Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Interesting read , but that guys problems were largely self inflicted wounds.
Yeah that guy was tilted.
"I argued at length but she seemed to have a mental block that prevented her from seeing that according to her own words just a minute prior, I was not breaking any rule. Fed up, I insulted her and then she swore that she would have me banned from Discord."
I had my share of moments where I felt treated unfair by the mods on this site too but how stupid can you be to decide to end the conflict by insulting the mod?
Hehe.. just wanted to share what I found on the net ;-)
And btw. @Caspian: If you read that post. Do me a favour and offer us refunds, before your ship sinks! Do it for your reputation. The reputation of SBS and all your employees.
I know you need every penny for the development of CoE, but you betrayed me with your presentation! I should have gotten a game, based on SpatialOS - nope (it was one of your main marketing arguments - mentioned a couple of times as the fabric of the game - main reason why I gave you my money). You consideraly changed the release date! I still haven't seen anything of any of your promised game mechanics! Just worthless "blabla" (sorry sounds maybe rude - but I feel like hearing our politicians promising things every day without any proof) in your dev journals, your artwork and spending time on senseless development of a justing video (just why - do you had to much free time?). To be honest - if you need more money - show us something! Show new people, which don't know anything about CoE, something about your vision. The game you are developing.
Some months ago I believed in you and SBS. I gave you my money. Investigated a lot of time in the community (not directly on the forums - but directly with other members believing in you too) But today, I'm just disappointed about the way everythingthing is going. I don't know you personally, but what I heard isn't really apeiciable.
All I want you to do, is to be honest with your bakers and the community. If you cannot accomplish what you promised, just announce it! I'm sure, the "brainwashed" mayority of them will support you.
I won't. You changed alot of things the last few month's (after I gave you my money - SpatialOS, release Date). So give us (the people who claim it) their money back. I think it just would be be fair.
i have to confess, i've had a number of my own threads either removed or locked on the CoE forums - and though some i thought were done unjustly, in the end it is SBS's forum and i have no issue with them running it as they see fit
Hehe.. just wanted to share what I found on the net ;-)
And btw. @Caspian: If you read that post. Do me a favour and offer us refunds, before your ship sinks! Do it for your reputation. The reputation of SBS and all your employees.
I know you need every penny for the development of CoE, but you betrayed me with your presentation! I should have gotten a game, based on SpatialOS - nope (it was one of your main marketing arguments - mentioned a couple of times as the fabric of the game - main reason why I gave you my money). You consideraly changed the release date! I still haven't seen anything of any of your promised game mechanics! Just worthless "blabla" (sorry sounds maybe rude - but I feel like hearing our politicians promising things every day without any proof) in your dev journals, your artwork and spending time on senseless development of a justing video (just why - do you had to much free time?). To be honest - if you need more money - show us something! Show new people, which don't know anything about CoE, something about your vision. The game you are developing.
Some months ago I believed in you and SBS. I gave you my money. Investigated a lot of time in the community (not directly on the forums - but directly with other members believing in you too) But today, I'm just disappointed about the way everythingthing is going. I don't know you personally, but what I heard isn't really apeiciable.
All I want you to do, is to be honest with your bakers and the community. If you cannot accomplish what you promised, just announce it! I'm sure, the "brainwashed" mayority of them will support you.
I won't. You changed alot of things the last few month's (after I gave you my money - SpatialOS, release Date). So give us (the people who claim it) their money back. I think it just would be be fair.
Thanks
I agree with a lot of what you say, but I just do not know if offering refunds is viable. They just laid staff off. One of the reasons (I think THE reason) they switched from SpatialOS was due to cost. I don't think they have money in the bank to offer refunds. Doing so would likely (IMHO) put 15-20 people out of a job and only get a small fraction of money to the backers. So I guess you could say I am ethically torn on the subject.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Hehe.. just wanted to share what I found on the net ;-)
And btw. @Caspian: If you read that post. Do me a favour and offer us refunds, before your ship sinks! Do it for your reputation. The reputation of SBS and all your employees.
I know you need every penny for the development of CoE, but you betrayed me with your presentation! I should have gotten a game, based on SpatialOS - nope (it was one of your main marketing arguments - mentioned a couple of times as the fabric of the game - main reason why I gave you my money). You consideraly changed the release date! I still haven't seen anything of any of your promised game mechanics! Just worthless "blabla" (sorry sounds maybe rude - but I feel like hearing our politicians promising things every day without any proof) in your dev journals, your artwork and spending time on senseless development of a justing video (just why - do you had to much free time?). To be honest - if you need more money - show us something! Show new people, which don't know anything about CoE, something about your vision. The game you are developing.
Some months ago I believed in you and SBS. I gave you my money. Investigated a lot of time in the community (not directly on the forums - but directly with other members believing in you too) But today, I'm just disappointed about the way everythingthing is going. I don't know you personally, but what I heard isn't really apeiciable.
All I want you to do, is to be honest with your bakers and the community. If you cannot accomplish what you promised, just announce it! I'm sure, the "brainwashed" mayority of them will support you.
I won't. You changed alot of things the last few month's (after I gave you my money - SpatialOS, release Date). So give us (the people who claim it) their money back. I think it just would be be fair.
Thanks
I agree with a lot of what you say, but I just do not know if offering refunds is viable. They just laid staff off. One of the reasons (I think THE reason) they switched from SpatialOS was due to cost. I don't think they have money in the bank to offer refunds. Doing so would likely (IMHO) put 15-20 people out of a job and only get a small fraction of money to the backers. So I guess you could say I am ethically torn on the subject.
While I think offering refunds is a noble thing, ever since I first heard of crowdfunding I understood it was a high risk venture and that I should not "donate" what I wasn't willing to write off as a loss.
So I feel little sympathy for those who change their minds later and wish a refund, regardless of the circumstances or even if big delays or changes occur.
Even after long delay, and quite truthfully doubtful that I'll ever play the game, I don't consider asking MJ for refund, I knew what I was getting into, he still deserves a chance to make the game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This whole things reads like horse shit. Dude who made this sounds like a fuckin moron. The only people I know that get banned from the forums or discord are the ones that are told to stop and don't. Plain and simple.
And anyone who thinks Serpentius is a bad moderator should of seen the forums/discord before serpentius. 1000x better.
I never feel sorry for consumers who expect special treatment. You bought something that said no refund. If you weren't 100% sure about spending the money you shouldn't of done it. Maybe it's from working in sales for years, but I just don't have sympathy for this sort of thing.
If you REALLY want your money back, like I said in other threads, sell it on a third party site.
