So we have now established that buying resources (including rare ones) in a game that touts resources as finite and hard to collect is by definition a huge advantage. We then established that combining that with the ability to purchase things like patterns and techniques (both also able to be of various rarities), kits that make your military better and ones that make your technology better while also collecting $10 tokens to make your town bigger and better just act as multipliers of that advantage.
We have shown that buying these items for cash will ALWAYS be an advantage vs a player or group that is mirrored except has not purchased these advantages.
Can we now officially put this Pay to Build wordsmith attempt to rest until the Exposition Store opens and we get to see all the new advantages that you can spend real cash on?
You and perhaps a handful of people have proven that you have a specific opinion about this game being P2W. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but that doesn't "establish" it as a fact. I don't even think this game will ever get finished and that this is all theory but I still think it's not P2W because that term was coined for games that are designed for everyone to start on even footing and to be fair. It's times like this when I sympathize with Caspian and his disparaging of forums like this one. People get so up in arms about the idea of buying advantages in the game because all they see is another WvW game and how the EP and packages help give benefits to specific people and guilds. Never mind that the world is designed to have class warfare as well as actual warfare and that some people need to be in the different classes in order for that to work. So does it convey an advantage? Sure, if you're trying to be in a specific class and think buying everything is going to make you win the game. Otherwise, it's just another method of world-building. And if that is so upsetting to you then don't support the games development and pretend it doesn't exist, easy.
As I stated in the thread. Don't worry about quibbling about "Win" definitions. Most people use it as paying for an advantage which is how it started many years ago. So to make life easier... simply substitute win for huge advantage. If you note, the post you quoted specifically just referred to advantages purchased.
Again, buying resources for cash in a game that touts resources as finite and hard to collect is fundamentally a huge advantage. This is not "an opinion". This is a simple truth. If something is finite and hard to collect... having that thing is valuable.
There is no wordsmithing that changes that fact. Buying other items such as technology kits and patterns simply make that advantage even greater vs people that do not spend real money to get it.
Not that I agree with you by no stretch of means. But as you stated earlier those items you are talking about aren't even for sale in the store and were just an example of what -might- be available in the EP store during exposition. Remember, something to look forward to.
"...participate in the Dance of Dynasties (Which I look at as almost a separate game) Just to see how successful I could make my County."
If that were someone's goal (to participate in the DoD and have a successful county), is CoE P2W? (Check)
Reason: You can pay $500-$1000 to instantly become a count.
Wrong! I have won nothing! neither of us knows if my county will be a success or if I will be able to hold onto it for more then a year. I only obtained the opportunity to participate in the DoD as did a few hundred other people. I paid to play a different game would be more correct.
As for your other examples those are not -winning- features, they are goals and ambitions.
Your breakdown shows just how bad the monitization system is:
I can buy a kingdom and set the tax rate
I can be killed (or not get enough story points for an heir) and then lose that ability.
I personally would not play a game where things I purchased could be taken away from me.
What is to stop people from building up a territory and then taxing the crap out of the people and then transferring that money to an alt account? People do it in Eve Online all the time, they spend years moving up in a corp and making friends and then BAM, make off with all the assets.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
So we have now established that buying resources (including rare ones) in a game that touts resources as finite and hard to collect is by definition a huge advantage. We then established that combining that with the ability to purchase things like patterns and techniques (both also able to be of various rarities), kits that make your military better and ones that make your technology better while also collecting $10 tokens to make your town bigger and better just act as multipliers of that advantage.
We have shown that buying these items for cash will ALWAYS be an advantage vs a player or group that is mirrored except has not purchased these advantages.
Can we now officially put this Pay to Build wordsmith attempt to rest until the Exposition Store opens and we get to see all the new advantages that you can spend real cash on?
You and perhaps a handful of people have proven that you have a specific opinion about this game being P2W. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but that doesn't "establish" it as a fact. I don't even think this game will ever get finished and that this is all theory but I still think it's not P2W because that term was coined for games that are designed for everyone to start on even footing and to be fair. It's times like this when I sympathize with Caspian and his disparaging of forums like this one. People get so up in arms about the idea of buying advantages in the game because all they see is another WvW game and how the EP and packages help give benefits to specific people and guilds. Never mind that the world is designed to have class warfare as well as actual warfare and that some people need to be in the different classes in order for that to work. So does it convey an advantage? Sure, if you're trying to be in a specific class and think buying everything is going to make you win the game. Otherwise, it's just another method of world-building. And if that is so upsetting to you then don't support the games development and pretend it doesn't exist, easy.
