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Only True Virtual Reality Can Fulfill the Promise of MMORPGs

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  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    I'm comfortable with 3rd person perspective in mmorpgs.  I'm not playing as myself.  I'm playing as a character in a virtual world.  I don't really like VR, and I don't need it.  Not really thrilled about the idea of AI becoming advanced enough to mimic human behavior either. 
    and that is fine I just think its odd for people to argue that VR will bring more immersion to a game and then in the same breath suggest that view perspective in the game doesnt

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  • Brald_IronheartBrald_Ironheart Member UncommonPosts: 119
    edited July 2017
    First person perspective could certainly be more immersive if implemented correctly.  It's really difficult to imitate the complexity of human perception that we have in our true 3D world though. 
    Roleplayinn.com - New forum for people who love role-playing of all kinds - tabletop/pencil & paper, live-action, and role-playing in mmorpgs.
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338
    Having a UI on VR breaks immersion unless it's a scifi. I would feel like the terminator sent back in time to kill an elf. 
    PhaserlightKyleran
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    First person perspective could certainly be more immersive if implemented correctly.  It's really difficult to imitate the complexity of human perception that we have in our true 3D world though. 
    I think the in context of how we are using the world immersive that 1st will always be more immersive then 3rd person. Its not say that 3rd person cant and its not to say its easy to confuse our use of the term 'immersion' with the real definition but overall 1st is always more immersive then 3rd person and I think most people would find that a simple truth even if they perfer 3rd person.
    cameltosis

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  • Brald_IronheartBrald_Ironheart Member UncommonPosts: 119
    edited July 2017
    Yes, according to one of the actual definitions of "immersive", 1st person perspective is more "immersive".
    Roleplayinn.com - New forum for people who love role-playing of all kinds - tabletop/pencil & paper, live-action, and role-playing in mmorpgs.
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,256
    I think future of MMORPG will be mobile smartphone VR
    Phaserlight
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Yes, according to actual definition of "immersive", 1st person perspective is more "immersive".
    actually let me be clear on one point not to dispute what your saying but because I looked it up not long ago

    immersion means 'deep mental involvement'. One can be 'immersed' in a interesting task at work. but we are using the term differently (fairly I think) but people can confuse immersion of the mental involvement of an interesting task with what we are talking about which is believable that we exist in a different world which are two different uses of the same word

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  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk Member RarePosts: 1,571
    That's one opinion, not one I would agree with though. I don't see any benefit to MMO's with VR. Absolutely fantastic for any game played in 1st person, yes. FPS, flight sims, driving sims, space sims etc or even arcade, VR really puts you in the cockpit/driving seat etc.

    MMO's I like to play in 3rd person, so I can see all the cool armour I've found and see the character I probably spent almost an hour getting just right. I don't see how VR contributes to 3rd person view games. The whole point of a VR headset is that it's a first person perspective.

    I think the way to fulfill the promise of MMO's is for the Devs to stop making shite fucking cash shop, money grubbing, piece of shit titles and make some decent fucking games again. Opinions may vary.
    Brald_IronheartKyleran
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited July 2017
    That's one opinion, not one I would agree with though. I don't see any benefit to MMO's with VR. Absolutely fantastic for any game played in 1st person, yes. FPS, flight sims, driving sims, space sims etc or even arcade, VR really puts you in the cockpit/driving seat etc.

    MMO's I like to play in 3rd person, so I can see all the cool armour I've found and see the character I probably spent almost an hour getting just right. I don't see how VR contributes to 3rd person view games. The whole point of a VR headset is that it's a first person perspective.

    I think the way to fulfill the promise of MMO's is for the Devs to stop making shite fucking cash shop, money grubbing, piece of shit titles and make some decent fucking games again. Opinions may vary.
    for me I dont like to play any game like that regardless of VR or not (3rd person).

    I think the reality is that we should (although dont nearly as much as we should) have different game styles for different people. because for me MMO was the first thing I thought of when i tried VR.

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  • MendelMendel Member LegendaryPosts: 5,609
    One thing I've always wanted for immersion is to be able to smell the environment.  When running through a forest it would be great to smell the forest or the damp of a dungeon.  

    <Snip>

    An Ogre walks upwind of you...  :)
    KyleranOctagon7711[Deleted User]

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  • someforumguysomeforumguy Member RarePosts: 4,088
    I can imagine though how VR could add to the immersion combined with a convincing MMO gameworld. But most new MMO's don't go for virtual worlds, but instead just gimmicky shallow crap.
    So, someone create a convincing virtual MMO world first, please.  Also, VR hardware(not just screen, but also controls) at current price point is not really something to focus on as MMO dev. With current prices for the VR hardware , it can't become mainstream. A MMO developed for VR also requires a very different way of interacting with the world (think inventory for example, how different that would be from normal M&KB interaction).

    This is also why I think the VR hype can still die because of the high hardware price and the ridiculous amount of crappy and gimmicky VR games being released.

    Brald_Ironheart
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited July 2017
    I can imagine though how VR could add to the immersion combined with a convincing MMO gameworld. But most new MMO's don't go for virtual worlds, but instead just gimmicky shallow crap.
    So, someone create a convincing virtual MMO world first, please.  Also, VR hardware(not just screen, but also controls) at current price point is not really something to focus on as MMO dev. With current prices for the VR hardware , it can't become mainstream. A MMO developed for VR also requires a very different way of interacting with the world (think inventory for example, how different that would be from normal M&KB interaction).

    This is also why I think the VR hype can still die because of the high hardware price and the ridiculous amount of crappy and gimmicky VR games being released.

    yes I agree.

    They can go light years by just changing how they approach existing MMO world/interfaces and ironically make it more immersive by just putting in less bullshit.

    nothing like killing immersion like putting a huge question mark above an NPCs head
    Brald_Ironheart

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  • someforumguysomeforumguy Member RarePosts: 4,088
    MR is a nice marketing buzzword. But it is still just an expansion of AR as it was already used. The digital overlay in AR is also virtual (which has already applications where the projected information is based on real world coordinates), so it is basically already an augmented reality with virtual information. Calling it MR when the information is a 3D object, is just semantics. It only makes sense that MR and AR will become one technology over time (think contact lenses and light gloves).

    Anyway, atm VR is way more convincing and interesting for games. If only because it doesn't care about what your current real world surroundings are.
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,847
    It depends on what you mean by true virtual reality. How many senses are you going to replicate? What level of realism are you going to go for?

    For me personally, VR only becomes viable / immersive when input syncs perfectly with feedback, but that is currently only possible with a very small range of games (namely, racing and space sims). 

    So, with MMOs where I'm controlling a whole character, I would only play a VR version when I myself can run around in real life and have those actions mimicked in game. I want to feel the grip of my sword in real life. When I swing it, I want to feel the momentum of the swing, I want to have to grip tighter. When my swing is blocked in game, I want my arms in real life to be stopped. 


    That is only going to be possible one of two ways:

    1) Mechanically - some sort of suspended exoskeleton that we strap into that will allow us the full range of motion whilst staying in the same spot with all our input monitored and translated into game movement, but also with loads of inbuilt servos so that ingame actions can be replicated in the suit. For example, if you stubbed your toe in game on a rock, the exoskeleton's servos would activate in your leg to mimic the movement of tripping over the rock, whilst the mechanism suspending the exoskeleton above the group would spin to mimic you falling over. 

    2) Direct brain connection - matrix style. 


    Now, we have the technology today to implement the mechanical option and I can't wait to see someone do it. However, it would be prohibitively expensive, would take up a hell of a lot of space and I'm not sure we have the computing power - the suit would be tracking loads of points of movement, transmitting it somewhere for processing, converting the data into animations then providing feedback. 


    Regarding 1st person vs 3rd person immersion....define immersion. 

    I did some research into immersion last year following on from a discussion on these forums. The generally accepted definition, as related to computer games, is that you are considered immersed in a video game when you stop thinking in terms of your character and start thinking in terms of yourself. So, instead of saying "Cloud killed Sephiroth", you are saying "I killed Sephiroth". In your brain, the actions of real life you and in game you are the same. That is immersion (well, according to academics anyway). 

    So, following on from that, it's going to differ from person to person as to what perspective gives the best immersion. For me, it's 3rd person view - I become far more connected to my character and start thinking like my character when I can, you know, see my character. When I'm in first person, it feel more impersonal to me, like a constant reminder that I'm looking through someone else's eyes, not my own. 

    For other people it will be the opposite - 1st person feel more immersive to them because what they're seeing and what the character are seeing is the same, you are more in the shoes of that character so it doesn't matter that what you can see is vastly restricted.


    Its also worth noting that the accepted definition of immersion has absolutely nothing to do with forgetting about reality, or feeling like you're really in the game (this is what I thought immersion meant originally, but by that definition I have never been immersed in a video game). 
    Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,256
    When said about VR immersive , i wonder when will they give us the robot/gundam control room , something that allow you to simulate control the 3D robot / 3D avatar in 3D space .

    we know how popular the dualshock was , now we need full body shock to feel the impact

    I image it as a ball you sit inside that that will roll in 360 degrees depend on way you move in 3D and will give to physical impact when your avatar get it .


  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    MR is a nice marketing buzzword. But it is still just an expansion of AR as it was already used. The digital overlay in AR is also virtual (which has already applications where the projected information is based on real world coordinates), so it is basically already an augmented reality with virtual information. Calling it MR when the information is a 3D object, is just semantics. It only makes sense that MR and AR will become one technology over time (think contact lenses and light gloves).

    Anyway, atm VR is way more convincing and interesting for games. If only because it doesn't care about what your current real world surroundings are.
    and that is the key difference between MR/AR and VR. Better or worse is a good conversation but some here think that MR/AR is 'all about' not mixing real into the experience when in fact it is very literally the single most important differentiating feature from VR that makes logical sense to use the word 'mixed' in the first place.

    anyway..sorry i have to rant a bit

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  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,004
    Mendel said:
    One thing I've always wanted for immersion is to be able to smell the environment.  When running through a forest it would be great to smell the forest or the damp of a dungeon.  

    <Snip>

    An Ogre walks upwind of you...  :)
    That would be kool, all of sudden there's the smell of death in the air which means a Necro is close.  
    Kyleran

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • btdtbtdt Member RarePosts: 523
    My cries of "these games are not immersive enough" are always met with retorts of "you are the problem, your memories are wrong: you were never immersed in an MMORPG, they have never been designed to be immersive, these are all lies you tell yourself." 

    Well, I hate to burst the bubble of these revisionists, but, on the contrary, I was immersed before and that is what is so utterly lacking now. 

    Let us concede that perhaps I have changed, and now require more than I did before (that it is apparently impossible to develop an immersive MMORPG that will live up to what must be my extremely demanding requirements). 

    It seems the only solution is true virtual reality. If the MMORPG really is such a stale, limited genre to the extent that linear WoW-clones revolving around combat, the trinity, gear farming etc is all we will ever get forever after, then assuredly only true virtual reality can replicate what I felt before while roaming around the Barrens or Ashenvale a decade ago. 

    For that seems to be the only way to become immersed. The MMO genre has devolved into a nest of cliches and recycled ideas. Immersion has left through the backdoor. The promise that I perceived to be present is no more, only the empty dream of a naive yet embittered veteran. 

    Perhaps someday my longing for a living, breathing, virtual world will be brought to life once more, though I would be sad if that day will only come in the future when I literally & sensually perceive myself to actually be present in a virtual world thanks to true VR technology. 
    adjective
    adjective: immersive
    1. (of a computer display or system) generating a three-dimensional image that appears to surround the user.

    VR is tromp l'oeil... it is impressive when it is new to you, but not so much when it's not.  People were enamored by playing in 3D worlds when they were first introduced.  Totally different than the 2D side scrollers they may have grown up on... totally different than the top-down isometric views that they were first exposed to... totally different than the text based worlds of MUDDs.  It was new.  Now it's old.  

    VR is just another gimmick of the same idea... just a different way to do the same thing.  Keep in mind the real world does this every day for free, and there is no greater system in the universe.  All these gimmicks are merely pale clones to the real thing.  If reality is not real enough, immersive enough, no other system in the world will be either... for very long.  

    Think about it... you've seen the real world since the moment you were born... it's not new and refreshing because you've been there and done that your entire life.  Compress that into a video game and it's a different perspective on the world... because it's different... it feels new and immersive... but just like life, eventually you've seen and done it so much that it becomes less interesting.  You want something new... but in the end, you're just recreating the same old same old.  The brain figures this out and it no longer impresses you.

    Lest we forget... most of the games that people enjoy have something to them that keeps them engaged... and it's usually not the environment alone.

    Gimmicks don't last... seeking another one to replace one yields the same result in the end.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    btdt said:
    My cries of "these games are not immersive enough" are always met with retorts of "you are the problem, your memories are wrong: you were never immersed in an MMORPG, they have never been designed to be immersive, these are all lies you tell yourself." 

    Well, I hate to burst the bubble of these revisionists, but, on the contrary, I was immersed before and that is what is so utterly lacking now. 

    Let us concede that perhaps I have changed, and now require more than I did before (that it is apparently impossible to develop an immersive MMORPG that will live up to what must be my extremely demanding requirements). 

    It seems the only solution is true virtual reality. If the MMORPG really is such a stale, limited genre to the extent that linear WoW-clones revolving around combat, the trinity, gear farming etc is all we will ever get forever after, then assuredly only true virtual reality can replicate what I felt before while roaming around the Barrens or Ashenvale a decade ago. 

    For that seems to be the only way to become immersed. The MMO genre has devolved into a nest of cliches and recycled ideas. Immersion has left through the backdoor. The promise that I perceived to be present is no more, only the empty dream of a naive yet embittered veteran. 

    Perhaps someday my longing for a living, breathing, virtual world will be brought to life once more, though I would be sad if that day will only come in the future when I literally & sensually perceive myself to actually be present in a virtual world thanks to true VR technology. 
    adjective
    adjective: immersive
    1. (of a computer display or system) generating a three-dimensional image that appears to surround the user.

    VR is tromp l'oeil... it is impressive when it is new to you, but not so much when it's not.  People were enamored by playing in 3D worlds when they were first introduced.  Totally different than the 2D side scrollers they may have grown up on... totally different than the top-down isometric views that they were first exposed to... totally different than the text based worlds of MUDDs.  It was new.  Now it's old.  

    VR is just another gimmick of the same idea... just a different way to do the same thing.  Keep in mind the real world does this every day for free, and there is no greater system in the universe.  All these gimmicks are merely pale clones to the real thing.  If reality is not real enough, immersive enough, no other system in the world will be either... for very long.  

    Think about it... you've seen the real world since the moment you were born... it's not new and refreshing because you've been there and done that your entire life.  Compress that into a video game and it's a different perspective on the world... because it's different... it feels new and immersive... but just like life, eventually you've seen and done it so much that it becomes less interesting.  You want something new... but in the end, you're just recreating the same old same old.  The brain figures this out and it no longer impresses you.

    Lest we forget... most of the games that people enjoy have something to them that keeps them engaged... and it's usually not the environment alone.

    Gimmicks don't last... seeking another one to replace one yields the same result in the end.
    ok here is the thing about the 'gimmick' of 3D you are talking about.
    1. Doom had more installations of it then MS Office.
    2. 3D gaming revolutionalized gaming forever and made a few people extremely wealthy.
    3. it forever changed the gaming expectations for decades to follow.

    If VR is of any level of a 'gimmick' as 3D gaming was around 1993 its going to be a HUGE 'gimmick' but feel free to use the word all you like

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  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,004
    I'd prefer AR.  Give me a meaningful overlay that adds to the game but doesn't cut me off completely from the immediate environment. 

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Anyone owning a VR headset knows that this is just not true.
    Being able to turn your head and look behind your back isn't magically providing full immersion into a MMORPG. And VR won't magically remove gear farming which developers use as a method to keep subscribers/customers addicted. Right now you're farming mashing a couple of keys. Then you'll be farming swinging your arms around to hit mobs with your sword. Are you sure it's really that different at the end?
    Yes, VR can add more visual stimulation and "true" virtual reality can even add moment to playing but a bad game is a bad game no matter how you present it.

    Great graphics, high resolution, animation and art have the same problem, looks ain't everything.

    But I am not so sure that the gear farming addiction works anymore, we do see signs that people stay shorter in games today then earlier. Fun is a better way to get people addicted to a game then bribes.

    In short, VR is a tool that could make a good game even better (once the gear becomes a bit easier to wear for longer periods) but it is not a magical thing that turns a bad game good. The games need to improve as well and for that matter be customized to use the VR better.
    PhaserlightBrald_IronheartOctagon7711
  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member LegendaryPosts: 12,195
    Pemmin said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    The closest you'll get is Mixed Reality anytime soon.  Overlaying "virtual" scenery over actual real world features.  You'll be able to see and hear and smell everything, though you'd likely only be smelling the outdoors or wherever you're actually playing.  

    Its pretty cool to see current MR devices read surroundings and turn them into geometric shapes to overlay textures, etc.  

    Granted you'll only have as virtual a world as you'll be in.. but no  "true VR" isn't really something you're going to see anytime soon.
    nothing more 'immersive' then seeing my washing machine while playing a MR game in which I am on a bridge of a starship!
    You won't see your washing machine.  That's the point of MR. 

    You won't see your washing machine.  That's the point of MR. 
    or the oncoming car, or the intruder with the gun to the back of your head. not being totally aware of your surrounds is off putting to the vast majority of people.

    problem with both MR and VR when it comes to immersion is that the brain subconsciously knows that something is not right because  its ability to gather, process, and store  information is waaaay beyond our current level of technology. you can trick the brain on the conscious level but not the subconscious level. an example would be the headaches people get with current VR. simulated 3D depth is still a 3d representation on a 2d plane....and our brains can perceive this(your only tricking the optic nerve and not perfectly at that) and gets confused(because 1) its aware that the reality is virtual and 2) is getting data from other senses. the only ways to have "perfect immersion" would basically be to create a perfect false reality before the brain has a chance to fully develop( essentially tricking all of our senses perfectly before memories can develop) or to damage the brain enough to warp its perceptiveness....either of which shouldn't ethically be done.
    That's not entirely true either.  MR Overlay has to turn non-virtual items into geometric shapes which currently it does by scanning them.  Any new or moving items would need to be scanned for this to work.  You could overlay a texture to make your washing machine look like a rock, or your car to look like a boat, sure, but if you're using overlays like say... you're walking the streets of new york and trying to overlay the whole city (not picking a particular game area, but walking each street)  it isn't going to work.  The people walking in and out would constantly need to be rescanned, the cars, all of that, it wouldn't be feasible. 

    Now, you could have virtual items as you walk.. see a virtual person to talk to, or lets say a virtual beach ball that you're playing with as you walk..   but as distracting as you think that could be, your head is at least up, rather than now, where you see people fall into holes, run into cars and trip on streets because they are looking down at their phone.



  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,847
    iixviiiix said:
    When said about VR immersive , i wonder when will they give us the robot/gundam control room , something that allow you to simulate control the 3D robot / 3D avatar in 3D space .

    we know how popular the dualshock was , now we need full body shock to feel the impact

    I image it as a ball you sit inside that that will roll in 360 degrees depend on way you move in 3D and will give to physical impact when your avatar get it .


    I imagine being inside a suit like this (minus weaponry obviously) - to track your motion and provide feedback from the game, with integrated VR headset and earphones:


    But for that suit to by suspended somehow so that you can walk on the spot, fall over, jump etc without actually moving any distance. 

    Something like this, but motorised:


    Or a smaller scale thing from the Assassins Creed movie:




    If someone ever did invent this contraption, I imagine it would have massive health benefits for the gaming community as gaming would involve a lot of exercise. Playing skyrim would actually involve a lot of walking around. Getting into sword fights would be physically challenging. You would actually be able to dodge properly and could get inventive with attacks, rather than being limited to attack or power attack :pleased:


    Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,060
    It depends on what you mean by true virtual reality. How many senses are you going to replicate? What level of realism are you going to go for?

    For me personally, VR only becomes viable / immersive when input syncs perfectly with feedback, but that is currently only possible with a very small range of games (namely, racing and space sims). 

    So, with MMOs where I'm controlling a whole character, I would only play a VR version when I myself can run around in real life and have those actions mimicked in game. I want to feel the grip of my sword in real life. When I swing it, I want to feel the momentum of the swing, I want to have to grip tighter. When my swing is blocked in game, I want my arms in real life to be stopped. 


    That is only go
    When I read this I recalled a "Hot Pockets" commercial I saw last night where 3 friends are playing a "Cry shooter of some sort.

    On his return to the game after his snack he tackles his two friends in game to take them out of harms way.

    At this point the camera view pans back to real life where we see our 'hero' tackle his two  friends over the back of the sofa.

    Another risk of VS if it involves hand controllers and full motion is what happened to one of my guildmates last week when one of his children threw a WII controller through his TV.
    Phaserlight

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

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  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Kyleran said:
    It depends on what you mean by true virtual reality. How many senses are you going to replicate? What level of realism are you going to go for?

    For me personally, VR only becomes viable / immersive when input syncs perfectly with feedback, but that is currently only possible with a very small range of games (namely, racing and space sims). 

    So, with MMOs where I'm controlling a whole character, I would only play a VR version when I myself can run around in real life and have those actions mimicked in game. I want to feel the grip of my sword in real life. When I swing it, I want to feel the momentum of the swing, I want to have to grip tighter. When my swing is blocked in game, I want my arms in real life to be stopped. 


    That is only go
    When I read this I recalled a "Hot Pockets" commercial I saw last night where 3 friends are playing a "Cry shooter of some sort.

    On his return to the game after his snack he tackles his two friends in game to take them out of harms way.

    At this point the camera view pans back to real life where we see our 'hero' tackle his two  friends over the back of the sofa.

    Another risk of VS if it involves hand controllers and full motion is what happened to one of my guildmates last week when one of his children threw a WII controller through his TV.
    you dont need much to have a problem with children throwing WII controllers through a TV or any other item for that matter

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