How to identify dubious Kickstarters, EarlyAccess and Crowd funded Projects.

Risc1911

1. Refuse to give a Release Date.
   
2. Refuse to show actual game play because of spoilers.
3. Refuse to talk about the technological details, claiming confidentiality or trade secrets.
4. Presenting news of Investments or hires as evidence of technological progress.
5. Promoting itself on a big stage instead of a board room.
6. Offering a well-crafted message and vision but becoming increasingly vague when pushed on actual details.
7. Offering "exclusive access" - with restrictions.
8. Confusing working hard with making progress.
   

(1) It's done when it's done. This has been spun as a positive thing in recent years. You will often hear people say: "I rather have them take more time and deliver something good than release an unfinished game". While at first this sounds like a great idea, when you take a step back you realize that this really only works in a world were there is an infinite amount of money, time and resources for every project. If you can not set a goal you can't manage your finances to reach that goal. It's that simple.

(2)  For decades Movies, TV Shows and Games have shown Trailers, Teasers and Sizzle Reels without spoilers. This is so obvious it should not even need an explanation. Made famous by Star Citzen CEO Chris Roberts and his brother Erin Roberts using it as an excuse to hide the fact that their single player game Squadron 42 is now 3 years late with nothing to show for.

(3) You will often hear things like: "We can not talk about Feature X because competition will steal the idea". This is bullshit because if you had a great Feature or idea that is so new and revolutionary that others would steal it then you as a company should copyright/patent it immediately. An idea like that is a potential money printing machine if you have the patent/copyright. No company would let this opportunity go.

(4) Companies use this to give the impression of progress in a certain area. "We hired a XYZ specialist". This has become an often used argument to counter criticism. You will hear variations of, "Look at their webpage, they are hiring people, why would they hire people if they are a scam/have no money". A webpage with job listings does not mean anything.

(5) There is nothing wrong with having some stage time at E3 or GamesCom, however using big and private events for everything is usually a red flag indicating that there is way to much effort and money spent on the image of the company instead of the actual product. A product should be able to speak for itself if it is good.

(6) I think this one is pretty obvious.

(7) This has been used by almost all recent EA, Kickstarter, Crowdfunded Project. Exclusive access and unprecedented transparency are the new buzzwords but when looked at it closely you realize that this transparency is nothing but well managed PR, video productions and commercials. Real transparency like financial disclosure, design and project plan or even release schedules are usually not included in this "Exclusive Access and Transparency".

(8) I am sure you have heard this a million times without even noticing it. "We are working hard on bringing you X" and variations of this are very common. Working hard is not the same as working smart and making progress.


Do you have anything yo add to the list? Let me know in the comments.

Slapshot1188

I don't know if it's as simple as that. Many go the opposite but are still dubious.   take your first point:  if anything most Kickstarters actually throw out a date.  It's just that the date is ridiculously short, because if they actually told people they were buying a game for 2022 few would donate.

SEANMCAD

to be honest I think the good of what Early Access has done in the past 3 years far outweighs the bad and should likely just be left alone.


basically meaning dont try to fix something that is not broken in the first place and by trying to fix it you break it.

just like a fine tuned car, dont experiment with new clever ideas to make it better. its good, leave it, dont break it

btdt

How to identify dubious kick starters, early access, and crowd funded projects...

1.  It is a kick starter, early access, or crowd funded project.

The list need not go on from there.  

SEANMCAD

btdt said:

How to identify dubious kick starters, early access, and crowd funded projects...

1.  It is a kick starter, early access, or crowd funded project.

The list need not go on from there.  

1/2 of the (6 I think) top selling games on Steam in 2016 where early access titles.
I can list a combination of I think its 3 very popular early access titles of which their sales in total are more than ALL the sales on ALL platforms for the Witcher 3.

it appears there are a lot of people like myself who like these games

Lobotomist

1. Asking for unreasonable small amount of money ( 2 million dollars is minimum required to develop single player game , MMO costs at least 10x more )

2. Having extremely fast release date ( in under 6 months )

blorpykins

I will never invest in another game that is being designed by anyone associated with Shroud of the Avatar. This is a video of the three main people in SotA and some other developers and they admit that their entire Kickstarter was a ploy just to pull in cash.  They laugh at backers for thinking they developed tech that they bought from the Unity asset store and they have no plan for development.  They're just hanging out and drinking beers and laughing at backers and talking about RMT and collecting rares as what players want.  It's pretty bad.  Jump to time 41 and watch for 10 minutes then check out the ending too where they talk about free to play as their business plan.  It's guys like this that mess it up for everyone because their Kickstarter hit all the right marks and they're supposed to be industry vets.  Sometimes there's just no way to know for sure if things are real or a lie.

Vrika

I think the most important way to evaluate Kickstarter/crowdfunded projects are:

1. What projects have the creator(s) developed and launched before?

2. How much of their own money or investors money do they get to the project? Unless a written promise of a certain sum is made, assume 0$.

3. Is the promised money + money from Kickstarter enough to complete the project?



For Early Access titles the evaluation is simpler:

1. Is the game already fun to play and worth its price?

SEANMCAD

Vrika said:

For Early Access titles the evaluation is simpler:

1. Is the game already fun to play and worth its price?

EXACT! and nobody should ever buy promises. meaning dont buy the game thinking about what it might become, buy it because it looks compelling to play right now, and in that case there are many titles that are well worth that price

Kyleran

SEANMCAD said:

btdt said:

How to identify dubious kick starters, early access, and crowd funded projects...

1.  It is a kick starter, early access, or crowd funded project.

The list need not go on from there.  

1/2 of the (6 I think) top selling games on Steam in 2016 where early access titles.
I can list a combination of I think its 3 very popular early access titles of which their sales in total are more than ALL the sales on ALL platforms for the Witcher 3.

it appears there are a lot of people like myself who like these games

Sigh, you are correct, so many people we need to change their way of thinking, its a monumental task indeed.

Its OK, we can fix them, will just take some time.

postlarval

Risc1911 said:

(1) It's done when it's done. This has been spun as a positive thing in recent years. You will often hear people say: "I rather have them take more time and deliver something good than release an unfinished game". While at first this sounds like a great idea, when you take a step back you realize that this really only works in a world were there is an infinite amount of money, time and resources for every project. If you can not set a goal you can't manage your finances to reach that goal. It's that simple.

You can partly blame the introduction of Agile development as a source of this. Too many developers -- and this is not limited to game development -- misunderstand it. Agile is even more structured than waterfall methodology but developers only seem to latch on to the parts that let them think "Ooo, no schedules! Just code and build...code and build...until we get it right."

They think standing in a room shooting the shit for 15 minutes constitutes a Scrum. I also highly doubt any of them employ ScrumMasters who can run proper sprints, help them define 'done', and possibly use something like RACI to help them understand who does what and who they are beholden to. You know, bring some order to the mess.

Instead they stroke their customer's egos with promises they don't have the slightest clue if they can keep, preferring to go back later and "figure it out". That is no way to run development, regardless of the industry.

Rawyn

Yup starting at the 41 minute mark people can tell you all about how this crappy game came about. Don't give them your money.

blorpykins said:

I will never invest in another game that is being designed by anyone associated with Shroud of the Avatar. This is a video of the three main people in SotA and some other developers and they admit that their entire Kickstarter was a ploy just to pull in cash.  They laugh at backers for thinking they developed tech that they bought from the Unity asset store and they have no plan for development.  They're just hanging out and drinking beers and laughing at backers and talking about RMT and collecting rares as what players want.  It's pretty bad.  Jump to time 41 and watch for 10 minutes then check out the ending too where they talk about free to play as their business plan.  It's guys like this that mess it up for everyone because their Kickstarter hit all the right marks and they're supposed to be industry vets.  Sometimes there's just no way to know for sure if things are real or a lie.

Ice-Queen

blorpykins
That video really hits home as to why Sota has never evolved into a real game over the past 4 years. It remains a demo of sorts with an add-on store to me. Minimal effort put into it while spending more focus on overpriced add-on store items and constantly begging for more money with their begathons. It's been the most unprofessional team I've seen in my years of playing mmorpg's. I too would say do not give this company a dime of your money, I wish I hadn't. As many others have stated in the past few months, I expect this game will go free to play and eventually shut down.

This game and company should be an example of how not to do a kickstarter game if you don't want it to fail.

bcbully

Ice-Queen said:

blorpykins
That video really hits home as to why Sota has never evolved into a real game over the past 4 years. It remains a demo of sorts with an add-on store to me. Minimal effort put into it while spending more focus on overpriced add-on store items and constantly begging for more money with their begathons. It's been the most unprofessional team I've seen in my years of playing mmorpg's. I too would say do not give this company a dime of your money, I wish I hadn't. As many others have stated in the past few months, I expect this game will go free to play and eventually shut down.

This game and company should be an example of how not to do a kickstarter game if you don't want it to fail.

SotA died the day they described their tacked on pvp with it's completely impractical flagging system. It might as well had been duels only. 

a side from that kickstarter is a terrible platform for mmorpgs. the development cycle is just too long.

postlarval

blorpykins said:

I will never invest in another game that is being designed by anyone associated with Shroud of the Avatar. This is a video of the three main people in SotA and some other developers and they admit that their entire Kickstarter was a ploy just to pull in cash.  They laugh at backers for thinking they developed tech that they bought from the Unity asset store and they have no plan for development.  They're just hanging out and drinking beers and laughing at backers and talking about RMT and collecting rares as what players want.  It's pretty bad.  Jump to time 41 and watch for 10 minutes then check out the ending too where they talk about free to play as their business plan.  It's guys like this that mess it up for everyone because their Kickstarter hit all the right marks and they're supposed to be industry vets.  Sometimes there's just no way to know for sure if things are real or a lie.

The presence of A LOT of empty chairs kind of implies others have already figured that out.

Octagon7711

When in doubt, just wait.  The only thing lost will be getting founder packs, but they usually have another version after launch.  If it is legit you've lost a little time on a game you will spend years playing if it's not, you've saved yourself money and time defending a game as if you owned it.

SomethingUnusual

Someone made a bad gamble and is mad about it...

Get over yourselves. 

Risc1911

SomethingUnusual said:

Someone made a bad gamble and is mad about it...

Get over yourselves. 

Like i always say. NEVER gamble in the first place. Wait for release and laugh.

ZionBane

This is why I don't buy a game.. till there is a game.

Daxamar

Leave the gambling on KS and crowdfunding to the adults please. Tyvm

Konfess

Want to know what else shares those same identifying traits?  A Game in Development.

I don't think this thread has anything to do with investors remorse, its all about anger about being asked to pay for access and development.  This is all about getting something for free, and nothing more.

Risc1911 said:

SomethingUnusual said:

Someone made a bad gamble and is mad about it...

Get over yourselves. 

Like i always say. NEVER gamble in the first place. Wait for release and laugh.

And now my point is proven.

SomethingUnusual

There really isn't anything wrong with the gamble... We all do it every day, somehow, someway. 

I don't know, nor can speak for everyone, but I personally have bought several games over the last few years that went straight to the trash (Can't return PC games to stores...). If it's okay to buy a triple A title that sucks and get burned for 60 dollars. 5 bucks to a  kickstarter is the least of your worries, and even less of the gamble. At least they are trying to be straight up about it and not just ripping your wallet right out of your pocket at the electronics store.

Really need to get over it, your fuss is falling on deaf ears and dumbfounded idiots. 
When you buy any product, or invest (Key word there, invest.) you are taking the gamble. You can't avoid it. 

Shop smartly and research, don't bash a fundraising method over ONE title that you want to cry about. Ten more will end up successful without you or your money. 

Risc1911

SomethingUnusual said:

Shop smartly and research, don't bash a fundraising method over ONE title that you want to cry about. Ten more will end up successful without you or your money. 

All very good advise, if in doubt don't fund. I never do, that's why i have no regrets. I can always get the game when it comes out.

SEANMCAD

For people who are currently displeased with the games (MMO and other) that have been coming out today and also unwilling to try early access games I really feel empathy because it really could solve your woes by trying early access with an open mind.

But my gut tells me those people just complain about everything regardless

Risc1911

SEANMCAD said:

For people who are currently displeased with the games (MMO and other) that have been coming out today and also unwilling to try early access games I really feel empathy because it really could solve your woes by trying early access with an open mind.

But my gut tells me those people just complain about everything regardless

Can't really blame them when early access games stay unfinished forever and sometimes even shadier things happen, like a polished commercial version is released or the original creator gets bored and leaves (looking at you Day Z and ARK)

SEANMCAD

Risc1911 said:

SEANMCAD said:

For people who are currently displeased with the games (MMO and other) that have been coming out today and also unwilling to try early access games I really feel empathy because it really could solve your woes by trying early access with an open mind.

But my gut tells me those people just complain about everything regardless

Can't really blame them when early access games stay unfinished forever and sometimes even shadier things happen, like a polished commercial version is released or the original creator gets bored and leaves (looking at you Day Z and ARK)

no I ABSOLUTELY DO blame them.

I keep saying this and its worth repeating, the quality of a game has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with its release status. 
I can create a game with a large red button and all you do is hit and it says 'your a winner' and call it done. That doesnt make my game better than Ark because its 'done'

Nobody really should be scratching their head trying to figure how to determine if a game is good. what makes a good games is the goddamn gaming experience