Should there be NO trading at all in MMOs?

TheScavenger

So I was thinking. Albion Online semi-does this already. If you trade too many items to someone, in their TOS they say that is a bannable offense. But then why have trading to begin with? It was like it wanted no one to trade with each other, but were too conservative of going all the way and just banning trade all together.

Imagine...the only trade is on an AH or broker or whatever it is to trade. No spam. No gold spam. No illegal gold sellers. No hacked items to trade. No twinks (that is HUGE, and almost certainly what Albion was going for in that rule, is to make twinks far harder to do)...since twinks 100% ruin PvP in MMOs. For example, in WoW I like to do battlegrounds...but because items make such a difference...someone with heirlooms and overpowered enchantments can easily dominate PvP in that game. Sure at endgame I can ignore it, but while leveling? That ruins the whole experience of leveling through PvP.

So Albion way did this to prevent twinks AND decrease cheating/hacking/gold seller influence in their MMO. However, fearful of people rebelling of no trading at all...they pretty much made it a bannable offense if you trade too much. Look it up, its right in their TOS (terms of service).

Section 10-10.6
https://albiononline.com/en/terms_and_conditions

This is at 10.2

If the User trades or exchanges Virtual Property in a large-scale without a comparable value obtained within the Game, then it is assumed that the User violates this rule. The User is entitled to provide counter-evidence.

So I talk about Albion a lot, but this isn't an actual Albion thread, but its first MMO to ban for trading...but this I feel is a HUGE boost to both PvP (decreasing twinks) and decreasing cheaters and gold sellers at the same time.

This made me think that if Albion went all the way...why should an MMO have trading at all? If gonna ban for trading, what is the purpose of it anyway? Just have an auction house/broker or whatever. Regulate the market to a degree, make it so no one can trade with each other, including peoples alts (to also prevent twinks) and I think this could improve things a lot. Sure old MMOs you stood around spamming chat to sell an item...but that is a thing of old. 99% of MMOs have an auction house/broker or whatever, so what is the point of trading to begin with? The only reason is to make an OP character that 1 hits everything it sees...which completely voids any challenge.

And removing trade would kill any gold seller influence the game has. Sure they can log on to peoples accounts I guess to do the "service", but jokes on them, now the account is hacked lol.

SEANMCAD

what about just the opposite direction.
even as far as giving players tools to allow them to trade even more.

how about that?

Tamanous

SEANMCAD said:

what about just the opposite direction.
even as far as giving players tools to allow them to trade even more.

how about that?

I fully agree. It's a role playing world and a very simple concept (or should be anyway) . Can you walk? Talk? Hand an item to someone? These are f'ing basic things you emulate to make an immersive world.

Any restrictions on the most basic humanoid functions is frankly a gimmick and an artificial limitation set by game design (and often because in game economy is hard wired to real money transactions). Players really need to start questioning these things.

Forgrimm

Doesn't BDO basically have no player-to-player trading?

SEANMCAD

Forgrimm said:

Doesn't BDO basically have no player-to-player trading?

if that is the case I wonder what the reasoning is.

I rather like the idea of escalating player trading to real money levels as an experiment.

its not like real life economies dont run on visualizing things because it absolutely does

holdenhamlet

BDO has no trading.  You can trade things like food, but nothing substantial. 

People will always want to trade for benefit- it's fundamental human nature.  By taking it away from players, you make the Devs the monopoly, and the only thing you can trade with is dollars.  Works out nice for them, but it neuters the player experience and is in direct conflict with the reason these games are online at all (to interact with other people in a meaningful/fun way).

SEANMCAD

holdenhamlet said:

BDO has no trading.  You can trade things like food, but nothing substantial. 

People will always want to trade for benefit- it's fundamental human nature.  By taking it away from players, you make the Devs the monopoly, and the only thing you can trade with is dollars.  Works out nice for them, but it neuters the player experience and is in direct conflict with the reason these games are online at all (to interact with other people in a meaningful/fun way).

yeah it sounds like they are taking away one of about only 2 reasons to have an MMO in the first place.

holdenhamlet

SEANMCAD said:

holdenhamlet said:

BDO has no trading.  You can trade things like food, but nothing substantial. 