I never feel sorry for consumers who expect special treatment. You bought something that said no refund. If you weren't 100% sure about spending the money you shouldn't of done it. Maybe it's from working in sales for years, but I just don't have sympathy for this sort of thing.
If you REALLY want your money back, like I said in other threads, sell it on a third party site.
I don’t want to turn this into a refund thread. But my perspective is that the agreement has 2 sides. The customer pays money and agrees to no refund. The company agrees to deliver a specific product by a particular time. If the product changes significantly or the timeline (if it’s sold as 18 months and turns out to be 42 months for instance) then IMHO the company hasn’t lived up to their end of the agreement. One side can not unilaterally change an agreement. That’s not expecting special treatment. That’s just basic fairness to me.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I never feel sorry for consumers who expect special treatment. You bought something that said no refund. If you weren't 100% sure about spending the money you shouldn't of done it. Maybe it's from working in sales for years, but I just don't have sympathy for this sort of thing.
If you REALLY want your money back, like I said in other threads, sell it on a third party site.
I don’t want to turn this into a refund thread. But my perspective is that the agreement has 2 sides. The customer pays money and agrees to no refund. The company agrees to deliver a specific product by a particular time. If the product changes significantly or the timeline (if it’s sold as 18 months and turns out to be 42 months for instance) then IMHO the company hasn’t lived up to their end of the agreement. One side can not unilaterally change an agreement. That’s not expecting special treatment. That’s just basic fairness to me.
But by the nature of kickstarter you are essentially agreeing to donate the money. You are paying money for someone to make a product, not buying a product.
IMO looking at kickstarter as preordering the game is totally missing the whole concept of what kickstarter is. It was never a place that advertised itself as a place to buy shit. Or even a place used to fully fund anything. It is used to "kickstart" someone's company and/or product.
I would understand people screaming unethical if they pocketed the money, canceled the project 6 months later. Or if they sat there and said "we guarantee you this product no later than". They gave you an estimated delivery date. Even in the FAQ they something to the effect of "right now we are aiming for December 2017". That's not exactly guaranteeing your product. They missed it. They're still using the money to make the game. If you didn't know what you were getting into, when you pledged that money, then that's on YOU for not doing thorough research on what kickstarter is.
I never feel sorry for consumers who expect special treatment. You bought something that said no refund. If you weren't 100% sure about spending the money you shouldn't of done it. Maybe it's from working in sales for years, but I just don't have sympathy for this sort of thing.
If you REALLY want your money back, like I said in other threads, sell it on a third party site.
I don’t want to turn this into a refund thread. But my perspective is that the agreement has 2 sides. The customer pays money and agrees to no refund. The company agrees to deliver a specific product by a particular time. If the product changes significantly or the timeline (if it’s sold as 18 months and turns out to be 42 months for instance) then IMHO the company hasn’t lived up to their end of the agreement. One side can not unilaterally change an agreement. That’s not expecting special treatment. That’s just basic fairness to me.
I don't think the company is agreeing to anything other than to attempt to deliver the product. The inherent risk in crowdfunding games is that backers are sponsoring development of software and digital goods and that is subject to delays depending on a large variety of factors. While I think the companies should honor the deadlines they set on general principle, I don't think it is a part of any deal made.
However, what happened with CoE and SBS's knowingly ambitious timeline was fairly low of them, though not outside the implied agreement with their backers. I also very much did not appreciate how they handled revealing that the deadline had no chance to be made. It was poorly handled all around by SBS and a significant part of the reason I left the community.
I never feel sorry for consumers who expect special treatment. You bought something that said no refund. If you weren't 100% sure about spending the money you shouldn't of done it. Maybe it's from working in sales for years, but I just don't have sympathy for this sort of thing.
If you REALLY want your money back, like I said in other threads, sell it on a third party site.
I don’t want to turn this into a refund thread. But my perspective is that the agreement has 2 sides. The customer pays money and agrees to no refund. The company agrees to deliver a specific product by a particular time. If the product changes significantly or the timeline (if it’s sold as 18 months and turns out to be 42 months for instance) then IMHO the company hasn’t lived up to their end of the agreement. One side can not unilaterally change an agreement. That’s not expecting special treatment. That’s just basic fairness to me.
But by the nature of kickstarter you are essentially agreeing to donate the money. You are paying money for someone to make a product, not buying a product.
IMO looking at kickstarter as preordering the game is totally missing the whole concept of what kickstarter is. It was never a place that advertised itself as a place to buy shit. Or even a place used to fully fund anything. It is used to "kickstart" someone's company and/or product.
I would understand people screaming unethical if they pocketed the money, canceled the project 6 months later. Or if they sat there and said "we guarantee you this product no later than". They gave you an estimated delivery date. Even in the FAQ they something to the effect of "right now we are aiming for December 2017". That's not exactly guaranteeing your product. They missed it. They're still using the money to make the game. If you didn't know what you were getting into, when you pledged that money, then that's on YOU for not doing thorough research on what kickstarter is.
Spot on and something a lot of crowdfunding haters seem to forget, you are not buying a product. Couldn't agree more and with this mindset I haven't made ONE donation where I have felt robbed and I've made dozens. Well okay, The Repopulation comes close.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
frostymug said: Believe this or not, you can keep your highly overestimated opinion of your uneducated self, the world won't end. Try sometimes. (I held off the sarcasm here since we know you don't get it. Looking out for ya, little buddy!)
The world would be such a wonderful place, if people followed the advice they dolt out.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
SBS says, "we will make an innovative game. it is possible with spatialOS"
Peoples says, "ok heres my money"
SBS says, "no backs. used all your money for a demo but investors didn't buy it so we are broke. also, we dont have spatialOS anymore so we're making a game with a homemade toaster"
Peoples says, "can I have my money back then"
SBS says, "no - you knew what u were getting into"
I never feel sorry for consumers who expect special treatment. You bought something that said no refund. If you weren't 100% sure about spending the money you shouldn't of done it. Maybe it's from working in sales for years, but I just don't have sympathy for this sort of thing.
If you REALLY want your money back, like I said in other threads, sell it on a third party site.
I don’t want to turn this into a refund thread. But my perspective is that the agreement has 2 sides. The customer pays money and agrees to no refund. The company agrees to deliver a specific product by a particular time. If the product changes significantly or the timeline (if it’s sold as 18 months and turns out to be 42 months for instance) then IMHO the company hasn’t lived up to their end of the agreement. One side can not unilaterally change an agreement. That’s not expecting special treatment. That’s just basic fairness to me.
But by the nature of kickstarter you are essentially agreeing to donate the money. You are paying money for someone to make a product, not buying a product.
IMO looking at kickstarter as preordering the game is totally missing the whole concept of what kickstarter is. It was never a place that advertised itself as a place to buy shit. Or even a place used to fully fund anything. It is used to "kickstart" someone's company and/or product.
I would understand people screaming unethical if they pocketed the money, canceled the project 6 months later. Or if they sat there and said "we guarantee you this product no later than". They gave you an estimated delivery date. Even in the FAQ they something to the effect of "right now we are aiming for December 2017". That's not exactly guaranteeing your product. They missed it. They're still using the money to make the game. If you didn't know what you were getting into, when you pledged that money, then that's on YOU for not doing thorough research on what kickstarter is.
All decent points but using kickstarter doesn't absolve someone of fucking up. If they fail to complete their project and deliver the goods promised then they have failed to live up to the agreement on kickstarter and must satisfy backers in some way or face a lawsuit.
Also once you switch to selling things on your website I think it becomes a lot harder to convince people they are pledging money and not entering into another agreement with you.
I never feel sorry for consumers who expect special treatment. You bought something that said no refund. If you weren't 100% sure about spending the money you shouldn't of done it. Maybe it's from working in sales for years, but I just don't have sympathy for this sort of thing.
If you REALLY want your money back, like I said in other threads, sell it on a third party site.
I don’t want to turn this into a refund thread. But my perspective is that the agreement has 2 sides. The customer pays money and agrees to no refund. The company agrees to deliver a specific product by a particular time. If the product changes significantly or the timeline (if it’s sold as 18 months and turns out to be 42 months for instance) then IMHO the company hasn’t lived up to their end of the agreement. One side can not unilaterally change an agreement. That’s not expecting special treatment. That’s just basic fairness to me.
But by the nature of kickstarter you are essentially agreeing to donate the money. You are paying money for someone to make a product, not buying a product.
If we look at it as paying for making the product, then the person did not make the product and should pay the money back because he did not keep up his side of the deal.
There must be large tolerance to problems that happen while making the product, but if it turns out that the time estimation is completely wrong and they must program a completely new game engine because the one in their plan can't be used, at some point you must be able to call out that the product isn't being made as agreed and ask for you money back. Kickstarter company's responsibility to you doesn't end with the end of Kickstarter campaign, it begins from that point.
I never feel sorry for consumers who expect special treatment. You bought something that said no refund. If you weren't 100% sure about spending the money you shouldn't of done it. Maybe it's from working in sales for years, but I just don't have sympathy for this sort of thing.
If you REALLY want your money back, like I said in other threads, sell it on a third party site.
I don’t want to turn this into a refund thread. But my perspective is that the agreement has 2 sides. The customer pays money and agrees to no refund. The company agrees to deliver a specific product by a particular time. If the product changes significantly or the timeline (if it’s sold as 18 months and turns out to be 42 months for instance) then IMHO the company hasn’t lived up to their end of the agreement. One side can not unilaterally change an agreement. That’s not expecting special treatment. That’s just basic fairness to me.
But by the nature of kickstarter you are essentially agreeing to donate the money. You are paying money for someone to make a product, not buying a product.
If we look at it as paying for making the product, then the person did not make the product and should pay the money back because he did not keep up his side of the deal.
There must be large tolerance to problems that happen while making the product, but if it turns out that the time estimation is completely wrong and they must program a completely new game engine because the one in their plan can't be used, at some point you must be able to call out that the product isn't being made as agreed and ask for you money back. Kickstarter company's responsibility to you doesn't end with the end of Kickstarter campaign, it begins from that point.
This is what I was saying.
It's not just Kickstarter. They were directly SELLING packages for all this time. They have a freaking STORE page... This is a business.
I'm not forcing anyone to follow my thoughts. If you consider your purchases donations that's absolutely within your rights. In this case I am not even advocating people TRY to get a refund (explained why previously). But these agreements are two sided and in my opinion it's simply unfair to hold one side to it when the other has not lived up to their end.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I never feel sorry for consumers who expect special treatment. You bought something that said no refund. If you weren't 100% sure about spending the money you shouldn't of done it. Maybe it's from working in sales for years, but I just don't have sympathy for this sort of thing.
If you REALLY want your money back, like I said in other threads, sell it on a third party site.
I don’t want to turn this into a refund thread. But my perspective is that the agreement has 2 sides. The customer pays money and agrees to no refund. The company agrees to deliver a specific product by a particular time. If the product changes significantly or the timeline (if it’s sold as 18 months and turns out to be 42 months for instance) then IMHO the company hasn’t lived up to their end of the agreement. One side can not unilaterally change an agreement. That’s not expecting special treatment. That’s just basic fairness to me.
But by the nature of kickstarter you are essentially agreeing to donate the money. You are paying money for someone to make a product, not buying a product.
If we look at it as paying for making the product, then the person did not make the product and should pay the money back because he did not keep up his side of the deal.
There must be large tolerance to problems that happen while making the product, but if it turns out that the time estimation is completely wrong and they must program a completely new game engine because the one in their plan can't be used, at some point you must be able to call out that the product isn't being made as agreed and ask for you money back. Kickstarter company's responsibility to you doesn't end with the end of Kickstarter campaign, it begins from that point.
This is what I was saying.
It's not just Kickstarter. They were directly SELLING packages for all this time. They have a freaking STORE page... This is a business.
I'm not forcing anyone to follow my thoughts. If you consider your purchases donations that's absolutely within your rights. In this case I am not even advocating people TRY to get a refund (explained why previously). But these agreements are two sided and in my opinion it's simply unfair to hold one side to it when the other has not lived up to their end.
As I often told my children, "life isn't fair, and it never will be."
It's a lesson they fully grasp as adults and allows them to have no unrealistic expectations, such as getting refunds from a retail store which clearly posts there are no refunds. (We generally won't shop in such stores.)
You know, Soulbound doesn't consider store purchases to be donations either, they are "deposits" on future services, and its stated in the excerpt below four times these are non-refundable. (as well as two or three more times elsewhere in the TOS.)
It states they may freely change the date, and the last paragraph covers changing the content at will.
One oversight is no mention about the construction of the game, so the question about breaking their "promise " to use SpatialOS might actually be courtroom worthy as it's not covered in the agreement either way.
COE TOS... be careful what you agree to.
"Any funds raised through such third party service, as well as any funds raised through pre-release sales Services or any in-game incentives or perks as part of the Services, shall not constitute an investment and is a deposit to be used for the production of and the delivery of the Services, including the development and production costs for the Services, including operational costs of related to the Services or any third-party service costs deemed necessary or advisable to offer the Services, and including Soulbound Studios’ corporate expenses incurred in order to develop, produce, and deliver the Services.
Any funds so raised shall be earned by Soulbound Studios and are non-refundable. Such funds shall be applied to the direct provision of any Purchase made and/or to the cost of provision of the Services. Soulbound Studios shall use best efforts to deliver Services purchased pre-release on or before the estimated release date for the Services. However, you acknowledge and agree such delivery date is not a firm promise and may be extended by Soulbound Studios. Any portion of funds raised for the provision of the Services shall be non-refundable, unless such funds shall be deemed refundable under terms of services of the third party service through which those funds for the provision of Services were procured and in effect at the time of provision of those funds. In consideration of Soulbound Studios’ use of best efforts to develop, produce, and deliver the Services utilizing, in part or in whole, the funds raised for the provision of Services, you agree any amounts raised shall be non-refundable regardless of whether or not Soulbound Studios actually delivers the Services. In consideration for the promises by Soulbound Studios, you agree you shall irrevocable waive any claim for refund of any such funds.
You acknowledge and agree the Services provided may differ in certain aspects from descriptions, screen shots, or game footage shown or described at the time of deposit of such funds."
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I never feel sorry for consumers who expect special treatment. You bought something that said no refund. If you weren't 100% sure about spending the money you shouldn't of done it. Maybe it's from working in sales for years, but I just don't have sympathy for this sort of thing.
If you REALLY want your money back, like I said in other threads, sell it on a third party site.
I don’t want to turn this into a refund thread. But my perspective is that the agreement has 2 sides. The customer pays money and agrees to no refund. The company agrees to deliver a specific product by a particular time. If the product changes significantly or the timeline (if it’s sold as 18 months and turns out to be 42 months for instance) then IMHO the company hasn’t lived up to their end of the agreement. One side can not unilaterally change an agreement. That’s not expecting special treatment. That’s just basic fairness to me.
But by the nature of kickstarter you are essentially agreeing to donate the money. You are paying money for someone to make a product, not buying a product.
If we look at it as paying for making the product, then the person did not make the product and should pay the money back because he did not keep up his side of the deal.
There must be large tolerance to problems that happen while making the product, but if it turns out that the time estimation is completely wrong and they must program a completely new game engine because the one in their plan can't be used, at some point you must be able to call out that the product isn't being made as agreed and ask for you money back. Kickstarter company's responsibility to you doesn't end with the end of Kickstarter campaign, it begins from that point.
This is what I was saying.
It's not just Kickstarter. They were directly SELLING packages for all this time. They have a freaking STORE page... This is a business.
I'm not forcing anyone to follow my thoughts. If you consider your purchases donations that's absolutely within your rights. In this case I am not even advocating people TRY to get a refund (explained why previously). But these agreements are two sided and in my opinion it's simply unfair to hold one side to it when the other has not lived up to their end.
As I often told my children, "life isn't fair, and it never will be."
It's a lesson they fully grasp as adults and allows them to have no unrealistic expectations, such as getting refunds from a retail store which clearly posts there are no refunds. (We generally won't shop in such stores.)
You know, Soulbound doesn't consider store purchases to be donations either, they are "deposits" on future services, and its stated in the excerpt below four times these are non-refundable. (as well as two or three more times elsewhere in the TOS.)
It states they may freely change the date, and the last paragraph covers changing the content at will.
One oversight is no mention about the construction of the game, so the question about breaking their "promise " to use SpatialOS might actually be courtroom worthy as it's not covered in the agreement either way.
"Any funds raised through such third party service, as well as any funds raised through pre-release sales Services or any in-game incentives or perks as part of the Services, shall not constitute an investment and is a deposit to be used for the production of and the delivery of the Services, including the development and production costs for the Services, including operational costs of related to the Services or any third-party service costs deemed necessary or advisable to offer the Services, and including Soulbound Studios’ corporate expenses incurred in order to develop, produce, and deliver the Services.
Any funds so raised shall be earned by Soulbound Studios and are non-refundable. Such funds shall be applied to the direct provision of any Purchase made and/or to the cost of provision of the Services. Soulbound Studios shall use best efforts to deliver Services purchased pre-release on or before the estimated release date for the Services. However, you acknowledge and agree such delivery date is not a firm promise and may be extended by Soulbound Studios. Any portion of funds raised for the provision of the Services shall be non-refundable, unless such funds shall be deemed refundable under terms of services of the third party service through which those funds for the provision of Services were procured and in effect at the time of provision of those funds. In consideration of Soulbound Studios’ use of best efforts to develop, produce, and deliver the Services utilizing, in part or in whole, the funds raised for the provision of Services, you agree any amounts raised shall be non-refundable regardless of whether or not Soulbound Studios actually delivers the Services. In consideration for the promises by Soulbound Studios, you agree you shall irrevocable waive any claim for refund of any such funds.
You acknowledge and agree the Services provided may differ in certain aspects from descriptions, screen shots, or game footage shown or described at the time of deposit of such funds."
Kyleran... I'm not talking about a TOS that is likely not even binding because of the way it is presented (see prior browsewrap/clickwrap discussion from the American Bar Association). And also was proven (I think by Wellspring) to have been modified well after the date the store opened.
I'm talking about my belief that the foundation of every sale is an agreement between 2 parties where one party exchanges money for purchase of goods or services at an expected time from the other party.
As for your retail store example do you know that by accepting credit cards they actually are also subject to the rules of those cards? Some of those cards also have clauses for something called Return Protection which provide for returns even to a store that posts a "NO REFUND/NO RETURN/FINAL SALE" policy.
As you say, life isn't fair. Again, that works 2 ways.
I can tell you from personal experience with Mortal Online that I did in fact quickly receive my money back after complaining to my card company (I think it was Chase at that time) that I was pre-sold a game at X time and that it was now way beyond that time. And that I had attempted to receive a refund but was pointed to a "NO REFUND" policy in their TOS.
Again, I do not advocate doing that for CoE as I think it would be a stake through the heart and cause a lot of collateral damage. But transactions are a 2 way street.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I never feel sorry for consumers who expect special treatment. You bought something that said no refund. If you weren't 100% sure about spending the money you shouldn't of done it. Maybe it's from working in sales for years, but I just don't have sympathy for this sort of thing.
If you REALLY want your money back, like I said in other threads, sell it on a third party site.
I don’t want to turn this into a refund thread. But my perspective is that the agreement has 2 sides. The customer pays money and agrees to no refund. The company agrees to deliver a specific product by a particular time. If the product changes significantly or the timeline (if it’s sold as 18 months and turns out to be 42 months for instance) then IMHO the company hasn’t lived up to their end of the agreement. One side can not unilaterally change an agreement. That’s not expecting special treatment. That’s just basic fairness to me.
But by the nature of kickstarter you are essentially agreeing to donate the money. You are paying money for someone to make a product, not buying a product.
If we look at it as paying for making the product, then the person did not make the product and should pay the money back because he did not keep up his side of the deal.
There must be large tolerance to problems that happen while making the product, but if it turns out that the time estimation is completely wrong and they must program a completely new game engine because the one in their plan can't be used, at some point you must be able to call out that the product isn't being made as agreed and ask for you money back. Kickstarter company's responsibility to you doesn't end with the end of Kickstarter campaign, it begins from that point.
This is what I was saying.
It's not just Kickstarter. They were directly SELLING packages for all this time. They have a freaking STORE page... This is a business.
I'm not forcing anyone to follow my thoughts. If you consider your purchases donations that's absolutely within your rights. In this case I am not even advocating people TRY to get a refund (explained why previously). But these agreements are two sided and in my opinion it's simply unfair to hold one side to it when the other has not lived up to their end.
As I often told my children, "life isn't fair, and it never will be."
It's a lesson they fully grasp as adults and allows them to have no unrealistic expectations, such as getting refunds from a retail store which clearly posts there are no refunds. (We generally won't shop in such stores.)
You know, Soulbound doesn't consider store purchases to be donations either, they are "deposits" on future services, and its stated in the excerpt below four times these are non-refundable. (as well as two or three more times elsewhere in the TOS.)
It states they may freely change the date, and the last paragraph covers changing the content at will.
One oversight is no mention about the construction of the game, so the question about breaking their "promise " to use SpatialOS might actually be courtroom worthy as it's not covered in the agreement either way.
COE TOS... be careful what you agree to.
"Any funds raised through such third party service, as well as any funds raised through pre-release sales Services or any in-game incentives or perks as part of the Services, shall not constitute an investment and is a deposit to be used for the production of and the delivery of the Services, including the development and production costs for the Services, including operational costs of related to the Services or any third-party service costs deemed necessary or advisable to offer the Services, and including Soulbound Studios’ corporate expenses incurred in order to develop, produce, and deliver the Services.
Any funds so raised shall be earned by Soulbound Studios and are non-refundable. Such funds shall be applied to the direct provision of any Purchase made and/or to the cost of provision of the Services. Soulbound Studios shall use best efforts to deliver Services purchased pre-release on or before the estimated release date for the Services. However, you acknowledge and agree such delivery date is not a firm promise and may be extended by Soulbound Studios. Any portion of funds raised for the provision of the Services shall be non-refundable, unless such funds shall be deemed refundable under terms of services of the third party service through which those funds for the provision of Services were procured and in effect at the time of provision of those funds. In consideration of Soulbound Studios’ use of best efforts to develop, produce, and deliver the Services utilizing, in part or in whole, the funds raised for the provision of Services, you agree any amounts raised shall be non-refundable regardless of whether or not Soulbound Studios actually delivers the Services. In consideration for the promises by Soulbound Studios, you agree you shall irrevocable waive any claim for refund of any such funds.
You acknowledge and agree the Services provided may differ in certain aspects from descriptions, screen shots, or game footage shown or described at the time of deposit of such funds."
Businesses can call it what they want but often the government sees it in a different way which is why they have consumer protection laws for people who believe they have a reason to not agree with the terms of services. People would be surprised how much in life is negotiable even though a lot of businesses don't want people to know this because, well it's bad for business. Just don't be like the people who walk into your average car dealership and actually pay the posted sticker price.
Also, people dispute contracts all the time. Some win some don't. Everyone has the opportunity to at least try if they feel they have a good case. Lastly, the strength of a ToS varies from country to country.
Bureau of Consumer Protection
The FTC’s Bureau of Consumer Protection stops unfair, deceptive and fraudulent business practices by collecting complaints and conducting investigations, suing companies and people that break the law, developing rules to maintain a fair marketplace, and educating consumers and businesses about their rights and responsibilities.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I never feel sorry for consumers who expect special treatment. You bought something that said no refund. If you weren't 100% sure about spending the money you shouldn't of done it. Maybe it's from working in sales for years, but I just don't have sympathy for this sort of thing.
If you REALLY want your money back, like I said in other threads, sell it on a third party site.
I don’t want to turn this into a refund thread. But my perspective is that the agreement has 2 sides. The customer pays money and agrees to no refund. The company agrees to deliver a specific product by a particular time. If the product changes significantly or the timeline (if it’s sold as 18 months and turns out to be 42 months for instance) then IMHO the company hasn’t lived up to their end of the agreement. One side can not unilaterally change an agreement. That’s not expecting special treatment. That’s just basic fairness to me.
But by the nature of kickstarter you are essentially agreeing to donate the money. You are paying money for someone to make a product, not buying a product.
IMO looking at kickstarter as preordering the game is totally missing the whole concept of what kickstarter is. It was never a place that advertised itself as a place to buy shit. Or even a place used to fully fund anything. It is used to "kickstart" someone's company and/or product.
I would understand people screaming unethical if they pocketed the money, canceled the project 6 months later. Or if they sat there and said "we guarantee you this product no later than". They gave you an estimated delivery date. Even in the FAQ they something to the effect of "right now we are aiming for December 2017". That's not exactly guaranteeing your product. They missed it. They're still using the money to make the game. If you didn't know what you were getting into, when you pledged that money, then that's on YOU for not doing thorough research on what kickstarter is.
All decent points but using kickstarter doesn't absolve someone of fucking up. If they fail to complete their project and deliver the goods promised then they have failed to live up to the agreement on kickstarter and must satisfy backers in some way or face a lawsuit.
Also once you switch to selling things on your website I think it becomes a lot harder to convince people they are pledging money and not entering into another agreement with you.
Lets be real here. From a legal standpoint, people have 0 case against SBS. The only successful lawsuits I've ever read on kickstarter projects are on people who literally took the money and used it for their own personal needs, and/or didn't even attempt to make the product.
And by their own terms and service, CoE's and kickstarter, all they owe you is an attempt to make the product and to update you on the product's situation. Unless you can prove that they're misusing funds for their own personal benefit, and they made the kickstarter with the purpose of deception, you aren't going to earn a dollar of your money back. And being wrong about your ESTIMATED release date is not a strong enough reason, nor should it be. Neither is deciding not to use Spatial, especially since I'm sure there is a mountain of evidence that they tried their best to use spatial and decided to go a different direction.
I never feel sorry for consumers who expect special treatment. You bought something that said no refund. If you weren't 100% sure about spending the money you shouldn't of done it. Maybe it's from working in sales for years, but I just don't have sympathy for this sort of thing.
If you REALLY want your money back, like I said in other threads, sell it on a third party site.
I don’t want to turn this into a refund thread. But my perspective is that the agreement has 2 sides. The customer pays money and agrees to no refund. The company agrees to deliver a specific product by a particular time. If the product changes significantly or the timeline (if it’s sold as 18 months and turns out to be 42 months for instance) then IMHO the company hasn’t lived up to their end of the agreement. One side can not unilaterally change an agreement. That’s not expecting special treatment. That’s just basic fairness to me.
But by the nature of kickstarter you are essentially agreeing to donate the money. You are paying money for someone to make a product, not buying a product.
IMO looking at kickstarter as preordering the game is totally missing the whole concept of what kickstarter is. It was never a place that advertised itself as a place to buy shit. Or even a place used to fully fund anything. It is used to "kickstart" someone's company and/or product.
I would understand people screaming unethical if they pocketed the money, canceled the project 6 months later. Or if they sat there and said "we guarantee you this product no later than". They gave you an estimated delivery date. Even in the FAQ they something to the effect of "right now we are aiming for December 2017". That's not exactly guaranteeing your product. They missed it. They're still using the money to make the game. If you didn't know what you were getting into, when you pledged that money, then that's on YOU for not doing thorough research on what kickstarter is.
All decent points but using kickstarter doesn't absolve someone of fucking up. If they fail to complete their project and deliver the goods promised then they have failed to live up to the agreement on kickstarter and must satisfy backers in some way or face a lawsuit.
Also once you switch to selling things on your website I think it becomes a lot harder to convince people they are pledging money and not entering into another agreement with you.
Lets be real here. From a legal standpoint, people have 0 case against SBS. The only successful lawsuits I've ever read on kickstarter projects are on people who literally took the money and used it for their own personal needs, and/or didn't even attempt to make the product.
And by their own terms and service, CoE's and kickstarter, all they owe you is an attempt to make the product. Unless you can prove that they're misusing funds for their own personal benefit, and they made the kickstarter with the purpose of deception, you aren't going to earn a dollar of your money back. And being wrong about your ESTIMATED release date is not a strong enough reason, nor should it be. Neither is deciding not to use Spatial, especially since I'm sure there is a mountain of evidence that they tried their best to use spatial and decided to go a different direction.
I think you are very wrong on all those points but in the name of our post-kumbiya relationship let’s move on to another topic.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I never feel sorry for consumers who expect special treatment. You bought something that said no refund. If you weren't 100% sure about spending the money you shouldn't of done it. Maybe it's from working in sales for years, but I just don't have sympathy for this sort of thing.
If you REALLY want your money back, like I said in other threads, sell it on a third party site.
I don’t want to turn this into a refund thread. But my perspective is that the agreement has 2 sides. The customer pays money and agrees to no refund. The company agrees to deliver a specific product by a particular time. If the product changes significantly or the timeline (if it’s sold as 18 months and turns out to be 42 months for instance) then IMHO the company hasn’t lived up to their end of the agreement. One side can not unilaterally change an agreement. That’s not expecting special treatment. That’s just basic fairness to me.
But by the nature of kickstarter you are essentially agreeing to donate the money. You are paying money for someone to make a product, not buying a product.
IMO looking at kickstarter as preordering the game is totally missing the whole concept of what kickstarter is. It was never a place that advertised itself as a place to buy shit. Or even a place used to fully fund anything. It is used to "kickstart" someone's company and/or product.
I would understand people screaming unethical if they pocketed the money, canceled the project 6 months later. Or if they sat there and said "we guarantee you this product no later than". They gave you an estimated delivery date. Even in the FAQ they something to the effect of "right now we are aiming for December 2017". That's not exactly guaranteeing your product. They missed it. They're still using the money to make the game. If you didn't know what you were getting into, when you pledged that money, then that's on YOU for not doing thorough research on what kickstarter is.
All decent points but using kickstarter doesn't absolve someone of fucking up. If they fail to complete their project and deliver the goods promised then they have failed to live up to the agreement on kickstarter and must satisfy backers in some way or face a lawsuit.
Also once you switch to selling things on your website I think it becomes a lot harder to convince people they are pledging money and not entering into another agreement with you.
Lets be real here. From a legal standpoint, people have 0 case against SBS. The only successful lawsuits I've ever read on kickstarter projects are on people who literally took the money and used it for their own personal needs, and/or didn't even attempt to make the product.
And by their own terms and service, CoE's and kickstarter, all they owe you is an attempt to make the product. Unless you can prove that they're misusing funds for their own personal benefit, and they made the kickstarter with the purpose of deception, you aren't going to earn a dollar of your money back. And being wrong about your ESTIMATED release date is not a strong enough reason, nor should it be. Neither is deciding not to use Spatial, especially since I'm sure there is a mountain of evidence that they tried their best to use spatial and decided to go a different direction.
I think you are very wrong on all those points but in the name of our post-kumbiya relationship let’s move on to another topic.
It's fine man, I can take it. If you disagree, why do you disagree?
I never feel sorry for consumers who expect special treatment. You bought something that said no refund. If you weren't 100% sure about spending the money you shouldn't of done it. Maybe it's from working in sales for years, but I just don't have sympathy for this sort of thing.
If you REALLY want your money back, like I said in other threads, sell it on a third party site.
I don’t want to turn this into a refund thread. But my perspective is that the agreement has 2 sides. The customer pays money and agrees to no refund. The company agrees to deliver a specific product by a particular time. If the product changes significantly or the timeline (if it’s sold as 18 months and turns out to be 42 months for instance) then IMHO the company hasn’t lived up to their end of the agreement. One side can not unilaterally change an agreement. That’s not expecting special treatment. That’s just basic fairness to me.
But by the nature of kickstarter you are essentially agreeing to donate the money. You are paying money for someone to make a product, not buying a product.
IMO looking at kickstarter as preordering the game is totally missing the whole concept of what kickstarter is. It was never a place that advertised itself as a place to buy shit. Or even a place used to fully fund anything. It is used to "kickstart" someone's company and/or product.
I would understand people screaming unethical if they pocketed the money, canceled the project 6 months later. Or if they sat there and said "we guarantee you this product no later than". They gave you an estimated delivery date. Even in the FAQ they something to the effect of "right now we are aiming for December 2017". That's not exactly guaranteeing your product. They missed it. They're still using the money to make the game. If you didn't know what you were getting into, when you pledged that money, then that's on YOU for not doing thorough research on what kickstarter is.
All decent points but using kickstarter doesn't absolve someone of fucking up. If they fail to complete their project and deliver the goods promised then they have failed to live up to the agreement on kickstarter and must satisfy backers in some way or face a lawsuit.
Also once you switch to selling things on your website I think it becomes a lot harder to convince people they are pledging money and not entering into another agreement with you.
Lets be real here. From a legal standpoint, people have 0 case against SBS. The only successful lawsuits I've ever read on kickstarter projects are on people who literally took the money and used it for their own personal needs, and/or didn't even attempt to make the product.
And by their own terms and service, CoE's and kickstarter, all they owe you is an attempt to make the product. Unless you can prove that they're misusing funds for their own personal benefit, and they made the kickstarter with the purpose of deception, you aren't going to earn a dollar of your money back. And being wrong about your ESTIMATED release date is not a strong enough reason, nor should it be. Neither is deciding not to use Spatial, especially since I'm sure there is a mountain of evidence that they tried their best to use spatial and decided to go a different direction.
I think you are very wrong on all those points but in the name of our post-kumbiya relationship let’s move on to another topic.
It's fine man, I can take it. If you disagree, why do you disagree?
We are just going in circles speaking at each other. I'll recap my view one last time but I don't see much point in going past that...
1. From a legal standpoint, people have 0 case against SBS. The only successful lawsuits I've ever read on kickstarter projects are on people who literally took the money and used it for their own personal needs, and/or didn't even attempt to make the product.
My opinion as I described previously. Read up on the info from the American bar Association about the type of TOS used. They feel it is not enforceable and explain why. Also, the TOS as reflected today is NOT what it was previously... this was proven by Wellspring despite other poster's claims that it never changed. There are also consumer protection laws which cannot be overridden by a TOS.
2. And being wrong about your ESTIMATED release date is not a strong enough reason, nor should it be.
Being off a reasonable amount is one thing. Saying 18 months and then turning that into 3 and a half years (and maybe more) is not reasonable. There is a common sense reason-ability test that is applied here... Edit to add: Think about the estimate you get for a car repair. If they tell you it's estimated to cost $200 and you sign that and when you come back they hand you a bill for $625 are you OK with that?
3. Neither is deciding not to use Spatial, especially since I'm sure there is a mountain of evidence that they tried their best to use spatial and decided to go a different direction.
If you sell a product and describe one component of that as "the fabric" on which you are building the product changing it is a big deal. If you used that component as the reason people should believe your claims about being able to deliver... that's a big deal.
This is not specific to COE either. I really like Mark Jacobs. Once he stops offering refunds (we believe at the start of Beta 1 in July) he better hit his dates (or be reasonably close) with Camelot Unchained. If he suddenly chucked the engine that they are building and said it would be another 2 years because they were switching to Unreal or something... I would feel the same way. The reason I believed in the project is because I believed his pitch about the technology they were developing to make it possible.
Agreements have 2 sides. If a company does what it says, when they say they will do it then I see no grounds for refunds. If a player reneges on payment... I don't see why a company would have to deliver the product. If a company substantially changes the fabric the game will be built on and adds multiple years to the delivery... I think the consumer has a natural right to get their money back.
So you can respond again, saying you disagree with everything I posted... and we can move on to other conversations
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Comments
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
btw he isn't banned from the game, just banned from posting in the forums, so if/when game launches, his $165.00 isn't 'lost'
"I argued at length but she seemed to have a mental block that prevented her from seeing that according to her own words just a minute prior, I was not breaking any rule. Fed up, I insulted her and then she swore that she would have me banned from Discord."
I had my share of moments where I felt treated unfair by the mods on this site too but how stupid can you be to decide to end the conflict by insulting the mod?
Very funny read though.
And btw. @Caspian: If you read that post. Do me a favour and offer us refunds, before your ship sinks! Do it for your reputation. The reputation of SBS and all your employees.
I know you need every penny for the development of CoE, but you betrayed me with your presentation! I should have gotten a game, based on SpatialOS - nope (it was one of your main marketing arguments - mentioned a couple of times as the fabric of the game - main reason why I gave you my money). You consideraly changed the release date! I still haven't seen anything of any of your promised game mechanics! Just worthless "blabla" (sorry sounds maybe rude - but I feel like hearing our politicians promising things every day without any proof) in your dev journals, your artwork and spending time on senseless development of a justing video (just why - do you had to much free time?). To be honest - if you need more money - show us something! Show new people, which don't know anything about CoE, something about your vision. The game you are developing.
Some months ago I believed in you and SBS. I gave you my money. Investigated a lot of time in the community (not directly on the forums - but directly with other members believing in you too) But today, I'm just disappointed about the way everythingthing is going. I don't know you personally, but what I heard isn't really apeiciable.
All I want you to do, is to be honest with your bakers and the community. If you cannot accomplish what you promised, just announce it! I'm sure, the "brainwashed" mayority of them will support you.
I won't. You changed alot of things the last few month's (after I gave you my money - SpatialOS, release Date). So give us (the people who claim it) their money back. I think it just would be be fair.
Thanks
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
So I feel little sympathy for those who change their minds later and wish a refund, regardless of the circumstances or even if big delays or changes occur.
Even after long delay, and quite truthfully doubtful that I'll ever play the game, I don't consider asking MJ for refund, I knew what I was getting into, he still deserves a chance to make the game.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
And anyone who thinks Serpentius is a bad moderator should of seen the forums/discord before serpentius. 1000x better.
If you REALLY want your money back, like I said in other threads, sell it on a third party site.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
IMO looking at kickstarter as preordering the game is totally missing the whole concept of what kickstarter is. It was never a place that advertised itself as a place to buy shit. Or even a place used to fully fund anything. It is used to "kickstart" someone's company and/or product.
I would understand people screaming unethical if they pocketed the money, canceled the project 6 months later. Or if they sat there and said "we guarantee you this product no later than". They gave you an estimated delivery date. Even in the FAQ they something to the effect of "right now we are aiming for December 2017". That's not exactly guaranteeing your product. They missed it. They're still using the money to make the game. If you didn't know what you were getting into, when you pledged that money, then that's on YOU for not doing thorough research on what kickstarter is.
However, what happened with CoE and SBS's knowingly ambitious timeline was fairly low of them, though not outside the implied agreement with their backers. I also very much did not appreciate how they handled revealing that the deadline had no chance to be made. It was poorly handled all around by SBS and a significant part of the reason I left the community.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Peoples says, "ok heres my money"
SBS says, "no backs. used all your money for a demo but investors didn't buy it so we are broke. also, we dont have spatialOS anymore so we're making a game with a homemade toaster"
Peoples says, "can I have my money back then"
SBS says, "no - you knew what u were getting into"
Also once you switch to selling things on your website I think it becomes a lot harder to convince people they are pledging money and not entering into another agreement with you.
There must be large tolerance to problems that happen while making the product, but if it turns out that the time estimation is completely wrong and they must program a completely new game engine because the one in their plan can't be used, at some point you must be able to call out that the product isn't being made as agreed and ask for you money back. Kickstarter company's responsibility to you doesn't end with the end of Kickstarter campaign, it begins from that point.
It's not just Kickstarter. They were directly SELLING packages for all this time. They have a freaking STORE page... This is a business.
I'm not forcing anyone to follow my thoughts. If you consider your purchases donations that's absolutely within your rights. In this case I am not even advocating people TRY to get a refund (explained why previously). But these agreements are two sided and in my opinion it's simply unfair to hold one side to it when the other has not lived up to their end.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It's a lesson they fully grasp as adults and allows them to have no unrealistic expectations, such as getting refunds from a retail store which clearly posts there are no refunds. (We generally won't shop in such stores.)
You know, Soulbound doesn't consider store purchases to be donations either, they are "deposits" on future services, and its stated in the excerpt below four times these are non-refundable. (as well as two or three more times elsewhere in the TOS.)
It states they may freely change the date, and the last paragraph covers changing the content at will.
One oversight is no mention about the construction of the game, so the question about breaking their "promise " to use SpatialOS might actually be courtroom worthy as it's not covered in the agreement either way.
COE TOS... be careful what you agree to.
"Any funds raised through such third party service, as well as any funds raised through pre-release sales Services or any in-game incentives or perks as part of the Services, shall not constitute an investment and is a deposit to be used for the production of and the delivery of the Services, including the development and production costs for the Services, including operational costs of related to the Services or any third-party service costs deemed necessary or advisable to offer the Services, and including Soulbound Studios’ corporate expenses incurred in order to develop, produce, and deliver the Services.
Any funds so raised shall be earned by Soulbound Studios and are non-refundable. Such funds shall be applied to the direct provision of any Purchase made and/or to the cost of provision of the Services. Soulbound Studios shall use best efforts to deliver Services purchased pre-release on or before the estimated release date for the Services. However, you acknowledge and agree such delivery date is not a firm promise and may be extended by Soulbound Studios. Any portion of funds raised for the provision of the Services shall be non-refundable, unless such funds shall be deemed refundable under terms of services of the third party service through which those funds for the provision of Services were procured and in effect at the time of provision of those funds. In consideration of Soulbound Studios’ use of best efforts to develop, produce, and deliver the Services utilizing, in part or in whole, the funds raised for the provision of Services, you agree any amounts raised shall be non-refundable regardless of whether or not Soulbound Studios actually delivers the Services. In consideration for the promises by Soulbound Studios, you agree you shall irrevocable waive any claim for refund of any such funds.
You acknowledge and agree the Services provided may differ in certain aspects from descriptions, screen shots, or game footage shown or described at the time of deposit of such funds."
https://chroniclesofelyria.com/terms
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm talking about my belief that the foundation of every sale is an agreement between 2 parties where one party exchanges money for purchase of goods or services at an expected time from the other party.
As for your retail store example do you know that by accepting credit cards they actually are also subject to the rules of those cards? Some of those cards also have clauses for something called Return Protection which provide for returns even to a store that posts a "NO REFUND/NO RETURN/FINAL SALE" policy.
https://www.asksebby.com/blog/the-best-credit-card-for-return-protection
As you say, life isn't fair. Again, that works 2 ways.
I can tell you from personal experience with Mortal Online that I did in fact quickly receive my money back after complaining to my card company (I think it was Chase at that time) that I was pre-sold a game at X time and that it was now way beyond that time. And that I had attempted to receive a refund but was pointed to a "NO REFUND" policy in their TOS.
Again, I do not advocate doing that for CoE as I think it would be a stake through the heart and cause a lot of collateral damage. But transactions are a 2 way street.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Also, people dispute contracts all the time. Some win some don't. Everyone has the opportunity to at least try if they feel they have a good case. Lastly, the strength of a ToS varies from country to country.
Bureau of Consumer Protection
The FTC’s Bureau of Consumer Protection stops unfair, deceptive and fraudulent business practices by collecting complaints and conducting investigations, suing companies and people that break the law, developing rules to maintain a fair marketplace, and educating consumers and businesses about their rights and responsibilities.
https://www.ftc.gov/about-ftc/bureaus-offices/bureau-consumer-protection"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
And by their own terms and service, CoE's and kickstarter, all they owe you is an attempt to make the product and to update you on the product's situation. Unless you can prove that they're misusing funds for their own personal benefit, and they made the kickstarter with the purpose of deception, you aren't going to earn a dollar of your money back. And being wrong about your ESTIMATED release date is not a strong enough reason, nor should it be. Neither is deciding not to use Spatial, especially since I'm sure there is a mountain of evidence that they tried their best to use spatial and decided to go a different direction.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
1. From a legal standpoint, people have 0 case against SBS. The only successful lawsuits I've ever read on kickstarter projects are on people who literally took the money and used it for their own personal needs, and/or didn't even attempt to make the product.
My opinion as I described previously. Read up on the info from the American bar Association about the type of TOS used. They feel it is not enforceable and explain why. Also, the TOS as reflected today is NOT what it was previously... this was proven by Wellspring despite other poster's claims that it never changed. There are also consumer protection laws which cannot be overridden by a TOS.
2. And being wrong about your ESTIMATED release date is not a strong enough reason, nor should it be.
Being off a reasonable amount is one thing. Saying 18 months and then turning that into 3 and a half years (and maybe more) is not reasonable. There is a common sense reason-ability test that is applied here...
Edit to add: Think about the estimate you get for a car repair. If they tell you it's estimated to cost $200 and you sign that and when you come back they hand you a bill for $625 are you OK with that?
3. Neither is deciding not to use Spatial, especially since I'm sure there is a mountain of evidence that they tried their best to use spatial and decided to go a different direction.
If you sell a product and describe one component of that as "the fabric" on which you are building the product changing it is a big deal. If you used that component as the reason people should believe your claims about being able to deliver... that's a big deal.
This is not specific to COE either. I really like Mark Jacobs. Once he stops offering refunds (we believe at the start of Beta 1 in July) he better hit his dates (or be reasonably close) with Camelot Unchained. If he suddenly chucked the engine that they are building and said it would be another 2 years because they were switching to Unreal or something... I would feel the same way. The reason I believed in the project is because I believed his pitch about the technology they were developing to make it possible.
Agreements have 2 sides. If a company does what it says, when they say they will do it then I see no grounds for refunds. If a player reneges on payment... I don't see why a company would have to deliver the product. If a company substantially changes the fabric the game will be built on and adds multiple years to the delivery... I think the consumer has a natural right to get their money back.
So you can respond again, saying you disagree with everything I posted... and we can move on to other conversations
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018