Sigh.. lets stay focused on THIS thread my friend. The whining is coming most certainly from you. Complaining about MMORPGs.
It's VERY on topic. The whole point is that everyone is complaining MMOs are casinos. I'm saying, it's not a big deal, we've been dealing with No Lifers getting the advantage swipers do since the dawn of MMOs. With games like Star Citizen saying there will be no levels at all and Crowfall promising a lower power gap than usually based on level/gear I'm way cooler with people's ability to buy ships with cash (especially since I already have) or get little trophy forts in their trophy kingdoms, or start with land and trade in-game currency for cash in Chronicles of Elyria than I am with the way games were back in the fabled days of EQ1.
I'm upset with where games have been, and where they are right now, but I'm hopeful about what the near future holds for them. You like where MMOs have been but are upset with where they are, and where they are going. Who is the one really should be quitting here?
Yet again missing the point. This thread isn't even about buying an advantage. It's about the casino-like method of not knowing what you are buying.
It's kind of funny how you have tried 3...4? times but still can't understand the actual topic. It's NOT about P2W... It's about buying boxes of random stuff.. not knowing what you are getting.. and whether that is like a casino.
Care to try again? I've stated my view (and admittedly gotten off topic over the last few responses to you). Maybe you did state your's somewhere but I don't remember after all the talk about players being gods, no lifers having an advantage, and other non-topical ranting... so where do you stand on the actual topic of buying random loot boxes?
Hint: This topic is NOT about buying ships in Star Citizen. It's NOT about buying yourself a Kingship in CoE and it's NOT about Crowfall. It's also NOT about grinding, the level gap between 1-50, or RMT. It's about the randomness of the purchases via loot boxes.
Edit: Nevermind.. I found it!!!! Here's your quote and we agree!!! All is well!!
Eldurian: As far as RNG cash boxes go, I don't touch them. If I feel that I need to in order to be competitive in a game (Which is usually false, usually they contain crappy cosmetics I don't want anyway), I won't play that game. That's a level of pay to win I'm not willing to touch with a ten foot pole.
Sigh.. lets stay focused on THIS thread my friend. The whining is coming most certainly from you. Complaining about MMORPGs.
It's VERY on topic. The whole point is that everyone is complaining MMOs are casinos. I'm saying, it's not a big deal, we've been dealing with No Lifers getting the advantage swipers do since the dawn of MMOs. With games like Star Citizen saying there will be no levels at all and Crowfall promising a lower power gap than usually based on level/gear I'm way cooler with people's ability to buy ships with cash (especially since I already have) or get little trophy forts in their trophy kingdoms, or start with land and trade in-game currency for cash in Chronicles of Elyria than I am with the way games were back in the fabled days of EQ1.
I'm upset with where games have been, and where they are right now, but I'm hopeful about what the near future holds for them. You like where MMOs have been but are upset with where they are, and where they are going. Who is the one really should be quitting here?
Yet again missing the point. This thread isn't even about buying an advantage. It's about the casino-like method of not knowing what you are buying.
It's kind of funny how you have tried 3...4? times but still can't understand the actual topic. It's NOT about P2W... It's about buying boxes of random stuff.. not knowing what you are getting.. and whether that is like a casino.
Care to try again? I've stated my view (and admittedly gotten off topic over the last few responses to you). Maybe you did state your's somewhere but I don't remember after all the talk about players being gods, no lifers having an advantage, and other non-topical ranting... so where do you stand on the actual topic of buying random loot boxes?
Hint: This topic is NOT about buying ships in Star Citizen. It's NOT about buying yourself a Kingship in CoE and it's NOT about Crowfall. It's also NOT about grinding, the level gap between 1-50, or RMT. It's about the randomness of the purchases via loot boxes.
I wish they would take gambling out of TESO. It is to tempting for some people to keep playing until they "win the prize."
At least in TESO, you can still get decent gear in game. Not so much in games like Star Trek Online. I've noticed other games that have introduced lock boxes and I'm noticing a significant drop in game loot over time, until eventually most if not all will end up with everything worth having being in locked boxes. The trend has already started and enough people participate that it is significantly changing the way MMORPG's play and that is a very sad thing in my opinion.
