2nd Gamasutra article is up about Star Citizen

Kefo

https://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/MattBrady/20170901/304964/Star_Citizen_A_Close_Look_at_the_Cash.php


and in case you missed the first article here is the forum topic that I posted when the first went up.

http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/467573/gamasutra-community-member-writes-1st-of-3-articles-on-sc

gervaise1

Not unlike what we sometimes do on these very forums for various games. Although we usually position our assessments as "broad brush" in scope. 

One can make various "minor observations" e.g. overseas staff rates, no allowance for government investment rebates etc. but I think the biggest niggle I have is: $50M "advertsing costs" for a pre-sold game ......
rnment etc.).

  

Erillion

So all these articles boil down to one sentence:

"...In the spirit of transparency, it’s time for backers to demand quarterly updates on the cash position of the company, or better yet, quarterly releases of the balance sheet. ..."

That - in my opinion - will not happen, as CIG is a private company. Some backers (and some other ;-) people) have "demanded" this years ago. And it did not happen. No surprise there.

It is also important to note that these articles were not written by Gamasutra staff members. They were written by a member of the community and everything in there is to be considered his opinion (as Gamasutra mentions at the beginning of the article). Here on this mmorpg subforum we had many threads with similar calculations. And threads with similar "demands". Therefore i personally do not see much news in the article - one finds similar calculations on many different forums discussing Star Citizen.


Have fun

rpmcmurphy

I agree it's not going to happen, it is a silly thing to expect to happen and it was a silly thing for CIG to have put in their original terms of service in the first place.

Tiamat64

Erillion said:

So all these articles boil down to one sentence:

"...In the spirit of transparency, it’s time for backers to demand quarterly updates on the cash position of the company, or better yet, quarterly releases of the balance sheet. ..."

That - in my opinion - will not happen, as CIG is a private company. Some backers (and some other ;-) people) have "demanded" this years ago. And it did not happen. No surprise there.

It is also important to note that these articles were not written by Gamasutra staff members. They were written by a member of the community and everything in there is to be considered his opinion (as Gamasutra mentions at the beginning of the article). Here on this mmorpg subforum we had many threads with similar calculations. And threads with similar "demands". Therefore i personally do not see much news in the article - one finds similar calculations on many different forums discussing Star Citizen.


Have fun

Yep.  The benefits of being funded by investors who aren't actually investors and get absolutely none of the investor perks.

VorpalChicken28

Financial transparency would be awesome, but as Erillion stated it's not going to happen.

To be honest if you look in depth at CIG they have a few times done a few hinky things from a financial perspective, so I doubt they now would ever release any details.

Erillion

Tiamat64 said:

Yep.  The benefits of being funded by investors who aren't actually investors and get absolutely none of the investor perks.

I participate in a crowdfunding campaign. I am not an investor. I do not WANT to be an investor.

What people rarely understand is that investors not only get perks ... they also have responsibilities. If a company goes belly up, an investor may have to pay extra money to cover outstanding liabilities in case of insolvency. Even if it is a full success, they may have to pay taxes.
A fact that is easily forgotten. While the "IRS" (its not called that in my country) never forgives and never forgets.


Have fun 

Arglebargle

VorpalChicken28 said:

Financial transparency would be awesome, but as Erillion stated it's not going to happen.

To be honest if you look in depth at CIG they have a few times done a few hinky things from a financial perspective, so I doubt they now would ever release any details.

Which is why CIG will never follow through with any legal threat they make.  Anyone who can afford the legal fees could start delving into the financial undergrowth of the company, which they absolutely do not want.

Tiamat64

Erillion said:

Tiamat64 said:

Yep.  The benefits of being funded by investors who aren't actually investors and get absolutely none of the investor perks.

I participate in a crowdfunding campaign. I am not an investor. I do not WANT to be an investor.

What people rarely understand is that investors not only get perks ... they also have responsibilities. If a company goes belly up, an investor may have to pay extra money to cover outstanding liabilities in case of insolvency. Even if it is a full success, they may have to pay taxes.
A fact that is easily forgotten. While the "IRS" (its not called that in my country) never forgives and never forgets.


Have fun 

They only have to pay taxes because they actually make money off the thing.  That's akin to saying "One should not earn income because one has to pay income taxes".

....also, investors having to pay extra money to cover outstanding liabilities in case of insolvency?  Since when?  Source, please?  I'm pretty sure that's not how investments work and running internet searches on the matter are turning up nothing regarding that.

Babuinix

rpmcmurphy said:

I agree it's not going to happen, it is a silly thing to expect to happen and it was a silly thing for CIG to have put in their original terms of service in the first place.

That's why they never putted it in their original TOS in the first place lol

rpmcmurphy

Babuinix said:

rpmcmurphy said:

I agree it's not going to happen, it is a silly thing to expect to happen and it was a silly thing for CIG to have put in their original terms of service in the first place.

That's why they never putted it in their original TOS in the first place lol

Now that is a lie.

In their original ToS they said they would release financial details if the project went X amount of time past the 2014 date iirc. There was a big hooha about the ToS change which I'm perfectly sure you are aware of so let's not lie about something so easily provable eh.

Talonsin

Babuinix said:

rpmcmurphy said:

Babuinix said:

rpmcmurphy said:

I agree it's not going to happen, it is a silly thing to expect to happen and it was a silly thing for CIG to have put in their original terms of service in the first place.

That's why they never putted it in their original TOS in the first place lol

Now that is a lie.

In their original ToS they said they would release financial details if the project went X amount of time past the 2014 date iirc. There was a big hooha about the ToS change which I'm perfectly sure you are aware of so let's not lie about something so easily provable eh.

[mod edit]

They "kind of" did but it was based on CIG not delivering the game or pledge items.

