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Shroud of the Avatar - Richard Garriott - Goals, Milestones, and Expectations - MMORPG.com
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First off, it only takes one "bad" mechanic to ruin a game for many players. SotA combat, for example.
Secondly, you don't have to put in 15 hours to know a game has issues. If you do, then that's a different problem not appropriate for this thread. Severe game issues are obvious right away and SotA has quite a few: Combat, excessive instancing, poor performance, clunky UI, etc.
Third, the game is NOT hard. Much of the game is too remedial and geared toward a roleplaying crowd. The focus on POTs, housing, and the store are perfect examples of this. This is Second Life 2.0.
PvP is a joke and designed for people who fancy themselves PvPers but would get crushed in any other game. This is their "I am hardcore" holodeck where they can pretend PvP.
The SotA community is the poster child for clueless gamers, clinging to the memories of a now washed-up game developer.
~~ postlarval ~~
~~ postlarval ~~
The numbers on steam are abysmal.
http://steamcharts.com/app/326160
and the reviews match them
http://steamcommunity.com/app/326160/reviews/?browsefilter=toprated&snr=1_5_reviews_
The only thing an official release will do is make even more people painfully aware of how much of an embarrassment this is.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Who cares about my life. If you want to refute me bring some numbers, what's that? You can't because all you have is your personal bias. You can like, love and slobber all over this giant train wreck all you want that isn't going to change the amount of people playing it.
You should probably enjoy it while it lasts.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/This is why people assume you're not arguing honestly; The details of what I'm talking about, the "story" was in this very thread.
Likewise the reviews you say that you read on Steam, they list all the details of the game they dislike; one of the Most Helpful (until recently THE top result on Steam) was mine, so by your own admission you should be aware that I talk about much more than just the community as being an issue. And my review points to 3 hour long videos I did going into even more detail about the game; the combined recorded footage for that was about 12 hours as I recall. It also shows I had, until I could support the game no longer, 120.8 hours on the Steam client alone.
I am almost certainly an earlier backer than you of Shroud. In fact, some of my artwork was going to be in the game itself; I added the cow heraldry... except like anything not in the add on store, it's all unlikely to ever be in game, because they didn't want to hire someone to work with the College Of Arms to finalise it.
I wrote a poem for the game's books... which wasn't going to be put in game because they were so busy trying to earn money and stop being such programming incompetents the fiction submissions were cancelled too. At the time, they blamed player greed for asking for store credit as a reward. Now they're giving store credit as a reward for making the advertisements they can't afford to pay for because if they don't, the game is going under. Hypocritical AND desperate.
And here's the kicker; the game is nothing like Ultima Online... I know, because I worked on Ultima Online. I was EM Gotan on Europa. Shroud has no ability to drop items into the world outside of someone's homes; the game has no ability to poll the central server and check for item updates, it's all a hand built and thus fixed map. So brand new fiction? Player run events? Outside of just talking, or doing something inside your home...? Impossible.
EM events? Shroud can't afford the staff to run them. I'm not sure they have access to even the same range of tools as we did at UO if they wanted them; the famous flaming sword Lord British made was crafted, not spawned. Has anyone seen them spawn monsters, let alone items?
PvP? Like most systems, even now the game is about to run out of money, it's still not finalised. If and when it is, it won't be Full Loot (Pre-Ren) or an entire world where anyone is freely attackable (Felucca) style UO.
The plot line? You're severely confused about what the "Plot Reset" will mean; they're not going to re-write it. They're just going to reset your progress so you can play it through a second time, as those who've played it since the world went permanent last July will want to do it again. The quests now are in their final state. What you see is what you get. The last missing plot is due in a week or so, end of July.
But this is one area where Shroud DOES match UO: they're using the exact same NPC mechanics. Ever wonder why we EMs don't bother with that often though? Those mechanics were CRAP.
Firstly because the NPC can only reply to a single word with a single response. As far as I know, Shroud STILL doesn't have the code that will allow it to recognise the second or third use of a word... so if you're sending the players on a quest for a "Hat", you can only have the NPC respond to the word "Hat" with the same line every time.
Thus you need to use synonyms for "Hat", like "head gear" or "titfer".... and then you hit the second problem. People not familiar with British Rhyming Slang won't know what a titfer is. Words which are connected to hats in one language won't be in another... and Shroud unlike UO is having it's plot translated by, yes again, volunteers.
And the NPC will not trigger on "head gear" unless you force it to see it as a whole word. However you now can't use either head or gear as clues because anyone typing "head gear" will trigger the clue for head, as the code always triggers on the first complete word it sees the player input; and the player won't know gear is a clue because they assume being separate from head, the code has already discounted it.
And that's assuming that your writer can actually write plots that are clear and fun too; which in Shroud's case, they absolutely don't have. The quests are awful. And I speak as someone who has professionally written these quests under the exact same "word > response" same system for UO. See my video review pt.3 for the new player quest as it was 6 months ago. I manage to break it entirely just by being in combat mode so the NPC won't talk to me. The environmental clues like letters are laughably badly written...
And this is why Shroud has the awful UI it does, including having separate chat windows for different npcs and clickable word links: to stop other NPCs and players triggering responses in another conversation (one EM managed to take down their entire server by creating an infinite NPC response loop), and to try and keep the clues at least obvious...
BUT THIS MEANS THEY CAN NEVER FIX THE UI. WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU'LL GET.
Portalarium chose the wrong system for a modern game, that they can't make work well or write well, and there's no way to fix this under their chosen system. For the UI to get better, they'd have to re-write every single quest. And they're not going too.
Likewise, you're not getting any better gameplay because it would mean coding in new mechanisms, then going back and switching the questing over to include that new gameplay. It's not going to happen. They'd have done it by now if they could. They're out of money and time to even consider trying.
You're simply wrong to claim the core gameplay is going to improve. I'm sorry, but you are. You're just spinning to defend a game you love, rather than listening to actual reason.
(cont'd below)
And also... so what? You acknowledge too that for many of us, the community is hate filled, toxic and awful. And it's not just in game: The user Jammaplaya has gone as far as stalking people for more than a year on Reddit, trying to hint he's threatening user's children, and attempted to hack people's social and personal accounts.... all because we criticize a computer game?
How much patience are we supposed to have with that?
And why aren't we allowed to say "i'm sorry, but even if the game becomes the next WoW, there are some things that are unforgivable?" You claim not to know what RMT is, yet there you are happily defending Real Money Trading as making the game more "adult"...
Again, you sound spectacularly dishonest. Are you seriously trying to claim you don't know what we're talking about? You couldn't even quickly google "RMT" because you didn't even want to learn what others were referring too? What you claim we're not allowed to have an opinin on, you openly state is the only real core to the game. So if we both agree the game is RMT focused, why are we not allowed to say "But I hate that?" Or are we only allowed to say, just as the Jammaplayas and MrAdventur3s of the world insist, that we love the game? No one can ever say anything except the game is lovely, is that it? So how are you any different from the cult like obsessives that already drove us out of the game?
Oh yes, I did read your post; and I gave Shroud over 2 years and nearly $500 before I realised it would never be the game for me... or most people, because we're not welcome in that world unless we're utterly blind. Why not just admit this, instead of trying to badger people into thinking they'll like things they never, ever will?
Steamspy has deeper data than Steamcharts; you can see the figure for anyone even starting the game (at which point it would be shown as active on their account and picked up by the bots) in the last 2 weeks is 4,554 ± 1,780
http://steamspy.com/app/326160
We know that actual sold accounts, even when spun as best as possible for the SeedInvest is around 65,000 and so we know that currently Steam is tracking well over half of all accounts still as it's tracking 34,244 ± 4,881
So with the margin of error of the figures and taking into the percentage of the total, you can get to roughly LBs figures for "monthly players"...
... but you'll still never see more than 500 in game at any one time, which is really what counts; Actual people playing.
We're so good......
That being said. I would NOT have backed the game in the way I did had I known the direction it would later take. Instead of backing with enough money that also came with a full version of the game, I would have only donated about $5-10, for a thank you for everything he has done for gaming to help him start up a new company free from corporate hacks that are wrecking the gaming industry with money grabs, clones and horrible tactics like gambling and releasing 1/3rd a game and the rest as DLCs.
The combat system in this game is horrible and the online version of the game is bogged down by an insane level of real money player housing...and...a bunch of penis shaped setups on lots. I may, repeat...may...play the single player version when the game is actually released but not the online version due to those player lots.
That combat though, horrible enough that I would rank it near the bottom of MMORPGs combat and is a massive blight on a decent game for an independent company.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Except he's also doing some of those things as well, so he's pretty much in bed with the "corporate hacks", sharing tips on how to dupe customers. No arguments there. It's easily the worst and possibly the worst design decision in the history of computer gaming. He really needs to kick Chris Spears to the curb and try to restore some order to this mess.
~~ postlarval ~~
Anyway, Tabula Rasa was not his fault. His direct control over the game was circumvented during beta 1 which is why there was such a massive change to the game by the time the end of Beta 2 hit that caused the ruckus. Its the reason why he quickly left the company and said what he said. Also why so many members of the team went with him.
Also, even IF he had caused it, doesnt change what he has done for the gaming as a whole which was my point. He has done so much that games are built on its mind boggling...I mean, just the fact that he introduced stories the player can effect via choices is massive let alone open world, over head maps, 3D and so many other things.
And yes, his choice of Chris Spears is bad...almost as bad as Raph Koster who has an over-inflated reputation and passed off most of his massive mistakes onto others.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Keep in mind that Garriot wasn't just an NCSoft employee, he owned 400.000 shares of NCSoft and he was the CEO of the West division.
He was in total control of NCSoft West.
Even if NCSoft (KR) complained about Tabula Rasa version 1, he was still in charge of Tabula Rasa Version 2.
I am not saying NCSoft is innocent, I am just poiting out that RG was in charge of both versions of the game.
The plan from the start was to make Tabula Rasa a game that would be popular in the east and west and was told by NCSoft that they were not making the game look like what an Asian game looks like and to stop and focus on making a western game...2 years into making it.
That was the reason for the drastic changes from the begging of Beta 2 to near release...changes that massively altered the game into the mess it was at release. It went from being an action-shooter MMO to being slowed down to an MMORPG pace and that was the tip of the iceburg.
Still, this is all just a tangent that has nothing to do with my point
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
You still do that; all the clickable words do is automate the input of the word. Try it for yourself; type the clickable word and watch the quests progress... It's just a way of showing players which words they need to use.
*snip*
And with that, you prove yet again just how many of Shroud's community are outright awful.
Notice that you don't address any of the criticism I point out; instead you start trying to backslide and blame me for being offended by Jammaplaya's behaviour...? And then claiming maybe he doesn't do the things we say, even though I linked to him openly discussing it on the official forums? And that you don't dare address the fact that I've pointed you to it a second time.... instead you make excuses for supposedly not reading it?
Once more, real people, at least real honest people don't act this way.
Shroud of the Avatar's community, folks. I hope all you neutral observers are taking notes on how they behave.
Even if the new argument is supposedly true, that this user actually secretly hates the game and is trying to destroy the community... we've pointed this argument out ourselves before, that he's so hate filled he has that effect, even if he doesn't mean too; and Portalarium won't touch him because he's a highly invested RMT, so our argument remains correct. Portalarium puts fund raising before actually protecting their own audience.
Who on Earth would want then to try and make excuses for either of them? Who indeed, eh....?
Meanwhile, read this Reddit thread to see the Shroud community rage at people who would like to play a server where the content is actually unlockable without having to pay more to RMTs to get it. Then watch them put up posts mocking people who might want the game they were promised at Kickstarter... the user who put up the mocking thread, by the way, went on an unbelievable rant to me that she didn't care that another user I mentioned who had to call the police with regards to the harassment directed against them; and instead said she had no sympathy because that users lighthouse shone through her window. Really.
Guess who is in that thread too, putting up yet another terrible idea that only seems to be some weird way of trying to stop people posting any criticism, whilst allowing him to RMT to them during the huge loading screens... Loading screens the last release 43 was supposed to have fixed, remember?
The community lies about EVERYTHING.
Shroud's community is vile.
No one is going to agree that saying not having RMT in a game is a childish opinion to have; what, do you think three decades of game development before the idea even turns up didn't happen? For most of actual mature people's gaming lives, no RMT was the standard.
Where was the RMT in the original Ultimas, even? Ultima IX? How many years after Trammel did it take for EA/Broadsword to sell Add Ons?
And once more... you can't even honestly address the points actually made; you asked which was my Steam review; I gave you enough information to locate it. If you've actually done as you claim, or even just read the Most Useful, you've already read it, because it's one of the first that appears. It's also the only one with a video review in fact. You'd have to be blind not to know which review it was.
I believe you do know, you're just deliberately arguing deceptively, and seem to think that if you can't be forced into defending a point, taking a precisely defined position and then holding or ceding it, you think you can never lost the point. And I'm fine with that, because it suits my wider argument in the eyes of the genuine intelligent audience that is watching.
Because as for the PvP comment... I do know how it works. Because that's in my video reviews too. I flag on for PvP whilst recording all of Part 2, and am only attacked once by anyone the entire time... because the game is dead, and open PvP is a tiny minority even when in a healthy game.
PvP in Shroud isn't "innovative", unless you call giving new names for direct damage and DoT spells innovative. It's just standard MMO hotbar mashing, with the option to have your hotbar randomised, and a FPS cursor added on top. Oh, and I ran professional PvP events for UO too... events which move a hell of a lot faster than the lethargic, stare at your hotbar PvP in Shroud.
Again, you can't bring yourself to just honestly say "Ok, you know what you're talking about" ... you have to keep lying and pretending you're talking to children, because you assume only your opinion is valid. You've plenty of time to go on these huge rants, but not type THREE LETTERS into Google?
If you really want to be taken seriously, up your game and at least aspire to genuine standards of debate. Don't just tell people what you think they're saying; everyone can see you're not even close. Everyone knows your arguments are utterly ridiculous and disconnected from reality. Actually listen, learn, address and adapt...
Or just keep yelling that we're all children and apparently want Facebook monitors.... even though I've already stated they've actually got someone employed in that position too. He got caught posting a Steam review when he got the job, but didn't declare it, remember?
Why are you remaining Shroud Cultists so, so unable to even notice what's right in front of everyone's eyes?