You are trying to find particular motives and purposes where there are actually none. You feel like to engage the guy in your sight? Go ahead...all just because you can, no conditions, no goals, no purpose.
Most MMOs have their PVP somehow structured - particular zone, flags, instances, objectives w/e, this is not the case tho, provided environment is non-consensual PVP.
You engage people because you can engage them, no particular reason or motive is required.
No, you engage them because there are no reprecussions like in Real Life, it is your online Safe Space to act out, those are your 'reasons.' If you are an a$$hole in RL you will lose friends, jobs or get punched into tomorrow. Here you can do whatever you want, its actually a powerful motivation, very cowardly too but a motivation nevertheless.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
No, you engage them because there are no reprecussions like in Real Life, it is your online Safe Space to act out, those are your 'reasons.' If you are an a$$hole in RL you will lose friends, jobs or get punched into tomorrow. Here you can do whatever you want, its actually a powerful motivation, very cowardly too but a motivation nevertheless.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Most people can actually tell the difference between reality and fantasy, realizing that it is just a game.
According to some of you folks, the Golden State Warriors are griefing the rest of the NBA.
I imagine many of you would pick up a game like Crowfall and accuse a person of griefing you because they killed you while you tried to mine or gather resources in a conflict zone. If that's your mentality you need to drop off from this conversation as you're just muddying the waters with personal hangups.
If a game has OWPVP in it and you load it up and play, you just flagged yourself for PVP. Full stop. There's no crying in baseball.
Purposefully knocking people off maps, training mobs in PVE games, spamming faction chat with messages, scamming, maliciously stalking, blocking entrances or NPCs in PVE, playing loud music over VOIP. These are examples of griefing. Getting killed because you are low leveled or under geared is NOT. That's poor PVP game design more than anything.
I don't see how this is such a difficult follow.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
No, you engage them because there are no reprecussions like in Real Life, it is your online Safe Space to act out, those are your 'reasons.' If you are an a$$hole in RL you will lose friends, jobs or get punched into tomorrow. Here you can do whatever you want, its actually a powerful motivation, very cowardly too but a motivation nevertheless.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Most people can actually tell the difference between reality and fantasy, realizing that it is just a game.
And most can tell the difference between utter horseshit and a genuine argument. Hence, what you're seeing here.
You are trying to find particular motives and purposes where there are actually none. You feel like to engage the guy in your sight? Go ahead...all just because you can, no conditions, no goals, no purpose.
Most MMOs have their PVP somehow structured - particular zone, flags, instances, objectives w/e, this is not the case tho, provided environment is non-consensual PVP.
You engage people because you can engage them, no particular reason or motive is required.
Let's do this one more time.
Even if you deny Psychological egoism, you'd only be able to argue that some actions aren't fueled by self-interest. Otherwise, there are no purposeless acts. And you can't say it's a coincidence either.
In a PvE game, you don't kill low level mobs which grant you 0 XP, 0 loot, 0 achievement, 0 score, 0 challenge, 0 award of any kind over and over again.
But in a PvP game, you somehow, to that to low level players. Just because it is possible. Just because you can. Just because the purpose of the game is PvP, you don't need a purpose, you don't need a reward, nothing. You just do it over and over again. I can see the purpose in this action, and I can see how enjoyable this can be. Because I have been doing it.
But you say you do it because you can. Because it's there. Like a mindless walking dead, like a fine machine running an algorithm, you just move through the game, without thinking of game design, without thinking of rewards and challenges, you just keep killing the same defenseless player. For no reason. Because it is there...
I don't think you believe what you say at all. I think you had some fair points in the beginning--which I, too, agree with--but then pushed it too far and got into an argument that you just don't want to walk away from. I'm not here to change your mind, or make you confess! There was a debate, and I shared my opinion. I think I have done more than enough of that unless I read something new at least.
I predict you will "lol" this post and make another one of your "no you're wrong" replies clad slightly different!
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
You are trying to find particular motives and purposes where there are actually none. You feel like to engage the guy in your sight? Go ahead...all just because you can, no conditions, no goals, no purpose.