People will always want to trade for benefit- it's fundamental human nature.  By taking it away from players, you make the Devs the monopoly, and the only thing you can trade with is dollars.  Works out nice for them, but it neuters the player experience and is in direct conflict with the reason these games are online at all (to interact with other people in a meaningful/fun way).

yeah it sounds like they are taking away one of about only 2 reasons to have an MMO in the first place.

I honestly think there's only one reason- for a unique human interaction.  I still remember and will always probably fondly remember the time when I started FFXI and a japaense guy helped me find my first mission quest.  The fact that someone from across the globe spent 20 minutes helping me, a guy who's language I couldn't even speak (spoke through the in-game phrase translator) just blew me away and still does.

Memorable moments from MMOs come from human interaction.  That time those guys did that thing that was so crazy.  Fun competition in pvp.  Working together in PVE for a common goal.  Everything else is basically meaningless compared to this.

Renoaku

Okay well lets keep this simple, I got banned myself for trading between two games and found out it was illegal to accept large amount of items or currency with nothing in return, but I am not really posting here to argue about the ban even though they claim it was for RMT which they can't prove and I know what I did when I accepted the currency I do have a problem with how I was banned and how it all went down, plus I lost my faith, and trust in their company. but without starting a debate here too here goes.

To keep this a bit constructive, but long.

I think the biggest issue is this company wants to keep things fair, and I can respect them for this I wouldn't want cheaters, hackers, or bots / illegal currency farmers in my game, this being said there is a few concerns and things this company must do to prevent cheating or it will happen.

a.) This games Terms & Conditions is a problem, as I argued before its wrote by a German Lawyer in a way as being a U.S Citizen it was totally hard for me to understand 10-10.6 myself when it came to getting banned in the first place This should be fixed.

b.) The second problem is the way the currency system works allowing people to buy Gold from SBI is allowed, but the problem is being immediately able to convert it between Silver, and Gold, and Gold To Silver, this creates a problem, using myself as an example if I commit Credit-Card fraud of my mothers card or myself I can buy $100 worth of gold currency I suppose maybe no limits and convert to silver buying up peoples silver, and then laundering out the currency by various methods I can describe here so for example I take $100 worth of gold convert it to silver I then have the ability to.

. Sell it for real money on a 3rd party trading site there is a lot of them illegally which is what some china companies do.

. Use it to buy stuff on the market and pass it to guilds other guild members or alts

.  Sell it to people using the acution house method so they can avoid a ban which ruins the free economy because if people can't list their own price and sell an item for 1 piece of wood for 1 million silver then its no longer a free economy.

. Let other people kill me in game with a load of items on me and take them

Either way in the end SBI loses money once the charge-back happens, and this is why this should change because people will abuse it, I am not saying everyone will, because besides getting involved with an Unfortunate ban I think I was one of the honest players in this game who would never commit fraud, or cheat, but regardless some people are guilds will cheat to get ahead and stuff.

What Should Happen?
So adding restrictions on trading currency for example for a newbie account who just created an account would be able to purchase $100 of currency or gold from SBI, but then only be able to trade after 2 weeks for exchange to silver, or giving the gold away to others other than cash shop items this prevents fraud, as long as cash shop items or premiums can't be traded and gives SBI the time to ban offenders.

As a player adds 2FA, and time goes by a person gets reputation status gained and is able to buy and eventually immediately trade with other players this prevents gold spammers and it has to be done with purchases so Charge-Backs happen the user gets banned thus preventing illegal gold sellers.

Respectfully and personally I am not afraid to commit fraud myself, Its my morale, and respect that would keep me from doing such, but I know how to mask my identity online, and do acts of fraud its very easy I would never get caught if I didn't want to be and I could teach others how to do it as well easily, even all these gold sellers who already do it I could improve their methods myself If I so wanted to, my point being its easy and systems have to be put in place to prevent it other than bans because a person who does this doesn't care if their account gets banned or not and it does disrupt the game of regular players.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not all RMT Is bad version?

I don't see RMT as a bad thing, when put into a game properly for example buying gold from SBI, and trading it to silver regardless of how you want to look at it is RMT, same thing with the new game called "Cross Out" "EVE Online" "Arche Age" even "World OF Warcraft" the only thing is it doesn't allow people to cash out, although in a game that did allow people to cash out real money for in game items such as Second Life & Entropia Univerise wouldn't be so badif it used RMT built directly into the game, and all in game cash is valued at real money + conversion to cash out and so on. Could be great IMO.

In the case of Albion.

The big question is why play if you can get banned for trading in a sand-box game, well this is an issue.

. For starters I played Arche Age with 7 Accounts, Legally for about 2 years, I put over $1000 USD Real Money into the game, and when trion kept screwing it over about over a year into the game I decided to quit, I gave away over 20+ 24x24 properties, all my upgraded houses and everyine FOR FREE,  had a couple of old people offer to give me Albion currency for my favors from the EU server which is thus why I got banned myself, but giving away stuff FREE Does happen. (**Note**) When I say put $1000 USD or more this was into (APEX) Arche Age legal currency sold over 100 APEX's, and some people might remember me on the "Tahyang" server.

Now assuming SBI, does something like I said above to prevent fraud then they only have to deal with RMT, and Gold Sellers will still happen, and sure people will see it unfair that I can throw down $100 and buy gold from a 3rd party for example lets say 800 gold or silver from a 3rd party but the whole goal here is to prevent fraud and allow Real Sand-Box trading in the game freely with no restrictions.

Kyleran

TheScavenger said:

So I was thinking. Albion Online semi-does this already. If you trade too many items to someone, in their TOS they say that is a bannable offense. 

Kyle> No, it doesn't say that.  It states if you trade too many items with no in game compensation they assume you are receiving compensation outside of the game, (which you did) and will ban you.  If I trade 100 items to someone in game for a fair market value of gold I'm sure there's going to be little issue.

So Albion way did this to prevent twinks AND decrease cheating/hacking/gold seller influence in their MMO. However, fearful of people rebelling of no trading at all...they pretty much made it a bannable offense if you trade too much. Look it up, its right in their TOS (terms of service).

Section 10-10.6
https://albiononline.com/en/terms_and_conditions

This is at 10.2

If the User trades or exchanges Virtual Property in a large-scale without a comparable value obtained within the Game, then it is assumed that the User violates this rule. The User is entitled to provide counter-evidence.

Kyle>  There you have it, the "without comparable value obtained within the game" is the key clause.  As long as they see reasonable evidence you are selling items in game for in game gold, no issue.  Now it does bring into question challenges of a player trading items between two accounts they may own, I do it all the time in DAOC funneling my loot to a salvaging character, for no in game compensation, so this rule could get sticky to enforce.  Also, husband wife teams frequently trade between each other in a big way, so again, could be a problem.

So I talk about Albion a lot, but this isn't an actual Albion thread, but its first MMO to ban for trading...but this I feel is a HUGE boost to both PvP (decreasing twinks) and decreasing cheaters and gold sellers at the same time.

Kyle> As pointed out by others in the thread, BDO already prohibits trading, supposedly to reduce gold spamming and RMTing, but as noted, it also makes using their cash shop the only way to really trade things of value.

This made me think that if Albion went all the way...why should an MMO have trading at all? If gonna ban for trading, what is the purpose of it anyway? Just have an auction house/broker or whatever. Regulate the market to a degree, make it so no one can trade with each other, including peoples alts (to also prevent twinks) and I think this could improve things a lot. Sure old MMOs you stood around spamming chat to sell an item...but that is a thing of old. 99% of MMOs have an auction house/broker or whatever, so what is the point of trading to begin with? The only reason is to make an OP character that 1 hits everything it sees...which completely voids any challenge.

And removing trade would kill any gold seller influence the game has. Sure they can log on to peoples accounts I guess to do the "service", but jokes on them, now the account is hacked lol.

Kyle>It's a bad idea IMO, I like trading in MMO's, do it all the time, and is one main reason I won't play BDO.  When I heard you can't give or build items for friends, it sort of ruins a key socialization aspect of MMOs to me, the ability to help others.  I sometimes give random strangers new to the DAOC freeshard or EVE free gold or ISK, because someone did it for me many years ago, and I've been paying it forward ever since.

Renoaku

The other method to make sure people don't get banned for breaking this part of the TOS as stated by the OP.

. Is to put in a system so that an API Monitors and checks all trades for EQUAL Values based off the in game market and sales so people can't trade anything without anything of Equal Value, could be done to exclude guild members and such but then Gold Sellers would make a guild and invite people etc.

. Or Remove trading all together and just allow players to trade within a guild only this will still not prevent cheating in a game but will limit gold sellers and buyers and make it easier on GM's to watch...

After all it took them 1 week to ban me, imagine 20 players cheating buying currency if not more and commiting fraud on launch on a much larger scale.

My Concern is for my fellow gamers, people who will buy and legally do everything in their power such as myself to Not Cheat, Break Rules, but will some-how get banned by SBI for breaking the rule of receiving too much in game items or currency with nothing into trade.

Edit: and when I tried to appeal my personal ban for the RMT accusation they threw at me they said it doesn't look good because the guy said Im delivery there to give me items, but yet SBI refused to look at counter evidence as their T&C says you are welcome to submit so I submit what I had proving I played Arche Age & traded across both games, they said said You are guilty, not even one chance, and remember I played the game for 4 years no infractions at all. So imagine if another player or players get banned for trading large amounts of currency you might be next if they refuse to look at it.

Does SBI, honestly expect me for example when I got banned to discuss everything we are trading in chat and a reason to why so I maybe wouldn't have gotten banned? No this happened outside the game on voice because most Albion players use Team Speak, or Curse Voice in some cases and or Discord.

There are also other players bans of whose I question if its real or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRuf7VB8MG4 

http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2017/04/red-line-for-albion-online.html 

Tamanous

BDO has no trading because the market is tied into the cash shop.

Players have to accept it and play the game for how it is or they can choose not to play it. On BDO's behalf, they do a decent job at limiting the pay to win factor. It, however, doesn't change the fact that the simplest mechanics that emulate real life in an mmorpg are being tampered with for monitization reasons.

It's also a Korean game and certain things are accepted over there more than here. It will bother some more than others. The greater fear is how accepting players become of it because it will only result in limiting the chances for more realistic player driven economies being made.

We can't forget why developers took over the value of their currency to begin with ... to take control away from gold sellers. This is important too but other resolutions need to be invented to preserve why old school mmos were made to being with. It's more about business models now than fighting gold sellers.

It is nearly exactly the same as governments legalizing the drug trade. Sure they kill illegal markets but it's done by ensuring addicts still ruin their own lives. Not exactly a cure. You can't even sell some ancient home brewed remedies because you have no right to profit from things labeled "medicine". You are limited in real life and not just in an mmo. The impact of currently control is real.

People think mmorpg subscriptions didn't work. They did. They simply weren't the most profitable drug. Developers need to find the addiction to profit from that at least frees up a player driven economy once again and other basics of immersive game play.

Tamanous

Demogorgon said:

I'm sorry, this might go against what is seemingly popular, but I wouldn't mind a trade free MMORPG. By trade free, I mean without an AH. I'm really sick & tired that not even a month after an MMO release you have to pay 2-3 month worth of lidgit gold grinding to buy just one ONE piece of bis gear. Crafters ( greed ) are has much part of the problem than gold seller in those games. They are either part of these asshat or want a piece of the pie... either way they are really a cancer to gaming. 

I believe Camelot Unchained is planning a bind free trading system based entirely around a 100% player economy with complex crafting. There will be no AH but fully player run, regional markets.

Now the game is also fully RvR but includes highly immersive elements like realistic physics which means, not only can you trade, you drop items on the ground for quite some time before they disappear (needed to ensure clutter isn't abused but player controlled plots will have some rule control) and anyone can pick items up.

Why does this exist though? Because they won't have a cash shop ... period. They will be a subscription game (although I wouldn't throw some future expansion crowd funding possibility out the window). Amazing things can happen when you don't take away player control.

Because of this freedom and game concept, I fully expect the game to be highly niche. But at least we'll see something different when a game developer isn't railed into a business model.

Renoaku

Tamanous said:

Demogorgon said:

I'm sorry, this might go against what is seemingly popular, but I wouldn't mind a trade free MMORPG. By trade free, I mean without an AH. I'm really sick & tired that not even a month after an MMO release you have to pay 2-3 month worth of lidgit gold grinding to buy just one ONE piece of bis gear. Crafters ( greed ) are has much part of the problem than gold seller in those games. They are either part of these asshat or want a piece of the pie... either way they are really a cancer to gaming. 

I believe Camelot Unchained is planning a bind free trading system based entirely around a 100% player economy with complex crafting. There will be no AH but fully player run, regional markets.

Now the game is also fully RvR but includes highly immersive elements like realistic physics which means, not only can you trade, you drop items on the ground for quite some time before they disappear (needed to ensure clutter isn't abused but player controlled plots will have some rule control) and anyone can pick items up.

Why does this exist though? Because they won't have a cash shop ... period. They will be a subscription game (although I wouldn't throw some future expansion crowd funding possibility out the window). Amazing things can happen when you don't take away player control.

Because of this freedom and game concept, I fully expect the game to be highly niche. But at least we'll see something different when a game developer isn't railed into a business model.

So if I wanted to sell a stick for 500 gold a piece or 1 million gold I wouldn't get banned even if the currency came from an illegal source since its player run?

I remember selling archem trees 100 gold a pop in Arche Age and getting the gold removed because the company said it was illegal gold but it was a free market and I flipped it successfully for about an hour and some idiot purchased them.

ste2000

TheScavenger said:

So I was thinking. Albion Online semi-does this already. If you trade too many items to someone, in their TOS they say that is a bannable offense. But then why have trading to begin with? It was like it wanted no one to trade with each other, but were too conservative of going all the way and just banning trade all together.

Imagine...the only trade is on an AH or broker or whatever it is to trade. No spam. No gold spam. No illegal gold sellers. No hacked items to trade.

No need to imagine, just play BDO.
And although it helps a bit with Gold Sellers, there are still Spammers on chat.
Honestly after playing BDO for 8 months, I came to the conclusion that Trade Ban is not worth it, in fact it damages BDO making it less Social than it should.

Iselin

Frankly I could care less. The whole economic aspect of MMOs is something I see as a necessary distraction from the core game that I only participate in to gear up, not for its own sake. I'd just as soon get what I need and sell what I don't through NPCs. 

I find it funny that some immediately equate it with positive social interactions when there are so many other positive social things you can do in MMOs that don't involve trading that are, IMO, much more central to the core game play.

You want to be nice to someone in a game? Give them some of your time. It's much more valuable than trinkets.

holdenfive

To me it's best to handle these issues in a way that breaks immersion as little as possible. Obviously not allowing trading full stop is not ideal, and seems a little extreme to curb the issue of gold sellers. The way I would tackle the issue is to make p2p transactions over a certain amount, as dictated by the devs, subject to some type of approval, unless it takes place on the AH. And to limit the amount of smaller transactions you can make in a period of time so that players couldn't circumvent it by nickel and diming the trading system. My idea would be a group of players would be responsible for approving or rejecting high value trades, but that may not be ideal either and subject to abuse, but the system could also be overseen by a developer or you could possibly appeal to developer review if you feel you were unfairly rejected.

Who the group of players would be, I dunno, maybe random, maybe the developers could hand pick players they feel would be trustworthy and reward them somewhat for giving up their time. Either way, it's still players policing themselves which I always think devs should find ways to facilitate, since it doesn't take resources away from them and it adds a new layer of interest and interaction for the community.

Octagon7711

Demogorgon said:

I'm sorry, this might go against what is seemingly popular, but I wouldn't mind a trade free MMORPG. By trade free, I mean without an AH. I'm really sick & tired that not even a month after an MMO release you have to pay 2-3 month worth of lidgit gold grinding to buy just one ONE piece of bis gear. Crafters ( greed ) are has much part of the problem than gold seller in those games. They are either part of these asshat or want a piece of the pie... either way they are really a cancer to gaming. 

I liked how SWG had both.  You could buy and search for goods at the AH.  You could advertise, buy, trade, or sell in the trade forums.  You could travel to the home planet of a crafter and buy from their vendor.  

I like how in some games you can call up the AH house from your UI and trade wherever you are.

Now it's a treat to be able to just drop items you don't want on the ground so players who could use them can pick them up.  

Thebeasttt

Every game that prevents trading ends up with worthless currency, aka 95% of MMO's on the market.

Dvora

SEANMCAD said:

Forgrimm said:

Doesn't BDO basically have no player-to-player trading?

if that is the case I wonder what the reasoning is.

I rather like the idea of escalating player trading to real money levels as an experiment.

its not like real life economies dont run on visualizing things because it absolutely does

It is a cheap easy way out to cut out the gold sellers and it pisses me off.  It ruins immersion and the very idea of a virtual world, and shits on social interaction between friends.  The next step in that train of thought is... - hackers exploit the game's combat so why don't we automate the whole game so that everyone can just watch the game rather than play and take the risk that some players can cheat?  No input from the players at all, just log in and watch your character go about his business.   A safe, level playing (watching) field for all.

Tamanous

Renoaku said:

Tamanous said:

Demogorgon said:

I'm sorry, this might go against what is seemingly popular, but I wouldn't mind a trade free MMORPG. By trade free, I mean without an AH. I'm really sick & tired that not even a month after an MMO release you have to pay 2-3 month worth of lidgit gold grinding to buy just one ONE piece of bis gear. Crafters ( greed ) are has much part of the problem than gold seller in those games. They are either part of these asshat or want a piece of the pie... either way they are really a cancer to gaming. 

I believe Camelot Unchained is planning a bind free trading system based entirely around a 100% player economy with complex crafting. There will be no AH but fully player run, regional markets.

Now the game is also fully RvR but includes highly immersive elements like realistic physics which means, not only can you trade, you drop items on the ground for quite some time before they disappear (needed to ensure clutter isn't abused but player controlled plots will have some rule control) and anyone can pick items up.

Why does this exist though? Because they won't have a cash shop ... period. They will be a subscription game (although I wouldn't throw some future expansion crowd funding possibility out the window). Amazing things can happen when you don't take away player control.

Because of this freedom and game concept, I fully expect the game to be highly niche. But at least we'll see something different when a game developer isn't railed into a business model.

So if I wanted to sell a stick for 500 gold a piece or 1 million gold I wouldn't get banned even if the currency came from an illegal source since its player run?

I remember selling archem trees 100 gold a pop in Arche Age and getting the gold removed because the company said it was illegal gold but it was a free market and I flipped it successfully for about an hour and some idiot purchased them.

Well you could try to sell anything for any amount but likely nobody would by it due to market value. That's whats free. Whether you obtained the gold through a gold seller or some duping and are banned is entirely up to the developer.

Dvora

Iselin said:

Frankly I could care less. The whole economic aspect of MMOs is something I see as a necessary distraction from the core game that I only participate in to gear up, not for its own sake. I'd just as soon get what I need and sell what I don't through NPCs. 

I find it funny that some immediately equate it with positive social interactions when there are so many other positive social things you can do in MMOs that don't involve trading that are, IMO, much more central to the core game play.

You want to be nice to someone in a game? Give them some of your time. It's much more valuable than trinkets.

Ya thats BS... For many people the economies are THE reason they play MMO's, or a very big part of the game.  It is a huge social factor, and if you don't think so it probably means you don't have that many *good* friends in your games.  MMO's need to be more about social interaction and cooperation not less, like these piece of crap 97% solo mmos that are all there is lately.

Try to compare the communities of games like BDO with old school games that made cooperation an almost must.  What we have lately is a joke.

Iselin

Dvora said:

Iselin said:

Frankly I could care less. The whole economic aspect of MMOs is something I see as a necessary distraction from the core game that I only participate in to gear up, not for its own sake. I'd just as soon get what I need and sell what I don't through NPCs. 

I find it funny that some immediately equate it with positive social interactions when there are so many other positive social things you can do in MMOs that don't involve trading that are, IMO, much more central to the core game play.

You want to be nice to someone in a game? Give them some of your time. It's much more valuable than trinkets.

Ya thats BS... For many people the economies are THE reason they play MMO's, or a very big part of the game.

Yeah... and some people play it to mod the UI and some play it to collect fluffy mounts. The economic part of it is a sideline that some enjoy but it is a fucking sideline dude.

FlyByKnight

If you have to enforce in-game function in your terms of service you fail as a game developer. Player trading isn't nefarious at it's core. That's pretty dumb on Albions part.

"If you double jump more than two times, you are in violation of our TOS and will be banned" -Checkers  

Renoaku

Tamanous said:

Renoaku said:

Tamanous said:

Demogorgon said:

I'm sorry, this might go against what is seemingly popular, but I wouldn't mind a trade free MMORPG. By trade free, I mean without an AH. I'm really sick & tired that not even a month after an MMO release you have to pay 2-3 month worth of lidgit gold grinding to buy just one ONE piece of bis gear. Crafters ( greed ) are has much part of the problem than gold seller in those games. They are either part of these asshat or want a piece of the pie... either way they are really a cancer to gaming. 

I believe Camelot Unchained is planning a bind free trading system based entirely around a 100% player economy with complex crafting. There will be no AH but fully player run, regional markets.

Now the game is also fully RvR but includes highly immersive elements like realistic physics which means, not only can you trade, you drop items on the ground for quite some time before they disappear (needed to ensure clutter isn't abused but player controlled plots will have some rule control) and anyone can pick items up.

Why does this exist though? Because they won't have a cash shop ... period. They will be a subscription game (although I wouldn't throw some future expansion crowd funding possibility out the window). Amazing things can happen when you don't take away player control.

Because of this freedom and game concept, I fully expect the game to be highly niche. But at least we'll see something different when a game developer isn't railed into a business model.

So if I wanted to sell a stick for 500 gold a piece or 1 million gold I wouldn't get banned even if the currency came from an illegal source since its player run?

I remember selling archem trees 100 gold a pop in Arche Age and getting the gold removed because the company said it was illegal gold but it was a free market and I flipped it successfully for about an hour and some idiot purchased them.

Well you could try to sell anything for any amount but likely nobody would by it due to market value. That's whats free. Whether you obtained the gold through a gold seller or some duping and are banned is entirely up to the developer.

Well not related to Albion specifically, there was a point in Archeage, where I tricked people into buying my stuff by playing the market, I bought out every "Archem Tree" which was worth 10 gold and put about 10-20 up for 100 gold a piece and stood there kept buying all the others, without looking other people purchased the trees and I had the gold removed because they said it was illegal never got banned.

But point being game companies sometimes do remove currency, or ban players such as my issue in Albion for exchanging across games or being good at it.

Heck I can play EVE Online and just sit in stations with alts and play the market all day making cash.

Honestly depending on a in games market design you would be shocked at what you can get people to buy, this excludes RMT players who knowingly sell stuff for real money and get gold from the AH.

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