I'd argue that most people don't know what clickbait is, or rather that they don't understand the full scope of what clickbait is. Most would agree a title like "Messner gave birth to a three headed dolphin!" would be clickbait... however, the more refined clickbait title would adhere to the practice of keeping the title in the realm of creating a curiosity.
"Clickbait headlines typically aim to exploit the "curiosity gap", providing just enough information to make readers curious, but not enough to satisfy their curiosity without clicking through to the linked content"
What we think we know:
(1) Messner says he shared messages with Kickstarter - he provided no name to attach to the quotes... Kickstarter is not a person - he provided a very simple context for the quotes, context is key - he should post the entire message sent from Kickstarter
(2) Sharif shared messages with Kickstarter - he changed the wording of the referral program - he made a statement that all kickstarter pledges would count
The onus of factual reporting is on Messner in this scenario. Sharif has everything to lose if he's wrong... Messner on the hand loses nothing and goes right back to writing. So, the doubters will doubt, and the believers will believe but only for a few more days. Once the Kickstarter is over and people link their accounts to their pledges, the truth will out.
Looking at Messner, this is from his profile page on PC Gamer:
"Steven is PC Gamer's contributing editor and has a
nose for sniffing out the interesting and unique stories being told
every day in the PC community. He likes RPGs of the MMO persuasion but
doesn't have friends so regular RPGs are good too." http://www.pcgamer.com/author/steven-messner/
If you look at the sort of opinion pieces he writes, it's all clickbait.
As far as I know the PC Gamer article has not been taken down nor has the MassivelyOP one. Neither of them have complied with Steven Sharif. For compliance Steven Sharif would likely need to get Kickstarter, the alleged source, to respond stating they are lying.
They aren't going to just remove the article because he commands them to. That's not how it works. The burden is just as much on him as it is on them for showing evidence required for a retraction.
Haha - they're not fighting a war; these are gamer sites... their bread and butter is clickbait! No one is going to suffer any loss of credibility if they don't comply with a request for retraction. PC Gamer not complying with the request does not legitimize their claim either, it just means they're still getting enough clicks to feel good about leaving it up.
Think about it like this. Do we trust a twenty-three year old source that is well-known in the industry (PC Gamer) or Steven Sharif?
I don't trust anyone that measures their success through advertising.
PC Gamer gets paid by the click....
Intrepid hyped their Kickstarter with something for people to do to help get the word out about their game.
Dude, this isn't even real drama. And it only became drama when PC Gamer said
"which has removed Kickstarter pledges from its referral program." That's the lie and it'll all shake out in the wash.
Will the pledges count towards the referal program? Yes they will.
The right thing to do would be for Messner to apologize for his part in this drama just to stir the pot for more clicks... He could have taken the high road - but he chose clicks over professionalism.
Isn't the entire referral system a form of advertisement and isn't it a way for them to get profit?
I'd argue that most people don't know what clickbait is, or rather that they don't understand the full scope of what clickbait is. Most would agree a title like "Messner gave birth to a three headed dolphin!" would be clickbait... however, the more refined clickbait title would adhere to the practice of keeping the title in the realm of creating a curiosity.
"Clickbait headlines typically aim to exploit the "curiosity gap", providing just enough information to make readers curious, but not enough to satisfy their curiosity without clicking through to the linked content"
What we think we know:
(1) Messner says he shared messages with Kickstarter - he provided no name to attach to the quotes... Kickstarter is not a person - he provided a very simple context for the quotes, context is key - he should post the entire message sent from Kickstarter
(2) Sharif shared messages with Kickstarter - he changed the wording of the referral program - he made a statement that all kickstarter pledges would count
The onus of factual reporting is on Messner in this scenario. Sharif has everything to lose if he's wrong... Messner on the hand loses nothing and goes right back to writing. So, the doubters will doubt, and the believers will believe but only for a few more days. Once the Kickstarter is over and people link their accounts to their pledges, the truth will out.
Looking at Messner, this is from his profile page on PC Gamer:
"Steven is PC Gamer's contributing editor and has a
nose for sniffing out the interesting and unique stories being told
every day in the PC community. He likes RPGs of the MMO persuasion but
doesn't have friends so regular RPGs are good too." http://www.pcgamer.com/author/steven-messner/
If you look at the sort of opinion pieces he writes, it's all clickbait.
As far as I know the PC Gamer article has not been taken down nor has the MassivelyOP one. Neither of them have complied with Steven Sharif. For compliance Steven Sharif would likely need to get Kickstarter, the alleged source, to respond stating they are lying.
They aren't going to just remove the article because he commands them to. That's not how it works. The burden is just as much on him as it is on them for showing evidence required for a retraction.
Haha - they're not fighting a war; these are gamer sites... their bread and butter is clickbait! No one is going to suffer any loss of credibility if they don't comply with a request for retraction. PC Gamer not complying with the request does not legitimize their claim either, it just means they're still getting enough clicks to feel good about leaving it up.
Think about it like this. Do we trust a twenty-three year old source that is well-known in the industry (PC Gamer) or Steven Sharif?
I don't trust anyone that measures their success through advertising.
PC Gamer gets paid by the click....
Intrepid hyped their Kickstarter with something for people to do to help get the word out about their game.
Dude, this isn't even real drama. And it only became drama when PC Gamer said
"which has removed Kickstarter pledges from its referral program." That's the lie and it'll all shake out in the wash.
Will the pledges count towards the referal program? Yes they will.
The right thing to do would be for Messner to apologize for his part in this drama just to stir the pot for more clicks... He could have taken the high road - but he chose clicks over professionalism.
Isn't the entire referral system a form of advertisement and isn't it a way for them to get profit?
Sure it is, but it's not how the game will be measured for success. Messner writes an article and if it produces revenue, he gets to keep writing. If no one uses the referral system, so what.
I'd argue that most people don't know what clickbait is, or rather that they don't understand the full scope of what clickbait is. Most would agree a title like "Messner gave birth to a three headed dolphin!" would be clickbait... however, the more refined clickbait title would adhere to the practice of keeping the title in the realm of creating a curiosity.
"Clickbait headlines typically aim to exploit the "curiosity gap", providing just enough information to make readers curious, but not enough to satisfy their curiosity without clicking through to the linked content"
What we think we know:
(1) Messner says he shared messages with Kickstarter - he provided no name to attach to the quotes... Kickstarter is not a person - he provided a very simple context for the quotes, context is key - he should post the entire message sent from Kickstarter
(2) Sharif shared messages with Kickstarter - he changed the wording of the referral program - he made a statement that all kickstarter pledges would count
The onus of factual reporting is on Messner in this scenario. Sharif has everything to lose if he's wrong... Messner on the hand loses nothing and goes right back to writing. So, the doubters will doubt, and the believers will believe but only for a few more days. Once the Kickstarter is over and people link their accounts to their pledges, the truth will out.
Looking at Messner, this is from his profile page on PC Gamer:
"Steven is PC Gamer's contributing editor and has a
nose for sniffing out the interesting and unique stories being told
every day in the PC community. He likes RPGs of the MMO persuasion but
doesn't have friends so regular RPGs are good too." http://www.pcgamer.com/author/steven-messner/
If you look at the sort of opinion pieces he writes, it's all clickbait.
As far as I know the PC Gamer article has not been taken down nor has the MassivelyOP one. Neither of them have complied with Steven Sharif. For compliance Steven Sharif would likely need to get Kickstarter, the alleged source, to respond stating they are lying.
They aren't going to just remove the article because he commands them to. That's not how it works. The burden is just as much on him as it is on them for showing evidence required for a retraction.
Haha - they're not fighting a war; these are gamer sites... their bread and butter is clickbait! No one is going to suffer any loss of credibility if they don't comply with a request for retraction. PC Gamer not complying with the request does not legitimize their claim either, it just means they're still getting enough clicks to feel good about leaving it up.
Think about it like this. Do we trust a twenty-three year old source that is well-known in the industry (PC Gamer) or Steven Sharif?
I don't trust anyone that measures their success through advertising.
PC Gamer gets paid by the click....
Intrepid hyped their Kickstarter with something for people to do to help get the word out about their game.
Dude, this isn't even real drama. And it only became drama when PC Gamer said
"which has removed Kickstarter pledges from its referral program." That's the lie and it'll all shake out in the wash.
Will the pledges count towards the referal program? Yes they will.
The right thing to do would be for Messner to apologize for his part in this drama just to stir the pot for more clicks... He could have taken the high road - but he chose clicks over professionalism.
Isn't the entire referral system a form of advertisement and isn't it a way for them to get profit?
Sure it is, but it's not how the game will be measured for success. Messner writes an article and if it produces revenue, he gets to keep writing. If no one uses the referral system, so what.
Alright, well. I think we will just have to agree to disagree and see if there is ever a retraction or response. You and I debating won't resolve anything or help anyone.
I'd argue that most people don't know what clickbait is, or rather that they don't understand the full scope of what clickbait is. Most would agree a title like "Messner gave birth to a three headed dolphin!" would be clickbait... however, the more refined clickbait title would adhere to the practice of keeping the title in the realm of creating a curiosity.
"Clickbait headlines typically aim to exploit the "curiosity gap", providing just enough information to make readers curious, but not enough to satisfy their curiosity without clicking through to the linked content"
What we think we know:
(1) Messner says he shared messages with Kickstarter - he provided no name to attach to the quotes... Kickstarter is not a person - he provided a very simple context for the quotes, context is key - he should post the entire message sent from Kickstarter
(2) Sharif shared messages with Kickstarter - he changed the wording of the referral program - he made a statement that all kickstarter pledges would count
The onus of factual reporting is on Messner in this scenario. Sharif has everything to lose if he's wrong... Messner on the hand loses nothing and goes right back to writing. So, the doubters will doubt, and the believers will believe but only for a few more days. Once the Kickstarter is over and people link their accounts to their pledges, the truth will out.
Looking at Messner, this is from his profile page on PC Gamer:
"Steven is PC Gamer's contributing editor and has a
nose for sniffing out the interesting and unique stories being told
every day in the PC community. He likes RPGs of the MMO persuasion but
doesn't have friends so regular RPGs are good too." http://www.pcgamer.com/author/steven-messner/
If you look at the sort of opinion pieces he writes, it's all clickbait.
As far as I know the PC Gamer article has not been taken down nor has the MassivelyOP one. Neither of them have complied with Steven Sharif. For compliance Steven Sharif would likely need to get Kickstarter, the alleged source, to respond stating they are lying.
They aren't going to just remove the article because he commands them to. That's not how it works. The burden is just as much on him as it is on them for showing evidence required for a retraction.
Haha - they're not fighting a war; these are gamer sites... their bread and butter is clickbait! No one is going to suffer any loss of credibility if they don't comply with a request for retraction. PC Gamer not complying with the request does not legitimize their claim either, it just means they're still getting enough clicks to feel good about leaving it up.
Think about it like this. Do we trust a twenty-three year old source that is well-known in the industry (PC Gamer) or Steven Sharif?
I don't trust anyone that measures their success through advertising.
PC Gamer gets paid by the click....
Intrepid hyped their Kickstarter with something for people to do to help get the word out about their game.
Dude, this isn't even real drama. And it only became drama when PC Gamer said
"which has removed Kickstarter pledges from its referral program." That's the lie and it'll all shake out in the wash.
Will the pledges count towards the referal program? Yes they will.
The right thing to do would be for Messner to apologize for his part in this drama just to stir the pot for more clicks... He could have taken the high road - but he chose clicks over professionalism.
Isn't the entire referral system a form of advertisement and isn't it a way for them to get profit?
Sure it is, but it's not how the game will be measured for success. Messner writes an article and if it produces revenue, he gets to keep writing. If no one uses the referral system, so what.
Alright, well. I think we will just have to agree to disagree and see if there is ever a retraction or response. You and I debating won't resolve anything or help anyone.
Yep. It'll only take a few more days before Kickstarter end + whatever time it takes to get pledges linked to ashesofcreation accounts. That's when we'll know the truth. If that happens and PC Gamer hasn't printed a retraction yet, I'm guessing there might be a lot of people demanding his resignation.
I'd argue that most people don't know what clickbait is, or rather that they don't understand the full scope of what clickbait is. Most would agree a title like "Messner gave birth to a three headed dolphin!" would be clickbait... however, the more refined clickbait title would adhere to the practice of keeping the title in the realm of creating a curiosity.
"Clickbait headlines typically aim to exploit the "curiosity gap", providing just enough information to make readers curious, but not enough to satisfy their curiosity without clicking through to the linked content"
What we think we know:
(1) Messner says he shared messages with Kickstarter - he provided no name to attach to the quotes... Kickstarter is not a person - he provided a very simple context for the quotes, context is key - he should post the entire message sent from Kickstarter
(2) Sharif shared messages with Kickstarter - he changed the wording of the referral program - he made a statement that all kickstarter pledges would count
The onus of factual reporting is on Messner in this scenario. Sharif has everything to lose if he's wrong... Messner on the hand loses nothing and goes right back to writing. So, the doubters will doubt, and the believers will believe but only for a few more days. Once the Kickstarter is over and people link their accounts to their pledges, the truth will out.
