MMOs are now Casinos.

Iselin

Distopia said:

maskedweasel said:

So basically you are paying for a chance to get items you can't use, or may never use unless you spend more money on things you don't want.

It's basically like getting a lottery scratch off ticket expecting to win a car and when "you win" you don't get a car, but a shift knob for a manual car which you don't drive.

Again no it's not... It's like putting a quarter into a machine and getting a random toy, it may be one you like it may be one you don't. Yet in the end it's just a toy. The entire motivation behind it is completely different than what you see in the lottery or in Casinos (some kind of big monetary payout)...

I understand people don't like cashshops, but the way they try and paint this stuff is purely sensational. These things are digitized toys, some of them are "cool" some you will find useful, some of them are not, but in the end it's just a damn pixelated toy. It's nothing more than that. The hyperbole on this matter is getting quite old TBH. 

So is that another way of saying that they're just games? I think we already knew that considering where the discussion is happening.

There are big differences between playing a flat amount and then dealing with in game RNG. Buying things piecemeal and then dealing with in game RNG. Or buying things through RNG and then dealing with in-game RNG.

Yes the world won't end tomorrow in any of the 3 cases. And not playing at all is also an option. But once you get past the relative unimportance of gaming, I don't see anything wrong with people having strong opinions about business models they like and don't like.

SEANMCAD

Rhoklaw said:

SEANMCAD said:

here is something for everyone to think on.

I dont say this as a complaint in a special snowflake way but rather as a fact. On these forums its fairly common place to pew pew games I like to play. Which is fine! everyone can play and should play what they want to play. But here is the thing, not a single game I play has in game monetization, at least not that I am aware of. In fact, in my entire life I have only seen it in game once so I barely even understand the full context of how it works.

So if one is playing the games they enjoy and those games have micro-transactions and they dont like micro-tranascations then...maybe...?

The problem is, MOST games coming out now are using cash shops and microtransactions because they KNOW how humans work. We are susceptible to gambling habits. Not everyone, but a lot of us. So in essence, game companies, specifically Asian MMO developers LOVE cash shop RNG.

My best examples are ArcheAge and Black Desert Online. Probably 2 of the best MMOs I've played in YEARS. Problem is, both games fell prey to cash shop nonsense and coupled with the fact both games were heavily focused on PvP, only magnified that problem even more.

I will admit, the GAME ArcheAge is probably one of the best I've ever played, but even being a masterpiece is not enough for me to approve of it's use of cash shop RNG. Especially since its a PvP heavy game.

but here is the thing to think on

ZERO of the game I have do that and never have.
ZERO

cameltosis

SEANMCAD said:

Rhoklaw said:

SEANMCAD said:

here is something for everyone to think on.

I dont say this as a complaint in a special snowflake way but rather as a fact. On these forums its fairly common place to pew pew games I like to play. Which is fine! everyone can play and should play what they want to play. But here is the thing, not a single game I play has in game monetization, at least not that I am aware of. In fact, in my entire life I have only seen it in game once so I barely even understand the full context of how it works.

So if one is playing the games they enjoy and those games have micro-transactions and they dont like micro-tranascations then...maybe...?

The problem is, MOST games coming out now are using cash shops and microtransactions because they KNOW how humans work. We are susceptible to gambling habits. Not everyone, but a lot of us. So in essence, game companies, specifically Asian MMO developers LOVE cash shop RNG.

My best examples are ArcheAge and Black Desert Online. Probably 2 of the best MMOs I've played in YEARS. Problem is, both games fell prey to cash shop nonsense and coupled with the fact both games were heavily focused on PvP, only magnified that problem even more.