As I stated in the thread. Don't worry about quibbling about "Win" definitions. Most people use it as paying for an advantage which is how it started many years ago. So to make life easier... simply substitute win for huge advantage. If you note, the post you quoted specifically just referred to advantages purchased.
Again, buying resources for cash in a game that touts resources as finite and hard to collect is fundamentally a huge advantage. This is not "an opinion". This is a simple truth. If something is finite and hard to collect... having that thing is valuable.
There is no wordsmithing that changes that fact. Buying other items such as technology kits and patterns simply make that advantage even greater vs people that do not spend real money to get it.
Not that I agree why you by no stretch of means. But as you stated earlier those items you are talking about aren't even for sale in the store and were just an example of what -might- be available in the EP store. Remember, something to look forward to.
The entire game fits the same logic at this point. All we have are Caspien’s statements. He listed resources as things you could buy. Thus I used that specific item and contrasted against the statement that resources would be finite and hard to collect.
Let’s revisit when the actual store releases. By the way is there a date for that? I think I will just put up a poll with zero commentary. Just a list of what is for sale as the text. With options simply : A) Pay for Advantage and B ) Pay to Build and Manage
Thats all.. no attempt to create a slanted perception. No claims on either side. Then we will see what the true, unbiased take is by the community.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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I personally would not play a game where things I purchased could be taken away from me.
This right here is why most Open PvP games fail to pull in top numbers.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Its funny that all these games lately that are P2W in many MMORPG Gamers eyes have post like this how their P2W system is not P2W. How about this OP. Tell your game to just build the game as a P2P only game like Ashes of Creation and see how much positive attention your game will get then? Why do you think Ashes of Creation is getting a lot of positive focus? Because they are not trying to run a model that causes a wallet war.
"Has open world PVP, but it is not illegal and punishable by law."
What does that sentence mean? How is it "not illegal" but "punishable by law"?
lol My bad for the typo, it is not legal.
As always I feel the Developer Journals can explain things better then I can. I will start this off by saying that PVP is possible no matter where you are in Elyria. However, there are consequences if you have criminal intent.
Something that is not mentioned in this link is that when you Coup De Grace another player you will also lose a portion of your lifespan.
Versions of Death: Incapacitation, Spirit Walking, and Permadeath
In most games, death is what happens when your health reaches zero. Generally once dead you are teleported to some nearby recall point and have the opportunity to live again, usually without consequences, so you can continue your quest. In Chronicles of Elyria, there are actually three different things which most games would classify as "dying." Each of them comes with varying degrees of consequences for all players involved.
Incapacitation
Incapacitation in CoE is the most common form of what other games would call “killing.” Incapacitation happens during any combat or event in which a person’s health is dropped to zero. This renders the character unconscious for a short period of time. While unconscious, the incapacitated person's screen goes black and they'll see a little timer telling them how much longer before they regain consciousness. Note that while they can't see anything, they can still hear what's going on around them. There's no reason for this, we just felt it was a nice touch, as it's often believed those who are unconscious or in a coma can still hear/sense those around them.
It’s also important to note that incapacitating someone unless legally done, is still a crime and typically comes with a small amount of jail time if arrested. We’ll talk more about the legal forms of incapacitating someone in a later journal.
While you're unconscious other players can do things such as "Quick Loot" your person, bind you for capture, or tow your body around a short distance. One of the things I want to call out here is that while being incapacitated leaves you unconscious, it doesn't actually result in any long-term penalties. There's no loss of Spirit for being incapacitated and it doesn't reduce your total lifespan.
Coup De Grace & Spirit Walking
The second form of "death" which we'll talk about during this article is Spirit Walking. Spirit Walking is what happens when someone takes the initiative to first incapacitate you, and then while you're unconscious, performs a coup de grace. A coup de grace is a killing stroke which results in your soul being forced out of your body in a process we call Spirit Walking. It’s also highly illegal and comes with severe punishment. In general, most beasts and NPCs will simply incapacitate you, however, especially evil humans or creatures may aim to kill.
