I understand perfectly. Do you? You keep responding after all.
No, I understand. You must have the last word. You must post in my thread and receive no response so that you can claim victory over my feeble inability to retort.
Well, maybe, I want to have the last word in my thread.
How long do you want to do this? A few hours? All night?
Not really no. I'm just questioning the ideas you've presented. Don't want people questioning you, don't post things on a forum. Simple as that. If you just want an echo chamber then just tell them to yourself.
As for how long. As long as it's interesting.
Doesn't sound like your done with me.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
You have this other thing where you think because you started the thread, you own the thread. You feel like you can tell people to leave, you think you deserve the last word in every discussion, and you actually respond to every single post, whether or not you have a good response.
I would also say that it is often viewed by experienced forum go-ers that allowing someone else the last word is often not "feeble." In fact, many view it as stength.
@DMKano - I believe that a historical or fantasy MMORPG such as I described would bring in a lot more players besides those that normally play MMORPGs. Especially if you added the sort of realism that I described in one of my other threads.
I know that you believe this, what you dont know is that you are wrong about this being a secret recipe for bringing in masses.
Over the past 15 years thousands of MMO designers have been evaluating all kind of scenarios for a winning MMO, this has been a collective effort of an entire global MMO industry.
Not to crush your hopes but everything you brought up in all of your threada has been considered already many times and has deemed not viable due to cost vs ROI, as well as many other reasons
You are not bringing up any new ideas, you are just one guy that is caught up in your own world of ideas seemingly completely unaware of video game industry designers and their past ideas.
My suggestion is to buy tickets to Pax Prime, go talk to actual veteran video game desingers and gain an understanding on what the actual constraints are when it comes to translating ideas into working code.
Might want to read some video game design books if you havent done so already
I know that you think you have the answers.... but you dont realize you really dont
This kind of thinking is the enemy of innovation. The assumption that better minds have already thought of these problems from all angles and already have the best solutions. If everyone thought like this we would still be tooless apes.
The fact is that gaming industry veterans such as Chris Roberts, Mark Jacobs, Todd Coleman, and Gordon Walton are seeing the need for change in this industry.
But I guess they're idiots because you listened to a couple of speeches by the people running a slowly dying MMO industry into the ground at Pax Prime.
It's not that they have the best solutions. Probably they don't. But they have allready confronted some of them and tried to find solutions.
Therefore they are aware of what many of the problems are that someone who is new is not aware of. That person who is new is not only not aware of many of the problems but is not aware of what has gone into trying to deal with them or even how to deal with them.
Once you are aware of the problem then you can find solutions and rather than recreating all the already tried solutions because you were not aware of what they have/have not tried you talk and learn from them.
What's been done before and why did or didn't it work?
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Obviously they don't have the best solutions. There hasn't been an engaging MMO published by a big company in the last 10 years.
They solved a lot of problems of older titles, but in doing so they robbed the entire MMO genre of it's soul. So now people who can see that, are looking back at the collective pile of crap that is the vast majority of the MMO industry and asking. "How can we fix this?"
And listening to the very people who destroyed this industry at Pax Prime isn't the first place to start looking for solutions. We're looking to people who actually made fun MMOs once upon a time and seeing what they think about the problem.
And that's while I'll throw hundreds of dollars at kickstarters I'm not fully confident in before I'll throw a single more dime at a game made by a company like Blizzard or EA that I know will fail to make a game engaging to anyone who wants, challenge, innovation, immersion or ROLEPLAY from their MMORPG.
I didn't advocate listening to only one group of people. The more information you can get often the better you will be.
I wish people would realize that what they don't like is not necessarily bad. Just because you don't find it engaging doesn't mean others don't.
Millions like Vanilla WoW, thought it was great. I didn't. That doesn't make it bad, doesn't' make it not immersive, doesn't make it not engaging, doesn't make it not fun. It just makes it none of those things to me.
What I like/don't like is not the standard or even correct.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I didn't advocate listening to only one group of people. The more information you can get often the better you will be.
I wish people would realize that what they don't like is not necessarily bad. Just because you don't find it engaging doesn't mean others don't.
Millions like Vanilla WoW, thought it was great. I didn't. That doesn't make it bad, doesn't' make it not immersive, doesn't make it not engaging, doesn't make it not fun. It just makes it none of those things to me.
What I like/don't like is not the standard or even correct.
