everyone. ...did you hear that Pantheon????
You still have not explained to me how PvP contributes to role play.
I used to play those Open-World-PvP Games, I still play MOBA's, so I have zero issues with facing off and killing or being killed by other players. I enjoyed WvW in GW2, I laid some serious siege in DAoC, so on and so forth.. as such.. that whole PvP thing, is not a problem for me.
However, role play. never seemed to jive with PvP. In Open world PvP games, I would go to the bank, and someone would pick-pocket me, if I caught them, I had a choice, I could attack them, or just deal with the lost money. Often times, I asked for my money back, and that ended in a fight.
That would end one of two ways, they either were far above my level and would kill me, or I would kill them and they would whine like the little brats they were to their guild/clan whatever, and all of a sudden I have a bunch of people trying to kill me..
That's not role play, that is not even conductive to a cooperative game, that is just bullies in a game environment where being a bully is rewarded.
So, tell me, what advantage is there to PvP in an MMO, outside, say Team Battles or some kind of Sport-Moba style fighting arena.
Sell me on why I would ever want to play a game with a bunch of gankers and bullies that can run around and kill me randomly?
PvP doesn't help in the standard vertical level and gear progression scheme because there isn't any good (logical) way to make pvp fair and competitive in those games. All you can do in those games is add Item Level or Gear Score (reflecting the actual power of any given character) and make it so that only people of an approximate gear score range could attack each other regardless of level. And you'd probably want to make it so that no one can kill anyone else multiple times in a row for no reason. Unless it was in some kind of open warfare, you'd probably want a cooldown timer of at least an hour before the same person could be killed again. Anyway, all that stuff does is make the game seem even more like just a game than it already does. So, really PvP probably doesn't belong in vertical level and gear progression games at all. Unless a lot of the game is instanced and you have instanced pvp with scenarios and goals beyond just killing each other.
Anyway, I have a thread here about how I would start to go about building a true role-playing game online. Check it out if you like.
Now, as to why PvP is useful for role-playing. What PvP, or at least the possibility of PvP does, is allow for player actions to effect and change the virtual world in countless ways beyond just killing each other. My idea is for an open world pvp, pve, realm vs realm sandbox mmorpg with multiple ways to progress a character without ever even having to fight a battle. I want players to be able build, destroy, or change all kinds of different things in the game world. Cooperation would be just as important as competition. If you've ever played an RTS game like Age of Empires or Starcraft, you might get a picture of what I'm talking about. But there are more details as to how I would go about it in another thread of mine here in this section.
EDIT: If pickpocketing is allowed, which I think it should be, it doesn't mean they're always able to steal all your money at once. Why would you have all your gold tied at your waist in one purse? Maybe you could hide some in a backpack too? Or maybe they just quickly dipped their fingers into a slightly open coin purse and filched a few coins out. And if you notice that someone robbed you (and you actually spot the person that did it), you should be able to report their name to a guard. Stealing is illegal in most places with any kind of law. If your living in a player-run town or city, you can ask players who might be guardsmen to help you track down the thief or do it for you.
You said:
"What PvP, or at least the possibility of PvP does, is allow for player actions to effect and change the virtual world in countless ways beyond just killing each other."
My retort: I have never seen this.
Open World PvP, has always been as pointless as killing NPC mobs, just, with the added boon of driving players away from the game.
There has never been a true role-playing game online, so of course, you've never seen it. Neither have I. But I'm pretty sure I know how to design one.
All kinds of things are possible if players are given more options for how they can interact with the environment, NPCs, and each other.
I wouldn't ask you or anyone to play pvp in any of the garbage that you can play now. I don't want to play pvp in any mmorpgs I know of that are currently available to play.
Just because something has always been one way before, it doesn't mean it can't be changed if different designs and systems are employed.
There is only ONE correct answer. There is NO FAIR WAY to implement PVP into an MMO. Someone will always have an advantage. Plus there is NEVER a "square-off" start. It ALWAYS starts with a "gank", Then the reaction. MMORPGs have NO NEED for PVP, also considering that it only comprises around 8% of the population, PVP only pushes away a far GREATER number of "care bears" that HATE IT!! So if devs want to include a PVP server, have at it. But STOP... FOR GODS SAKE!!!!!!!! ...trying to make a game to please everyone. ...did you hear that Pantheon????
There is no fair way to implement pvp into an mmorpg with vertical level and gear progression.
You still have not explained to me how PvP contributes to role play.
I used to play those Open-World-PvP Games, I still play MOBA's, so I have zero issues with facing off and killing or being killed by other players. I enjoyed WvW in GW2, I laid some serious siege in DAoC, so on and so forth.. as such.. that whole PvP thing, is not a problem for me.
However, role play. never seemed to jive with PvP. In Open world PvP games, I would go to the bank, and someone would pick-pocket me, if I caught them, I had a choice, I could attack them, or just deal with the lost money. Often times, I asked for my money back, and that ended in a fight.
That would end one of two ways, they either were far above my level and would kill me, or I would kill them and they would whine like the little brats they were to their guild/clan whatever, and all of a sudden I have a bunch of people trying to kill me..
That's not role play, that is not even conductive to a cooperative game, that is just bullies in a game environment where being a bully is rewarded.
So, tell me, what advantage is there to PvP in an MMO, outside, say Team Battles or some kind of Sport-Moba style fighting arena.
Sell me on why I would ever want to play a game with a bunch of gankers and bullies that can run around and kill me randomly?
PvP doesn't help in the standard vertical level and gear progression scheme because there isn't any good (logical) way to make pvp fair and competitive in those games. All you can do in those games is add Item Level or Gear Score (reflecting the actual power of any given character) and make it so that only people of an approximate gear score range could attack each other regardless of level. And you'd probably want to make it so that no one can kill anyone else multiple times in a row for no reason. Unless it was in some kind of open warfare, you'd probably want a cooldown timer of at least an hour before the same person could be killed again. Anyway, all that stuff does is make the game seem even more like just a game than it already does. So, really PvP probably doesn't belong in vertical level and gear progression games at all. Unless a lot of the game is instanced and you have instanced pvp with scenarios and goals beyond just killing each other.
Anyway, I have a thread here about how I would start to go about building a true role-playing game online. Check it out if you like.
Now, as to why PvP is useful for role-playing. What PvP, or at least the possibility of PvP does, is allow for player actions to effect and change the virtual world in countless ways beyond just killing each other. My idea is for an open world pvp, pve, realm vs realm sandbox mmorpg with multiple ways to progress a character without ever even having to fight a battle. I want players to be able build, destroy, or change all kinds of different things in the game world. Cooperation would be just as important as competition. If you've ever played an RTS game like Age of Empires or Starcraft, you might get a picture of what I'm talking about. But there are more details as to how I would go about it in another thread of mine here in this section.
EDIT: If pickpocketing is allowed, which I think it should be, it doesn't mean they're always able to steal all your money at once. Why would you have all your gold tied at your waist in one purse? Maybe you could hide some in a backpack too? Or maybe they just quickly dipped their fingers into a slightly open coin purse and filched a few coins out. And if you notice that someone robbed you (and you actually spot the person that did it), you should be able to report their name to a guard. Stealing is illegal in most places with any kind of law. If your living in a player-run town or city, you can ask players who might be guardsmen to help you track down the thief or do it for you.
You said:
"What PvP, or at least the possibility of PvP does, is allow for player actions to effect and change the virtual world in countless ways beyond just killing each other."
My retort: I have never seen this.
Open World PvP, has always been as pointless as killing NPC mobs, just, with the added boon of driving players away from the game.
There has never been a true role-playing game online, so of course, you've never seen it. Neither have I. But I'm pretty sure I know how to design one.
All kinds of things are possible if players are given more options for how they can interact with the environment, NPCs, and each other.
I wouldn't ask you or anyone to play pvp in any of the garbage that you can play now. I don't want to play pvp in any mmorpgs I know of that are currently available to play.
Just because something has always been one way before, it doesn't mean it can't be changed if different designs and systems are employed.
I'l agree with the idea that there is always a new way to look at things and make things happen, but to be very blunt, I am highly skeptical.
You still have not explained to me how PvP contributes to role play.
I used to play those Open-World-PvP Games, I still play MOBA's, so I have zero issues with facing off and killing or being killed by other players. I enjoyed WvW in GW2, I laid some serious siege in DAoC, so on and so forth.. as such.. that whole PvP thing, is not a problem for me.
However, role play. never seemed to jive with PvP. In Open world PvP games, I would go to the bank, and someone would pick-pocket me, if I caught them, I had a choice, I could attack them, or just deal with the lost money. Often times, I asked for my money back, and that ended in a fight.
That would end one of two ways, they either were far above my level and would kill me, or I would kill them and they would whine like the little brats they were to their guild/clan whatever, and all of a sudden I have a bunch of people trying to kill me..
That's not role play, that is not even conductive to a cooperative game, that is just bullies in a game environment where being a bully is rewarded.
So, tell me, what advantage is there to PvP in an MMO, outside, say Team Battles or some kind of Sport-Moba style fighting arena.
Sell me on why I would ever want to play a game with a bunch of gankers and bullies that can run around and kill me randomly?
PvP doesn't help in the standard vertical level and gear progression scheme because there isn't any good (logical) way to make pvp fair and competitive in those games. All you can do in those games is add Item Level or Gear Score (reflecting the actual power of any given character) and make it so that only people of an approximate gear score range could attack each other regardless of level. And you'd probably want to make it so that no one can kill anyone else multiple times in a row for no reason. Unless it was in some kind of open warfare, you'd probably want a cooldown timer of at least an hour before the same person could be killed again. Anyway, all that stuff does is make the game seem even more like just a game than it already does. So, really PvP probably doesn't belong in vertical level and gear progression games at all. Unless a lot of the game is instanced and you have instanced pvp with scenarios and goals beyond just killing each other.
Anyway, I have a thread here about how I would start to go about building a true role-playing game online. Check it out if you like.
Now, as to why PvP is useful for role-playing. What PvP, or at least the possibility of PvP does, is allow for player actions to effect and change the virtual world in countless ways beyond just killing each other. My idea is for an open world pvp, pve, realm vs realm sandbox mmorpg with multiple ways to progress a character without ever even having to fight a battle. I want players to be able build, destroy, or change all kinds of different things in the game world. Cooperation would be just as important as competition. If you've ever played an RTS game like Age of Empires or Starcraft, you might get a picture of what I'm talking about. But there are more details as to how I would go about it in another thread of mine here in this section.
EDIT: If pickpocketing is allowed, which I think it should be, it doesn't mean they're always able to steal all your money at once. Why would you have all your gold tied at your waist in one purse? Maybe you could hide some in a backpack too? Or maybe they just quickly dipped their fingers into a slightly open coin purse and filched a few coins out. And if you notice that someone robbed you (and you actually spot the person that did it), you should be able to report their name to a guard. Stealing is illegal in most places with any kind of law. If your living in a player-run town or city, you can ask players who might be guardsmen to help you track down the thief or do it for you.
You said:
"What PvP, or at least the possibility of PvP does, is allow for player actions to effect and change the virtual world in countless ways beyond just killing each other."
My retort: I have never seen this.
Open World PvP, has always been as pointless as killing NPC mobs, just, with the added boon of driving players away from the game.
There has never been a true role-playing game online, so of course, you've never seen it. Neither have I. But I'm pretty sure I know how to design one.
All kinds of things are possible if players are given more options for how they can interact with the environment, NPCs, and each other.
I wouldn't ask you or anyone to play pvp in any of the garbage that you can play now. I don't want to play pvp in any mmorpgs I know of that are currently available to play.
Just because something has always been one way before, it doesn't mean it can't be changed if different designs and systems are employed.
I'l agree with the idea that there is always a new way to look at things and make things happen, but to be very blunt, I am highly skeptical.
I have no problem with that. It won't be easy, but, in my opinion, if we ever want to play rpgs online that aren't basically soldier/mercenary simulators designed to be easy enough for children and teenagers, then we need to start thinking about making them more realistic and more reflective of how the real world works. Otherwise, I quit.
Comments
There is only ONE correct answer. There is NO FAIR WAY to implement PVP into an MMO. Someone will always have an advantage. Plus there is NEVER a "square-off" start. It ALWAYS starts with a "gank", Then the reaction. MMORPGs have NO NEED for PVP, also considering that it only comprises around 8% of the population, PVP only pushes away a far GREATER number of "care bears" that HATE IT!! So if devs want to include a PVP server, have at it. But STOP... FOR GODS SAKE!!!!!!!! ...trying to make a game to please everyone. ...did you hear that Pantheon????
There has never been a true role-playing game online, so of course, you've never seen it. Neither have I. But I'm pretty sure I know how to design one.
All kinds of things are possible if players are given more options for how they can interact with the environment, NPCs, and each other.
I wouldn't ask you or anyone to play pvp in any of the garbage that you can play now. I don't want to play pvp in any mmorpgs I know of that are currently available to play.
Just because something has always been one way before, it doesn't mean it can't be changed if different designs and systems are employed.
I'l agree with the idea that there is always a new way to look at things and make things happen, but to be very blunt, I am highly skeptical.