MMOs are now Casinos.

maskedweasel

I remember several years ago when the Free to Play conversions started happening, the "freemium" options were really where we saw a lot of companies going. Free games, cash shops, and subscriptions.

Now, it's all RNG boxes.  Money spent on chances to get the items you want.  Quite literally in a game I've been playing they have an RNG box where you can get a "Jackpot".  

I don't think that when the western games began the Free 2 Play journey that any of us saw so many of these games adopting a pay to roll scenario.

So many people just say "well that's RNG, deal with it"  and others say "I would never buy those RNG boxes".

How do you all feel about the way monetization has ended up in MMOs and online games these days? 

Tokken

Good point OP.  Gambling is a key part of many of the mmo's today.  Buying keys to open boxes in neverwinter got old quickly. I wasted too much money on the HOPE of geting something GOOD out of those boxes / chests.

Renoaku

Pretty much but given its like "Gacha" it bypasses U.S Laws when it comes to gambling which is why some Japan and people from foreign countries bring it into games and their business over to America where its legal because it was made illegal over there.

BitterClinger

I don't buy lottery tickets, and I don't pay for "a chance" to get something (ok, the occasional charity raffle).

I spend a lot of money on video games, and I mean A LOT of money. But when I buy something, it's because I know I am getting what I'm buying.

My first experience with RNG boxes was in Guild Wars 2. I think I bought keys a couple of times, and then realized what a terrible value they were. That was the end of that. I never paid to open boxes in Tera or Overwatch or any other game.

Even when I first heard about H1Z1 allowing players to buy drop boxes, but then having to fight over it; that was a deal breaker for me. If I buy something, I want the thing... guaranteed.

Just like lotteries and casinos, I think these RNG boxes target people who are terrible with money.

Braindome

I feel that it has gone too far and it's over, I have no hope. Consumers have accepted it and i'll have no part of it nor have I for years, they get what they deserve for supporting it and I have no sympathy nor do I any longer care. 

Octagon7711

Haven't bought a loot box in many years.  Actually, haven't been in a casino in many years either.

maskedweasel

Rhoklaw said:

Part of the reason I will support subscription games over F2P any day of the week. Except of course ESO, as they really don't do the RNG crap, so they get my approval.

I haven't played ESO since launch, but a buddy of mine told me they recently added some kind of RNG box?  Is that not true? 

Pemmin

i saw it coming
the switch from p2p to f2p was basically deregulating the industry and i was adamant about f2p being a bad idea for the consumer.

that being said.... cash shops containing only cosmetics, 1 time purchase dlc, and pay for convenience items don't really bother me.

what i don't like are pay2win and gacha boxes. i feel they ruin the game in a lot of cases. look at archeage for example.....the general consensus was that most enjoyed the alpha, but once it went live and p2w was in full swing....most couldn't justify playing it.

BitterClinger

Pemmin said:

...snip...

that being said.... cash shops containing only cosmetics, 1 time purchase dlc, and pay for convenience items don't really bother me.

...snip...

Convenience... players are pretty generous with their definition of convenience these days. RNG loot boxes notwithstanding, there is a high tolerance of pay-to-win mechanics in MMO gaming.

Tiller

Renoaku said:

Pretty much but given its like "Gacha" it bypasses U.S Laws when it comes to gambling which is why some Japan and people from foreign countries bring it into games and their business over to America where its legal because it was made illegal over there.

 

Amathe

OP makes a valid point. There are quite a few casino elements to buying a RNG loot box. 

Iselin

Yes they are.

They're obnoxious as hell when they're in your face and drop like candy as in SWL and they're more tolerable when they're tucked away in a shop you need to open to purchase as in ESO.

But either way they cheapen the game experience and like all cash shop offerings they can't help but take away from the game: not only do developers have to divide their attention and effort into game play /cash shop items, they actively pull items from games or nerf in-game equivalents to make the cash shop versions more attractive.

ESO, for example, has had the same rather limited choices of hair styles on character creation since release. But they have added many different alternate hair styles to the cash shop. A game that doesn't sell hair cuts for cash would have instead updated the available choices a long time ago simply because it's needed.

In ESO the RNG chests even take things away from the regular cash shop by making many mounts and costumes exclusive to the RNG chests only. It's actually sort of humorous that they not only nerf in game things but they also nerf the cash shop itself to make RNG crates more attractive. They even have loot crate "seasons" with different possible RNG loot so they can also entice you with the old tried and true "limited-time" gimmick which they now also frequently apply to cash shop items, not just loot crates.

Just imagine what they could do with the game if they didn't have to devote large chunks of their planning and development time to all this shit.

Slapshot1188

Torval said:

In the end it feels like the fruit of a problem and not the root of it in and of itself. The industry couldn't make it on subs alone. They couldn't make it on cash shops alone. Now they hit you from all angles (alpha/beta/EA buy ins, box/dlc fees, cash shop, and subs) and they are cranking up the prices wherever they can. At least it feels that way in the last year or so.

The industry was just fine on subs.  The problem was that in order to compete with the WoW juggernaut companies decided to essentially give their games away and try to lure whales in to pay big bucks.  The problems is that devalued the MMORPG commodity.  It set expectations with people that they should not even have to pay anything for a product, as though somehow they were doing the world a favor by playing it.   Instead of people looking at a $15 sub and going "Wow I can play for 100 hours a month which comes out to 15 cents an hour!!!", they go "Why should I pay $15 when the other ones are free".

"F2P" is the scourge of gaming.

Gavyne

Companies have just found out better ways to get people addicted.  Gambling is an addiction.  Being competitive in gaming is also an addiction.  You combine two together, hello easy money.

Before F2P became the norm in the West, EQ was already doing this gambling RNG thing in Legends of Norrath card game.  People spent hundreds, sometimes thousands, to open up these cards for a small tiny chance at getting a special illusion or mount.  And of course they started by saying no to Pay-to-Win, no no they would never add power items.  

But sure enough they added power items to these cards, so people again spent thousands just to have something others didn't have.  Gamers like to be competitive, they love to standout and be special.

No I don't like the movement towards RNG boxes, but it's everywhere now, and it isn't just in MMO's.  They are everywhere in FPS genre also.  MMO's like BDO pretty much built the whole game on RNG.  Even just buying something off the standard auction house is RNG based.

Sadly it isn't going away, people simply have too much money to spend.  And even when people don't have too much money to spend, they are still spending too much.  Gaming companies prey on people's addiction to gambling.  Why spend all that time and resources to create content when you could just give people RNG boxes to roll for jackpots.  Easy money for them.

waynejr2

maskedweasel said:

I remember several years ago when the Free to Play conversions started happening, the "freemium" options were really where we saw a lot of companies going. Free games, cash shops, and subscriptions.

Now, it's all RNG boxes.  Money spent on chances to get the items you want.  Quite literally in a game I've been playing they have an RNG box where you can get a "Jackpot".  

I don't think that when the western games began the Free 2 Play journey that any of us saw so many of these games adopting a pay to roll scenario.

So many people just say "well that's RNG, deal with it"  and others say "I would never buy those RNG boxes".

How do you all feel about the way monetization has ended up in MMOs and online games these days? 

I talked to someone a few years back who worked in the appropriate area of the FBI about these things and if they are considered gambling.  The short answer no.  Long answer:  No because money.   If you: pay money->win->get money, that would be something they looked MIGHT look into.  HOWEVER, many A-holes on the Internet are incorrectly thinking that this scenario is the same thing: pay money->win->get item->somehow sell item.  It is not considered the same thing.

Tiamat64

The house always wins when it comes to gambling (technically, "wins more than average", but that's not how the saying goes so whatever).  So when MMO developers realized they could become "the house" without having to deal with the legalities of it all, it was only natural they'd adopt such systems.

Slapshot1188

Torval said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Torval said:

In the end it feels like the fruit of a problem and not the root of it in and of itself. The industry couldn't make it on subs alone. They couldn't make it on cash shops alone. Now they hit you from all angles (alpha/beta/EA buy ins, box/dlc fees, cash shop, and subs) and they are cranking up the prices wherever they can. At least it feels that way in the last year or so.

The industry was just fine on subs.  The problem was that in order to compete with the WoW juggernaut companies decided to essentially give their games away and try to lure whales in to pay big bucks.  The problems is that devalued the MMORPG commodity.  It set expectations with people that they should not even have to pay anything for a product, as though somehow they were doing the world a favor by playing it.   Instead of people looking at a $15 sub and going "Wow I can play for 100 hours a month which comes out to 15 cents an hour!!!", they go "Why should I pay $15 when the other ones are free".

"F2P" is the scourge of gaming.

You keep setting up the narrative you want to believe. It doesn't change reality though.

Pot... meet kettle.

waynejr2

coretex666 said:

For me, monetization is the worst aspect of online gaming with all the cash shops, early access, crowdfunding without any guarantees, etc.

I dont even remember the last MMORPG which released as a finished product without any kind of cash shop selling ingame assets.

I kind of saw it as the flip-side of the same coin as those who could play all day because they live in their parents basement.

DrDread74

Reality is, those RNG people are 10x more profitable then you "smart" people who spend your money wisely. Hence capitalism will cater more and more to the more profitable people. 

Here in Las Vegas, there are slots in the Convenient stores. max of 5 by law I think, but every C-Store has them.

The amount of money the 5 slot "mini casino" makes is more then the store makes. Friend owns a C-Store, most C-Stores out here are opened up to break even or take a loss on the actual store but to make bank on the 5 slots. 

Its a form of entertainment you must realize. When you spend money on the movies, popcorn or even dining out, thats purely unnecessary "entertainment" except you'll never occasionlay jackpot a nice steak dinner. In a way, the RNG people are smarter than you

Kyleran

DrDread74 said:

Reality is, those RNG people are 10x more profitable then you "smart" people who spend your money wisely. Hence capitalism will cater more and more to the more profitable people. 

Here in Las Vegas, there are slots in the Convenient stores. max of 5 by law I think, but every C-Store has them.

The amount of money the 5 slot "mini casino" makes is more then the store makes. Friend owns a C-Store, most C-Stores out here are opened up to break even or take a loss on the actual store but to make bank on the 5 slots. 

Its a form of entertainment you must realize. When you spend money on the movies, popcorn or even dining out, thats purely unnecessary "entertainment" except you'll never occasionlay jackpot a nice steak dinner. In a way, the RNG people are smarter than you

Opiate sales are really profitable as well, even legally sold, still doesn't change the fact they are largely a scourge on society.

MaxBacon

Now? It's been a long time...

The monster of RNG is alive for a very long time

ZigZags

I wish we had more money sink gambling options in MMOs. I actually think the OP is totally wrong. Gambling doesn't exist in very many successful AAA MMOs, but it should.

Sovrath

maskedweasel said:

I remember several years ago when the Free to Play conversions started happening, the "freemium" options were really where we saw a lot of companies going. Free games, cash shops, and subscriptions.

Now, it's all RNG boxes.  Money spent on chances to get the items you want.  Quite literally in a game I've been playing they have an RNG box where you can get a "Jackpot".  

I don't think that when the western games began the Free 2 Play journey that any of us saw so many of these games adopting a pay to roll scenario.

So many people just say "well that's RNG, deal with it"  and others say "I would never buy those RNG boxes".

How do you all feel about the way monetization has ended up in MMOs and online games these days? 

Well, didn't free to play start in the east and aren't they big on games of chance?

Another thing some companies do over there is open up games, get as much money as they can out of them and them (opening up a lot of servers) and then close them and do it again. I'm pretty sure that western players would freak over that (I wouldn't be amused).

But these games take a lot of time and money, players are fickle, most don't want to pay a sub at what the "actual" rate might possibly be given inflation so here we are.

Companies try to get as much as they can how they can.

I read somewhere that only a very small percentage of players actually buy cosmetic items compared to the population of a game. Yet so many players scream "you should only include cosmetic items in the cash shop".

It's as if developers are screwed right from the start.

SEANMCAD

to be fair the very roots of RPG in dungeon and dragons contained dice which were the very symbol of RNG

maskedweasel

Sovrath said:

maskedweasel said:

I remember several years ago when the Free to Play conversions started happening, the "freemium" options were really where we saw a lot of companies going. Free games, cash shops, and subscriptions.

Now, it's all RNG boxes.  Money spent on chances to get the items you want.  Quite literally in a game I've been playing they have an RNG box where you can get a "Jackpot".  

I don't think that when the western games began the Free 2 Play journey that any of us saw so many of these games adopting a pay to roll scenario.

So many people just say "well that's RNG, deal with it"  and others say "I would never buy those RNG boxes".

How do you all feel about the way monetization has ended up in MMOs and online games these days? 

Well, didn't free to play start in the east and aren't they big on games of chance?

Another thing some companies do over there is open up games, get as much money as they can out of them and them (opening up a lot of servers) and then close them and do it again. I'm pretty sure that western players would freak over that (I wouldn't be amused).

But these games take a lot of time and money, players are fickle, most don't want to pay a sub at what the "actual" rate might possibly be given inflation so here we are.

Companies try to get as much as they can how they can.

I read somewhere that only a very small percentage of players actually buy cosmetic items compared to the population of a game. Yet so many players scream "you should only include cosmetic items in the cash shop".

It's as if developers are screwed right from the start.

Hopefully we don't see companies that just open and shut games to bilk people out of money.

The thing is, it seems like RNG is there because those that are paying won't stop paying until they get what they want.  In a recent study I read  .15% of players pay for 50% of revenue, and in total only 1.5% of the playerbase spends any money at all.

We're talking about situations where less than 2% of the population you see in free to play games is responsible for all of the revenue,  with less than .2% paying for most of it.  RNG definitely caters more to whales than to anyone else, and as they are already paying for the majority of the game, I see this as a natural progression.

But how far will games go to cater to the "whales" if it turns off a broader playerbase that might spend money.  Will it even matter at all? 

Kyleran

Torval said:

Kyleran said:

DrDread74 said:

Reality is, those RNG people are 10x more profitable then you "smart" people who spend your money wisely. Hence capitalism will cater more and more to the more profitable people. 

Here in Las Vegas, there are slots in the Convenient stores. max of 5 by law I think, but every C-Store has them.

The amount of money the 5 slot "mini casino" makes is more then the store makes. Friend owns a C-Store, most C-Stores out here are opened up to break even or take a loss on the actual store but to make bank on the 5 slots. 

Its a form of entertainment you must realize. When you spend money on the movies, popcorn or even dining out, that's purely unnecessary "entertainment" except you'll never occasionally jackpot a nice steak dinner. In a way, the RNG people are smarter than you

Opiate sales are really profitable as well, even legally sold, still doesn't change the fact they are largely a scourge on society.

Opiates are largely a scourge on society? I don't think modern medicine would work without them. Have you had major surgery? Think about what you said for a moment and if it's really true? Do you even have any evidence to prove your point that opiates are largely a scourge on society or are you basing that off of the fun national narrative issue of the day?

Definition of Scourge: a person or thing that causes great trouble or suffering

My oldest daughter is approaching 5 years clean this September after nearly a 13 year period of addiction which resulted in her actually "dying" twice from opiates and being resuscitated once by a hospital and once by her boyfriend.

So  yeah, it's a bit personal for me and I regularly have contact with the recovery community and continue to watch my the friends of my children die from this "scourge"

But if you want "evidence" I offer the following from the US CDC: 
Opioid prescribing continues to fuel the epidemic. Today, nearly half of all U.S. opioid overdose deaths involve a prescription opioid.1 In 2015, more than 15,000 people died from overdoses involving prescription opioids.

https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/data/overdose.html

Or this article from the American Society Of Addition Medicine which stated:
Drug overdose is the leading cause of accidental death in the US, with 52,404 lethal drug overdoses in 2015. Opioid addiction is driving this epidemic, with 20,101 overdose deaths related to prescription pain relievers, and 12,990 overdose deaths related to heroin in 2015. 5 

https://www.asam.org/docs/default-source/advocacy/opioid-addiction-disease-facts-figures.pdf

Additional News articles if you are interested:
https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-04-20/number-daily-opioid-overdoses-south-florida-overwhelming-police

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/fl-pn-heroin-emergency-20170322-story.html

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/americas-heroin-epidemic/florida-gov-declares-state-s-opioid-epidemic-public-health-emergency-n755056

Sometimes pain is the least of our problems, but we have gone way off topic.

If anyone would like to learn more I'll be happy to share offline.