This topic in general fascinates me (on the 'all' games side)
on the one side you have people complaining about the 'state' of gaming and then laugh at someone who suggests taking a look at indie becuase he feels its the best era in gaming ever.
not a single solitary remote hint of curiosity to look over the fence and then when confronted they claim they adore and like the games they are playing that they just complained about 10 mins prior
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
It's OK, he's already stated he likely wouldn't speak to you in game so you'll never know.
Yeh. In fact, i will be no different than a NPC, or some random internet dude who just PUG and leaves.
You can't tell the difference anyway. If you really want social interaction, here (this forum) is 10x better than any MMO or online games. MMOs are no longer places for social interactions.
No. MMORPG perfection was pre NGE SWG. That is what I want. It was the next step game coming from pre Trammel UO, but now everyone is just making it ll about theme parks and hand holding.
The golden age has come and gone.
I had a good feeling about Repopulation, but look how that turned out.
Why did every game have to be a world of warcraft clone since 2004?
They are not. Destiny 1 & 2 are not a wow clone, unless you think shooting is a clone of slow tab-targeting action.
Warframe is not a wow clone. Overwatch is not a wow clone. World of Tank is not a wow clone. Star conflict is not a wow clone.
Heck, even Mu Legend is not a wow clone .. it is more like a Diablo clone.
So where is this "every game" comment comes from?
My comment was referring to the MMORPG genre, but you are right - there are games that are different too, like Black Desert and Archeage which ended up becoming pay to win cash shops because the developers got too greedy.
First person shooters like Destiny 1 & 2 don't really belong in the MMORPG category, nor does Overwatch or world of tanks.
This are a question for those who started the MMOs back in late 90s and early 00s.
What did you think back then how the future of MMOs would evolve and how much right and wrong are you today?
Back in the early MMO days, the gigantic worlds... so easy to get immersed. Granted, there was a lot of empty void in those worlds, but they felt real enough. I imaged MMOs 15 years later we be much like the old simulator worlds, but on an even grander scale with no empty voids and more "freedom". Instead, the genre has devolved into this tiny instanced quest grinder type thing.
This are a question for those who started the MMOs back in late 90s and early 00s.
What did you think back then how the future of MMOs would evolve and how much right and wrong are you today?
Back in the early MMO days, the gigantic worlds... so easy to get immersed. Granted, there was a lot of empty void in those worlds, but they felt real enough. I imaged MMOs 15 years later we be much like the old simulator worlds, but on an even grander scale with no empty voids and more "freedom". Instead, the genre has devolved into this tiny instanced quest grinder type thing.
you can get the same experience and a lot more depth out of single/multiplayer player games now. Space Engineers, Medievil Engineers, empyrion galactic survival, 7 Days to Die, Subnautica, Rust, The Forest (although not massive map), Wurm, Life is Feudal(although small map)...lesser 'close to being finished' examples would be Osiris, Kingdoms, Rising World and on the 8 bit(ish) world there is StarMade and many many others that I honestly cant speak to
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
This are a question for those who started the MMOs back in late 90s and early 00s.
What did you think back then how the future of MMOs would evolve and how much right and wrong are you today?
Back in the early MMO days, the gigantic worlds... so easy to get immersed. Granted, there was a lot of empty void in those worlds, but they felt real enough. I imaged MMOs 15 years later we be much like the old simulator worlds, but on an even grander scale with no empty voids and more "freedom". Instead, the genre has devolved into this tiny instanced quest grinder type thing.
Yes, and I expected a lot more interactions with the world in pursuit of mysteries. Moving parts sort of interactions. Not just levers and buttons to open secret passages and alcoves, but spinning fireplaces and water filled basins and putting the gemstone eyes back in the statues sorts of interactions. This stuff should be cool, one of a kind challenges to all, with "the one" as the hero. There's no limit to what can be done so content of this sort, since it should be difficult to solve, can last and be added and keep a game world very fresh.
Edit: And by "the one", I don't mean that should be all the time, nor that there can't be others to do the same solve. I just mean it should be significant and meaningful.
The one thing I really liked about DAoC was the asymmetry of the factions. I wonder if there can ever be a 3 faction, strongly asymmetrical MMORPG with some semblance of balance in PvP between factions. Maybe a Starcraft MMORPG could introduce something like that.
uh ESO?
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Back in the early MMO days, the gigantic worlds... so easy to get immersed. Granted, there was a lot of empty void in those worlds, but they felt real enough.
lol .. gigantic empty space "felt real"? More like "boring". If i want to run in a void, i can just use my running elliptical .. at least i get to watch tv with that.
I thought they were going to evolve into increasingly better virtual worlds.
I thought wrong.
I recall trying to introduce a friend to MMORPGs back in 2002, he rejected them entirely saying why would he want to waste a bunch of time in one, he just wanted to "play a game."
His type of gamer was in the clear majority and thats the way the genre went.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm disappointed that no game has matched Runescape with its freedom to play as you like. Crafter, gatherer, merchant, PvE, PvP, Boss slayer, you can be any or all on one character if you desire.
All that has changed is better graphics and more flashy effects, faster pace and far too many rewards for doing nothing.
Why did every game have to be a world of warcraft clone since 2004?
I would like to see that kind of gameplay and freedom in a MMO set in The Forgotten Realms campaign setting and evolve GW2 "dynamic" events to be even more dynamic ( yes I know It has to be scripted" so the world feels alive and vibrant.
This are a question for those who started the MMOs back in late 90s and early 00s.
What did you think back then how the future of MMOs would evolve and how much right and wrong are you today?
I started in 2003 so the only "old school" MMO I've played was SWG.
My expectations were that MMOs would basically become fantastical world simulations. They'd be massive, single-server, no instances affairs. A star wars MMO might have 5 million players on a single server, non-instanced. Games would still have a focus, an overall drive (like empire vs rebels) but would be much more wide ranging.
So, you could be a moisture farmer on Tattooine, or a crafter, or whatever. If you were combat orientated, you could join in the main theme and side with rebels or empire, but you might equally become a bounty hunter and travel the universe, or a bodyguard who never leaves Jabba's side. We'd have fully player run economies with the ability to actually design and research new items. We'd have fully destructible worlds, so if my guild wanted to build their own city on Naboo, we'd be able to buy land from the queen, then actually go out and construct it. NPCs and AI would keep things eventful, so PvE players would always have interesting things to do too. We'd have player quests as well as dynamic NPC quests. The games would offer something for everyone, creating a true online society where you can live out your IP-related dreams!
Outside of the game, I believed MMOs would grow to influence much more of our lives. MySpace was probably at the peak of it's popularity when I started in MMOs, so I envisaged a gaming social network. A single profile would link up with all our MMO accounts. We'd be able to chat with guildies, create events, share links and media etc. So, I might be at work, logged into the social network, but actually chatting with a guildie who was in game. Events would sync up between website and games, as well as phones/emails. Selling stuff in game would notify my via the website. I'd be able to setup custom alerts, so I might ask an NPC working for the Naboo planetary defence team to notify me when the Empire entered radar range. I'd then receive this alert when out of game, allowing me to login and rush to the defence of Naboo.
I also envisaged more cross-platform support. Not just porting games to other platforms, but having different functionality on different platforms. So, the "best" experience would be on PC. But, what if you're at work? Well, I imagined being able to log in via your browser, and whilst you wouldn't be able to play the main game, you would be able to chat, organise events, micromanage things like your estates, or perhaps design new blueprints for houses. When smartphones became popular in 2007, I was 100% convinced this was going to happen. For some reason it hasn't, or not to my knowledge, the only thing I've personally seen has been iFruit for GTAV. Bioware *hinted* that they were going to do this for SW:TOR so you could micromanage companions outside of game, but they obviously didn't bother.
Now, obviously this hasn't happened and the industry has mostly moved in the opposite direction - small worlds, small groups, less social, less breadth, less depth. However, I have not given up hope! We often forget that the internet in general, and MMOs in particular, are still in their infancy. We're still experimenting with ideas and any trends we notice only last a short period of time. What I have envisaged still isn't technical possible now, certainly wasn't 10 years ago, but in the future? Sure, we'll be able to do it. There is so much we haven't even thought of yet, let alone attempted! As the technology improves, so do our options, so these massive virtual worlds will eventually become a reality.
As to where we are today? Yeh, I'm disappointed, but in actual fact what we have today is very close to what I envisaged for split screen games. Typically 50-100 hours of questing followed by tightly controlled dungeons and raiding, usually in groups no larger than 12, but often only 4 or 5. Instead of being over the internet and being called an MMO, I thought this is what we'd be doing locally, split screen, sat in the living room.
I still think it's really stupid that developers are putting all this effort into creating MMOs, yet 90% of the content is solo and the remaining 10% is mostly small group or PvP. Why waste all that effort with logins, networking, graphics issues etc when you could just create an offline game with split screen? If you aren't going to create an actual MMO, why waste the effort? An offline split screen game would offer a vastly superior experience.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
I was really expecting MMOs to be the pinnacle of gaming. They have far more potential than any other genre. But we've got stuck in this endless loop of making the same general game over and over. In the early 2000s the games that were the best examples of the raw potential of MMOs and what that could someday be were EVE and Wurm.
In 2017, soon to be 2018, the best examples of the raw potential of MMOs and what they could someday be are EVE and Wurm.
We've taken 10 years to find out that consumers don't want repackaged WoW over and over. And really the main game development companies still haven't figured that out. The only reason there is potential for decent MMOs at some point in our future is kickstarters.
I'm okay with what we've got. I always envisioned the ultimate MMO would be like something you saw in certain Sci-fi movies though - a completely virtual world where you can do just about anything you can think of. I realistically doubt I'll ever see that kind of evolution during my lifetime though.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
We've taken 10 years to find out that consumers don't want repackaged WoW over and over. And really the main game development companies still haven't figured that out.
Seems to me that at least 3 main MMORPG development companies actually HAVE figured that out. Since August 2012, AAA developers try something different. And it works. Except for those who actually believed they didn't want WoW/EQ clones, but are actually lost without them.
Obviously the definition of "Repackaged WoW", "WoW Clone" etc. is up for considerable debate.
I'd consider any general game that follows the general model of quest grinding to level cap and then running "endgame" content for "endgame" gear with some other major tropes like factions you select during character creation "zones" that are segregated by level and PvP status etc. All coming together to form "Repackaged WoW". So that would even include titles such as ArcheAge, Elder Scrolls Online, etc that may break the mold in a few key ways but still follow the same general model.
I have noticed Themeparks these days tend to depart from WoW in more ways, and more meaningful ways, but overall they still just feel like repackaged WoW with some fancy new bells and whistles.
The only two AAA titles that come to mind that break this model enough to be considered something different entirely are EVE and Runescape. And of course those are both actually indie titles that launched their company into AAA status with their success.
After playing Asherons Call ( started in 99 ) I thought omg i cant wait to see how bad ass MMOs are going to be in the future. I was in a game that was a real world! it had a sun that rotated around the map, in a real day/night cycle. there were thousands of people running around this huge open world doing their thing. so many other cool things i could go on for ever.
and slowly i watched as MMO came out after MMO and i watched all these cool features get lost in the shuffle. down to the point where sometimes we get games that are just single player games claiming to be " mmo ". when they are pretty much lobby games with a que system for everything.
and slowly i watched as MMO came out after MMO and i watched all these cool features get lost in the shuffle. down to the point where sometimes we get games that are just single player games claiming to be " mmo ". when they are pretty much lobby games with a que system for everything.
and other people are just in your way.
You can always pay solo to get rid of others who are in your way. In fact, lobbies make that convenient.
Outside of the game, I believed MMOs would grow to influence much more of our lives.
lol .. are we talking about entertainment here? I am glad they don't "influence much more of our lives".
For those of us who grew up in the 80s and 90s, TV influenced our lives a ton. Entertainment shapes culture.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
Outside of the game, I believed MMOs would grow to influence much more of our lives.
lol .. are we talking about entertainment here? I am glad they don't "influence much more of our lives".
So, first, I was 17 when I started playing MMOs, so any expectations I had back then were always going to be wildly inaccurate!
Second....yeh, of course! Just think of the massive influence that other forms of entertainment have had. Books, music and television have all dramatically changed the face of this planet and the way we all live our lives, why not games? 17 year old me viewed MMOs as the pinnacle of gaming so I envisaged a future where most people would be playing them.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
I'm okay with what we've got. I always envisioned the ultimate MMO would be like something you saw in certain Sci-fi movies though - a completely virtual world where you can do just about anything you can think of. I realistically doubt I'll ever see that kind of evolution during my lifetime though.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
on the one side you have people complaining about the 'state' of gaming and then laugh at someone who suggests taking a look at indie becuase he feels its the best era in gaming ever.
not a single solitary remote hint of curiosity to look over the fence and then when confronted they claim they adore and like the games they are playing that they just complained about 10 mins prior
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
You can't tell the difference anyway. If you really want social interaction, here (this forum) is 10x better than any MMO or online games. MMOs are no longer places for social interactions.
They are not. Destiny 1 & 2 are not a wow clone, unless you think shooting is a clone of slow tab-targeting action.
Warframe is not a wow clone. Overwatch is not a wow clone. World of Tank is not a wow clone. Star conflict is not a wow clone.
Heck, even Mu Legend is not a wow clone .. it is more like a Diablo clone.
So where is this "every game" comment comes from?
The golden age has come and gone.
I had a good feeling about Repopulation, but look how that turned out.
First person shooters like Destiny 1 & 2 don't really belong in the MMORPG category, nor does Overwatch or world of tanks.
Space Engineers, Medievil Engineers, empyrion galactic survival, 7 Days to Die, Subnautica, Rust, The Forest (although not massive map), Wurm, Life is Feudal(although small map)...lesser 'close to being finished' examples would be Osiris, Kingdoms, Rising World and on the 8 bit(ish) world there is StarMade and many many others that I honestly cant speak to
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Moving parts sort of interactions.
Not just levers and buttons to open secret passages and alcoves, but spinning fireplaces and water filled basins and putting the gemstone eyes back in the statues sorts of interactions.
This stuff should be cool, one of a kind challenges to all, with "the one" as the hero.
There's no limit to what can be done so content of this sort, since it should be difficult to solve, can last and be added and keep a game world very fresh.
Edit: And by "the one", I don't mean that should be all the time, nor that there can't be others to do the same solve. I just mean it should be significant and meaningful.
Once upon a time....
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
I thought wrong.
I recall trying to introduce a friend to MMORPGs back in 2002, he rejected them entirely saying why would he want to waste a bunch of time in one, he just wanted to "play a game."
His type of gamer was in the clear majority and thats the way the genre went.
I never saw it coming.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
My expectations were that MMOs would basically become fantastical world simulations. They'd be massive, single-server, no instances affairs. A star wars MMO might have 5 million players on a single server, non-instanced. Games would still have a focus, an overall drive (like empire vs rebels) but would be much more wide ranging.
So, you could be a moisture farmer on Tattooine, or a crafter, or whatever. If you were combat orientated, you could join in the main theme and side with rebels or empire, but you might equally become a bounty hunter and travel the universe, or a bodyguard who never leaves Jabba's side. We'd have fully player run economies with the ability to actually design and research new items. We'd have fully destructible worlds, so if my guild wanted to build their own city on Naboo, we'd be able to buy land from the queen, then actually go out and construct it. NPCs and AI would keep things eventful, so PvE players would always have interesting things to do too. We'd have player quests as well as dynamic NPC quests. The games would offer something for everyone, creating a true online society where you can live out your IP-related dreams!
Outside of the game, I believed MMOs would grow to influence much more of our lives. MySpace was probably at the peak of it's popularity when I started in MMOs, so I envisaged a gaming social network. A single profile would link up with all our MMO accounts. We'd be able to chat with guildies, create events, share links and media etc. So, I might be at work, logged into the social network, but actually chatting with a guildie who was in game. Events would sync up between website and games, as well as phones/emails. Selling stuff in game would notify my via the website. I'd be able to setup custom alerts, so I might ask an NPC working for the Naboo planetary defence team to notify me when the Empire entered radar range. I'd then receive this alert when out of game, allowing me to login and rush to the defence of Naboo.
I also envisaged more cross-platform support. Not just porting games to other platforms, but having different functionality on different platforms. So, the "best" experience would be on PC. But, what if you're at work? Well, I imagined being able to log in via your browser, and whilst you wouldn't be able to play the main game, you would be able to chat, organise events, micromanage things like your estates, or perhaps design new blueprints for houses. When smartphones became popular in 2007, I was 100% convinced this was going to happen. For some reason it hasn't, or not to my knowledge, the only thing I've personally seen has been iFruit for GTAV. Bioware *hinted* that they were going to do this for SW:TOR so you could micromanage companions outside of game, but they obviously didn't bother.
Now, obviously this hasn't happened and the industry has mostly moved in the opposite direction - small worlds, small groups, less social, less breadth, less depth. However, I have not given up hope! We often forget that the internet in general, and MMOs in particular, are still in their infancy. We're still experimenting with ideas and any trends we notice only last a short period of time. What I have envisaged still isn't technical possible now, certainly wasn't 10 years ago, but in the future? Sure, we'll be able to do it. There is so much we haven't even thought of yet, let alone attempted! As the technology improves, so do our options, so these massive virtual worlds will eventually become a reality.
As to where we are today? Yeh, I'm disappointed, but in actual fact what we have today is very close to what I envisaged for split screen games. Typically 50-100 hours of questing followed by tightly controlled dungeons and raiding, usually in groups no larger than 12, but often only 4 or 5. Instead of being over the internet and being called an MMO, I thought this is what we'd be doing locally, split screen, sat in the living room.
I still think it's really stupid that developers are putting all this effort into creating MMOs, yet 90% of the content is solo and the remaining 10% is mostly small group or PvP. Why waste all that effort with logins, networking, graphics issues etc when you could just create an offline game with split screen? If you aren't going to create an actual MMO, why waste the effort? An offline split screen game would offer a vastly superior experience.
In 2017, soon to be 2018, the best examples of the raw potential of MMOs and what they could someday be are EVE and Wurm.
We've taken 10 years to find out that consumers don't want repackaged WoW over and over. And really the main game development companies still haven't figured that out. The only reason there is potential for decent MMOs at some point in our future is kickstarters.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
I'd consider any general game that follows the general model of quest grinding to level cap and then running "endgame" content for "endgame" gear with some other major tropes like factions you select during character creation "zones" that are segregated by level and PvP status etc. All coming together to form "Repackaged WoW". So that would even include titles such as ArcheAge, Elder Scrolls Online, etc that may break the mold in a few key ways but still follow the same general model.
I have noticed Themeparks these days tend to depart from WoW in more ways, and more meaningful ways, but overall they still just feel like repackaged WoW with some fancy new bells and whistles.
The only two AAA titles that come to mind that break this model enough to be considered something different entirely are EVE and Runescape. And of course those are both actually indie titles that launched their company into AAA status with their success.
I'm curious which three you think are not though.
And yeah .. the genre is exactly where i like it to be today. More fun, less grind, no dependency on others for fun.
and slowly i watched as MMO came out after MMO and i watched all these cool features get lost in the shuffle. down to the point where sometimes we get games that are just single player games claiming to be " mmo ". when they are pretty much lobby games with a que system for everything.
and other people are just in your way.
Second....yeh, of course! Just think of the massive influence that other forms of entertainment have had. Books, music and television have all dramatically changed the face of this planet and the way we all live our lives, why not games? 17 year old me viewed MMOs as the pinnacle of gaming so I envisaged a future where most people would be playing them.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon