I suppose I must be one of those shallow people that SWTOR appealed to. I enjoyed the game and raised may be every class and played through the stories and it was fun. I really liked the game and truly enjoyed it and I think other people did too. The game was busy enough and I found groups when I last played it a few years ago. It may have declined now but I have no actual knowledge of that.
Some of us believe there is no really good themepark mmorpg, and no way to make one. Certainly no great themepark mmorpgs. That is an impossibility in my opinion.
My real and unadulterated view on themepark mmorpgs is the following: they ran their course and hit their peak with Everquest, Everquest 2, and Vanilla World of Warcraft.
I 100% agree from my perspective. The best a themepark can hope to achieve from my perspective is "tollerable for awhile."
There are a lot of people who really love themeparks though, so in a market devoid of themeparks there would be a demand for a good themepark.
The market is not devoid of themeparks. It isn't devoid of themeparks that are pretty good for themeparks. 95%+ of the market space for a themepark requires cannibalizing the market of older and more established themeparks.
And that is why I say a market for themeparks no longer exists, and SWTOR is an example of what not to do. If SWTOR couldn't succeed with the Star Wars IP and a 200 million dollar budget back then, nobody will succeed going against WoW, SWTOR, Rift, ESO etc.
The market space is gone, and it will be a long time before it ever opens up enough to make a themepark practical again.
Some of us believe there is no really good themepark mmorpg, and no way to make one. Certainly no great themepark mmorpgs. That is an impossibility in my opinion.
My real and unadulterated view on themepark mmorpgs is the following: they ran their course and hit their peak with Everquest, Everquest 2, and Vanilla World of Warcraft.
I 100% agree from my perspective. The best a themepark can hope to achieve from my perspective is "tollerable for awhile."
There are a lot of people who really love themeparks though, so in a market devoid of themeparks there would be a demand for a good themepark.
The market is not devoid of themeparks. It isn't devoid of themeparks that are pretty good for themeparks. 95%+ of the market space for a themepark requires cannibalizing the market of older and more established themeparks.
And that is why I say a market for themeparks no longer exists, and SWTOR is an example of what not to do. If SWTOR couldn't succeed with the Star Wars IP and a 200 million dollar budget back then, nobody will succeed going against WoW, SWTOR, Rift, ESO etc.
The market space is gone, and it will be a long time before it ever opens up enough to make a themepark practical again.
OK, so my rough guesstimate of the market size for MMOs is about 50 million gamers worldwide. It is dominated by about 15 big/high profile MMOs with, I think, WoW and Lineage topping the active player count. Its a pretty damn big market with not that many games, and even worse not that much diversity.
To me, that screams market opportunity! I don't even feel like there are many good themeparks, most seem pretty sub-par having copied features from previous games and usually implementing them worse.
There is also absolutely nothing wrong with creating a themepark MMO. The only design flaw that you can never conquer with a pure themepark is the reliance on developer made content. Everything else can be overcome through better design or by going hybrid and having both themepark and sandbox features - just like most themeparks do anyway by including pvp and having player economies.
SW:TOR is also not proof that the market for themeparks has collapsed. It is proof that Bioware / EA shouldn't make MMOs. SW:TOR sold 2 million copies in it's first month, a pretty impressive achievement for any genre, let alone a niche one like MMOs. Doesn't that show you there is a strong appetite for a Star Wars MMO? Just because most people found it shit, doesn't mean the market isn't there.
In addition, ESO has done extremely well. Granted, it's initial PC release didn't do great but when combined with console sales I believe they're somewhere in the region of 5-7 million box sales worldwide. Pretty damn good considering the games initial problems.
For the record, I am all about the hybrids. I love the sandbox nature of pvp, territory control, building stuff in the real world and full player economies, but I also love dungeons and raids. The last good themepark I played was LotRO - its combat system and group mechanics added more depth to combat than I've seen in any other game, it had horizontal progression at endgame, it had great scripted group content and the ettenmoors gave me some awesome pvp. Sadly, each expansion made the game worse but meh, was great at release.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr80 Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr5X Shaman
@Cameltosis - In the early part of your argument you are suggesting a large market with a small number of dominant firms is a market of opportunity. I that case the world is filled with opportunity now because thats what you see with supermarkets, the soda industry, automobiles etc. etc. etc. Except in those markets small companies can succeed more easily because the enjoyment of the product is less dependent other people using the same product. In the MMO industry you require a massive amount of players to make your massively multiplayer game actually work properly.
The truth is a good market to get into from the standpoint of a startup firm is one where demand exceeds supply.
I feel like what you are saying in the later parts of your argument is you want to make a themepark so different from a themepark that it would be difficult to classify as a themepark. In that case I might agree. If you radically alter what it means to be a themepark then I would argue the "hybrid" classification is a better descriptor for your game than "themepark" though.
Coming back to my argument that there is no market space for new themeparks in 2017
There is no secret as why why Swtor failed as an mmorpg. The engine is crap. It's development history was one of bloated overspending and bad management pre-EA buyout. I have no love for EA but they brought the hammer down hard to clean up the mess but the damage was done.
The game's development from day 1 was hindered by the engine. It couldn't perform and every single design choice that followed was geared toward limiting player interactions at large scale. This killed Swtor as a traditional mmorpg it was trying to emulate.
Everything that followed (the change in game design and cash shop abuse) was a result of it's initial failing ... the engine.
Next to WoW, SWTOR is the only other "MMORPG" I have reached max level in. And yet I don't really consider it an MMORPG. There was nothing massive or multiplayer about it from my point of view. It was a single player game entirely. It really liked my class story as a Jedi Consular but didn't really care for the expansions. I now have no interest to play.
I agree the worlds were very limited, despite feeling like there was so much more to them. I feel like most of the resources were devoted towards voice and animation with not enough devoted to making their worlds expansive or accessible. That, and everything was so instanced off from everything. It was like Tortage in Age of Conan. Tortage was great, but after Tortage the game felt disappointing. Age of Conan didn't really feel like an MMO either. Age of Conan was beautiful, especially Tarantia or whatever the main city was. But that was a single player game too.
WAR felt like an MMORPG but it was missing crucial things.
Now I'm back on WoW. Or I was until they stupidly timegated the rest of the content.
@Cameltosis - In the early part of your argument you are suggesting a large market with a small number of dominant firms is a market of opportunity. I that case the world is filled with opportunity now because thats what you see with supermarkets, the soda industry, automobiles etc. etc. etc. Except in those markets small companies can succeed more easily because the enjoyment of the product is less dependent other people using the same product. In the MMO industry you require a massive amount of players to make your massively multiplayer game actually work properly.
The truth is a good market to get into from the standpoint of a startup firm is one where demand exceeds supply.
I feel like what you are saying in the later parts of your argument is you want to make a themepark so different from a themepark that it would be difficult to classify as a themepark. In that case I might agree. If you radically alter what it means to be a themepark then I would argue the "hybrid" classification is a better descriptor for your game than "themepark" though.
Coming back to my argument that there is no market space for new themeparks in 2017
Well, I believe demand does exceed supply within the MMO market space. There are a lot of gamers and not that many games, it's dominated by a small group of MMOs and there are a lot of clones.
So, I personally don't think it would take much to build a good themepark MMO, even if you stuck to the WoW formula for features, and I think there is still enough interest for the game to be a success.
Once you leave the WoW formula behind, you are entering somewhat untested waters so there is more risk, but also more opportunity. With games like Destiny and The Division, we know there is a strong appetite for always-online games with progression in the console crowd so should be easy to take a console IP and convert to an MMO.
Just as a quick example: Gears of War Online. Combat could be pretty much the same as the existing games, but add a small toolbar like ESO or something. Make it open world. For your pve, you've got all the great monsters to take on and wouldn't take much to create some great open world content, dungeons and raids. For PvP, well, its post-apocalyptic, lots of gangs and scavengers about. Add in some base building mechanics so guilds can create their own encampments and stuff.
I imagine a game like this would sell extremely well. You have a massive existing fanbase to tap into, plus the MMO world. You have a nice mix of themepark and sandbox options. The combat would be recognisable to existing fans, so it would be very accessible. It would be a sci-fi shooter MMO, so basically no existing competition.
The console world is absolutely full of awesome IPs that have yet to be exploited within the MMO space. You'd expand the MMO market by converting console players, you'd diversify the genre with different feature sets and combat systems. Happy days!
I will *almost* agree with your final statement. The problem with modern themeparks is differentiating yourself from the competitors. In order to attract a large playerbase and make the game successful, you either need to steal players from other games or attract new gamers to the market. To steal from other games means making a superior game, which can be hard, especially if you're following the same formula and attracting new gamers is often about the IP and marketing. I do still believe it is possible, and I do think there is a strong enough market for it.
(having said all that, whilst I believe the market is there, I don't have any faith in the studios. publishers are too risk averse to invest in new ideas. I don't expect a good AAA MMORPG to release anytime soon).
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr80 Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr5X Shaman
Comments
I 100% agree from my perspective. The best a themepark can hope to achieve from my perspective is "tollerable for awhile."
There are a lot of people who really love themeparks though, so in a market devoid of themeparks there would be a demand for a good themepark.
The market is not devoid of themeparks. It isn't devoid of themeparks that are pretty good for themeparks. 95%+ of the market space for a themepark requires cannibalizing the market of older and more established themeparks.
And that is why I say a market for themeparks no longer exists, and SWTOR is an example of what not to do. If SWTOR couldn't succeed with the Star Wars IP and a 200 million dollar budget back then, nobody will succeed going against WoW, SWTOR, Rift, ESO etc.
The market space is gone, and it will be a long time before it ever opens up enough to make a themepark practical again.
OK, so my rough guesstimate of the market size for MMOs is about 50 million gamers worldwide. It is dominated by about 15 big/high profile MMOs with, I think, WoW and Lineage topping the active player count. Its a pretty damn big market with not that many games, and even worse not that much diversity.
To me, that screams market opportunity! I don't even feel like there are many good themeparks, most seem pretty sub-par having copied features from previous games and usually implementing them worse.
There is also absolutely nothing wrong with creating a themepark MMO. The only design flaw that you can never conquer with a pure themepark is the reliance on developer made content. Everything else can be overcome through better design or by going hybrid and having both themepark and sandbox features - just like most themeparks do anyway by including pvp and having player economies.
SW:TOR is also not proof that the market for themeparks has collapsed. It is proof that Bioware / EA shouldn't make MMOs. SW:TOR sold 2 million copies in it's first month, a pretty impressive achievement for any genre, let alone a niche one like MMOs. Doesn't that show you there is a strong appetite for a Star Wars MMO? Just because most people found it shit, doesn't mean the market isn't there.
In addition, ESO has done extremely well. Granted, it's initial PC release didn't do great but when combined with console sales I believe they're somewhere in the region of 5-7 million box sales worldwide. Pretty damn good considering the games initial problems.
For the record, I am all about the hybrids. I love the sandbox nature of pvp, territory control, building stuff in the real world and full player economies, but I also love dungeons and raids. The last good themepark I played was LotRO - its combat system and group mechanics added more depth to combat than I've seen in any other game, it had horizontal progression at endgame, it had great scripted group content and the ettenmoors gave me some awesome pvp. Sadly, each expansion made the game worse but meh, was great at release.
The truth is a good market to get into from the standpoint of a startup firm is one where demand exceeds supply.
I feel like what you are saying in the later parts of your argument is you want to make a themepark so different from a themepark that it would be difficult to classify as a themepark. In that case I might agree. If you radically alter what it means to be a themepark then I would argue the "hybrid" classification is a better descriptor for your game than "themepark" though.
Coming back to my argument that there is no market space for new themeparks in 2017
The game's development from day 1 was hindered by the engine. It couldn't perform and every single design choice that followed was geared toward limiting player interactions at large scale. This killed Swtor as a traditional mmorpg it was trying to emulate.
Everything that followed (the change in game design and cash shop abuse) was a result of it's initial failing ... the engine.
You stay sassy!
I agree the worlds were very limited, despite feeling like there was so much more to them. I feel like most of the resources were devoted towards voice and animation with not enough devoted to making their worlds expansive or accessible. That, and everything was so instanced off from everything. It was like Tortage in Age of Conan. Tortage was great, but after Tortage the game felt disappointing. Age of Conan didn't really feel like an MMO either. Age of Conan was beautiful, especially Tarantia or whatever the main city was. But that was a single player game too.
WAR felt like an MMORPG but it was missing crucial things.
Now I'm back on WoW. Or I was until they stupidly timegated the rest of the content.
Well, I believe demand does exceed supply within the MMO market space. There are a lot of gamers and not that many games, it's dominated by a small group of MMOs and there are a lot of clones.
So, I personally don't think it would take much to build a good themepark MMO, even if you stuck to the WoW formula for features, and I think there is still enough interest for the game to be a success.
Once you leave the WoW formula behind, you are entering somewhat untested waters so there is more risk, but also more opportunity. With games like Destiny and The Division, we know there is a strong appetite for always-online games with progression in the console crowd so should be easy to take a console IP and convert to an MMO.
Just as a quick example: Gears of War Online. Combat could be pretty much the same as the existing games, but add a small toolbar like ESO or something. Make it open world. For your pve, you've got all the great monsters to take on and wouldn't take much to create some great open world content, dungeons and raids. For PvP, well, its post-apocalyptic, lots of gangs and scavengers about. Add in some base building mechanics so guilds can create their own encampments and stuff.
I imagine a game like this would sell extremely well. You have a massive existing fanbase to tap into, plus the MMO world. You have a nice mix of themepark and sandbox options. The combat would be recognisable to existing fans, so it would be very accessible. It would be a sci-fi shooter MMO, so basically no existing competition.
The console world is absolutely full of awesome IPs that have yet to be exploited within the MMO space. You'd expand the MMO market by converting console players, you'd diversify the genre with different feature sets and combat systems. Happy days!
I will *almost* agree with your final statement. The problem with modern themeparks is differentiating yourself from the competitors. In order to attract a large playerbase and make the game successful, you either need to steal players from other games or attract new gamers to the market. To steal from other games means making a superior game, which can be hard, especially if you're following the same formula and attracting new gamers is often about the IP and marketing. I do still believe it is possible, and I do think there is a strong enough market for it.
(having said all that, whilst I believe the market is there, I don't have any faith in the studios. publishers are too risk averse to invest in new ideas. I don't expect a good AAA MMORPG to release anytime soon).