I addressed it with my first post in the topic. You can go back and hunt it down if you want.
Essentially what I said was that cashboxes suck, I refuse to buy them, and I won't play any game that I feel like I can't compete without buying them.
However pretty much every single one I've encountered offers nothing but ugly consumables and some minor items you can get more easily through other means. People whining cash boxes are "pay to win" are generally just people who hear the word cash box and have knee-jerk reaction. I can't recall even a single game I've played they were a real issue in terms of creating any kind of legitimate pay-to-win scenario.
I wish they would take gambling out of TESO. It is to tempting for some people to keep playing until they "win the prize."
At least in TESO, you can still get decent gear in game. Not so much in games like Star Trek Online. I've noticed other games that have introduced lock boxes and I'm noticing a significant drop in game loot over time, until eventually most if not all will end up with everything worth having being in locked boxes. The trend has already started and enough people participate that it is significantly changing the way MMORPG's play and that is a very sad thing in my opinion.
Yup. The implementation in ESO is pretty light and mostly harmless. For one thing they don't drop as loot and then you have to buy a key to open them, which is the more aggressive method of pushing them,
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
no its not like that at all. let me step you thu
ME: I have played AAA ME: I have played Indie
ME: I have no complaints about the games I am playing now would you like to learn more?
WhatsHisFace: I have a lot to complain about the games I am playing but I dont even want to know what games you are playing and not complaining about.
WhatsHisFace: ignorance is bliss
Me: but 1. I have played such games 2. why would I play something that would make me complain instead of playing something I am very pleased with and have no complaints about?
conclusion: some of you really really really really really need to have more of an open mind about other options
It's very simple Sean. Nothing is perfect and we criticize the imperfections. Life is not just a bumper sticker that says "love it or leave it."
its even simpler then that.
games I play I dont complain about because...well...I think they are good, and it might be worth you looking into instead of being closed minded about.
just a thought
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
no its not like that at all. let me step you thu
ME: I have played AAA ME: I have played Indie
ME: I have no complaints about the games I am playing now would you like to learn more?
WhatsHisFace: I have a lot to complain about the games I am playing but I dont even want to know what games you are playing and not complaining about.
WhatsHisFace: ignorance is bliss
Me: but 1. I have played such games 2. why would I play something that would make me complain instead of playing something I am very pleased with and have no complaints about?
conclusion: some of you really really really really really need to have more of an open mind about other options
It's very simple Sean. Nothing is perfect and we criticize the imperfections. Life is not just a bumper sticker that says "love it or leave it."
its even simpler then that.
games I play I dont complain about because...well...I think they are good, and it might be worth you looking into instead of being closed minded about.
just a thought
A fun game is still a fun game even if theres a part of it you don't like. Playing something else that may not have that thing you don't like doesn't work. If you've found a good game with an imperfection thats no excuse to go to an inferior game you didn't want to play.
no its not like that at all. let me step you thu
ME: I have played AAA ME: I have played Indie
ME: I have no complaints about the games I am playing now would you like to learn more?
WhatsHisFace: I have a lot to complain about the games I am playing but I dont even want to know what games you are playing and not complaining about.
WhatsHisFace: ignorance is bliss
Me: but 1. I have played such games 2. why would I play something that would make me complain instead of playing something I am very pleased with and have no complaints about?
conclusion: some of you really really really really really need to have more of an open mind about other options
It's very simple Sean. Nothing is perfect and we criticize the imperfections. Life is not just a bumper sticker that says "love it or leave it."
its even simpler then that.
games I play I dont complain about because...well...I think they are good, and it might be worth you looking into instead of being closed minded about.
just a thought
A fun game is still a fun game even if theres a part of it you don't like. Playing something else that may not have that thing you don't like doesn't work. If you've found a good game with an imperfection thats no excuse to go to an inferior game you didn't want to play.
but a 'fun game' is not one that you immediately jump on a fourm site and complain about is my POINT!
Me: play games, dont complain because I have nothing to complain about 'Other': Plays games, jumps on forums site and complains about features in said game.
hmmmm, how many times to have to make this illustration before it slowly starts to sink in?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
no its not like that at all. let me step you thu
ME: I have played AAA ME: I have played Indie
ME: I have no complaints about the games I am playing now would you like to learn more?