Looking at Messner, this is from his profile page on PC Gamer:
"Steven is PC Gamer's contributing editor and has a
nose for sniffing out the interesting and unique stories being told
every day in the PC community. He likes RPGs of the MMO persuasion but
doesn't have friends so regular RPGs are good too." http://www.pcgamer.com/author/steven-messner/
If you look at the sort of opinion pieces he writes, it's all clickbait.
As far as I know the PC Gamer article has not been taken down nor has the MassivelyOP one. Neither of them have complied with Steven Sharif. For compliance Steven Sharif would likely need to get Kickstarter, the alleged source, to respond stating they are lying.
They aren't going to just remove the article because he commands them to. That's not how it works. The burden is just as much on him as it is on them for showing evidence required for a retraction.
Haha - they're not fighting a war; these are gamer sites... their bread and butter is clickbait! No one is going to suffer any loss of credibility if they don't comply with a request for retraction. PC Gamer not complying with the request does not legitimize their claim either, it just means they're still getting enough clicks to feel good about leaving it up.
Think about it like this. Do we trust a twenty-three year old source that is well-known in the industry (PC Gamer) or Steven Sharif?
I don't trust anyone that measures their success through advertising.
PC Gamer gets paid by the click....
Intrepid hyped their Kickstarter with something for people to do to help get the word out about their game.
Dude, this isn't even real drama. And it only became drama when PC Gamer said
"which has removed Kickstarter pledges from its referral program." That's the lie and it'll all shake out in the wash.
Will the pledges count towards the referal program? Yes they will.
The right thing to do would be for Messner to apologize for his part in this drama just to stir the pot for more clicks... He could have taken the high road - but he chose clicks over professionalism.
Isn't the entire referral system a form of advertisement and isn't it a way for them to get profit?
Sure it is, but it's not how the game will be measured for success. Messner writes an article and if it produces revenue, he gets to keep writing. If no one uses the referral system, so what.
Alright, well. I think we will just have to agree to disagree and see if there is ever a retraction or response. You and I debating won't resolve anything or help anyone.
Yep. It'll only take a few more days before Kickstarter end + whatever time it takes to get pledges linked to ashesofcreation accounts. That's when we'll know the truth. If that happens and PC Gamer hasn't printed a retraction yet, I'm guessing there might be a lot of people demanding his resignation.
You always attack PC Gamer in your statement but no one else. You should at least try to make your statements seem unbiased. " We will demand he resigns! "
Well, what if Ashes of Creation was wrong? What should we be demanding from them?
I don't think the burden is on Sharif to get KS to do anything for Messmer to retract. Messmer wrote:
In response to PC Gamer's inquiry, Kickstarter told me they've informed Intrepid Studios, which has removed Kickstarter pledges from its referral program.
The final clause in that sentence is the kicker. "...which has removed Kickstarter pledges..." There is no quote here from KS. Messmer wrote a sentence that indicates that Intrepid removed the KS pledges from the program based on being informed by KS. That statement, whether inferred or implied from what KS said, is still Messmer's words. Those words were wrong according to Intrepid. Messmer either needs to demonstrate that his statement is true, based on his conversation with KS (a quote would be the simplest) or retract it due to it being erroneous reporting. KS either told him that Intrepid removed KS pledges from the program or they didn't. Doing nothing, however, is a disservice to PC Gamer readership and Intrepid Studios would be customers.
Given that this whole thing could be resolved by PC Gamer and Messmer by simply supplying the quote from KS AND the fact that they have still not done so makes it appear like they have no quote and reported erroneously.
And I don't buy the whole, "it's a holiday weekend" excuse. You don't drop a bomb a day or two before a holiday weekend, during which you plan to be unavailable unless you intend to let the results of your bomb fester. That's just irresponsible reporting.
What every dev/pub should stand behind: "We're committed to creating a fair playing field for all players. You cannot gain gameplay advantage by spending real money in [INSERT GAME NAME]."
I don't think the burden is on Sharif to get KS to do anything for Messmer to retract. Messmer wrote:
In response to PC Gamer's inquiry, Kickstarter told me they've informed Intrepid Studios, which has removed Kickstarter pledges from its referral program.
The final clause in that sentence is the kicker. "...which has removed Kickstarter pledges..." There is no quote here from KS. Messmer wrote a sentence that indicates that Intrepid removed the KS pledges from the program based on being informed by KS. That statement, whether inferred or implied from what KS said, is still Messmer's words. Those words were wrong according to Intrepid. Messmer either needs to demonstrate that his statement is true, based on his conversation with KS (a quote would be the simplest) or retract it due to it being erroneous reporting. KS either told him that Intrepid removed KS pledges from the program or they didn't. Doing nothing, however, is a disservice to PC Gamer readership and Intrepid Studios would be customers.
Given that this whole thing could be resolved by PC Gamer and Messmer by simply supplying the quote from KS AND the fact that they have still not done so makes it appear like they have no quote and reported erroneously.
And I don't buy the whole, "it's a holiday weekend" excuse. You don't drop a bomb a day or two before a holiday weekend, during which you plan to be unavailable unless you intend to let the results of your bomb fester. That's just irresponsible reporting.
PC Gamer isn't "required to respond" to any demand made by Steven Sharif if they believe the contents are true and correct. They have no obligation to do anything or even reveal the quote if they have it.
I do believe a response will be made by them in the coming days and it may even be a more elaborate one than you think.
I'd argue that most people don't know what clickbait is, or rather that they don't understand the full scope of what clickbait is. Most would agree a title like "Messner gave birth to a three headed dolphin!" would be clickbait... however, the more refined clickbait title would adhere to the practice of keeping the title in the realm of creating a curiosity.
"Clickbait headlines typically aim to exploit the "curiosity gap", providing just enough information to make readers curious, but not enough to satisfy their curiosity without clicking through to the linked content"
What we think we know:
(1) Messner says he shared messages with Kickstarter - he provided no name to attach to the quotes... Kickstarter is not a person - he provided a very simple context for the quotes, context is key - he should post the entire message sent from Kickstarter
(2) Sharif shared messages with Kickstarter - he changed the wording of the referral program - he made a statement that all kickstarter pledges would count
The onus of factual reporting is on Messner in this scenario. Sharif has everything to lose if he's wrong... Messner on the hand loses nothing and goes right back to writing. So, the doubters will doubt, and the believers will believe but only for a few more days. Once the Kickstarter is over and people link their accounts to their pledges, the truth will out.
Looking at Messner, this is from his profile page on PC Gamer:
"Steven is PC Gamer's contributing editor and has a
nose for sniffing out the interesting and unique stories being told
every day in the PC community. He likes RPGs of the MMO persuasion but
doesn't have friends so regular RPGs are good too." http://www.pcgamer.com/author/steven-messner/
If you look at the sort of opinion pieces he writes, it's all clickbait.
As far as I know the PC Gamer article has not been taken down nor has the MassivelyOP one. Neither of them have complied with Steven Sharif. For compliance Steven Sharif would likely need to get Kickstarter, the alleged source, to respond stating they are lying.
They aren't going to just remove the article because he commands them to. That's not how it works. The burden is just as much on him as it is on them for showing evidence required for a retraction.
Haha - they're not fighting a war; these are gamer sites... their bread and butter is clickbait! No one is going to suffer any loss of credibility if they don't comply with a request for retraction. PC Gamer not complying with the request does not legitimize their claim either, it just means they're still getting enough clicks to feel good about leaving it up.
Think about it like this. Do we trust a twenty-three year old source that is well-known in the industry (PC Gamer) or Steven Sharif?
I don't trust anyone that measures their success through advertising.
PC Gamer gets paid by the click....
Intrepid hyped their Kickstarter with something for people to do to help get the word out about their game.
Dude, this isn't even real drama. And it only became drama when PC Gamer said
"which has removed Kickstarter pledges from its referral program." That's the lie and it'll all shake out in the wash.
Will the pledges count towards the referal program? Yes they will.
The right thing to do would be for Messner to apologize for his part in this drama just to stir the pot for more clicks... He could have taken the high road - but he chose clicks over professionalism.
Isn't the entire referral system a form of advertisement and isn't it a way for them to get profit?
Sure it is, but it's not how the game will be measured for success. Messner writes an article and if it produces revenue, he gets to keep writing. If no one uses the referral system, so what.
Alright, well. I think we will just have to agree to disagree and see if there is ever a retraction or response. You and I debating won't resolve anything or help anyone.
Yep. It'll only take a few more days before Kickstarter end + whatever time it takes to get pledges linked to ashesofcreation accounts. That's when we'll know the truth. If that happens and PC Gamer hasn't printed a retraction yet, I'm guessing there might be a lot of people demanding his resignation.
Yup. Kickstarter ends in just a few days. So I'd expect by the first week in July we have all the referrals accounted for in the Intrepid bank. Once that happens it doesn't matter what the author says as he will have lost all credibility. Actually, unless he retracts it on Tuesday (I give him a few days for the Holiday) he will already have lost credibility. As I said earlier, if he lied, IMHO he should be fired and would join any petition to make that happen.
Of course, if July comes around and the funds are still nowhere to be seen...
So my advice is to chill out on the subject until Tues.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I don't think the burden is on Sharif to get KS to do anything for Messmer to retract. Messmer wrote:
In response to PC Gamer's inquiry, Kickstarter told me they've informed Intrepid Studios, which has removed Kickstarter pledges from its referral program.
The final clause in that sentence is the kicker. "...which has removed Kickstarter pledges..." There is no quote here from KS. Messmer wrote a sentence that indicates that Intrepid removed the KS pledges from the program based on being informed by KS. That statement, whether inferred or implied from what KS said, is still Messmer's words. Those words were wrong according to Intrepid. Messmer either needs to demonstrate that his statement is true, based on his conversation with KS (a quote would be the simplest) or retract it due to it being erroneous reporting. KS either told him that Intrepid removed KS pledges from the program or they didn't. Doing nothing, however, is a disservice to PC Gamer readership and Intrepid Studios would be customers.
Given that this whole thing could be resolved by PC Gamer and Messmer by simply supplying the quote from KS AND the fact that they have still not done so makes it appear like they have no quote and reported erroneously.
And I don't buy the whole, "it's a holiday weekend" excuse. You don't drop a bomb a day or two before a holiday weekend, during which you plan to be unavailable unless you intend to let the results of your bomb fester. That's just irresponsible reporting.
PC Gamer isn't "required to respond" to any demand made by Steven Sharif if they believe the contents are true and correct. They have no obligation to do anything or even reveal the quote if they have it.
I do believe a response will be made by them in the coming days and it may even be a more elaborate one than you think.
self-deception and interpersonal deception is more of a psychosis really. They can think it's true and real, but that doesn't make it so.
Like Slapshot1188 said, we should probably just chill out on the subject until Tuesday.
Given that this whole thing could be resolved by PC Gamer and Messmer by simply supplying the quote from KS AND the fact that they have still not done so makes it appear like they have no quote and reported erroneously.
And I don't buy the whole, "it's a holiday weekend" excuse. You don't drop a bomb a day or two before a holiday weekend, during which you plan to be unavailable unless you intend to let the results of your bomb fester. That's just irresponsible reporting.
I think far more likely case is that there's been wrong information given by Kickstarter, or a misunderstanding between PC Gamer and Kickstarter.
Reporters like Steven Messner are not in the habit of destroying their own careers by inventing quotes where none exists. Obviously they have been in contact with Kickstarter because it was reported, and hasn't been denied by Kickstarter either.
But getting contact to one person during weekend can be difficult. Getting multiple people from different businesses into contact during weekend so that a mistake can be cleared up is often impossible. We'll just have to wait for a while.
MY GOD, you guys are still at it, It's like this whole thread are full of bickering old grumpy people at a old folk home.
And your commenting just got you added to the bickering old grumpy people at an old folk home club. Welcome!
Gotta love it when people make comments like this on a forum. As if the forum is meant for...what exactly, if not debate? And why, for g-d's sake do you read forums if not for the conversation/debate/information?
What every dev/pub should stand behind: "We're committed to creating a fair playing field for all players. You cannot gain gameplay advantage by spending real money in [INSERT GAME NAME]."
Given that this whole thing could be resolved by PC Gamer and Messmer by simply supplying the quote from KS AND the fact that they have still not done so makes it appear like they have no quote and reported erroneously.
And I don't buy the whole, "it's a holiday weekend" excuse. You don't drop a bomb a day or two before a holiday weekend, during which you plan to be unavailable unless you intend to let the results of your bomb fester. That's just irresponsible reporting.
I think far more likely case is that there's been wrong information given by Kickstarter, or a misunderstanding between PC Gamer and Kickstarter.
Reporters like Steven Messner are not in the habit of destroying their own careers by inventing quotes where none exists. Obviously they have been in contact with Kickstarter because it was reported, and hasn't been denied by Kickstarter either.
But getting contact to one person during weekend can be difficult. Getting multiple people from different businesses into contact during weekend so that a mistake can be cleared up is often impossible. We'll just have to wait for a while.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
At the bottom of the article, Messner says: "But I still can't shake my skepticism that Ashes of Creation will be
able to escape the pitfalls of Kickstarter while simultaneously pushing
the MMO genre forward. It's an enormous challenge, and one where much
safer bets like Garriott's Shroud of the Avatar and McQuaid's Pantheon:
Rise of the Fallen have arguably failed."
What point is he trying to make? I'm familiar enough with Garriott's Shroud of the Avatar to have a good understanding of why he's failed, but not so much for McQuaid's Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen. Messner makes so many assumptions with his comparisons, and they really don't make any sense to me in the context of the article.
At the bottom of the article, Messner says: "But I still can't shake my skepticism that Ashes of Creation will be
able to escape the pitfalls of Kickstarter while simultaneously pushing
the MMO genre forward. It's an enormous challenge, and one where much
safer bets like Garriott's Shroud of the Avatar and McQuaid's Pantheon:
Rise of the Fallen have arguably failed."
What point is he trying to make? I'm familiar enough with Garriott's Shroud of the Avatar to have a good understanding of why he's failed, but not so much for McQuaid's Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen. Messner makes so many assumptions with his comparisons, and they really don't make any sense to me in the context of the article.
Agreed, yet it comes as no surprise from someone who uses Reddit as a source to write from...
He's making the same mistake many around these parts do, confusing the anecdotal (sota) as well as the inevitable for a failure of the platform (we see this group think around here a lot).
MMOs require a long development cycle, yet people act like a few years is too long, or a sign of trouble. Then they run with that as some type of fact proving it just doesn't work. Or worse it's all a facade.
You simply can't reason with this type of thought process, or look for good points in it, it's all born of an ingrained cynical outlook common in such forms of group think. All it takes is for it to seem like a popular mentality for more and more to buy in.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
is this really so much of an issue to start a crusade against it?
" All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. "
LOL Dude. You are a joke.
So this article seems to be have all his fears addressed point by point. He just remains skeptical. Which is normal with kickstarter. You and this article have told us nothing new. It was already pointed out he doesn't have a legal obligation to pay anyone back if the project isn't released. He has said he will though which counts for something.
It is up to the individual to decide if he is being dishonest or not. Welcome to kickstarter?
Your judgment is clouded.
Your bias is confirmed.
Can all you guys stay focused on the article? As much fun as all your back and forth sniping may seem it's really kind of lame.
I for one am interested in finding out if in fact they really retroactively changed the referral program. If they did this I will absolutely pull my pledge. I have over 500 referrals. That's bullshit. Most people will pledge and get free months subs.. I know a few that went in for the $400+ tier for lifetime sub which would in effect mean no payout.
For a guy who's name is a hockey reference you seem unusually upset about a fight breaking out in the middle of the main event
At the bottom of the article, Messner says: "But I still can't shake my skepticism that Ashes of Creation will be
able to escape the pitfalls of Kickstarter while simultaneously pushing
the MMO genre forward. It's an enormous challenge, and one where much
safer bets like Garriott's Shroud of the Avatar and McQuaid's Pantheon:
Rise of the Fallen have arguably failed."
What point is he trying to make? I'm familiar enough with Garriott's Shroud of the Avatar to have a good understanding of why he's failed, but not so much for McQuaid's Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen. Messner makes so many assumptions with his comparisons, and they really don't make any sense to me in the context of the article.
Agreed, yet it comes as no surprise from someone who uses Reddit as a source to write from...
He's making the same mistake many around these parts do, confusing the anecdotal (sota) as well as the inevitable for a failure of the platform (we see this group think around here a lot).
MMOs require a long development cycle, yet people act like a few years is too long, or a sign of trouble. Then they run with that as some type of fact proving it just doesn't work. Or worse it's all a facade.
You simply can't reason with this type of thought process, or look for good points in it, it's all born of an ingrained cynical outlook common in such forms of group think. All it takes is for it to seem like a popular mentality for more and more to buy in.
Much of that is true... but when developers continue to publicize unreasonable timelines they feed into this. Even AoC Kickstarter for the $25 tier which has no early access at all. Just the regular game... shows a delivery date of Dec 2018. That's what makes people think games like this are further along in the pipeline. On my multi-gaming guild website just a few days ago someone was asking to have a chapter created for AoC so that we could start preparing for release... no joke.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I find it funny, when positive information about a game is revealed, that thread dies in a few days or a week at best. Something negative and the thread goes on and on, even when its lost its point. (((eye roll)))
I find it funny, when positive information about a game is revealed, that thread dies in a few days or a week at best. Something negative and the thread goes on and on, even when its lost its point. (((eye roll)))
It's what passes for MMO hot topics these days: not how a real released game plays right now and what features it has or doesn't, but how a game we may or may not see 4 or 5 years down the line raises capital.
That and whether mmorpg.com should be covering a game are now the two hottest topics in these forums. Maybe a site name change to gamingfutures.com is in order?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I find it funny, when positive information about a game is revealed, that thread dies in a few days or a week at best. Something negative and the thread goes on and on, even when its lost its point. (((eye roll)))
It's what passes for MMO hot topics these days: not how a real released game plays right now and what features it has or doesn't, but how a game we may or may not see 4 or 5 years down the line raises capital.
That and whether mmorpg.com should be covering a game are now the two hottest topics in these forums. Maybe a site name change to gamingfutures.com is in order?
gaminggossip.gg
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Comments
Sure it is, but it's not how the game will be measured for success. Messner writes an article and if it produces revenue, he gets to keep writing. If no one uses the referral system, so what.
Yep. It'll only take a few more days before Kickstarter end + whatever time it takes to get pledges linked to ashesofcreation accounts. That's when we'll know the truth. If that happens and PC Gamer hasn't printed a retraction yet, I'm guessing there might be a lot of people demanding his resignation.
Well, what if Ashes of Creation was wrong? What should we be demanding from them?
The final clause in that sentence is the kicker. "...which has removed Kickstarter pledges..." There is no quote here from KS. Messmer wrote a sentence that indicates that Intrepid removed the KS pledges from the program based on being informed by KS. That statement, whether inferred or implied from what KS said, is still Messmer's words. Those words were wrong according to Intrepid. Messmer either needs to demonstrate that his statement is true, based on his conversation with KS (a quote would be the simplest) or retract it due to it being erroneous reporting. KS either told him that Intrepid removed KS pledges from the program or they didn't. Doing nothing, however, is a disservice to PC Gamer readership and Intrepid Studios would be customers.
Given that this whole thing could be resolved by PC Gamer and Messmer by simply supplying the quote from KS AND the fact that they have still not done so makes it appear like they have no quote and reported erroneously.
And I don't buy the whole, "it's a holiday weekend" excuse. You don't drop a bomb a day or two before a holiday weekend, during which you plan to be unavailable unless you intend to let the results of your bomb fester. That's just irresponsible reporting.
I do believe a response will be made by them in the coming days and it may even be a more elaborate one than you think.
Of course, if July comes around and the funds are still nowhere to be seen...
So my advice is to chill out on the subject until Tues.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Like Slapshot1188 said, we should probably just chill out on the subject until Tuesday.
Reporters like Steven Messner are not in the habit of destroying their own careers by inventing quotes where none exists. Obviously they have been in contact with Kickstarter because it was reported, and hasn't been denied by Kickstarter either.
But getting contact to one person during weekend can be difficult. Getting multiple people from different businesses into contact during weekend so that a mistake can be cleared up is often impossible. We'll just have to wait for a while.
He also will be on stream here in three hours:
Just a quick google.
Gotta love it when people make comments like this on a forum. As if the forum is meant for...what exactly, if not debate? And why, for g-d's sake do you read forums if not for the conversation/debate/information?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What point is he trying to make? I'm familiar enough with Garriott's Shroud of the Avatar to have a good understanding of why he's failed, but not so much for McQuaid's Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen. Messner makes so many assumptions with his comparisons, and they really don't make any sense to me in the context of the article.
He's making the same mistake many around these parts do, confusing the anecdotal (sota) as well as the inevitable for a failure of the platform (we see this group think around here a lot).
MMOs require a long development cycle, yet people act like a few years is too long, or a sign of trouble. Then they run with that as some type of fact proving it just doesn't work. Or worse it's all a facade.
You simply can't reason with this type of thought process, or look for good points in it, it's all born of an ingrained cynical outlook common in such forms of group think. All it takes is for it to seem like a popular mentality for more and more to buy in.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
That and whether mmorpg.com should be covering a game are now the two hottest topics in these forums. Maybe a site name change to gamingfutures.com is in order?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED