One of the largest whales in CoE turns on the blatant P2W scheme and asks for changes

Slapshot1188

Wow... you KNOW you are doing something wrong when the guy who has literally given you tens of thousands of dollars is saying things like the below excerpts: 

The selling of rare / legendary / etc things in the EP store for lots of money, then claiming that specifically the research and buildings are research and buildings that a normal non-paying player would not be able to build / reach for a year - two years is turning a surmountable advantage into an insurmountable advantage.

With the latest plans for the EP store we flipped that on its head and said that not only will the people with the most money have the most influence / assets available to them when they get in game, but now they will have further access to rare / high quality materials, buildings, research and the like that make them completely insurmountable for a year possibly two years. 

 If the EP store stays as it is, I can not blame anyone for not wanting to be on the same server as Vornair or Ghettomaster. We have all of the potential to grab up the majority of these high quality / rarity cash grabs from the EP store (sorry Caspian I can't see it as anything other than that at this current moment), and snowball all of those insurmountable advantages to be head and shoulders above any other community on our server.

How many people did we just kick in the arse away from this game because they now feel like they cant afford to be competitive and achieve their dreams / win condition for this game simply because they didnt have enough money. 

From a marketing standpoint to do anything else is to absolutely invite people to look at your game as hugely P2W, which it always has been to an extent but it was surmountable so I accepted the explanation of the studio. Pushing that scale of P2W to insurmountable will not bode well for this game in the current market.
Additionally the marketing folly that comes back into play is that with limited time rare / high quality items on the store and the ability to gift them, you just asked for a grey market RMT to be set up. We have dealt with fall out regarding this multiple times now, the answer from the devs was that we would create mechanics in the game that deter any point or any gains to be made by RMT, then upon the announcement of what will be available in the EP store the studio literally made the biggest, easiest case for someone to set up a RMT site and make great gains on it.

Again, rant over, but these are legitimate concerns that can no longer be answered with a simple "But they can be taken from you." My answer to that is, if things stay this way, good luck trying to take any of the advantages away from a group like mine. I can confidently say that these advantages in the hands of my group will equate to a completely insurmountable Kingdom in literally any and every aspect that we choose to go with. If that is a problem with me, it should be a problem with you too.


https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/19362/new-ep-store-policies


BRAVO!!!

When we said this over and over some of the hardcore fans reflexively had to defend.  Now that arguably the biggest CoE supporter in the world is calling these essentially gamebreaking P2W maybe the arrogant developers will listen.

Wellspring

I'm interested to see how Caspian responds.

Gaendric

Guess even the biggest spenders are starting to realize that all the money put in is wasted if the game turns into an empty husk after a month and they have spent it all to have an advantage over noone on an empty server. 

You can only push P2W so far before it starts backfiring (especially in a PvP focussed game with territory control) and people start quitting due to having to play on an extremely uneven playing field. 
The thing that would really surprise me is if someone is actually surprised.

RemyVorender

The more I see of this game's business model, the more I hope it burns. 

Distopia

coretex666 said:

There are just so many variables at this point that this sort of discussion is completely worthless, in my opinion.

It should be noted that there is no game. 

Do they have the funding to complete this game? I do not think they disclosed how they are funding the game besides a kickstarter for an insignificant amount of money comparing to the budget needed to complete it.

Even if they do have the funding, are they going to finish the game?

If they are, is the game going to be any good?

Is it going to attract enough players for the game to be enjoyable?

If it is, are they able to retain those players?


I understand why people who donated tens of thousands of dollars feel entitled to comment on the development of the game, but in reality, they have zero influence over the project or any actual rights.

Making a donation does not make you an investor. You can only hope that the developers stick to their vision, timelines, etc. If they dont, too bad for you.

I find it funny that we have number of projects nowadays without disclosed development milestones / timelines to which people donated millions of dollars without getting any guarantee that they will be finished or that they will not be significantly changed before they are released.

Imagine how these people will cry if the game is cancelled. 


The guy is complaining that a game the monetization of which is pretty much based on the concept that you can buy tremendous ingame advantages for real money is now becoming "Pay to Win" for christsakes.

I have to agree with most that you said here. It's also a bit ironic if this guy is considered a whale for buying a kingdom or something like that and then turns around and complains about the lesser forms of P2H in the game. That's what's going to turn people off? Yet not folks like the OP of said complaint? If he's against this he should stand strongly against how it came to this. Money for power in COE started with folks like him. The slippery slope is already slippery. Have a nice ride...

Azaron_Nightblade

I can only shake my head at this.

Then again, maybe it's a good thing, and it'll make people think for a second in the future before labeling each KR MMO P2W automatically, while claiming no western devs would ever go there, lulz.

This one blatantly surpasses the vast majority of KR MMOs if this is as bad as it sounds.

MadFrenchie

coretex666 said:

The guy is complaining that a game the monetization of which is pretty much based on the concept that you can buy tremendous ingame advantages for real money is now becoming "Pay to Win" for christsakes.

I have to agree with this.  He mentions that he was fine with the P2W when it was "surmountable."  This guy doesn't want it too easy, but he doesn't want it level, either.  He wants it right in the sweet spot where it's like he's starting a campaign of Rome: Total War with the Romans at the height of their power.

I'm conflicted.  On one hand, I find buying advantages in a competitive game disgusting.  On the other, he seems to put the perceived health of the game over his own desires to buy power.  So I begrudgingly feel for the guy.

Slapshot1188

MadFrenchie said:

coretex666 said:

The guy is complaining that a game the monetization of which is pretty much based on the concept that you can buy tremendous ingame advantages for real money is now becoming "Pay to Win" for christsakes.

I have to agree with this.  He mentions that he was fine with the P2W when it was "surmountable."  This guy doesn't want it too easy, but he doesn't want it level, either.  He wants it right in the sweet spot where it's like he's starting a campaign of Rome: Total War with the Romans at the height of their power.

I'm conflicted.  On one hand, I find buying advantages in a competitive game disgusting.  On the other, he seems to put the perceived health of the game over his own desires to buy power.  So I begrudgingly feel for the guy.

Yes, my whole point was that when even THIS GUY (who paid tens of thousands of dollars and is getting insane in game advantages) says it's gone too far, it should be a huge wake-up call to the developers who arrogantly dismissed all P2W arguments and even tried to rename this is Pay To Build.. LOL.

Distopia

MadFrenchie said:

 he seems to put the perceived health of the game over his own desires to buy power.  So I begrudgingly feel for the guy.

HAHA, He only cares about the health of the game so he has people to conquer, it's all about him living out his "10thousand dollar" power trip of a wet dream. 

SpottyGekko

coretex666 said:

...

It should be noted that there is no game. 

...

At this rate, there possibly may never be !


There is however a fully functional Cash Shop that appears to be expanding every other week...

And a never-ending stream of controversy that's highly entertaining !

Wizardry

Without getting into specifics,i thought it was already common sense that most realize,cash shops are a terrible addition to gaming.It seems we are finding new ways or new ideas popup to reconfirm it but do we really need more proof?
The very premise that some developer claims their game is actually FREE is deceiving enough and proves they are not a trustworthy business.One of the biggest lamest perpetrators was Kings isle,claiming a free to play game yet you couldn't get past the few noob zones without paying,to me stuff like that is blatant lying.

That is actually the very sad problem that exists in gaming right now,tons of deception,lying,misleading crap to make a sale.Game developers have become worse than a used car salesman.
I should NEVER see any game item available only to those that are willing to give added money over other players.I treat gaming like sports,i want a level playing field and nothing more or less.

Dvora

Azaron_Nightblade said:

I can only shake my head at this.

Then again, maybe it's a good thing, and it'll make people think for a second in the future before labeling each KR MMO P2W automatically, while claiming no western devs would ever go there, lulz.

This one blatantly surpasses the vast majority of KR MMOs if this is as bad as it sounds.

Nah BS, pay to win is pay to win.  Games dont get let off the hook just because some other game is worse.  "I only killed 10 people, hitler killed millions, thus I'm a saint"  kthx no.

Dvora

Wizardry said:

Without getting into specifics,i thought it was already common sense that most realize,cash shops are a terrible addition to gaming.It seems we are finding new ways or new ideas popup to reconfirm it but do we really need more proof?
The very premise that some developer claims their game is actually FREE is deceiving enough and proves they are not a trustworthy business.One of the biggest lamest perpetrators was Kings isle,claiming a free to play game yet you couldn't get past the few noob zones without paying,to me stuff like that is blatant lying.

That is actually the very sad problem that exists in gaming right now,tons of deception,lying,misleading crap to make a sale.Game developers have become worse than a used car salesman.
I should NEVER see any game item available only to those that are willing to give added money over other players.I treat gaming like sports,i want a level playing field and nothing more or less.

This is absolutely what it should be by law.  If games cant make money by honest clear cut service fees or product prices then they should not make the fn game.  This glut of crap f2p games is not helping anyone but greedy publishers.   

MadFrenchie

Distopia said:

MadFrenchie said:

 he seems to put the perceived health of the game over his own desires to buy power.  So I begrudgingly feel for the guy.

HAHA, He only cares about the health of the game so he has people to conquer, it's all about him living out his "10thousand dollar" power trip of a wet dream. 

Okay okay, he at least pays lip service to caring for the health of the game.

Distopia

Dvora said:

This is absolutely what it should be by law.  If games cant make money by honest clear cut service fees or product prices then they should not make the fn game.  This glut of crap f2p games is not helping anyone but greedy publishers.   

There's no real reason to bring laws into it, at least in the US, as our system has a built in mechanism just right to shut this stuff down. Getting burned. Eventually people will learn one way or the other. Once they do, this stuff will lay out it's own fate. 

Slapshot1188

This so far is my favorite response from one of the other heavy backers:

"So rather than thinking of the EP thinks as aids to winning, they ought to be seen as aides to story making."

Yup, buy all your advantages.  It certainly helps aid your story making... as long as the story has you as the hero vanquishing the lesser folks that dare challenge you with a rusty sword

goboygo

It appears they are starting to realize they don.t have anywhere near enough capital to make this thing and their only source of revenue is pre-selling items in the Cash Shop.  Trying to fund a game like this is just nuts and leads to crazy decisions about what to sell.  Look how broken Shroud of the Avatar is, another game funded with a weak Kickstarter then by basically selling their game assets in the store, items that people use in game to their advantage.

But since they are clearly underfunded, with development goals far beyond their finances, what are their options, fold it up, make a game thats a shell of the game they promised or do this?

It doesn't seem like they have any other choices unless they find funding.

Dagon13

Slapshot1188 said:

This so far is my favorite response from one of the other heavy backers:

"So rather than thinking of the EP thinks as aids to winning, they ought to be seen as aides to story making."

Yup, buy all your advantages.  It certainly helps aid your story making... as long as the story has you as the hero vanquishing the lesser folks that dare challenge you with a rusty sword

I don't have a problem with this concept as long as it's in context of the game.  Not everyone is in it for win conditions.  Especially the 99% who wouldn't even be able to bridge the gap over a one month worth of advantages, let alone 2 years.

rodarin

140 or so more million and 5 more years and it will be the greatest game ever.....

Kyleran

Perhaps at this point their best course of action is to go "full Monty" on the P2W aspect and not even attempt to appeal to anyone looking for fair and balanced.

Tiamat64

Kyleran said:

Perhaps at this point their best course of action is to go "full Monty" on the P2W aspect and not even attempt to appeal to anyone looking for fair and balanced.

Were it not for the fact that the developers drop by every once in a while to defend things as not pay-to-win, I'd be under the impression that they had already gone full monty on the P2W aspect by now.

...actually, I still am.

YashaX

Kyleran said:

Perhaps at this point their best course of action is to go "full Monty" on the P2W aspect and not even attempt to appeal to anyone looking for fair and balanced.

You mean they haven't already?

Hrimnir

I just can't actually, and I mean this, I can't understand why people play games that have even the slightest amount of P2W.  I mean even the slightest (and no having more bank vault pages doesn't count, I'm talking about being able to buy items that are non cosmetic, anything that boosts the speed of gains of any kind of resource, be it XP, gold, whatever).  Obviously I'm in the minority here as these games continue to do well financially so...

ConstantineMerus

When creativity in monetization is one of the earliest subjects in a project it's hard to expect anything else. 

Paying for "lives", like old arcades, in an MMO. Because it's better for players... Said Judas to Jesus during the last supper I bet. 

Distopia

Hrimnir said:

I just can't actually, and I mean this, I can't understand why people play games that have even the slightest amount of P2W.  I mean even the slightest (and no having more bank vault pages doesn't count, I'm talking about being able to buy items that are non cosmetic, anything that boosts the speed of gains of any kind of resource, be it XP, gold, whatever).  Obviously I'm in the minority here as these games continue to do well financially so...

I usually shy away from experiences like Archlord where items of power were the chief monetization method.  However it's pretty much impossible to play a game with "no" RMT or black market weapons going around, so there's no not playing a game with it if you're playing an MMO. The black market ensures there's always a P2W aspect, be it directly (cash shop), indirectly (gold) or black market RMT.. 

donger56

I'm glad I stayed far away from this project. This is just another reminder of why I never back games early on any more. Show me the game first, then I'll show you the money.