The fact it is easy makes it not challenging. The fact you can't innovate by replicating old models makes every themepark since Everquest lack significant innovation. The fact you have to make a living breathing world for a game to be immersive makes games based on linear questlines that don't affect the world in any significant way non-immersive. The fact that 99% of the roleplay happening in themeparks hanging in taverns, and 95% of it is ERP means that themeparks are just as much role playing games as AoL chatrooms.
I suppose I should qualify that that disqualifies them from being engaging games to me, or anyone else who wants a challenge game or wants to be immersed in their RPGs.
There is a very specific demographic that caters to, and WoW has done an amazing job catering to their particular target market. I'll let you guess what the best way to describe that market is based on the fact they aren't looking to think about or be challenged by their games.
I like the idea of MMORPGs. I liked Runes of Magic until I got to endgame. But it was the first mmorpg I tried, so I didn't really know any better. It was harder than WoW, so when I tried WoW, I got bored. I liked EQ2 better than WoW and had fun for awhile, but endgame at lvl 95 killed it. Went from there to Neverwinter. Leveled two characters to 60 during mod 4, then quit after a week or so running campaigns. I could not stand to grind any longer. Tried many other mmorpgs in the meantime. Before and after I played EQ2 and NW. Never considered one fun enough to play for long. I went back to Neverwinter because I was bored and at least Neverwinter's action combat could be fun sometimes. Played on and off from 2014-2017. I have a 3.6k guardian fighter and a 2.5 trickster rogue, along with one level 70 of each class. Two GWFs though. My GF is actually over 4k if you count his legendary black dragon ioun stone augment companion. But I can't even bring myself to log in to that game anymore.
EVE sounds okay, but I don't like space exploration and warfare that much.
I may try Crowfall, Chronicles of Elyiria, and/or Life is Feudal. But I'll wait until after they're officially released.
Those things we can talk about. There hasn't really been very much innovation. Things are typically easier.
I don't argue about what makes things immersive, it is far too individual.
Some of them probably are looking to be challenged and raid/fight/whatever at the highest difficulty that has. Others are probably just looking at is as a break from the rest of the their life which might be intensely challenging and require a great deal of thinking. I don't pretend to know and it doesn't really matter.
I personally would like both. Sometimes I play EQ because I just want to grind in spot all day. Sometimes I will play swtor because I want a good story (then they offer double xp and kills it for me, ugh). Other times I want to build and will hop into Istaria to build a dragon lair or whatever I'm wanting to build. I want more choice, I hate being restricted. That goes for a game that doesn't have the quests as well.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
This what I can remember of a PM I sent to someone earlier. Someone I had never PMed to before. I've only ever PMed a handful of people. Anyway, here's basically how it went.
"I haven't been trying to fight with you. All I'm doing is pointing out what I think is wrong with most MMORPGs right now and how I believe they could be better. Maybe if enough people ask for a certain kind of game, it might get made someday. A game that I would actually
The problem is in the word "EXPERIENCE",what does it represent ,what does it mean and then you can see why 99% of the developers have not a clue to what they are doing building a RPG. Experience is a representation to one becoming better at their skill or trade.However in MOST rpg's it is a representation of nothing more than a number to gain levels.
A level could be construed as a measure of one's skill or trade but then why would your become a more skilled Warrior for doing some quest?If the quest was for example to test your mettle as a warrior or to learn a new weapon skill or to learn a special technique with a sword or axe then ok ,it is at least related to a Warrior's trade skill. However MOST quests have NOTHING to do with the traits or skills,even to the point some very lame mmorpg's simply give you a new level for moving from point A >point B.So WHY did my Warrior become a m ore skilled Warrior by simply walking 10 steps?Well as i already pointed out because most of these devs should not be making mmorpg's.
Then the icing on the cake,websites like this one and all the rest of them vying for advertising dollars are endorsing these crappy built games as being good to REALLY good mmorpg's,proving they also should not be in the business of critiquing mmorpg's either.It comes down to SIMPLE common sense...where is it?
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
We don't need to use the same kinds of progression systems over and over. Role-playing existed before UO, EQ, and WoW. Role-playing even existed before Dungeons & Dragons (first released commercially in 1974).
Kids have role-played with each other since long before computers were invented. Even before things like cars, corporations, the printing press, stockholders, investment firms, banks, and all kinds of other things were invented.
Just because one way of making an MMORPG was successful and popular at one time, it does not mean that that is the only to develop a successful, popular, and profitable MMORPG.