"In the unlikely event that RSI is not able to deliver the Game and/or the pledge items, RSI agrees to post an audited cost accounting on the Website to fully explain the use of the amounts paid for Pledge Item Cost and the Game Cost. "

MaxBacon

Talonsin said:

They "kind of" did but it was based on CIG not delivering the game or pledge items.

"In the unlikely event that RSI is not able to deliver the Game and/or the pledge items, RSI agrees to post an audited cost accounting on the Website to fully explain the use of the amounts paid for Pledge Item Cost and the Game Cost. "

This is correct, the term is still present, the first 12 months / 18 months were tied to refunds liability.

hfztt

Erillion said:

A fact that is easily forgotten. While the "IRS" (its not called that in my country) never forgives and never forgets.

Come to denmark. Our "IRS" forgets a lot and they forgive after 5 years...

lahnmir

hfztt said:

Erillion said:

A fact that is easily forgotten. While the "IRS" (its not called that in my country) never forgives and never forgets.

Come to denmark. Our "IRS" forgets a lot and they forgive after 5 years...

I recently went there actually. A frigging great country but quite expensive. Not as expensive as some SC stuff of course but still pretty expensive 

/Cheers,
Lahnmir  

CrazKanuk

Ouch!! Re-hash some numbers that have been tossed around for a number of years and then ask people to pay a subscription to have you surf the Internet and come up with more numbers that people have already used. That's so..... cringe-worthy. 

Erillion

hfztt said:

Erillion said:

A fact that is easily forgotten. While the "IRS" (its not called that in my country) never forgives and never forgets.

Come to denmark. Our "IRS" forgets a lot and they forgive after 5 years...

The Austrian "IRS" / "Finanzamt" is a bit more greedy.

We have limitation periods between 5 and 15 years. But such a period can be declared "obstructed" ... which basically stops the clock.

A recent revision introduces a "absolute limitation of action" that would change it so that even an "obstruction" cannot cause a delay longer than 15 years. That would be comparable to the 5 years in Denmark you mentioned.

The Austrian "Finanzamt"  (like the German one and several others) even buys stolen files on the Dark Net. It was a list of Austrian bank customers in Lichtenstein that tried to avoid taxes. An unknown bank employee has copied a lot of financial data and was selling it to anyone interested.

See also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Liechtenstein_tax_affair


Have fun

laserit

Erillion said:

hfztt said:

Erillion said:

A fact that is easily forgotten. While the "IRS" (its not called that in my country) never forgives and never forgets.

Come to denmark. Our "IRS" forgets a lot and they forgive after 5 years...

The Austrian "IRS" / "Finanzamt" is a bit more greedy.

We have limitation periods between 5 and 15 years. But such a period can be declared "obstructed" ... which basically stops the clock.

A recent revision introduces a "absolute limitation of action" that would change it so that even an "obstruction" cannot cause a delay longer than 15 years. That would be comparable to the 5 years in Denmark you mentioned.

The Austrian "Finanzamt"  (like the German one and several others) even buys stolen files on the Dark Net. It was a list of Austrian bank customers in Lichtenstein that tried to avoid taxes. An unknown bank employee has copied a lot of financial data and was selling it to anyone interested.

See also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Liechtenstein_tax_affair


Have fun

I wonder if that unknown bank employee was claiming that income on their taxes

Balmong

The only way I, as a backer, feel entitled to the financials is if production goes belly up. So far there has been no sign of that happening anytime soon, so I am content to watch it play out.

Babuinix

Balmong said:

The only way I, as a backer, feel entitled to the financials is if production goes belly up. So far there has been no sign of that happening anytime soon, so I am content to watch it play out.

The only sensible way of going with it tbh.

Kefo

Babuinix said:

Balmong said:

The only way I, as a backer, feel entitled to the financials is if production goes belly up. So far there has been no sign of that happening anytime soon, so I am content to watch it play out.

The only sensible way of going with it tbh.

Yeah why hold CIG or CR accountable for what they promised when it's easier to turn a blind eye

Erillion

Kefo said:

Yeah why hold CIG or CR accountable for what they promised when it's easier to turn a blind eye

It is only you that claims that they promised this.

They did not.

That you keep repeating your claim does not make it any more valid.


Have fun

Kefo

Erillion said:

Kefo said:

Yeah why hold CIG or CR accountable for what they promised when it's easier to turn a blind eye

It is only you that claims that they promised this.

They did not.

That you keep repeating your claim does not make it any more valid.


Have fun

Only me eh? you think I'm the only one on this forum who thinks they need to be held accountable for what they say and fans shouldn't turn a blind eye?

Do I really need to point out how wrong you are?

Talonsin

I wish crowd funding required open reporting of financials.  It would be interesting to see how much money Chris, Sandi and Ortwin have taken from the project over the last 5 years.

Erillion

Kefo said:

Only me eh? you think I'm the only one on this forum who thinks they need to be held accountable for what they say and fans shouldn't turn a blind eye?

Do I really need to point out how wrong you are?

I think you are someone that makes false claims.

Claims that are easily fact checked by reading the TOS. Old or new version .. does not matter.

You claim they promised a certain thing.

They never did.

Not under the old TOS. Not under the new TOS.



Have fun

Kefo

Erillion said:

Kefo said:

Only me eh? you think I'm the only one on this forum who thinks they need to be held accountable for what they say and fans shouldn't turn a blind eye?

Do I really need to point out how wrong you are?

I think you are someone that makes false claims.

Claims that are easily fact checked by reading the TOS. Old or new version .. does not matter.

You claim they promised a certain thing.

They never did.

Not under the old TOS. Not under the new TOS.



Have fun

Revisionist history at its greatest here folks