Most MMOs have their PVP somehow structured - particular zone, flags, instances, objectives w/e, this is not the case tho, provided environment is non-consensual PVP.
You engage people because you can engage them, no particular reason or motive is required.
But in a PvP game, you somehow, to that to low level players. Just because it is possible. Just because you can. Just because the purpose of the game is PvP, you don't need a purpose, you don't need a reward, nothing. You just do it over and over again. I can see the purpose in this action, and I can see how enjoyable this can be. Because I have been doing it.
No, you engage them because there are no reprecussions like in Real Life, it is your online Safe Space to act out, those are your 'reasons.' If you are an a$$hole in RL you will lose friends, jobs or get punched into tomorrow. Here you can do whatever you want, its actually a powerful motivation, very cowardly too but a motivation nevertheless.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Most people can actually tell the difference between reality and fantasy, realizing that it is just a game.
On the other hand, one could actually doubt your ability to tell the difference when you are taking it so seriously that you are linking in-game behavior to real life behavior.
Well, when you're acting like an a$$hole you are acting like an a$$hole, it doesn't matter where you do it. There are no special circumstances where that is ok.
The only fallacy here is you trying to make a distinction and coming up with lame excuses to make your behaviour acceptable while in reality you are just being that, an a$$hole, the internet is just the place you chose to be one.
And why that gets to me? You're trying to make online bullying ok with cowardly reasons like 'the game allows it.' Because that is what grieving is in this case, online bullying, this had nothing to do with PVPing and can happen in a PVE setting too.
Now, LOL your frigging way out of this one, I bet you STILL can't see the difference. And that's ok, you'll be an ass online, I'll be a nice guy. We'll never meet in those many high quality OWPVP games you spend your time in... Ohh wait...
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
There is a difference between fantasy reality. The pixelated avatars on the screen are fantasy. The people controlling them are real.
This why I say... no be greatly upset at the idea you would kill someone on the screen in order to take their in-game items, because they were "talking crap", or because "They were an elf and I'm an orc." Because it's not real death, it's a fantasy death. It's far less significant than even a punch in the face IRL, with no comparison to actually killing someone. It's more comparable to killing one of their pieces in a match of chess.
But what you say to that person, the way you treat that person, that's all real, because that person is real. Yes you are only interacting with them via their pixelated avatar but the person behind the keyboard controlling that avatar is real flesh and blood. There is no meaningful distinction between what you say to them in-game and what you would say to their face. If you are willfully wasting their time or taking actions specifically cause them frustration that's no different then doing it to them in person. It makes you just as much of an asshole too.
And if you can't separate those two concepts, the idea of fake avatars and real people, then it seems that you would be the one who has a disconnect between fantasy and reality @Gdemami .
If you are willfully wasting their time or taking actions specifically cause them frustration that's no different then doing it to them in person.
....aaaand we are back to square one where argument was made that most actions people in this thread deem as griefing(spawn camping, killing defenseless players, etc) is actually not griefing but non-consensual PVP.
No, there is a huge distinction between non-consensual PvP and griefing.
If I go out into Low Sec, Null Sec, or Wormhole space to run PVE, and I get killed by someone looking to steal modules from me, that there is non-consensual PvP. However I went into an area known for danger as a calculated risk because I felt the reward was worthwhile. Someone looking to profit then made that risk a reality and killed me to take my crap. Of course if the person asked "Can I kill you?" I would say "No" because I don't want to lose my ship. But I understand why they did it, accept their motivations and while I'll return the favor I see it as a healthy in-game rivalry.
That is non-consensual PvP. It is not griefing. It is good for that game because it only happens to people willing to take the risks of going into those areas.
Now say I'm playing Darkfall and you are bound to a bindstone somewhere out in the wild. I kill you at the nearby bank and then see you respawn right back at that same stone. And I'm like "Hey, it's the Gdemami dude. He's a jerk and he probably has no friends he can call on to help him. Lets kill him every time he respawns until he logs out to show him I don't want him in this game." And then I proceed to slaughter you over and over and over for the next four hours, getting no loot from the process, getting no engaging combat from the process, but relishing every moment of your pain and suffering.
If you are willfully wasting their time or taking actions specifically cause them frustration that's no different then doing it to them in person.
....aaaand we are back to square one where argument was made that most actions people in this thread deem as griefing(spawn camping, killing defenseless players, etc) is actually not griefing but non-consensual PVP.
When the line crosses from PvPing or PvEing to purposely trying to destroy someones enjoyment is when we enter griefing territory.
The funny part is you are defending spawn camping which is as clear cut griefing as it gets.
I think where the line between griefing and non-consensual PvP actually gets fuzzy is when people are willfully targeting out newbs and carebears, particularly through abuse of mechanics meant as protections such as can flipping, even though there is more profitable PvP to be had elsewhere.
In those cases a motivation of profits can be claimed, or a motivation that "I just want to PvP". But the question remains, there are more profits and more PvP to be had in null/low-sec. Why were you specifically targeting people who want to be left alone?
I would say it's a desire to feel empowered by picking on easy targets which seems to classify as griefing to me. But hey, maybe those are the only targets they can kill. Maybe they think that high sec miner in a frigate actually has 100 PLEX in his hold.
At least you would have some kind of weak argument if that's what you wanted to defend, but you want to defend the literally most indefensible clear cut case of griefing that can be found.
When the line crosses from PvPing or PvEing to purposely trying to destroy someones enjoyment is when we enter griefing territory.
....was anyone disputing that?
The point is, people assumed intentions, greatly fueled by personal preconceptions, for actions or events that are related to non-consensual PVP mechanics rather than any actual personal motives, altough the outcome might be often the same.
Eldurian's post above is great example of such fallacy...
When the line crosses from PvPing or PvEing to purposely trying to destroy someones enjoyment is when we enter griefing territory.
....was anyone disputing that?
The point is, people assumed intentions, greatly fueled by personal preconceptions, for actions or events that are related to non-consensual PVP mechanics rather than any actual personal motives, altough the outcome might be often the same.
Eldurian's post above is great example of such fallacy...
No, nobody is implying anything. I, quite frankly, don't give a damn what your motives are if you're engaging in griefing. It doesn't change that you're engaging in griefing.
I've griefed people in retaliation for griefing an alt... But I'm not claiming it's not griefing simply because the game doesn't prevent the action.
When the line crosses from PvPing or PvEing to purposely trying to destroy someones enjoyment is when we enter griefing territory.
....was anyone disputing that?
The point is, people assumed intentions, greatly fueled by personal preconceptions, for actions or events that are related to non-consensual PVP mechanics rather than any actual personal motives, altough the outcome might be often the same.
Eldurian's post above is great example of such fallacy...
It's all mostly just an argument in semantics
Corpse Camping is a mechanic in which people will commonly use to grief others. Its also a legitimate and valid strategy in many circumstances.
This may be amazing to you but some people like to actually build up in safe areas then migrate out to dangerous areas when they are ready. Some people may play a sandbox game for the sandbox aspects and not the PvP.
In a proper risk vs. reward system they should be able to expect that if they avoid certain areas and behaviors their chances of being attacked are relatively low or even potentially non-existent. But then griefers come along and are offended people can mine the cheapest ore in the game without threat of suicide ganks or join a mission running corp without getting war decced. All they have is 90% of the map and the best resources and PVE to fight over. How terrible that there is someone not dying somewhere in their universe.
And nice way to say "Why are you..." to imply it's me we are talking about. I am a PvPer, probably a truer one then you will ever be as I'm the kind who refuses to kneel for zergs rather than the kind who like to play the role of 5th grader stealing lunch money from the 1st grader. I see the value of having all types of players in my community even if their playstyle is different than mine... especially if it's different than mine.
Only if you consider any non-consensual PVP griefing and in that case, you are...wrong...
Except I don't think anyone is arguing that any non-consensual PVP is griefing. What we are saying is griefing is griefing. And you are trying to pretend that no cases exist in which people are motivated by a desire just to be a jerk.
No, nobody is implying anything. I, quite frankly, don't give a damn what your motives are if you're engaging in griefing. It doesn't change that you're engaging in griefing.
I've griefed people in retaliation for griefing an alt... But I'm not claiming it's not griefing simply because the game doesn't prevent the action.
No, nobody is implying anything. I, quite frankly, don't give a damn what your motives are if you're engaging in griefing. It doesn't change that you're engaging in griefing.
I've griefed people in retaliation for griefing an alt... But I'm not claiming it's not griefing simply because the game doesn't prevent the action.
Is that supposed to be 'genuine argument'...?
It absolutely is. What part of considering the appropriate actions griefing, no matter who is taking part (myself included), seems less than genuine?
It's a far cry from attempting to distance oneself from the argument they're making. You disagree with people because you seemingly get your rocks off acting intellectually superior. It would be more disingenuous if I attempted to submit that my actions weren't griefing because it's me, or because the person I'm griefing has also performed the act.
That guy has every right to call me an asshole for griefing him. I agree; I was being an asshole to him. Only, he would also be a hypocrite if he attempted to whine about it.
I don't enjoy the suffering of others. But I do enjoy laughing at people that "suffer" because of a video game. Spilled milk is spilled milk. Don't give me the "gaming is my life" it's a great hobby sure, but unless it's putting food on your table it's just a hobby.
Comments
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I imagine many of you would pick up a game like Crowfall and accuse a person of griefing you because they killed you while you tried to mine or gather resources in a conflict zone. If that's your mentality you need to drop off from this conversation as you're just muddying the waters with personal hangups.
If a game has OWPVP in it and you load it up and play, you just flagged yourself for PVP. Full stop. There's no crying in baseball.
Purposefully knocking people off maps, training mobs in PVE games, spamming faction chat with messages, scamming, maliciously stalking, blocking entrances or NPCs in PVE, playing loud music over VOIP. These are examples of griefing. Getting killed because you are low leveled or under geared is NOT. That's poor PVP game design more than anything.
I don't see how this is such a difficult follow.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Even if you deny Psychological egoism, you'd only be able to argue that some actions aren't fueled by self-interest. Otherwise, there are no purposeless acts. And you can't say it's a coincidence either.
In a PvE game, you don't kill low level mobs which grant you 0 XP, 0 loot, 0 achievement, 0 score, 0 challenge, 0 award of any kind over and over again.
But in a PvP game, you somehow, to that to low level players. Just because it is possible. Just because you can. Just because the purpose of the game is PvP, you don't need a purpose, you don't need a reward, nothing. You just do it over and over again. I can see the purpose in this action, and I can see how enjoyable this can be. Because I have been doing it.
But you say you do it because you can. Because it's there. Like a mindless walking dead, like a fine machine running an algorithm, you just move through the game, without thinking of game design, without thinking of rewards and challenges, you just keep killing the same defenseless player. For no reason. Because it is there...
I don't think you believe what you say at all. I think you had some fair points in the beginning--which I, too, agree with--but then pushed it too far and got into an argument that you just don't want to walk away from. I'm not here to change your mind, or make you confess!
I predict you will "lol" this post and make another one of your "no you're wrong" replies clad slightly different!
The only fallacy here is you trying to make a distinction and coming up with lame excuses to make your behaviour acceptable while in reality you are just being that, an a$$hole, the internet is just the place you chose to be one.
And why that gets to me? You're trying to make online bullying ok with cowardly reasons like 'the game allows it.' Because that is what grieving is in this case, online bullying, this had nothing to do with PVPing and can happen in a PVE setting too.
Now, LOL your frigging way out of this one, I bet you STILL can't see the difference. And that's ok, you'll be an ass online, I'll be a nice guy. We'll never meet in those many high quality OWPVP games you spend your time in... Ohh wait...
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
This why I say... no be greatly upset at the idea you would kill someone on the screen in order to take their in-game items, because they were "talking crap", or because "They were an elf and I'm an orc." Because it's not real death, it's a fantasy death. It's far less significant than even a punch in the face IRL, with no comparison to actually killing someone. It's more comparable to killing one of their pieces in a match of chess.
