If I were going to play Pantheon it would be for the group play. Assuming it has the type of grouping we did in early EQ. I mean the relaxed, casual (gasp, I used the C word) informal and fun grouping that we did while leveling up our first characters back in the old days. I loved that and really miss it.
I think Pantheon might actually be like that at first but unfortunately I'm even more certain that that enjoyable part of the game will fizzle out at high levels to be replaced by raiding. Not fun, not relaxed, highly structured and pre-scheduled, and generally just the sort of thing that would make most sane people with lives ask themselves, "why am I doing this?"
In fact, I actually feel like Pantheon will be the final nail in the coffin of group based games because of what they are doing. The end game is going to kill it and the general perception will be that games designed for grouping are not viable. Because for some reason most people seem to be unable to separate casual grouping and hardcore raiding in their minds.
This is what I believe; that Pantheon is going to be the end for the one thing I want most out of MMOs. Because it's going to have what I want but commit suicide by having a late game focus on something that very, very few people want. Hardcore raiding will sink the ship but it's going to take grouping down with it. So for me, watching this unfold is basically like watching the approach of the end of MMOs. Or at least the end of any type of MMO I might want to play.
If I were going to play Pantheon it would be for the group play. Assuming it has the type of grouping we did in early EQ. I mean the relaxed, casual (gasp, I used the C word) informal and fun grouping that we did while leveling up our first characters back in the old days. I loved that and really miss it.
I think Pantheon might actually be like that at first but unfortunately I'm even more certain that that enjoyable part of the game will fizzle out at high levels to be replaced by raiding. Not fun, not relaxed, highly structured and pre-scheduled, and generally just the sort of thing that would make most sane people with lives ask themselves, "why am I doing this?"
In fact, I actually feel like Pantheon will be the final nail in the coffin of group based games because of what they are doing. The end game is going to kill it.
VR said that the content ratio will be 60% Group, 20% Solo, 20% Raids, not sure why you are certain the Raids will kill this game or the niche it represent. You also need to keep in mind that the Journey in Pantheon will be much longer than the average MMO, so it will take many months before you can start worrying about the end game.
If I were going to play Pantheon it would be for the group play. Assuming it has the type of grouping we did in early EQ. I mean the relaxed, casual (gasp, I used the C word) informal and fun grouping that we did while leveling up our first characters back in the old days. I loved that and really miss it.
I think Pantheon might actually be like that at first but unfortunately I'm even more certain that that enjoyable part of the game will fizzle out at high levels to be replaced by raiding. Not fun, not relaxed, highly structured and pre-scheduled, and generally just the sort of thing that would make most sane people with lives ask themselves, "why am I doing this?"
In fact, I actually feel like Pantheon will be the final nail in the coffin of group based games because of what they are doing. The end game is going to kill it.
VR said that the content ratio will be 60% Group, 20% Solo, 20% Raids, not sure why you are certain the Raids will kill this game or the niche it represent. You also need to keep in mind that the Journey in Pantheon will be much longer than the average MMO, so it will take many months before you can start worrying about the end game.
Yes, I've heard/read that before but I'm sure that ratio is misleading. People talk about it as if that ratio will apply throughout the game while in reality the solo and group part will be in the earlier part of the game and then raiding will be at the endgame. So pre-endgame it would be more like 40% solo, 60% group and 0% raid and then at the endgame it will be more like 0% solo, 0% group and 100% raid. I mean, come on----you know that's how it will be. I seriously doubt they are going to have any type of end game progression that's not raiding.
And if it's not going to be all about raid progression at the end then what's the deal with the hardcore raiding guilds recruiting on the forums? If that's not what the game is about then why don't the devs tell those guys, "Hey guys, you've gotten the wrong idea about this game."
Ok, and the thing about the "journey" taking longer in Pantheon. I don't doubt that this is true but I also think that some people are deluding themselves about how it will be. It may be slower than most games but it's not going to be like it was back in old EQ. People aren't going to behave the same way that they did back then. Even if they aren't trying to rush to the end they still aren't going to do anywhere near as much pointless messing around as some of us did in EQ. You can't turn back time. People can't unlearn what they have learned from years of gaming. Even if the level grind and experience penalty for dying is as harsh as it was in EQ people would level up faster just for the simple fact that we're all much more savvy about these games now than we were back then. So, despite the best hopes of some people I seriously doubt that the "journey" is going to be a magic bullet for long term player retention.
If I were going to play Pantheon it would be for the group play. Assuming it has the type of grouping we did in early EQ. I mean the relaxed, casual (gasp, I used the C word) informal and fun grouping that we did while leveling up our first characters back in the old days. I loved that and really miss it.
I think Pantheon might actually be like that at first but unfortunately I'm even more certain that that enjoyable part of the game will fizzle out at high levels to be replaced by raiding. Not fun, not relaxed, highly structured and pre-scheduled, and generally just the sort of thing that would make most sane people with lives ask themselves, "why am I doing this?"
In fact, I actually feel like Pantheon will be the final nail in the coffin of group based games because of what they are doing. The end game is going to kill it.
VR said that the content ratio will be 60% Group, 20% Solo, 20% Raids, not sure why you are certain the Raids will kill this game or the niche it represent. You also need to keep in mind that the Journey in Pantheon will be much longer than the average MMO, so it will take many months before you can start worrying about the end game.
EQ1 had far less than 20% raid content until Kunark. The initial planes (Fear and Hate, and later Sky), 2 dragons, a fish (Phinneas) and Mistmore. There may be a couple I've forgotten, but that is far closer to 1% than 20%. I doubt that VR's assurance satisfies @Neanderthal's concerns. With a goal of 20% raid content, it certainly sounds like they are planning for a more elaborate raid-oriented end-game. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I have no idea where you got those numbers, but as far as I know there's not a set in stone percent of how much solo/group/raid content there will be in the game. The devs have only confirmed that the focus of the game is grouping and that solo levelling will only be possible by some classes.
1. The game design interests me and if they can pull it off, then I'll be happy. I like the ideas presented, especially the focus on group play. Also, I hope they add a cash shop because I know it will piss off @Nanfoodle . 2. macOS client. I want to be able to take my Win machine out back, douse it with gasoline, set it on fire, and gleefully dance around the flames. I've been trying to get rid of Windows for years and gaming is the only thing preventing it. One more MMO with a mac client and I'm golden.
I would prefer a very, very long curved skill based system over class/level. Zones kinda turns me off in 2017.
Other than that this game has some interesting concepts.
That would, in my opinion, be one of the biggest improvements MMOs could make. They really need to transition from level-based advancement to skill-based. I don't hold it against EQ because it was essentially table-top Dungeons & Dragons converted into a computer game. And AD&D was level advancement. But devs of MMOs which followed should have recognized that acquiring skills is superior to acquiring levels. However, the response always seems to be that it will never happen because leveling is a simpler model.
Anyway, for me, I plan to play Pantheon in the hopes that it will be a nice escape from reality and because there's nothing else in gaming that really interests me atm. We'll see.
Have you looked into Saga of Lucimia?
It seems like it will be similar to Pantheon in that it is trying to go back to a more old school style of gameplay...only it will be a skill based system.
It is currently in development...slightly further along than Pantheon.
Saga of Lucimia is further along in development than Pantheon? I don't think that is correct at all.
Im unsure if you are thinking Pantheon is further into development than it actually is or if you believe SoL is further behind? SoL has already had some limited player testing. Pantheon on the other hand still hasn't released map info on a whole continent where 3 of the starting races cities are located. At this point I'm pretty sure Whitethaw had been pushed back and won't be available on release. Those races starting cities will have to be retconned.
I would prefer a very, very long curved skill based system over class/level. Zones kinda turns me off in 2017.
Other than that this game has some interesting concepts.
That would, in my opinion, be one of the biggest improvements MMOs could make. They really need to transition from level-based advancement to skill-based. I don't hold it against EQ because it was essentially table-top Dungeons & Dragons converted into a computer game. And AD&D was level advancement. But devs of MMOs which followed should have recognized that acquiring skills is superior to acquiring levels. However, the response always seems to be that it will never happen because leveling is a simpler model.
Anyway, for me, I plan to play Pantheon in the hopes that it will be a nice escape from reality and because there's nothing else in gaming that really interests me atm. We'll see.
Have you looked into Saga of Lucimia?
It seems like it will be similar to Pantheon in that it is trying to go back to a more old school style of gameplay...only it will be a skill based system.
It is currently in development...slightly further along than Pantheon.
Saga of Lucimia is further along in development than Pantheon? I don't think that is correct at all.
Im unsure if you are thinking Pantheon is further into development than it actually is or if you believe SoL is further behind? SoL has already had some limited player testing. Pantheon on the other hand still hasn't released map info on a whole continent where 3 of the starting races cities are located. At this point I'm pretty sure Whitethaw had been pushed back and won't be available on release. Those races starting cities will have to be retconned.
SoL allowing players into the game for early testing, doesn't mean it is further along in development. It just means they chose to let players in earlier.
If you compare the recent Pantheon twitch streams to the gameplay videos from SoL alpha testers, it's night and day the progress between the two games. Not to knock the folks at SoL, I know they're working very hard. But they certainly aren't as far a long in the dev process as Pantheon IMHO. Not even close.
I'm seeking: PvE focus, group centric gameplay, no quest-grind, virtual fantasy world that doesn't tell me in every corner it's a game i'm playing.
I agree. Problem is it's almost always convenience-oriented or a hack. Like a flashing symbol above a quest or merchant NPC is convenience. Or a NPC that summons you when you run to prevent kiting is a hack. I hate both, but they tend to be popular. I might include instances here too, but they're really both convenience and a hack. You may not agree with my examples. Just my own perspective.
Getting sense of adventure back and actually playing with other people instead of qrinding quests single. Rush of adrenaline of high risk and and reward is great. I hope this game will be something like EQ in terms of difficulty and adventure.
This is really all im looking for. I want to start up an MMO and go exploring while meeting people to go do things with. Thats pretty much it. No MMO has even attempted to explore this basic idea in recent times. Just give me that MMO aspect and less of that "Am I playing Zelda?" aspect and we are golden.
I'll play it because it promises to bring community back to a non-PvP focused game. Even WoW used to have this despite its, sometimes, toxic environment. I still remember our server's "class clown" from back in the vanilla days. Since the arrival of automatic dungeon tools, mega servers, phasing, and extreme instancing, community has degraded in the genre as a whole. It didn't have to, as developers could have used other tools to emphasize that aspect, but "monkey see, monkey do," I suppose, and here we are where community is the last aspect considered when developing a game for a genre founded on community interaction.
Pantheon promises to make community interaction a requirement, not only encouraged, but necessary to do all but the most basic things. The glory days of EQ, FFXI, and SWG are gone, but at least with Pantheon, we can get to know people by reputation, ability, and class choice again. I want to see my friends list grow again. Most games I play these days I don't even need one.
Getting sense of adventure back and actually playing with other people instead of qrinding quests single. Rush of adrenaline of high risk and and reward is great. I hope this game will be something like EQ in terms of difficulty and adventure.
This is really all im looking for. I want to start up an MMO and go exploring while meeting people to go do things with. Thats pretty much it. No MMO has even attempted to explore this basic idea in recent times. Just give me that MMO aspect and less of that "Am I playing Zelda?" aspect and we are golden.
Interesting that you mention Zelda. The latest installment is a 100 times more of a real, interactive and explorable world then any MMO I know. The only thing you can't do is meet other people, but its world is an exciting thing of beauty and free to explore.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I will most likely try it because I didn't play original EQ1 (though I could have, I'm old enough), couldn't play Vanguard because the computer I had at the time lagged too bad, and I enjoyed playing EQ2 until endgame (even in 2014). But if endgame is mostly just gear grind and raiding, I don't see myself continuing to play it after reaching max level with one or two characters.
I haven't read much about it, but I will soon. I hope they make it more realisitc with things like hunger, thirst, weight, and encumbrance, such as were originally present in the EQ games. Actually, I hope they make it more realistic than those games attempted to be
Roleplayinn.com - New forum for people who love role-playing of all kinds - tabletop/pencil & paper, live-action, and role-playing in mmorpgs.
Getting sense of adventure back and actually playing with other people instead of qrinding quests single. Rush of adrenaline of high risk and and reward is great. I hope this game will be something like EQ in terms of difficulty and adventure.
This is really all im looking for. I want to start up an MMO and go exploring while meeting people to go do things with. Thats pretty much it. No MMO has even attempted to explore this basic idea in recent times. Just give me that MMO aspect and less of that "Am I playing Zelda?" aspect and we are golden.
Interesting that you mention Zelda. The latest installment is a 100 times more of a real, interactive and explorable world then any MMO I know. The only thing you can't do is meet other people, but its world is an exciting thing of beauty and free to explore.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Thing is, interacting with other people should be first and foremost in MMOs, it's their greatest advantage over other game types.
Their gameplay features come secondary and as much as possible should be focused on increasing player interaction.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Getting sense of adventure back and actually playing with other people instead of qrinding quests single. Rush of adrenaline of high risk and and reward is great. I hope this game will be something like EQ in terms of difficulty and adventure.
This is really all im looking for. I want to start up an MMO and go exploring while meeting people to go do things with. Thats pretty much it. No MMO has even attempted to explore this basic idea in recent times. Just give me that MMO aspect and less of that "Am I playing Zelda?" aspect and we are golden.
Interesting that you mention Zelda. The latest installment is a 100 times more of a real, interactive and explorable world then any MMO I know. The only thing you can't do is meet other people, but its world is an exciting thing of beauty and free to explore.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Thing is, interacting with other people should be first and foremost in MMOs, it's their greatest advantage over other game types.
Their gameplay features come secondary and as much as possible should be focused on increasing player interaction.
While I agree with the sentiments of 'interaction should be important' and 'MMOs greatest advantage is interaction', I think the players have changed to a more solo-centric playstyle. Modern players simply don't want to rely on other players for anything -- crafting, leveling, XP, making money, etc. You can go blithely along in games like ST:TOR, LotRO and even ESO:Morrowind without ever talking to another human player, even the occasionally insipid world chat. It may even be advantageous to team up to do some quests or kill some boss mob, but a vast majority simply chooses to try to do something solo. It's that tendency to choose a solo effort that may be the biggest hurdle that Pantheon may face.
Also, the 'interaction should be important' aspect really needs something other than a combat system, a crafting/harvesting system and a semi-structured (frequently offline) marketplace to drive player interaction. Politics, religion, legal systems or even social (RPG) events could supplement the types of interaction available, making interaction more important.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
@Mendel - I heartily agree that combat shouldn't be the only thing motivating me to interact with other players in an mmorpg. However, while I may attempt to solo things when I first start playing an mmorpg, if I discover that I need help to accomplish objectives, I have no problem with that.
Roleplayinn.com - New forum for people who love role-playing of all kinds - tabletop/pencil & paper, live-action, and role-playing in mmorpgs.
While I agree with the sentiments of 'interaction should be important' and 'MMOs greatest advantage is interaction', I think the players have changed to a more solo-centric playstyle. Modern players simply don't want to rely on other players for anything -- crafting, leveling, XP, making money, etc.
Yeah...we already know that. But we have 1000s of games for those people, we don't need another one. Pantheon has to be different or else I will keep playing ESO or BDO, simple as that.
I want something TOTALLY different from all the shit released the last 10 years, how difficult is to understand that there are plenty of people like me who like games where success depends on player interaction.
Note dude, I am playing two solo centric games at the moment (BDO - ESO), and I am having fun, but my ideal game is something between EQ and Vanilla WoW, which at the moment it is not available unfortunately. I hope Pantheon is going to be it, so no catering for Solo/Casual crowd please, I don't want to hear this BS.
I would say if people don't want to intereact, they should find another genre, but the truth is there's plenty of options that accommodate that very playstyle. So I'll just say they should find another game.
Until mmos become massively multiplayer again and push interaction and relying on other players in all facets, they will continue to be unimmersive online single player games that cannot retain a playerbase.
Just because someone doesn't socialize very often does not mean they are trolling the boards asking for solo friendly game changes. If Pantheon is to be a living world, it will benefit from having all sorts of people in it. Not just one type of personality.
For example, I knew a girl in EQ who was in my guild. She liked to do two things. Solo, and make people food. That was her whole EQ experience. What a great lady. And what a loss it would have been had she been encouraged to move on because she was too casual.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Comments
If I were going to play Pantheon it would be for the group play. Assuming it has the type of grouping we did in early EQ. I mean the relaxed, casual (gasp, I used the C word) informal and fun grouping that we did while leveling up our first characters back in the old days. I loved that and really miss it.
I think Pantheon might actually be like that at first but unfortunately I'm even more certain that that enjoyable part of the game will fizzle out at high levels to be replaced by raiding. Not fun, not relaxed, highly structured and pre-scheduled, and generally just the sort of thing that would make most sane people with lives ask themselves, "why am I doing this?"
In fact, I actually feel like Pantheon will be the final nail in the coffin of group based games because of what they are doing. The end game is going to kill it and the general perception will be that games designed for grouping are not viable. Because for some reason most people seem to be unable to separate casual grouping and hardcore raiding in their minds.
This is what I believe; that Pantheon is going to be the end for the one thing I want most out of MMOs. Because it's going to have what I want but commit suicide by having a late game focus on something that very, very few people want. Hardcore raiding will sink the ship but it's going to take grouping down with it. So for me, watching this unfold is basically like watching the approach of the end of MMOs. Or at least the end of any type of MMO I might want to play.
You also need to keep in mind that the Journey in Pantheon will be much longer than the average MMO, so it will take many months before you can start worrying about the end game.
Yes, I've heard/read that before but I'm sure that ratio is misleading. People talk about it as if that ratio will apply throughout the game while in reality the solo and group part will be in the earlier part of the game and then raiding will be at the endgame. So pre-endgame it would be more like 40% solo, 60% group and 0% raid and then at the endgame it will be more like 0% solo, 0% group and 100% raid. I mean, come on----you know that's how it will be. I seriously doubt they are going to have any type of end game progression that's not raiding.
And if it's not going to be all about raid progression at the end then what's the deal with the hardcore raiding guilds recruiting on the forums? If that's not what the game is about then why don't the devs tell those guys, "Hey guys, you've gotten the wrong idea about this game."
Ok, and the thing about the "journey" taking longer in Pantheon. I don't doubt that this is true but I also think that some people are deluding themselves about how it will be. It may be slower than most games but it's not going to be like it was back in old EQ. People aren't going to behave the same way that they did back then. Even if they aren't trying to rush to the end they still aren't going to do anywhere near as much pointless messing around as some of us did in EQ. You can't turn back time. People can't unlearn what they have learned from years of gaming. Even if the level grind and experience penalty for dying is as harsh as it was in EQ people would level up faster just for the simple fact that we're all much more savvy about these games now than we were back then. So, despite the best hopes of some people I seriously doubt that the "journey" is going to be a magic bullet for long term player retention.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
1. The game design interests me and if they can pull it off, then I'll be happy. I like the ideas presented, especially the focus on group play. Also, I hope they add a cash shop because I know it will piss off @Nanfoodle .
2. macOS client. I want to be able to take my Win machine out back, douse it with gasoline, set it on fire, and gleefully dance around the flames. I've been trying to get rid of Windows for years and gaming is the only thing preventing it. One more MMO with a mac client and I'm golden.
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This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
If you compare the recent Pantheon twitch streams to the gameplay videos from SoL alpha testers, it's night and day the progress between the two games. Not to knock the folks at SoL, I know they're working very hard. But they certainly aren't as far a long in the dev process as Pantheon IMHO. Not even close.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
That dynamic always makes for spectacular fun.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Pantheon promises to make community interaction a requirement, not only encouraged, but necessary to do all but the most basic things. The glory days of EQ, FFXI, and SWG are gone, but at least with Pantheon, we can get to know people by reputation, ability, and class choice again. I want to see my friends list grow again. Most games I play these days I don't even need one.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I haven't read much about it, but I will soon. I hope they make it more realisitc with things like hunger, thirst, weight, and encumbrance, such as were originally present in the EQ games. Actually, I hope they make it more realistic than those games attempted to be
Their gameplay features come secondary and as much as possible should be focused on increasing player interaction.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Also, the 'interaction should be important' aspect really needs something other than a combat system, a crafting/harvesting system and a semi-structured (frequently offline) marketplace to drive player interaction. Politics, religion, legal systems or even social (RPG) events could supplement the types of interaction available, making interaction more important.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
But we have 1000s of games for those people, we don't need another one.
Pantheon has to be different or else I will keep playing ESO or BDO, simple as that.
I want something TOTALLY different from all the shit released the last 10 years, how difficult is to understand that there are plenty of people like me who like games where success depends on player interaction.
Note dude, I am playing two solo centric games at the moment (BDO - ESO), and I am having fun, but my ideal game is something between EQ and Vanilla WoW, which at the moment it is not available unfortunately.
I hope Pantheon is going to be it, so no catering for Solo/Casual crowd please, I don't want to hear this BS.
Until mmos become massively multiplayer again and push interaction and relying on other players in all facets, they will continue to be unimmersive online single player games that cannot retain a playerbase.
For example, I knew a girl in EQ who was in my guild. She liked to do two things. Solo, and make people food. That was her whole EQ experience. What a great lady. And what a loss it would have been had she been encouraged to move on because she was too casual.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests