Sounds like just the latest example of why I will don't invest money (or generally much time) in any MMO that is even remotely pay for advantage; it may start off small, but it always seems to grow...
I just can't actually, and I mean this, I can't understand why people play games that have even the slightest amount of P2W. I mean even the slightest (and no having more bank vault pages doesn't count, I'm talking about being able to buy items that are non cosmetic, anything that boosts the speed of gains of any kind of resource, be it XP, gold, whatever). Obviously I'm in the minority here as these games continue to do well financially so...
People spent money on stuff they enjoy, what is difficult to comprehend about it? I bet you do it yourself as well.
However once it comes down to games, people go out of their minds if you want treat it like any other hobby....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Online gaming is a competitive endeavour, unlike say stamp collecting so there are differences when it comes to people spending money.
Not really true, at least officially... There's nothing truly controlled about it to keep it that way. This is simply a mentality a certain segment of gamers carry with them. They're no more entitled to get their way than anyone else, nor to project their wants on anyone else. That's up to the devs to program into the game and offer the product they want to offer.
Anyway... This could actually be brilliant as it offers an open environment for those wanting to compete with their wallet, as games like Entropia have.
In the end gaming is mostly about stroking egos, making one feel a certain way. It's nothing but an outlet. To be competitive, to feel special, to win... That's the whole point, I guess to some they feel a wallet is as good as a platform to perform from as skill. They can have their game.. For better or worse....
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
When selling a buy-to-play game (not just MMOs, but pretty much any game, solo or not, that you buy to play), the developers are generally forced to make a good game in order to earn their money (well, that and marketting, yoink).
When revenues are instead based on a cash shop model, however, the focus instead becomes about how to get people to spend on the cash shop. "Making a good game" MIGHT be a part of that, but even then, it's only a part of it.
So when you see the game's developers focusing primarily on what they can sell (seriously, this cash shop of their's is more fleshed out and specified than anything else with their game that they've shown so far), that should instantly be waving red flags.
I don't recall spending money when I played Dungeons and Dragons. The MMORPG genre has it's variations, but I don't play them for the esport nonsense. If I want competition, I'll play an FPS but if I want to go on a nice long adventure, I don't believe the entertainment value should depend on the size of my wallet.
Just but what you described, proves the genre went from entertainment to business. It's no wonder no one can enjoy an MMO anymore for more than 6 months tops.
You do not have to spent money on MMOs either, most of them are F2P.
Neither I can recall organizing D&D at home was a business, a bussines that cost tens of millions to run so by your own measure your comparison is false. MMOs were always a business in the first place, I don't know what could confuse you to think otherwise.
Besides, like I said before, competitiveness is a non-factor.
I don't recall spending money when I played Dungeons and Dragons. The MMORPG genre has it's variations, but I don't play them for the esport nonsense. If I want competition, I'll play an FPS but if I want to go on a nice long adventure, I don't believe the entertainment value should depend on the size of my wallet.
Just but what you described, proves the genre went from entertainment to business. It's no wonder no one can enjoy an MMO anymore for more than 6 months tops.
You do not have to spent money on MMOs either, most of them are F2P.
Neither I can recall organizing D&D at home was a business, a bussines that cost tens of millions to run so by your own measure your comparison is false. MMOs were always a business in the first place, I don't know what could confuse you to think otherwise.
Besides, like I said before, competitiveness is a non-factor.
I think you are getting confused somewhere along this discussion. I in no way had to open my wallet during a session of D&D to enjoy it. Just like D&D, EverQuest had an initial purchase. Such as when I bought a few D&D books or accessories in order to play the game. While EQ had a monthly fee, it was a mere $10-15 a month. Something I would probably spend on dice or character sheets. Then you had EQ expansions every few months or every year. I would consider that the same as buying a few new D&D modules.
You know how much money people are spending in these so called F2P MMOs nowadays? I'm willing to bet the average person probably spends more in the first month of these types of P2W MMOs than I spent on my entire 15 year D&D lifespan. So no, I'm not confused. I think you are confused by thinking games like EQ were competitive. It's these F2P cash shop PvP MMOs that are competitive and for the very reason of sucking money out of the community. These aren't even RPGs anymore. Just shallow, no content epeen stroking milk machines.
THe average player would be the majority, which I'd bet the majority spend nothing or very little on most of the f2p games they DL.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Online gaming is a competitive endeavour, unlike say stamp collecting so there are differences when it comes to people spending money.
...and like in any sports, competitive level is expensive. Same thing - people spending money on stuff they enjoy.
Competitiveness is as non-factor, in fact it contributes to spending incentives.
I don't recall spending money when I played Dungeons and Dragons. The MMORPG genre has it's variations, but I don't play them for the esport nonsense. If I want competition, I'll play an FPS but if I want to go on a nice long adventure, I don't believe the entertainment value should depend on the size of my wallet.
Just by what you described, proves the genre went from entertainment to business. It's no wonder no one can enjoy an MMO anymore for more than 6 months tops.
Surely you can't ignore the types who put thousands into their table top or CCG gaming to gain an edge in battles. Most hobbies have these huge needless money sinks to further your "devotion" with. Like D&D with all of it's extras one can purchase to run an even "better" session.
You also can't ignore most of them start out just as this genre did with EQ and a few others, experimenting with what was or could be in demand in order to monetize. This is all normal in any typical luxury. Players themselves showed very clearly not only could access be monetized, so could luxuries. They sold it between themselves long before any publisher got in on it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Perhaps at this point their best course of action is to go "full Monty" on the P2W aspect and not even attempt to appeal to anyone looking for fair and balanced.
Were it not for the fact that the developers drop by every once in a while to defend things as not pay-to-win, I'd be under the impression that they had already gone full monty on the P2W aspect by now.
...actually, I still am.
You mean Pay to Build? Apparently they feel that changing the last word makes a big difference
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I'm glad I stayed far away from this project. This is just another reminder of why I never back games early on any more. Show me the game first, then I'll show you the money.
I've supported this game since its Kickstarter, but I admit that I'm now disappointed in this current direction. If they don't reverse this decision, the game is likely doomed. And it's more than a little disconcerting to me that the developers wouldn't realize this on their own.
Welcome aboard!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Online gaming is a competitive endeavour, unlike say stamp collecting so there are differences when it comes to people spending money.
...and like in any sports, competitive level is expensive. Same thing - people spending money on stuff they enjoy.
Competitiveness is as non-factor, in fact it contributes to spending incentives.
Spending extra money taints competitive endeavours such as sports or gaming, while having little to no impact on non-competitive "hobbies"
In fact, we generally put tiers in place, calling sports with high dollar spending "professional" and even there sometimes put salary caps in place to prevent teams with the most money from always dominating the rest.
Amateur sports have always had limits on what can be spent, atheletes normally cannot be paid, universities have scholarship caps, etc.
In fact, when MMOs charged everyone the same price for box prices, monthly subs and expansions you could say they had a spending cap of a sorts, which these days has long since been tossed away.
So has any semblence of competitive fairness along the way.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Perhaps at this point their best course of action is to go "full Monty" on the P2W aspect and not even attempt to appeal to anyone looking for fair and balanced.
Were it not for the fact that the developers drop by every once in a while to defend things as not pay-to-win, I'd be under the impression that they had already gone full monty on the P2W aspect by now.
...actually, I still am.
You mean Pay to Build? Apparently they feel that changing the last word makes a big difference
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I see many strawmen here alleging that RL sports and hobbies are no different from modern P2W MMO's.
What complete and utter rubbish.
If that were the case in sports, one team in a football match would be paying for "early access" to the field, so they can score a few goals while the other team watches. It's OK isn't it, they'll just be slightly ahead, the other team can still beat them once everyone is allowed on the field, not so ?
And in professional golf, nobody would mind if one wealthy player used a driver with a small rocket-boost attached ? And his own ball with a built-in gyroscopic stabiliser ?
Of course not...
All competitive sports and hobbies have rules that strive to ensure that matches are as fair and balanced as possible to all competitors. Cheaters get lifetime bans and are stripped of any titles they earned illegally.
A MMO is the equivalent of a match in RL sports. But unlike RL sports, P2W MMO's allow the players to spend vast amounts of money to directly influence the outcome of the match.
In fact, when MMOs charged everyone the same price for box prices, monthly subs and expansions you could say they had a spending cap of a sorts, which these days has long since been tossed away.
So has any semblence of competitive fairness along the way.
False logic.
All sports people, either amateur or professonal spent different amounts, which has no semblence in MMOs where everyone is capped at box fee and subscription.
The guy is complaining that a game the monetization of which is pretty much based on the concept that you can buy tremendous ingame advantages for real money is now becoming "Pay to Win" for christsakes.
I have to agree with this. He mentions that he was fine with the P2W when it was "surmountable." This guy doesn't want it too easy, but he doesn't want it level, either. He wants it right in the sweet spot where it's like he's starting a campaign of Rome: Total War with the Romans at the height of their power.
I'm conflicted. On one hand, I find buying advantages in a competitive game disgusting. On the other, he seems to put the perceived health of the game over his own desires to buy power. So I begrudgingly feel for the guy.
It's like modded Skyrim. When you have access to every kind of game altering modification imaginable. You can literally do anything you want. (Assuming that translating that into the MMO world, and money is no object) You can easily make your character an omnipotent god. But how fun is that? I've played with stacked mods. I still play Skyrim because of how the mods change the game for me. But if I don't find the right balance of mods and the game becomes too easy. I will usually dump my saves and try all over again. with a different set of mods that are tuned to make the game more fun but retain the difficulty factor. I'll never finish a campaign if it isn't.
In fact, when MMOs charged everyone the same price for box prices, monthly subs and expansions you could say they had a spending cap of a sorts, which these days has long since been tossed away.
So has any semblence of competitive fairness along the way.
False logic.
All sports people, either amateur or professonal spent different amounts, which has no semblence in MMOs where everyone is capped at box fee and subscription.
Because MMO players who are capped at box fee/sub can't spend any addional money on better computers, peripherals, internet connections etc, which would equate to the money sports teams spend on practice facilities, equipment, and facilities above and beyond salary spending or scholarship limits.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Oh, you edited your post rather quickly. So much for that, lol.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
In fact, when MMOs charged everyone the same price for box prices, monthly subs and expansions you could say they had a spending cap of a sorts, which these days has long since been tossed away.
So has any semblence of competitive fairness along the way.
False logic.
All sports people, either amateur or professonal spent different amounts, which has no semblence in MMOs where everyone is capped at box fee and subscription.
Because MMO players who are capped at box fee/sub can't spend any addional money on better computers, peripherals, internet connections etc, which would equate to the money sports teams spend on practice facilities, equipment, and facilities above and beyond salary spending or scholarship limits.
Man, I so love the WTF button....
You win the internet !
"All MMO's are P2W, because some players can buy more expensive PC's to play them on..."
I just can't actually, and I mean this, I can't understand why people play games that have even the slightest amount of P2W. I mean even the slightest (and no having more bank vault pages doesn't count, I'm talking about being able to buy items that are non cosmetic, anything that boosts the speed of gains of any kind of resource, be it XP, gold, whatever). Obviously I'm in the minority here as these games continue to do well financially so...
I think the problem is that 99.99% of those games can be categorised as P2W. Even in a game that doesn't sell anything for real money, you can go and type "WTB epic stuff for $100" and someone will come forward and sell you what you want. The 0.01% exception are games where people either don't sell their stuff for real money to other people or there is such a strong enforcement and monitoring that all suspicious transactions are logged and flagged, people immediately caught and permanently banned.
If you are against P2W, then I recommend you do not buy this game, period. It doesn't matter if they completely remove every bit of P2W at this point, I will never support a developer that even considers utilizing P2W mechanics in their video games.
Comments
However once it comes down to games, people go out of their minds if you want treat it like any other hobby....
Like you said, it is a mnority though.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Competitiveness is as non-factor, in fact it contributes to spending incentives.
Anyway... This could actually be brilliant as it offers an open environment for those wanting to compete with their wallet, as games like Entropia have.
In the end gaming is mostly about stroking egos, making one feel a certain way. It's nothing but an outlet. To be competitive, to feel special, to win... That's the whole point, I guess to some they feel a wallet is as good as a platform to perform from as skill. They can have their game.. For better or worse....
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
When revenues are instead based on a cash shop model, however, the focus instead becomes about how to get people to spend on the cash shop. "Making a good game" MIGHT be a part of that, but even then, it's only a part of it.
So when you see the game's developers focusing primarily on what they can sell (seriously, this cash shop of their's is more fleshed out and specified than anything else with their game that they've shown so far), that should instantly be waving red flags.
You do not have to spent money on MMOs either, most of them are F2P.
Neither I can recall organizing D&D at home was a business, a bussines that cost tens of millions to run so by your own measure your comparison is false. MMOs were always a business in the first place, I don't know what could confuse you to think otherwise.
Besides, like I said before, competitiveness is a non-factor.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You also can't ignore most of them start out just as this genre did with EQ and a few others, experimenting with what was or could be in demand in order to monetize. This is all normal in any typical luxury. Players themselves showed very clearly not only could access be monetized, so could luxuries. They sold it between themselves long before any publisher got in on it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
In fact, we generally put tiers in place, calling sports with high dollar spending "professional" and even there sometimes put salary caps in place to prevent teams with the most money from always dominating the rest.
Amateur sports have always had limits on what can be spent, atheletes normally cannot be paid, universities have scholarship caps, etc.
In fact, when MMOs charged everyone the same price for box prices, monthly subs and expansions you could say they had a spending cap of a sorts, which these days has long since been tossed away.
So has any semblence of competitive fairness along the way.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What complete and utter rubbish.
If that were the case in sports, one team in a football match would be paying for "early access" to the field, so they can score a few goals while the other team watches. It's OK isn't it, they'll just be slightly ahead, the other team can still beat them once everyone is allowed on the field, not so ?
And in professional golf, nobody would mind if one wealthy player used a driver with a small rocket-boost attached ? And his own ball with a built-in gyroscopic stabiliser ?
Of course not...
All competitive sports and hobbies have rules that strive to ensure that matches are as fair and balanced as possible to all competitors. Cheaters get lifetime bans and are stripped of any titles they earned illegally.
A MMO is the equivalent of a match in RL sports. But unlike RL sports, P2W MMO's allow the players to spend vast amounts of money to directly influence the outcome of the match.
I'm with you, I'll be giving this title a miss, even when it launches.
False logic.
All sports people, either amateur or professonal spent different amounts, which has no semblence in MMOs where everyone is capped at box fee and subscription.
But how fun is that? I've played with stacked mods. I still play Skyrim because of how the mods change the game for me. But if I don't find the right balance of mods and the game becomes too easy. I will usually dump my saves and try all over again. with a different set of mods that are tuned to make the game more fun but retain the difficulty factor. I'll never finish a campaign if it isn't.
Man, I so love the WTF button....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
"All MMO's are P2W, because some players can buy more expensive PC's to play them on..."
We have entered the Twilight Zone I think...
I think the problem is that 99.99% of those games can be categorised as P2W. Even in a game that doesn't sell anything for real money, you can go and type "WTB epic stuff for $100" and someone will come forward and sell you what you want. The 0.01% exception are games where people either don't sell their stuff for real money to other people or there is such a strong enforcement and monitoring that all suspicious transactions are logged and flagged, people immediately caught and permanently banned.
* more info, screenshots and videos here