An MMORPG only has to have five characteristics to qualify as an MMORPG:
Massively Multi-player Online Role- Playing Game
Most games that claim to be in this genre are lacking significantly in the most important characteristic. Role-playing.
If we claim that all these games out there are role-playing, then we might as well claim that every single game or video game ever created since the dawn of time is role-playing.
The problem is in the word "EXPERIENCE",what does it represent ,what does it mean and then you can see why 99% of the developers have not a clue to what they are doing building a RPG. Experience is a representation to one becoming better at their skill or trade.However in MOST rpg's it is a representation of nothing more than a number to gain levels.
A level could be construed as a measure of one's skill or trade but then why would your become a more skilled Warrior for doing some quest?If the quest was for example to test your mettle as a warrior or to learn a new weapon skill or to learn a special technique with a sword or axe then ok ,it is at least related to a Warrior's trade skill. However MOST quests have NOTHING to do with the traits or skills,even to the point some very lame mmorpg's simply give you a new level for moving from point A >point B.So WHY did my Warrior become a m ore skilled Warrior by simply walking 10 steps?Well as i already pointed out because most of these devs should not be making mmorpg's.
Then the icing on the cake,websites like this one and all the rest of them vying for advertising dollars are endorsing these crappy built games as being good to REALLY good mmorpg's,proving they also should not be in the business of critiquing mmorpg's either.It comes down to SIMPLE common sense...where is it?
I remember when WoW had weapon skills nothing was more fun than getting a sweet two handed sword and not being able to hit anything because all I had used was axes up to that point.
by golly it sure was fun running back to Elwynn Forest to grind boars for 4 hours to increase my weapon skill. . .
/takes off rose colored glasses
what am I saying, I thought that was crap game design then and I still do now.
Look what the 2nd Edition Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook says about the Warrior group of classes:
"Warrior
The warrior group encompasses the character classes of heroes who make their way in
the world primarily by skill at arms: fighters, paladins, and rangers.
Warriors are allowed to use any weapon. They can wear any type of armor."
Not saying a weapon proficiency system can't be used. However, as far as warriors go, a proficiency would just mean they are better at using that weapon than other weapons.
The funny part is many on these boards have argued with me that the defining aspect of a roleplaying game is levels and that if you take levels and grinding away it ceases to be an RPG.
It's like they have no clue where the term "role-playing" originally came from. Except they must have some clue because roleplayers and roleplaying are despised in many of these communities.
Things like being able to pick the gender and race of you character actually criticised as fluff in some communities. Like how can picking important aspects of your own character ever be fluff? Trying to fill a role in the community and help others is seen as a less legitimate or important playstyle than a singular focus on getting the highest gearscore.
And then people tell me I am the one who doesn't like MMORPGs because I want to move away from stat disparity? No. The main MMOs on the market today have no right to call themselves roleplaying games.
It's not about immersion. It's not about building authentic worlds where you can really step into the shoes of your characters. It's about grinding, grinding, grinding, and more grinding. And maybe if the game has PvP you can abuse other people who have lives once you are done grinding.
This post has now gotten lost in another thread, but I believe it's one of the most important points I can make to developers and investors. I actually said something very similar in another thread last year.
If developers want to get rich making an MMORPG, let me explain how. Try doing something that's never been done before. Offer something new. Great inventors and innovators don't simply recycle old ideas and place a few new bells and whistles on them. What they do is offer something the rejects the status quo. Offer something that people may not know they want, perhaps not think they want, or possibly not believe they want. (Maybe they never even thought considered it possible). People may even be repulsed by the idea at first. However, often, when people (gamers, customers, consumers, etc.) have the chance to sample this new, innovative invention or design, they may just immediately recognize that it is superior to what they have come to previously enjoy, tolerate, or even just settle for.
This post has now gotten lost in another thread, but I believe it's one of the most important points I can make to developers and investors. I actually said something very similar in another thread last year.
If developers want to get rich making an MMORPG, let me explain how. Try doing something that's never been done before. Offer something new. Great inventors and innovators don't simply recycle old ideas and place a few new bells and whistles on them. What they do is offer something the rejects the status quo. Offer something that people may not know they want, perhaps not think they want, or possibly not believe they want. (Maybe they never even thought considered it possible). People may even be repulsed by the idea at first. However, often, when people (gamers, customers, consumers, etc.) have the chance to sample this new, innovative invention or design, they may just immediately recognize that it is superior to what they have come to previously enjoy, tolerate, or even just settle for.
WoW such words of wisdom, I have never read such a divine proclamation.
I feel safe in saying that we, the MMORPG.COM forum community, are so blessed to even be in the presence of such intellect.
I feel that this post should be shouted from the rooftops of every city so that all game developers may know such insight!
Comments
Because I'm done with you. Do you understand that or not?
Well, maybe, I want to have the last word in my thread.
How long do you want to do this? A few hours? All night?
As for how long. As long as it's interesting.
Doesn't sound like your done with me.
I would also say that it is often viewed by experienced forum go-ers that allowing someone else the last word is often not "feeble." In fact, many view it as stength.
This kind of thinking is the enemy of innovation. The assumption that better minds have already thought of these problems from all angles and already have the best solutions. If everyone thought like this we would still be tooless apes.
The fact is that gaming industry veterans such as Chris Roberts, Mark Jacobs, Todd Coleman, and Gordon Walton are seeing the need for change in this industry.
But I guess they're idiots because you listened to a couple of speeches by the people running a slowly dying MMO industry into the ground at Pax Prime.
Therefore they are aware of what many of the problems are that someone who is new is not aware of. That person who is new is not only not aware of many of the problems but is not aware of what has gone into trying to deal with them or even how to deal with them.
Once you are aware of the problem then you can find solutions and rather than recreating all the already tried solutions because you were not aware of what they have/have not tried you talk and learn from them.
What's been done before and why did or didn't it work?
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
They solved a lot of problems of older titles, but in doing so they robbed the entire MMO genre of it's soul. So now people who can see that, are looking back at the collective pile of crap that is the vast majority of the MMO industry and asking. "How can we fix this?"
And listening to the very people who destroyed this industry at Pax Prime isn't the first place to start looking for solutions. We're looking to people who actually made fun MMOs once upon a time and seeing what they think about the problem.
And that's while I'll throw hundreds of dollars at kickstarters I'm not fully confident in before I'll throw a single more dime at a game made by a company like Blizzard or EA that I know will fail to make a game engaging to anyone who wants, challenge, innovation, immersion or ROLEPLAY from their MMORPG.
I wish people would realize that what they don't like is not necessarily bad. Just because you don't find it engaging doesn't mean others don't.
Millions like Vanilla WoW, thought it was great. I didn't. That doesn't make it bad, doesn't' make it not immersive, doesn't make it not engaging, doesn't make it not fun. It just makes it none of those things to me.
What I like/don't like is not the standard or even correct.
Rise of Agon probably isn't terrible either.
The fact it is easy makes it not challenging. The fact you can't innovate by replicating old models makes every themepark since Everquest lack significant innovation. The fact you have to make a living breathing world for a game to be immersive makes games based on linear questlines that don't affect the world in any significant way non-immersive. The fact that 99% of the roleplay happening in themeparks hanging in taverns, and 95% of it is ERP means that themeparks are just as much role playing games as AoL chatrooms.
I suppose I should qualify that that disqualifies them from being engaging games to me, or anyone else who wants a challenge game or wants to be immersed in their RPGs.
There is a very specific demographic that caters to, and WoW has done an amazing job catering to their particular target market. I'll let you guess what the best way to describe that market is based on the fact they aren't looking to think about or be challenged by their games.
I like the idea of MMORPGs. I liked Runes of Magic until I got to endgame. But it was the first mmorpg I tried, so I didn't really know any better. It was harder than WoW, so when I tried WoW, I got bored. I liked EQ2 better than WoW and had fun for awhile, but endgame at lvl 95 killed it. Went from there to Neverwinter. Leveled two characters to 60 during mod 4, then quit after a week or so running campaigns. I could not stand to grind any longer. Tried many other mmorpgs in the meantime. Before and after I played EQ2 and NW. Never considered one fun enough to play for long. I went back to Neverwinter because I was bored and at least Neverwinter's action combat could be fun sometimes. Played on and off from 2014-2017. I have a 3.6k guardian fighter and a 2.5 trickster rogue, along with one level 70 of each class. Two GWFs though. My GF is actually over 4k if you count his legendary black dragon ioun stone augment companion. But I can't even bring myself to log in to that game anymore.
EVE sounds okay, but I don't like space exploration and warfare that much.