But what you say to that person, the way you treat that person, that's all real, because that person is real. Yes you are only interacting with them via their pixelated avatar but the person behind the keyboard controlling that avatar is real flesh and blood. There is no meaningful distinction between what you say to them in-game and what you would say to their face. If you are willfully wasting their time or taking actions specifically cause them frustration that's no different then doing it to them in person. It makes you just as much of an asshole too.
And if you can't separate those two concepts, the idea of fake avatars and real people, then it seems that you would be the one who has a disconnect between fantasy and reality @Gdemami .
If I go out into Low Sec, Null Sec, or Wormhole space to run PVE, and I get killed by someone looking to steal modules from me, that there is non-consensual PvP. However I went into an area known for danger as a calculated risk because I felt the reward was worthwhile. Someone looking to profit then made that risk a reality and killed me to take my crap. Of course if the person asked "Can I kill you?" I would say "No" because I don't want to lose my ship. But I understand why they did it, accept their motivations and while I'll return the favor I see it as a healthy in-game rivalry.
That is non-consensual PvP. It is not griefing. It is good for that game because it only happens to people willing to take the risks of going into those areas.
Now say I'm playing Darkfall and you are bound to a bindstone somewhere out in the wild. I kill you at the nearby bank and then see you respawn right back at that same stone. And I'm like "Hey, it's the Gdemami dude. He's a jerk and he probably has no friends he can call on to help him. Lets kill him every time he respawns until he logs out to show him I don't want him in this game." And then I proceed to slaughter you over and over and over for the next four hours, getting no loot from the process, getting no engaging combat from the process, but relishing every moment of your pain and suffering.
That is griefing.
You see the difference between these two things?
IMHO
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I think where the line between griefing and non-consensual PvP actually gets fuzzy is when people are willfully targeting out newbs and carebears, particularly through abuse of mechanics meant as protections such as can flipping, even though there is more profitable PvP to be had elsewhere.
In those cases a motivation of profits can be claimed, or a motivation that "I just want to PvP". But the question remains, there are more profits and more PvP to be had in null/low-sec. Why were you specifically targeting people who want to be left alone?
I would say it's a desire to feel empowered by picking on easy targets which seems to classify as griefing to me. But hey, maybe those are the only targets they can kill. Maybe they think that high sec miner in a frigate actually has 100 PLEX in his hold.
At least you would have some kind of weak argument if that's what you wanted to defend, but you want to defend the literally most indefensible clear cut case of griefing that can be found.
The point is, people assumed intentions, greatly fueled by personal preconceptions, for actions or events that are related to non-consensual PVP mechanics rather than any actual personal motives, altough the outcome might be often the same.
Eldurian's post above is great example of such fallacy...
I've griefed people in retaliation for griefing an alt... But I'm not claiming it's not griefing simply because the game doesn't prevent the action.
You are the problem, not people killing you.
Corpse Camping is a mechanic in which people will commonly use to grief others. Its also a legitimate and valid strategy in many circumstances.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Doesn't matter how they go about it.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
In a proper risk vs. reward system they should be able to expect that if they avoid certain areas and behaviors their chances of being attacked are relatively low or even potentially non-existent. But then griefers come along and are offended people can mine the cheapest ore in the game without threat of suicide ganks or join a mission running corp without getting war decced. All they have is 90% of the map and the best resources and PVE to fight over. How terrible that there is someone not dying somewhere in their universe.
And nice way to say "Why are you..." to imply it's me we are talking about. I am a PvPer, probably a truer one then you will ever be as I'm the kind who refuses to kneel for zergs rather than the kind who like to play the role of 5th grader stealing lunch money from the 1st grader. I see the value of having all types of players in my community even if their playstyle is different than mine... especially if it's different than mine.
It's a far cry from attempting to distance oneself from the argument they're making. You disagree with people because you seemingly get your rocks off acting intellectually superior. It would be more disingenuous if I attempted to submit that my actions weren't griefing because it's me, or because the person I'm griefing has also performed the act.
That guy has every right to call me an asshole for griefing him. I agree; I was being an asshole to him. Only, he would also be a hypocrite if he attempted to whine about it.
"Mommy! That other kid pushed me!"