WhatsHisFace: I have a lot to complain about the games I am playing but I dont even want to know what games you are playing and not complaining about.
WhatsHisFace: ignorance is bliss
Me: but 1. I have played such games 2. why would I play something that would make me complain instead of playing something I am very pleased with and have no complaints about?
conclusion: some of you really really really really really need to have more of an open mind about other options
It's very simple Sean. Nothing is perfect and we criticize the imperfections. Life is not just a bumper sticker that says "love it or leave it."
its even simpler then that.
games I play I dont complain about because...well...I think they are good, and it might be worth you looking into instead of being closed minded about.
just a thought
A fun game is still a fun game even if theres a part of it you don't like. Playing something else that may not have that thing you don't like doesn't work. If you've found a good game with an imperfection thats no excuse to go to an inferior game you didn't want to play.
but a 'fun game' is not one that you immediately jump on a fourm site and complain about is my POINT!
Me: play games, dont complain because I have nothing to complain about 'Other': Plays games, jumps on forums site and complains about features in said game.
hmmmm, how many times to have to make this illustration before it slowly starts to sink in?
I think you can tell a good game is such because you play it in spite of the things you don't like. You can tell a bad game by one you don't play at all.
If you like 100% of every game you currently play you either don't play any games or you don't have very discerning tastes.
no its not like that at all. let me step you thu
ME: I have played AAA ME: I have played Indie
ME: I have no complaints about the games I am playing now would you like to learn more?
WhatsHisFace: I have a lot to complain about the games I am playing but I dont even want to know what games you are playing and not complaining about.
WhatsHisFace: ignorance is bliss
Me: but 1. I have played such games 2. why would I play something that would make me complain instead of playing something I am very pleased with and have no complaints about?
conclusion: some of you really really really really really need to have more of an open mind about other options
It's very simple Sean. Nothing is perfect and we criticize the imperfections. Life is not just a bumper sticker that says "love it or leave it."
its even simpler then that.
games I play I dont complain about because...well...I think they are good, and it might be worth you looking into instead of being closed minded about.
just a thought
A fun game is still a fun game even if theres a part of it you don't like. Playing something else that may not have that thing you don't like doesn't work. If you've found a good game with an imperfection thats no excuse to go to an inferior game you didn't want to play.
but a 'fun game' is not one that you immediately jump on a fourm site and complain about is my POINT!
Me: play games, dont complain because I have nothing to complain about 'Other': Plays games, jumps on forums site and complains about features in said game.
hmmmm, how many times to have to make this illustration before it slowly starts to sink in?
I think you can tell a good game is such because you play it in spite of the things you don't like. You can tell a bad game by one you don't play at all.
If you like 100% of every game you currently play you either don't play any games or you don't have very discerning tastes.
that is idotic logic.
I have played AAA, I have played indie and I have been playing nearly every week for 37 years. I should know a thing or two about what I like.
Its really hard (and you are trying very hard) to suggest that the people who complain the most about the games they play actually are playing better games then the ones who complain the least about the games they play AND have more experience AND have played both types
its not working...its weak sauce
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
The RNG in MMO's always existed, it was always a Casino more or less.
It's just far visible now, what before was minimal changes to drop X type of loot killing X mob/boss is now things like loot boxes.
That's fairly true. Raid bosses are inserting your time into the slot machine. Cash boxes are inserting your cash into the slot machine. So in a way, raids are a no-lifers version of a swipers cash box.
Except that the main prize in cash boxes are usually cosmetics and vanity items.
The RNG in MMO's always existed, it was always a Casino more or less.
It's just far visible now, what before was minimal changes to drop X type of loot killing X mob/boss is now things like loot boxes.
That's fairly true. Raid bosses are inserting your time into the slot machine. Cash boxes are inserting your cash into the slot machine. So in a way, raids are a no-lifers version of a swipers cash box.
Except that the main prize in cash boxes are usually cosmetics and vanity items.
And the two resources you seem so intent on equating are actually completely different in nature and are not accrued in the same manner. But other than the two resources being not alike at all, your analogy is spot on.
The RNG in MMO's always existed, it was always a Casino more or less.
It's just far visible now, what before was minimal changes to drop X type of loot killing X mob/boss is now things like loot boxes.
That's fairly true. Raid bosses are inserting your time into the slot machine. Cash boxes are inserting your cash into the slot machine. So in a way, raids are a no-lifers version of a swipers cash box.
Except that the main prize in cash boxes are usually cosmetics and vanity items.
And the two resources you seem so intent on equating are actually completely different in nature and are not accrued in the same manner. But other than the two resources being not alike at all, your analogy is spot on.
I would love to see one of these guys go into a casino and say, "Hello, I would like to make a bet with my time."
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
The RNG in MMO's always existed, it was always a Casino more or less.
It's just far visible now, what before was minimal changes to drop X type of loot killing X mob/boss is now things like loot boxes.
That's fairly true. Raid bosses are inserting your time into the slot machine. Cash boxes are inserting your cash into the slot machine. So in a way, raids are a no-lifers version of a swipers cash box.
Except that the main prize in cash boxes are usually cosmetics and vanity items.
And the two resources you seem so intent on equating are actually completely different in nature and are not accrued in the same manner. But other than the two resources being not alike at all, your analogy is spot on.
Same general principle really. It's really one of the reasons I don't run more dungeons (Beyond the repetitive and predictable nature of most dungeons) when I come to think of it.
I don't open cash boxes because I like to buy things with a guaranteed value. Not open it and get several items that I don't need and are either untradeable and low in value.
I don't like dungeon loot because I like to get a guaranteed return on my time. Not run a whole dungeon only to have nothing of value to my class (or repeats of items I already have) drop.
Time = Money
All time has a value in lost opportunity to generate value. Both IRL and in-game. This is why for instance, in identifying ways to generate resources rather than doing every step of the process myself "Because it's free and I don't lose anything!" I calculate what step of the process generates the most money the fastest and focus on that step, and end up a lot richer in the end. Because in the time I spent focusing on low value processes to cut out the need to hire other people to do it I waste time I could have spent on high value processes generating more money in the same amount of time.
I do not like to invest money to get something back of lesser value, and I do not like to invest time to get something back of lesser value than the opportunity cost involved with the time spent.
The RNG in MMO's always existed, it was always a Casino more or less.
It's just far visible now, what before was minimal changes to drop X type of loot killing X mob/boss is now things like loot boxes.
That's fairly true. Raid bosses are inserting your time into the slot machine. Cash boxes are inserting your cash into the slot machine. So in a way, raids are a no-lifers version of a swipers cash box.
Except that the main prize in cash boxes are usually cosmetics and vanity items.
And the two resources you seem so intent on equating are actually completely different in nature and are not accrued in the same manner. But other than the two resources being not alike at all, your analogy is spot on.
Same general principle really. It's really one of the reasons I don't run more dungeons (Beyond the repetitive and predictable nature of most dungeons) when I come to think of it.
I don't open cash boxes because I like to buy things with a guaranteed value. Not open it and get several items that I don't need and are either untradeable and low in value.
I don't like dungeon loot because I like to get a guaranteed return on my time. Not run a whole dungeon only to have nothing of value to my class (or repeats of items I already have) drop.
Time = Money
All time has a value in lost opportunity to generate value. Both IRL and in-game. This is why for instance, in identifying ways to generate resources rather than doing every step of the process myself "Because it's free and I don't lose anything!" I calculate what step of the process generates the most money the fastest and focus on that step, and end up a lot richer in the end. Because in the time I spent focusing on low value processes to cut out the need to hire other people to do it I waste time I could have spent on high value processes generating more money in the same amount of time.
I do not like to invest money to get something back of lesser value, and I do not like to invest time to get something back of lesser value than the opportunity cost involved with the time spent.
Time =/= money, that old adage is tongue in cheek for a reason.
You're, again, arguing against a central theme of RPGs (RNG) as if it's inherently bad or means de facto loot boxes or something.
It's not the "same principle really" or even generally, because time's generated for everyone at the same rate. It's a constant. No one has 25 hours a day, no one only gets 20 (ignore astronauts for the sake of this argument). Money enjoys no such constant. Time cannot be banked, to be released at a later time. Time cannot be used as legal tender to purchase a good or service. Time is not subject to inflation nor recession. And, once spent, time cannot be earned back.
Time =/= money, that old adage is tongue in cheek for a reason.
You're, again, arguing against a central theme of RPGs (RNG) as if it's inherently bad or means de facto loot boxes or something.
It's not the "same principle really" or even generally, because time's generated for everyone at the same rate. It's a constant. No one has 25 hours a day, no one only gets 20 (ignore astronauts for the sake of this argument). Money enjoys no such constant. Time cannot be banked, to be released at a later time. Time cannot be used as legal tender to purchase a good or service. Time is not subject to inflation nor recession. And, once spent, time cannot be earned back.
Time is the same for everyone but playtime isn't.
Have a job? Subtract some playtime. Go to school? Subtract some playtime. Have a healthy romantic relationship? Subtract some playtime. Have friends outside the game? Subtract some playtime. Have parents and/or kids you spend time with? Subtract some playtime. Eat home cooked meals instead of Hot Pockets? Subtract some playtime. Involved in your community? Subtract some playtime. Care about your physical fitness? Subtract some playtime. Spend any time on reading / self-development? Subtract some playtime. Any other hobbies? Subtract some playtime.
In terms of playtime your basement dwelling virgin that lives with their parents at 33 and has given up on relationships is rich. The closer you get to that, the richer you are.
Pay-to-Win gives an advantage to people who have more money and are willing to spend it on a game.
Play-to-Win gives more advantage to people who have less obligations and are willing to spend all that free time on a game.
People try to equate that games based on skill being Play-to-win as well. It's simply not true though. For instance one of my friends ex's had no job, no school, no friends outside her, got out of breath walking to the store (on the rare occasions he left the house) and sat on the couch playing games all day while she worked her butt off in the military. This dude couldn't even beat a dragon in Skyrim with a warrior though (Let's be honest, Skyrim dragons are cake as any decent build, especially a good warrior build). He spent lots of time playing but he had no drive, no desire to achieve excellence. He just ran through the motions all day, every day.
That is your top class of player in the pre Pay-to-Win EQ / WoW model.
That is a low class player in a pure Pay-to-Win model (Though generally most MMOs are a hybrid of the two).
That is a near rock bottom player in a skill based game.
_________________________
Translating that back to the RNG/Casino aspect. When you run one raid/high level dungeon a day, and only do it 1-3 times a week, when you get to the end of a dungeon and have gotten no good drops, you feel completely robbed of your time.
When you run 20+ high level dungeons / raids a week a bad roll of the dice isn't going to phase you as much.
If you are willing to spend 10-30$ a month on a cashbox and that cashbox gives back crap, you feel like you just wasted a big part of your gaming budget for the month.
When you spend 200$+ a month, a bad roll of the dice isn't going to phase you as much.
That's fairly true. Raid bosses are inserting your time into the slot machine. Cash boxes are inserting your cash into the slot machine. So in a way, raids are a no-lifers version of a swipers cash box.
Except that the main prize in cash boxes are usually cosmetics and vanity items.
There's also monetization of RNG that is the direction they decided to go with.
This causes a frustration situation to some people, but the fact is that it's very successful and for companies, the money speaks success or failure, that's why this continues in a growing trend.
And you're missing the point completely... Time takes away a variable. It ensures everyone starts with the same amount of real life resources and, from there, orders the progression based upon who chooses to spend the largest percentage of that resource playing the game. But, when compared to any other player, that resource will always be a percentage of the same whole.
Whereas, wealth accrues at vastly different rates. That's why there's socioeconomic classes, but no sociochronologic classes in society. It's silly to even consider.
You're angry because someone who places more time into their hobby, using more of their free time to do so, has progressed further than you? You must not be a fan of any hobby where your endeavors can be compared to another's then. Generally, whoever spends the most time practicing the hobby, when said hobby involves any personal skill, will be the most masterful at that hobby. There's actually some science somewhere that proves that (just google "10000 hours mastery"). You're mad about that?
The basement dweller doesn't have the social life you do. He probably won't have a job he finds as fulfilling. He probably eats less healthy meals, meaning he's probably in worse physical health than you are. He may not have any other hobbies, his free time isn't spent as diversely as yours. But, and this may be shocking: none of that takes away from the fulfillment and enjoyment you get from spending your time in those other activities.
However, in a game where you can buy power, someone can purchase every ounce of power available in the store and, relative to whatever financial background they come from, it's opportunity cost is far less than someone less wealthy. $1000 seems like a lot more cash to the person who could make 4 month's worth of car payments with it.
And this doesn't even touch on the fact that prices do not adjust based on cost of living in any given area it services. $10 in southern California doesn't hold nearly the opportunity cost that $10 in central Alabama does.
I'm not missing the point at all. Time doesn't take away a variable. The amount of time you have to invest in a video game is VERY variable for anyone who has a life.
Equating the time investment required hobbies such as learning an instrument leveling is an absolutely metal line of logic that shows you really are avoiding thinking about the topic on any kind of deeper level so you can maintain your illusion that you "earned" the power gap.
Doing so requires you to completely ignore that in any skill based game YOU ALREADY GET BETTER OVER TIME.
There's no comparison between a system where you kill some enemies and all of a sudden your damage and health are 50% higher and you have a higher chance to dodge and deflect all the blows of the enemies you were just fighting and the idea of challenging yourself to play a more difficult song until you can play it well, or learning new wrestling moves until you master them or whatever.
For one thing. It's a double whammy. If your game actually does take skill to play all of a sudden you need to deal with leveling AND learning the game. The other reason is like I keep saying. Real hobbies are Skill = (Time * Effort * Natural Talent). Grinding is (Skill = Time). The lack of the need for effort to acquire skill is something unique to certain games whether you'll choose to acknowledge and admit that or not.
Yes time is involved in getting better at any hobby. No, time is not the only factor anywhere outside poorly made video games.
It's pretty clear at this point, it's not that you can't understand this, it's that you refuse to understand this as it undermines something you've been doing for hundreds or thousands of hours.
It's ok. The future of MMOs is very likely going to leave you behind, with nothing but memories of how "Uber" your character was back in the days of (Some old super grinding game). I don't think it's really worth debating with you anymore.
Again, you're railing against a prevailing theme of the RPG genre itself, not the MMORPG genre.
The accrual of power through items is a simulation of chance, though many RPGs also include items as quest rewards. Naturally, the more time you spend adventuring in search of items, the higher the likelihood of finding more powerful artifacts. You seem to despise this. However, it doesn't make a bit of difference in MMORPG monetization, because it has nothing to do with MMORPG monetization; it's an issue that cuts to the nature of modern RPGs.
EDIT- yes, certain games provide avenues to "farm" items/power by completing repetitive tasks over and over, independent of one's personal skill development. It's used to simulate long-term character development and/or simulate chance... We generally call games that use these types of simulation systems RPGs.
Progression has never been a requirement to classify a game as an RPG. You can read up on what actually makes an RPG an RPG in the link I gave if you would care to dispel your apparent ignorance on the subject.
I'll give a quick summary though. It has a lot more to do with roleplay and a lot less to do with power gaps and grinding.
Comments
It's kind of funny how you have tried 3...4? times but still can't understand the actual topic. It's NOT about P2W... It's about buying boxes of random stuff.. not knowing what you are getting.. and whether that is like a casino.
Care to try again?
I've stated my view (and admittedly gotten off topic over the last few responses to you). Maybe you did state your's somewhere but I don't remember after all the talk about players being gods, no lifers having an advantage, and other non-topical ranting... so where do you stand on the actual topic of buying random loot boxes?
Hint: This topic is NOT about buying ships in Star Citizen. It's NOT about buying yourself a Kingship in CoE and it's NOT about Crowfall. It's also NOT about grinding, the level gap between 1-50, or RMT. It's about the randomness of the purchases via loot boxes.
Edit: Nevermind.. I found it!!!! Here's your quote and we agree!!! All is well!!
Eldurian: As far as RNG cash boxes go, I don't touch them. If I feel that I need to in order to be competitive in a game (Which is usually false, usually they contain crappy cosmetics I don't want anyway), I won't play that game. That's a level of pay to win I'm not willing to touch with a ten foot pole.
http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/466733/mmos-are-now-casinos/p8#B8JqDMDkujIOGOiL.99
See Eldurian.. On THIS topic we agree! Awesome! No more to be said.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I addressed it with my first post in the topic. You can go back and hunt it down if you want.
Essentially what I said was that cashboxes suck, I refuse to buy them, and I won't play any game that I feel like I can't compete without buying them.
However pretty much every single one I've encountered offers nothing but ugly consumables and some minor items you can get more easily through other means. People whining cash boxes are "pay to win" are generally just people who hear the word cash box and have knee-jerk reaction. I can't recall even a single game I've played they were a real issue in terms of creating any kind of legitimate pay-to-win scenario.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
games I play I dont complain about because...well...I think they are good, and it might be worth you looking into instead of being closed minded about.
just a thought
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Me: play games, dont complain because I have nothing to complain about
'Other': Plays games, jumps on forums site and complains about features in said game.
hmmmm, how many times to have to make this illustration before it slowly starts to sink in?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
If you like 100% of every game you currently play you either don't play any games or you don't have very discerning tastes.
I have played AAA, I have played indie and I have been playing nearly every week for 37 years.
I should know a thing or two about what I like.
Its really hard (and you are trying very hard) to suggest that the people who complain the most about the games they play actually are playing better games then the ones who complain the least about the games they play AND have more experience AND have played both types
its not working...its weak sauce
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
It's just far visible now, what before was minimal changes to drop X type of loot killing X mob/boss is now things like loot boxes.
Except that the main prize in cash boxes are usually cosmetics and vanity items.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I don't open cash boxes because I like to buy things with a guaranteed value. Not open it and get several items that I don't need and are either untradeable and low in value.
I don't like dungeon loot because I like to get a guaranteed return on my time. Not run a whole dungeon only to have nothing of value to my class (or repeats of items I already have) drop.
Time = Money
All time has a value in lost opportunity to generate value. Both IRL and in-game. This is why for instance, in identifying ways to generate resources rather than doing every step of the process myself "Because it's free and I don't lose anything!" I calculate what step of the process generates the most money the fastest and focus on that step, and end up a lot richer in the end. Because in the time I spent focusing on low value processes to cut out the need to hire other people to do it I waste time I could have spent on high value processes generating more money in the same amount of time.
I do not like to invest money to get something back of lesser value, and I do not like to invest time to get something back of lesser value than the opportunity cost involved with the time spent.
You're, again, arguing against a central theme of RPGs (RNG) as if it's inherently bad or means de facto loot boxes or something.
It's not the "same principle really" or even generally, because time's generated for everyone at the same rate. It's a constant. No one has 25 hours a day, no one only gets 20 (ignore astronauts for the sake of this argument). Money enjoys no such constant. Time cannot be banked, to be released at a later time. Time cannot be used as legal tender to purchase a good or service. Time is not subject to inflation nor recession. And, once spent, time cannot be earned back.
Have a job? Subtract some playtime.
Go to school? Subtract some playtime.
Have a healthy romantic relationship? Subtract some playtime.
Have friends outside the game? Subtract some playtime.
Have parents and/or kids you spend time with? Subtract some playtime.
Eat home cooked meals instead of Hot Pockets? Subtract some playtime.
Involved in your community? Subtract some playtime.
Care about your physical fitness? Subtract some playtime.
Spend any time on reading / self-development? Subtract some playtime.
Any other hobbies? Subtract some playtime.
In terms of playtime your basement dwelling virgin that lives with their parents at 33 and has given up on relationships is rich. The closer you get to that, the richer you are.
Pay-to-Win gives an advantage to people who have more money and are willing to spend it on a game.
Play-to-Win gives more advantage to people who have less obligations and are willing to spend all that free time on a game.
People try to equate that games based on skill being Play-to-win as well. It's simply not true though. For instance one of my friends ex's had no job, no school, no friends outside her, got out of breath walking to the store (on the rare occasions he left the house) and sat on the couch playing games all day while she worked her butt off in the military. This dude couldn't even beat a dragon in Skyrim with a warrior though (Let's be honest, Skyrim dragons are cake as any decent build, especially a good warrior build). He spent lots of time playing but he had no drive, no desire to achieve excellence. He just ran through the motions all day, every day.
That is your top class of player in the pre Pay-to-Win EQ / WoW model.
That is a low class player in a pure Pay-to-Win model (Though generally most MMOs are a hybrid of the two).
That is a near rock bottom player in a skill based game.
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Translating that back to the RNG/Casino aspect. When you run one raid/high level dungeon a day, and only do it 1-3 times a week, when you get to the end of a dungeon and have gotten no good drops, you feel completely robbed of your time.
When you run 20+ high level dungeons / raids a week a bad roll of the dice isn't going to phase you as much.
If you are willing to spend 10-30$ a month on a cashbox and that cashbox gives back crap, you feel like you just wasted a big part of your gaming budget for the month.
When you spend 200$+ a month, a bad roll of the dice isn't going to phase you as much.
This causes a frustration situation to some people, but the fact is that it's very successful and for companies, the money speaks success or failure, that's why this continues in a growing trend.
Whereas, wealth accrues at vastly different rates. That's why there's socioeconomic classes, but no sociochronologic classes in society. It's silly to even consider.
You're angry because someone who places more time into their hobby, using more of their free time to do so, has progressed further than you? You must not be a fan of any hobby where your endeavors can be compared to another's then. Generally, whoever spends the most time practicing the hobby, when said hobby involves any personal skill, will be the most masterful at that hobby. There's actually some science somewhere that proves that (just google "10000 hours mastery"). You're mad about that?
The basement dweller doesn't have the social life you do. He probably won't have a job he finds as fulfilling. He probably eats less healthy meals, meaning he's probably in worse physical health than you are. He may not have any other hobbies, his free time isn't spent as diversely as yours. But, and this may be shocking: none of that takes away from the fulfillment and enjoyment you get from spending your time in those other activities.
However, in a game where you can buy power, someone can purchase every ounce of power available in the store and, relative to whatever financial background they come from, it's opportunity cost is far less than someone less wealthy. $1000 seems like a lot more cash to the person who could make 4 month's worth of car payments with it.
And this doesn't even touch on the fact that prices do not adjust based on cost of living in any given area it services. $10 in southern California doesn't hold nearly the opportunity cost that $10 in central Alabama does.
Doing so requires you to completely ignore that in any skill based game YOU ALREADY GET BETTER OVER TIME.
There's no comparison between a system where you kill some enemies and all of a sudden your damage and health are 50% higher and you have a higher chance to dodge and deflect all the blows of the enemies you were just fighting and the idea of challenging yourself to play a more difficult song until you can play it well, or learning new wrestling moves until you master them or whatever.
For one thing. It's a double whammy. If your game actually does take skill to play all of a sudden you need to deal with leveling AND learning the game. The other reason is like I keep saying. Real hobbies are Skill = (Time * Effort * Natural Talent). Grinding is (Skill = Time). The lack of the need for effort to acquire skill is something unique to certain games whether you'll choose to acknowledge and admit that or not.
Yes time is involved in getting better at any hobby. No, time is not the only factor anywhere outside poorly made video games.
It's pretty clear at this point, it's not that you can't understand this, it's that you refuse to understand this as it undermines something you've been doing for hundreds or thousands of hours.
It's ok. The future of MMOs is very likely going to leave you behind, with nothing but memories of how "Uber" your character was back in the days of (Some old super grinding game). I don't think it's really worth debating with you anymore.
The accrual of power through items is a simulation of chance, though many RPGs also include items as quest rewards. Naturally, the more time you spend adventuring in search of items, the higher the likelihood of finding more powerful artifacts. You seem to despise this. However, it doesn't make a bit of difference in MMORPG monetization, because it has nothing to do with MMORPG monetization; it's an issue that cuts to the nature of modern RPGs.
EDIT- yes, certain games provide avenues to "farm" items/power by completing repetitive tasks over and over, independent of one's personal skill development. It's used to simulate long-term character development and/or simulate chance... We generally call games that use these types of simulation systems RPGs.
Progression has never been a requirement to classify a game as an RPG. You can read up on what actually makes an RPG an RPG in the link I gave if you would care to dispel your apparent ignorance on the subject.
I'll give a quick summary though. It has a lot more to do with roleplay and a lot less to do with power gaps and grinding.