I will admit, the GAME ArcheAge is probably one of the best I've ever played, but even being a masterpiece is not enough for me to approve of it's use of cash shop RNG. Especially since its a PvP heavy game.

but here is the thing to think on

ZERO of the game I have do that and never have.
ZERO

A quick search says that 7 Days to Die, at least on console, uses microtransactions to fleece the community out of additional money. Bit hard to tell for sure tho, the MS store only shows a load of skin packs (so, still got a cash shop and microtransactions) but a lot of forum posters in 2015 and 2016 were complaining about other types of pack on a pay2win basis, so sounds like they used to be worse but then removed it. 

I can't be certain as I don't play and have no interest in playing, but you shouldn't hold the indie scene up as some sort of outstanding model of awesomeness - it is just as riddled with microtransactions as everything else. 


Only thing I would agree with is if you don't like microtransactions, don't play games that have them in. Which I don't. 

Slapshot1188

Distopia said:

maskedweasel said:

So basically you are paying for a chance to get items you can't use, or may never use unless you spend more money on things you don't want.

It's basically like getting a lottery scratch off ticket expecting to win a car and when "you win" you don't get a car, but a shift knob for a manual car which you don't drive.

Again no it's not... It's like putting a quarter into a machine and getting a random toy, it may be one you like it may be one you don't. Yet in the end it's just a toy. The entire motivation behind it is completely different than what you see in the lottery or in Casinos (some kind of big monetary payout)...

I understand people don't like cashshops, but the way they try and paint this stuff is purely sensational. These things are digitized toys, some of them are "cool" some you will find useful, some of them are not, but in the end it's just a damn pixelated toy. It's nothing more than that. The hyperbole on this matter is getting quite old TBH. 

To me,  the true comparison is putting money ($1?) into a machine that 99.99% of the times it will drop a small rubber super bounce ball worth 5 cents. Once every so often it drops a token for an Xbox One console.  If you want the superbounce ball then you aren't gambling.  If you want the XBO you are.

maskedweasel

Slapshot1188 said:

Distopia said:

maskedweasel said:

So basically you are paying for a chance to get items you can't use, or may never use unless you spend more money on things you don't want.

It's basically like getting a lottery scratch off ticket expecting to win a car and when "you win" you don't get a car, but a shift knob for a manual car which you don't drive.

Again no it's not... It's like putting a quarter into a machine and getting a random toy, it may be one you like it may be one you don't. Yet in the end it's just a toy. The entire motivation behind it is completely different than what you see in the lottery or in Casinos (some kind of big monetary payout)...

I understand people don't like cashshops, but the way they try and paint this stuff is purely sensational. These things are digitized toys, some of them are "cool" some you will find useful, some of them are not, but in the end it's just a damn pixelated toy. It's nothing more than that. The hyperbole on this matter is getting quite old TBH. 

To me,  the true comparison is putting money ($1?) into a machine that 99.99% of the times it will drop a small rubber super bounce ball worth 5 cents. Once every so often it drops a token for an Xbox One console.  If you want the superbounce ball then you aren't gambling.  If you want the XBO you are.

I'd go one further with your original Mcdonalds analogy.  Mcdonalds has its Monopoly game every so often.  You can win 1MILLION DOLLARS!  Or a free side order of fries with a purchase of a chicken sandwich.

You want the 1 million dollars so you play the game. That is effectively gambling, you're looking for the payout,  but for every meal you buy, you seem to be getting a lot of side orders of fries with a chicken sandwich.  You may hate the chicken sandwich and never want to order it,  but that's what you get. A winner is a winner.

But herein lies the major difference.  These games are effectively worse than regular casinos.  In a casino you put money in the machine to get more money out of the machine.  You want that money, you can use that money.


In these games, you put money into the machine to get something you want out of the machine,  but you may NEVER get that item.  Even if you "win" you may never win that specific item, just anything in a loot table.


It's like a mobile game I play where it has these same kinds of loot boxes, but since its an international game they are forced to put the percentage chance for each item in the loot box.  Even when theres a big advertisement saying "GET THIS DROP FROM THIS BOX" when you look at the percentages it's a .0071% chance when it would regularly be a .0021% chance.  These are CHANCES, never guarantees, and that's where this system really irks me. 

laserit

As soon as a game is marketed as F2P, I look the other way.

B2P is quickly joining those ranks.

BTW: There is much less money leaving my wallet then when I found the payment models more tasteful.

SEANMCAD

laserit said:

As soon as a game is marketed as F2P, I look the other way.

B2P is quickly joining those ranks.

BTW: There is much less money leaving my wallet then when I found the payment models more tasteful.

the trick (and I am sooo lucky here) is focusing on the game play and not the imaginary rewards. let me try to explain with a real p2w game Fallen Earth.

because I had played the game in the past I knew playing the game with a tier 2 rifle running around the same world hitting the beasts that look almost the same as lower level beasts, doing the same kind of quests really was pretty much the same game play as I was doing for free.

so I just did free

SEANMCAD

I find the idea of finding ways for the players themselves to generate income while the developer gets a cut of the transactions to be very interesting.

'because its fun' is just not a good enough answer to me as to why a person can spend hours behind a computer screen playing a game for free and even pay to do it but they cant be motovated to work behind a computer screen. Hell they even want to be deeply intellectually engaged in the game, but not at work. 

If somoene can tap into that problem then its a friggin gold mine both for companies AND for players because then they would enjoy work

maskedweasel

SEANMCAD said:

I find the idea of finding ways for the players themselves to generate income while the developer gets a cut of the transactions to be very interesting.

'because its fun' is just not a good enough answer to me as to why a person can spend hours behind a computer screen playing a game for free and even pay to do it but they cant be motovated to work behind a computer screen. Hell they even want to be deeply intellectually engaged in the game, but not at work. 

If somoene can tap into that problem then its a friggin gold mine both for companies AND for players because then they would enjoy work

This is gameification and there are companies that work on databases that do this.  That's a topic for a different time. 

SEANMCAD

maskedweasel said:

SEANMCAD said:

I find the idea of finding ways for the players themselves to generate income while the developer gets a cut of the transactions to be very interesting.

'because its fun' is just not a good enough answer to me as to why a person can spend hours behind a computer screen playing a game for free and even pay to do it but they cant be motovated to work behind a computer screen. Hell they even want to be deeply intellectually engaged in the game, but not at work. 

If somoene can tap into that problem then its a friggin gold mine both for companies AND for players because then they would enjoy work

This is gameification and there are companies that work on databases that do this.  That's a topic for a different time. 

sweet! thanks best thing you have ever shared. and yeah side note

SEANMCAD

Torval said:

Sovrath said:

SEANMCAD said:

i say again.

RNG is one of the main cornerstone of gaming, it always has been, it always will be and its basically part of the 'physics' of what makes games work so what the f are you people talking about?

I don't think the complaint in this thread is about "rng" so much as rng "as gambling" in order to get ahead.

That's true and I'm loathe to say this, but there is a core truth that RNG is at the root of monetization and longevity of online titles. One "in your face" implementation is the loot box. The RNG built into core boss loot mechanics use the same design principle and that is to control progression and keep players hitting the RNG button in order to get ahead. Monetization is tied into both, the loot crates are just the laziest possible way to do it outside of a PayPal donate button.

There are some really bad design issues with traditional RNG, grind, the boss loot pinata held as a carrot on a stick, and the gear reset treadmill. Loot crates and obvious stuff are low hanging fruit. They're easy to hate.

Until we change the idea that progression should be monetized we'll never escape any of that and all mmo design will continue to revolve around that concept.

i dont agree with your conclusion.
There does exist today games that have broken the model of traditional grind we all know about. All it takes is a developer to do it and they have and it exists. its not related to payment models casino style or otherwise.

if I am understanding what your saying

DijonCyanide

I have played, & currently play a game, that has cash-shop random-number-generator (RNG) in it & dislike it.  First off, there is no RNG.  It's a programmed algorithm code similar to a slot machine.  So, theoretically, it could be manipulated.  The online gaming industry has loop-holed the law of gambling by stating they always reward a certain prize therefore it's not gambling.  Also, a few countries demand regulation on online gaming & accountability on the RNG tactics by having the companies announce the odds.  I'm not sure if the USA does or what agency would it be under:  Federal Trade Commission (FTC) maybe.  I doubt they care about it much despite the fleecing LOL.  We cannot even safeguard our own elections anymore.  Overall, it's a marketing manipulation tactic that preys on hopes & dreams of the pixel related.  Though I disagree with it since most online gaming companies don't announce the pitiful odds of RNG I, usually, remember one thing.  I have the power of control to not concede & throw away my money at such risks.  If an online game wants my money then offer something that I have fun at & a product/service which I know I'm getting & if I find the price a good enough value I wont mind investing my cash.

SEANMCAD

DijonCyanide said:

I have played, & currently play a game, that has cash-shop random-number-generator (RNG) in it & dislike it.  First off, there is no RNG.  It's a programmed algorithm code similar to a slot machine.  So, theoretically, it could be manipulated.  

I could not read anymore 

1. you are playing something you dont like
2. because its possible that something can be manipulated is not evidence that it is being manipulated and as a result not RNG
3. your assuming slot machines are manipulated which is actually against the law

I couldnt get past it

Subilac

I think of EQ1. You paid monthly, and had to work, group, and pull all-nighters to get even the simplest item. I know of people who bought their way in Runescape to all 99 skills buying lamps. Now, you pay, you will be maxed out. MMO work ethic is gone. 

RemyVorender

Being able to achieve anything and everything ONLY in game seems like an old dream now, doesn't it? Maybe the pendulum will swing the other way. I'd love the sub model to make a comeback. 

Nilden

Distopia said:

Slapshot1188 said:

The roll of the dice didn't enter the game.  It entered my purchase.

Let's go into McDonalds and order 5 mystery food boxes for $5.   Will I get a BigMac?  Chicken Sandwich?  Apple Slices?  Maybe I'll just get 5 drinks... who knows!  Sounds like fun!

Cash shops in games are something I despise.  RNG loot boxes in those cash shops is utterly ridiculous.
   

This stuff isn't like a casino, it's like those mystery eggs kids get out of a dispenser at a grocery store, you might get something cool, you might get some kind of pink slime blob. DO we now consider that gambling?

As far as what makes it in your purchase, it's whatever you put there... If you don't want it to be a mystery box? Don't put it in your cart, it's as simple as that. Might as well avoid loot crates and things of that sort as well in the physical world while you're at it. 

This would be a good argument if all the casino lock boxes did was give you random vanity pets but there are tons of games where gear progression is tied to buying lock boxes. Where ones competitive advantage in PVP is behind not just a single Pay 2 win purchase but as many or few purchases as it takes to upgrade gear that might break on multiple attempts.

@Sovrath I must compliment you on your calm replies to the special snowflake because his posts make me want to link to a 10 hour Jean-Luc Picard face palm video on youtube.

SEANMCAD

Nilden said:

Distopia said:

Slapshot1188 said:

The roll of the dice didn't enter the game.  It entered my purchase.

Let's go into McDonalds and order 5 mystery food boxes for $5.   Will I get a BigMac?  Chicken Sandwich?  Apple Slices?  Maybe I'll just get 5 drinks... who knows!  Sounds like fun!

Cash shops in games are something I despise.  RNG loot boxes in those cash shops is utterly ridiculous.
   

This stuff isn't like a casino, it's like those mystery eggs kids get out of a dispenser at a grocery store, you might get something cool, you might get some kind of pink slime blob. DO we now consider that gambling?

As far as what makes it in your purchase, it's whatever you put there... If you don't want it to be a mystery box? Don't put it in your cart, it's as simple as that. Might as well avoid loot crates and things of that sort as well in the physical world while you're at it. 

This would be a good argument if all the casino lock boxes did was give you random vanity pets but there are tons of games where gear progression is tied to buying lock boxes. Where ones competitive advantage in PVP is behind not just a single Pay 2 win purchase but as many or few purchases as it takes to upgrade gear that might break on multiple attempts.

@Sovrath I must compliment you on your calm replies to the special snowflake because his posts make me want to link to a 10 hour Jean-Luc Picard face palm video on youtube.

thing is I am a gamer, I play a lot of games, granted far less MMOs specifically but I have never experienced these crates you talk about. I have seen them talked about in videos for games I dont play and dont have an intrest in playing so I have a basic idea but not first hand experience.

Here is a thought.
Maybe your playing the wrong games?

maskedweasel

SEANMCAD said:

Nilden said:

Distopia said:

Slapshot1188 said:

The roll of the dice didn't enter the game.  It entered my purchase.

Let's go into McDonalds and order 5 mystery food boxes for $5.   Will I get a BigMac?  Chicken Sandwich?  Apple Slices?  Maybe I'll just get 5 drinks... who knows!  Sounds like fun!

Cash shops in games are something I despise.  RNG loot boxes in those cash shops is utterly ridiculous.
   

This stuff isn't like a casino, it's like those mystery eggs kids get out of a dispenser at a grocery store, you might get something cool, you might get some kind of pink slime blob. DO we now consider that gambling?

As far as what makes it in your purchase, it's whatever you put there... If you don't want it to be a mystery box? Don't put it in your cart, it's as simple as that. Might as well avoid loot crates and things of that sort as well in the physical world while you're at it. 

This would be a good argument if all the casino lock boxes did was give you random vanity pets but there are tons of games where gear progression is tied to buying lock boxes. Where ones competitive advantage in PVP is behind not just a single Pay 2 win purchase but as many or few purchases as it takes to upgrade gear that might break on multiple attempts.

@Sovrath I must compliment you on your calm replies to the special snowflake because his posts make me want to link to a 10 hour Jean-Luc Picard face palm video on youtube.

thing is I am a gamer, I play a lot of games, granted far less MMOs specifically but I have never experienced these crates you talk about. I have seen them talked about in videos for games I dont play and dont have an intrest in playing so I have a basic idea but not first hand experience.

Here is a thought.
Maybe your playing the wrong games?

Monetization through loot boxes is a problem, but the reason why it's a problem yet still works, is because the games they are adding them too are generally fun and enjoyable games.

Most of the best games have some version of these boxes.  It stands to reason that you haven't encountered these boxes often because the games you're playing aren't very popular.

SEANMCAD

maskedweasel said:

SEANMCAD said:

Nilden said:

Distopia said:

Slapshot1188 said:

The roll of the dice didn't enter the game.  It entered my purchase.

Let's go into McDonalds and order 5 mystery food boxes for $5.   Will I get a BigMac?  Chicken Sandwich?  Apple Slices?  Maybe I'll just get 5 drinks... who knows!  Sounds like fun!

Cash shops in games are something I despise.  RNG loot boxes in those cash shops is utterly ridiculous.
   

This stuff isn't like a casino, it's like those mystery eggs kids get out of a dispenser at a grocery store, you might get something cool, you might get some kind of pink slime blob. DO we now consider that gambling?

As far as what makes it in your purchase, it's whatever you put there... If you don't want it to be a mystery box? Don't put it in your cart, it's as simple as that. Might as well avoid loot crates and things of that sort as well in the physical world while you're at it. 

This would be a good argument if all the casino lock boxes did was give you random vanity pets but there are tons of games where gear progression is tied to buying lock boxes. Where ones competitive advantage in PVP is behind not just a single Pay 2 win purchase but as many or few purchases as it takes to upgrade gear that might break on multiple attempts.

@Sovrath I must compliment you on your calm replies to the special snowflake because his posts make me want to link to a 10 hour Jean-Luc Picard face palm video on youtube.

thing is I am a gamer, I play a lot of games, granted far less MMOs specifically but I have never experienced these crates you talk about. I have seen them talked about in videos for games I dont play and dont have an intrest in playing so I have a basic idea but not first hand experience.

Here is a thought.
Maybe your playing the wrong games?

Monetization through loot boxes is a problem, but the reason why it's a problem yet still works, is because the games they are adding them too are generally fun and enjoyable games.

Most of the best games have some version of these boxes.  It stands to reason that you haven't encountered these boxes often because the games you're playing aren't very popular.

that was not bad... but in true spirit to your approach 'good' and 'popular' are rarely the same thing but thanks for your insight

on another thread i read this insight into MMOs

'MMO gameplay has not gotten better since WoW. The genre will continue to rot until developers give us something noteworthy.'
Read more at http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/466598/why-are-mmos-dying/p3#fPXMtHoARQsEdLGr.99

maskedweasel

SEANMCAD said:

maskedweasel said:

SEANMCAD said:

Nilden said:

Distopia said:

Slapshot1188 said:

The roll of the dice didn't enter the game.  It entered my purchase.

Let's go into McDonalds and order 5 mystery food boxes for $5.   Will I get a BigMac?  Chicken Sandwich?  Apple Slices?  Maybe I'll just get 5 drinks... who knows!  Sounds like fun!

Cash shops in games are something I despise.  RNG loot boxes in those cash shops is utterly ridiculous.
   

This stuff isn't like a casino, it's like those mystery eggs kids get out of a dispenser at a grocery store, you might get something cool, you might get some kind of pink slime blob. DO we now consider that gambling?

As far as what makes it in your purchase, it's whatever you put there... If you don't want it to be a mystery box? Don't put it in your cart, it's as simple as that. Might as well avoid loot crates and things of that sort as well in the physical world while you're at it. 

This would be a good argument if all the casino lock boxes did was give you random vanity pets but there are tons of games where gear progression is tied to buying lock boxes. Where ones competitive advantage in PVP is behind not just a single Pay 2 win purchase but as many or few purchases as it takes to upgrade gear that might break on multiple attempts.

@Sovrath I must compliment you on your calm replies to the special snowflake because his posts make me want to link to a 10 hour Jean-Luc Picard face palm video on youtube.

thing is I am a gamer, I play a lot of games, granted far less MMOs specifically but I have never experienced these crates you talk about. I have seen them talked about in videos for games I dont play and dont have an intrest in playing so I have a basic idea but not first hand experience.

Here is a thought.
Maybe your playing the wrong games?

Monetization through loot boxes is a problem, but the reason why it's a problem yet still works, is because the games they are adding them too are generally fun and enjoyable games.

Most of the best games have some version of these boxes.  It stands to reason that you haven't encountered these boxes often because the games you're playing aren't very popular.

that was not bad... but in true spirit to your approach 'good' and 'popular' are rarely the same thing but thanks for your insight

Believe it or not it wasn't meant as an attack on what you like. It's just the truth.  You don't like mainstream games, and mainstream are rightly so due to their popularity which usually happens when games are "good enough" to reach that point.   Saying that one doesn't like loot boxes doesn't mean they don't like the game.  On the contrary it means they'd like it even more if the monetization was different.  

tawess

MMO´s was always casinos... the advancement from having you betting time to money was a natural one. 

Personally i do not really care. If the game does it in a shit way i do not play it. 

People are free to spend their money on what they want, people are also free to make dumb choices. 

Sector13

MMOs are casinos that allow you to be in them all day without paying a dime, hang out with friends, drink as much as you want and run around drunk acting like a dork then the staff asking after you ran around puking on everything if you can chip in for the cleaning fee which puts you in a raffle to win prizes ... man, such hard times people. 

MadFrenchie

Torval said:

Iselin said:

Torval said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Torval said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Torval said:

In the end it feels like the fruit of a problem and not the root of it in and of itself. The industry couldn't make it on subs alone. They couldn't make it on cash shops alone. Now they hit you from all angles (alpha/beta/EA buy ins, box/dlc fees, cash shop, and subs) and they are cranking up the prices wherever they can. At least it feels that way in the last year or so.

The industry was just fine on subs.  The problem was that in order to compete with the WoW juggernaut companies decided to essentially give their games away and try to lure whales in to pay big bucks.  The problems is that devalued the MMORPG commodity.  It set expectations with people that they should not even have to pay anything for a product, as though somehow they were doing the world a favor by playing it.   Instead of people looking at a $15 sub and going "Wow I can play for 100 hours a month which comes out to 15 cents an hour!!!", they go "Why should I pay $15 when the other ones are free".

"F2P" is the scourge of gaming.

You keep setting up the narrative you want to believe. It doesn't change reality though.

Pot... meet kettle.

Yeah because an entire industry collectively made that revenue shift decision because they thought they thought that would make more money by dropping the mandatory minimum fee and adding a cash shop.

And then you're trying to sell the idea that mmorpgs are a commodity, which they're not, and that it devalued them, which it didn't because mmorpgs charge as much as ever for each kind of revenue stream offered. Industry wide, have sub fees gone down? Have expansions and dlc fees gone down? Have cash shop items been devalued? No! None of that is true.

Take a true commodity, say petroleum, and when it is devalued you can see that fluctuation in the price of petroleum products and how it affects the global economy and, at the very least, use that commodity as an indicator of global economic conditions.

Sure. Like I said, you're setting up the narrative you want to believe. I'm not sure why @Kyleran would agree with such a shallow poorly reasoned personal attack (something you always cry about), but I can only guess that maybe he wants to believe your story too.

And all you can come up with is pot meet kettle as a rebuttal is because, as always, you have nothing of actual substance to say. Lot's a words, mostly air. You post is a juvenile diatribe because you have nothing else to bring to the discussion.

He may have used the term "commodity" inappropriately but his general point is not wrong. Calling the payment model free to play and not charging subs does indeed create a different expectation going in even if it's just at a superficial subconscious level even though we all know that free has severe limitations in all of them.

And he is also right that subs always were and still are a good deal if it's something you play a lot.

And F2P is indeed the scourge of gaming. It has created an acceptance of what amounts to commercials in MMOs as normal at both the development and playing levels. It's a rare MMO these days that can be experienced as just game play without some minor or major cash shop intrusion. 

The current MMO business model may be a necessary evil (although I'm not even sure that it is necessary) but it does absolutely nothing to enhance game play - quite the opposite. 

I don't think it's that simple. We love to over simplify things on this site. I almost always subscribe to a game, but I rarely play mandatory sub games for long periods. There is a difference.

Cash shops and micro transactions were coming before F2P. That started when goodies and collectors editions were a thing, long long before F2P. When it clicked with publishers that they could sell more by adding a little exclusive fluff, then it was just a matter of time before they started selling those items ala carte. F2P was just an excuse or catalyst to implement something already in motion.

When F2P bloomed all it mean is that you could play the game without a mandatory sub. It was "free to play" without a subscription. The publishers could  have gone with box fee and no mandatory sub. But they went with the micro transaction route because gamers consistently send the message that they like extra fluff and exclusive goodies.

Subscriptions didn't enhance gameplay. They detracted as much as cash shops, in a different manner. The necessary evils as you call them are inherent to almost every aspect of game design where money touches it and their acceptance or rejection is completely arbitrary and inconsistent.

Look at the world of cognitive dissonance that mmo gamers live in. MMO gamers want new mmos every year in a genre built around longevity. I'm pretty sure both you and Kyle echoed how you don't want mindless grind (in a Pantheon thread) in a genre that is built around grind. Why would you keep subscribing to your sub-locked game if you didn't have a mountain of grind to climb?

You're half right and half wrong in my opinion. You're right that F2P has been twisted into a monetization abortion, but more so that the industry can't stop trying to push revenue generation further and further squeezing players more and more. On the other hand you're wrong to think that pure subs were simply better and didn't affect mmo game design adversely. The truth is somewhere in the middle of that.

No, subs created the need for the developer to get you to continue playing, which, in the end, is what a hobby is.

Microtransactions reward you for spending by allowing you to skip or expedite experiencing the game, whether that be through having powerful items or XP pots.  You spend to avoid having to spend time playing the game.

The implementation is secondary, in my opinion, to the inherent traits of each system.  We play games to pass the time and enjoy ourselves.  Subs encourage developers to create content that allows us to spend more time enjoying the game.  Microtransactions, save for the purely aesthetic, encourage a player to rush through or bypass content.  One inherently lends itself better to a hobby as as way to spend time.

SEANMCAD

MadFrenchie said:

I don't think it's that simple. We love to over simplify things on this site. I almost always subscribe to a game, but I rarely play mandatory sub games for long periods. There is a difference.

Cash shops and micro transactions were coming before F2P. That started when goodies and collectors editions were a thing, long long before F2P. When it clicked with publishers that they could sell more by adding a little exclusive fluff, then it was just a matter of time before they started selling those items ala carte. F2P was just an excuse or catalyst to implement something already in motion.

When F2P bloomed all it mean is that you could play the game without a mandatory sub. It was "free to play" without a subscription. The publishers could  have gone with box fee and no mandatory sub. But they went with the micro transaction route because gamers consistently send the message that they like extra fluff and exclusive goodies.

Subscriptions didn't enhance gameplay. They detracted as much as cash shops, in a different manner. The necessary evils as you call them are inherent to almost every aspect of game design where money touches it and their acceptance or rejection is completely arbitrary and inconsistent.

Look at the world of cognitive dissonance that mmo gamers live in. MMO gamers want new mmos every year in a genre built around longevity. I'm pretty sure both you and Kyle echoed how you don't want mindless grind (in a Pantheon thread) in a genre that is built around grind. Why would you keep subscribing to your sub-locked game if you didn't have a mountain of grind to climb?

You're half right and half wrong in my opinion. You're right that F2P has been twisted into a monetization abortion, but more so that the industry can't stop trying to push revenue generation further and further squeezing players more and more. On the other hand you're wrong to think that pure subs were simply better and didn't affect mmo game design adversely. The truth is somewhere in the middle of that.

No, subs created the need for the developer to get you to continue playing, which, in the end, is what a hobby is.

Microtransactions reward you for spending by allowing you to skip or expedite experiencing the game, whether that be through having powerful items or XP pots.  You spend to avoid having to spend time playing the game.

The implementation is secondary, in my opinion, to the inherent traits of each system.  We play games to pass the time and enjoy ourselves.  Subs encourage developers to create content that allows us to spend more time enjoying the game.  Microtransactions, save for the purely aesthetic, encourage a player to rush through or bypass content.  One inherently lends itself better to a hobby as as way to spend time.

exploitation of those are easily persuaded by ego boosts is fairly common in all industries but yeah...basically what you described is true. They are targeting the naive (which I might add are also the games themselves in question)  but that is nothing new in any industry

SEANMCAD

Torval said:

So the horse came before the cart? They made a game and decided, hey let's charge a monthly fee for this because it makes so much sense. Then they realized, hey we didn't this through, we'll need to come up with more content to keep them paying.

Do people really have such a low opinion of the entire development community that they'd be so thoughtless as to jump into multimillion dollar projects without thinking their business strategy through?

No. @tawess summarized the point accurately.

Valve did data collection on F2P and they made that information public what it showed was the when you switch to F2P your revenue went up.

This is why so many companies are doing it now

and the people who bottom feed like we do in the sewers of Forums do not represent the majority

for me the real question I am literally fascinated by is why do people play games they do not like in the first place?