I may try Crowfall, Chronicles of Elyiria, and/or Life is Feudal. But I'll wait until after they're officially released.
I don't argue about what makes things immersive, it is far too individual.
Some of them probably are looking to be challenged and raid/fight/whatever at the highest difficulty that has. Others are probably just looking at is as a break from the rest of the their life which might be intensely challenging and require a great deal of thinking. I don't pretend to know and it doesn't really matter.
I personally would like both. Sometimes I play EQ because I just want to grind in spot all day. Sometimes I will play swtor because I want a good story (then they offer double xp and kills it for me, ugh). Other times I want to build and will hop into Istaria to build a dragon lair or whatever I'm wanting to build. I want more choice, I hate being restricted. That goes for a game that doesn't have the quests as well.
like to play."
Experience is a representation to one becoming better at their skill or trade.However in MOST rpg's it is a representation of nothing more than a number to gain levels.
A level could be construed as a measure of one's skill or trade but then why would your become a more skilled Warrior for doing some quest?If the quest was for example to test your mettle as a warrior or to learn a new weapon skill or to learn a special technique with a sword or axe then ok ,it is at least related to a Warrior's trade skill.
However MOST quests have NOTHING to do with the traits or skills,even to the point some very lame mmorpg's simply give you a new level for moving from point A >point B.So WHY did my Warrior become a m ore skilled Warrior by simply walking 10 steps?Well as i already pointed out because most of these devs should not be making mmorpg's.
Then the icing on the cake,websites like this one and all the rest of them vying for advertising dollars are endorsing these crappy built games as being good to REALLY good mmorpg's,proving they also should not be in the business of critiquing mmorpg's either.It comes down to SIMPLE common sense...where is it?
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Kids have role-played with each other since long before computers were invented. Even before things like cars, corporations, the printing press, stockholders, investment firms, banks, and all kinds of other things were invented.
Just because one way of making an MMORPG was successful and popular at one time, it does not mean that that is the only to develop a successful, popular, and profitable MMORPG.
An MMORPG only has to have five characteristics to qualify as an MMORPG:
Massively
Multi-player
Online
Role-
Playing
Game
Most games that claim to be in this genre are lacking significantly in the most important characteristic. Role-playing.
If we claim that all these games out there are role-playing, then we might as well claim that every single game or video game ever created since the dawn of time is role-playing.
I remember when WoW had weapon skills nothing was more fun than getting a sweet two handed sword and not being able to hit anything because all I had used was axes up to that point.
by golly it sure was fun running back to Elwynn Forest to grind boars for 4 hours to increase my weapon skill. . .
/takes off rose colored glasses
what am I saying, I thought that was crap game design then and I still do now.
Not saying a weapon proficiency system can't be used. However, as far as warriors go, a proficiency would just mean they are better at using that weapon than other weapons.
It's like they have no clue where the term "role-playing" originally came from. Except they must have some clue because roleplayers and roleplaying are despised in many of these communities.
Things like being able to pick the gender and race of you character actually criticised as fluff in some communities. Like how can picking important aspects of your own character ever be fluff? Trying to fill a role in the community and help others is seen as a less legitimate or important playstyle than a singular focus on getting the highest gearscore.
And then people tell me I am the one who doesn't like MMORPGs because I want to move away from stat disparity? No. The main MMOs on the market today have no right to call themselves roleplaying games.
It's not about immersion. It's not about building authentic worlds where you can really step into the shoes of your characters. It's about grinding, grinding, grinding, and more grinding. And maybe if the game has PvP you can abuse other people who have lives once you are done grinding.
If developers want to get rich making an MMORPG, let me explain how. Try doing something that's never been done before. Offer something new. Great inventors and innovators don't simply recycle old ideas and place a few new bells and whistles on them. What they do is offer something the rejects the status quo. Offer something that people may not know they want, perhaps not think they want, or possibly not believe they want. (Maybe they never even thought considered it possible). People may even be repulsed by the idea at first. However, often, when people (gamers, customers, consumers, etc.) have the chance to sample this new, innovative invention or design, they may just immediately recognize that it is superior to what they have come to previously enjoy, tolerate, or even just settle for.
WoW such words of wisdom, I have never read such a divine proclamation.
I feel safe in saying that we, the MMORPG.COM forum community, are so blessed to even be in the presence of such intellect.
I feel that this post should be shouted from the rooftops of every city so that all game developers may know such insight!