When someone performs a coup de grace you'll hear your unconscious self-scream, and then your screen will transition from black to a vision of another world known as the Astral Plane. (See Figure 1.) This is the plane of existence between the mortal world and the world of the gods. When you enter the astral plane you'll see a small silver cord which goes from your soul, traveling some distance, to a highly saturated version of your mortal body that has manifested on the Astral Plane. This is your connection to the physical world.
As time passes, and your soul is separated from your body, your connection to the physical world grows weaker and weaker. If enough time passes and you cannot return to your mortal body, your body will become uninhabitable and your soul will be forced to make its way back to the Akashic Records.
There it is, I thought you were mistaken in your OP, it isn't wide open PVP, I've read this before but couldn't recall if this was COE, Ashes or some other game.
I am not sure what you mean?
As @Grugg noted, the typo (which is still in the OP btw) states "Has open world PVP, but it is not illegal and punishable by law."
I interpreted this to say, Has legal open world PVP which is not punishable by law.
I thought that couldn't be true but if so, then the life of a barbarian horde leader was going to be my chosen profession.
By you posting the above "rules" around PVP afterwards (which I had read before, but couldn't associate with COE at the time) it invalidated the entire premise along with several of my replies with others.
Makes considerable difference on how much of an advantage it is to be able to buy resources and other items in terms of impact on my gameplay.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think I have gotten a fair amount of replies to my original question, "what is winning in CoE". It is true, I havent partaken much in games where areal control is of much importance, unless you count in WARhammers wvw lakes where controlling nodes eventually lead you to the wvw endgame, or ESO's cyrodiil, where control gives you eventually a win, or heck toss in GW2 as well :P .
So winning in CoE is controlling as many resources as possible and be stronger economically and likely military than your neighbouring countries, or to form an alliance within your combined alliance have that advantage towards those not included within the alliance. Im not very much into these type of games, but I suspect after some months at most, all will be part of a mega alliance, as the stronger will always attack and consume the weaker "factions" within such games, unless theres a periodic "campaign" where the status is reset after a certain period of time.
For me though, call that p2w or not, id be more concerned about how that potentially will ruin the competition within each server, and make the game die. If all are "friends" within the same alliance/union, theres very little inscentive to play it for anyone interested in competitive wvw.
But until we get there, or if we exclude that problem, how will the mentioned pw2 or not pw2 possibilities interfere with how I consider being successful in an mmorpg, the wvw aspect of it
In CU we have already hired a lot of non pvp players, to build for us, so we wont have resource problems within that game. We are considering doing the same within CoE (notice im not going into a discussion wether or not the game will launch, this isnt the topic for that. Im basing this discussion upon the premesis there WILL be a launch with most of the condition set up by the developers available)
If there is a shop where you can buy weapons and armour for real cash, it will be a problem. If the same shop has the following merchandize available for RL cash I will consider it P2W within my winning objectives (which is as mentioned NOT having territorial control, but being best in guild vs guild fights, or being good in pvp); -end tier weapons (BiS) -potions or resources giving defensive, offensive or survivability advantage not craftable or obtainable elsewhere (we have crafters, so getting items within game should hopefully not be too difficult or time consuming anyway) -structures denying my group access to wvw only purchasable within a cash shop -NPC's denying my group access to wvw only purchaseable within a cash shop -mechanics one group can obtain to increase survivability only obtainable within a cash shop
Ill probably get up with some more. So far I have done a bit of research on these matters, and it SEEMS most of my objections will actually be available to all players, if you have the dedicated player interested in creating the content for those not obtaining it within the cash shop. Most of those I listed im actually quite ok with, although its borderline p2w, as long as you can get same items by playing for it (im interested inseeing how the OPC scripts can facilitate these objects. Can I order my toon to make potions and resources for my group while being afk, im cool with it being available in the shop)
What I absolutely can NOT accept, is equipment/gear which directly influences the players stats within a pvp setting, which can ONLY be purchased through the cash shop (some games do offer that) and which is BiS or at a level unreachable for crafters within reasonable efforts.
Look like I said... you are wasting your time and energy trying to convince us what we can all plainly see. Because I can lose and advantage does not mean I haven’t bought one.
If I buy a gun and you have a stick... I have a huge advantage. If you bring a friend, so can I so that argument is moot. If I die of old age I simply will my gun to my successor. Yes it costs more to be a noble. That’s exactly what P2W (call it pay for huge advantage if you want)is all about.
We have already discussed this in multiple threads. You or someone else will likely make another similar post in 3 months. The end result is always going to be the same. They allow you to use real world cash to buy massive in game advantages.
Dont run from it... embrace it and turn it into an advantage. Clinging to silly wordsmithing ideas like Pay 2 Build is just going to cling around the game’s neck like an anchor.
I am not trying to convince the handful of Naysayers, that would be a definite waste of my time. I am putting the information out there and participating in a debate, so that others are able to make up their own minds, rather than continuously being told how CoE is Pay-to-Win.
PS, what you neglect to take into consideration is that what others are paying for is going to be a benefit to all the players who populate that Domain.
And yes we have talked about it before, just as I have seen your store posts several times before. But now? We actually have a thread about it.
Actually, you aren't putting out information in an unbiased manner. You are essentially preaching to (at?) us unwashed sinners who don't think this game is anything but an attempt to get into the players' wallets. Putting a label on the situation ("Pay-to-Build and Manage") doesn't change the realities of the situation, nor the reality of the individual's perceptions of the situation.
Two major things that bother me about COE's philosophy.
Limited resources + a non-wipe head start. How many resources will be left for anyone not purchasing an early start package? How would a new character attempting to become a merchant compete with others who are established and have all the materials necessary to build items? You can't compete with US Steel without the resources to produce steel.
How will crime actually be punished? @Kyleran's barbarian hoard runs rampant, killing a lot of law-abiding characters. The leader is caught. How are they punished? Faction? They don't care. Imprisonment? They'll log out or switch to an alt. Jailed? They will log out/alt again or simply delete that character.
I simply don't agree with Caspian's idea of 'fair and equitable'.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Your breakdown shows just how bad the monitization system is:
I can buy a kingdom and set the tax rate
I can be killed (or not get enough story points for an heir) and then lose that ability.
I personally would not play a game where things I purchased could be taken away from me.
What is to stop people from building up a territory and then taxing the crap out of the people and then transferring that money to an alt account? People do it in Eve Online all the time, they spend years moving up in a corp and making friends and then BAM, make off with all the assets.
In regard to setting tax rates. It would be up to the King to ensure that the taxes are used productively within the Kingdom. (IE, Employment, Infostructure, Trades, Defence and things of that nature.) Not much different than the real world.
The idea behind heirs and the fact that you can lose everything is insurance that the Nobility is going to hold up their end of the bargain and -Not- win just because they paid to build and manage. They are going to have to work hard to keep their positions.
As for taxing the crap out of people and transferring that money into an Alt account? If your taxes are that unreasonable, players will just move to another kingdom, have you removed from your seat or simply avoid moving into your Kingdom at all. Which in turn, because CoE is created to tell a Story, it would make a good Story and give a reason for some awesome PVP.
At this time I don't know if you would be able to transfer from one account to another so I can't debate that point. I agree that it is something CoE should have a look at and find a way to prevent it. If they haven't yet.
You stated you wouldn't play a game where everything you purchased could be lost, and that is perfectly understandable. But also it confirms that this game is not a Pay-to-Win game. The people fully understood that they could lose everything they purchased during Crowdfunding before making their purchases but decided to support the development of the game anyways. The only guarantee they were given was the opportunity to help build the world, and Play in the Dance of Dynasties.
Once the game launches, there are no plans for a cash shop. Players will buy the game, create a character and log into their families estate. Into a world that is completely created by the players.
Your breakdown shows just how bad the monitization system is:
I can buy a kingdom and set the tax rate
I can be killed (or not get enough story points for an heir) and then lose that ability.
I personally would not play a game where things I purchased could be taken away from me.
What is to stop people from building up a territory and then taxing the crap out of the people and then transferring that money to an alt account? People do it in Eve Online all the time, they spend years moving up in a corp and making friends and then BAM, make off with all the assets.
Once the game launches, there are no plans for a cash shop. Players will buy the game, create a character and log into their families estate. Into a world that is completely created by the players.
Into a world where other players have already bought stockpiles of resources and weapons and armor that you can never also buy. Into a town in the best location because it was bought with real cash and you can never also do so. Protected by military upgrades and siege weapons the owners spent hundreds on but you can’t also do so.
Out trying to harvest some of the finite resources to start your business but crushed by someone else that started 3 months ago and is just waiting to kill you while you harvest.
Again... it’s a simple and fundamental truth that buying finite, hard to collect resources with real money is a huge advantage. There is no story telling or wordsmithing that will ever change that truth.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It might surprise people to know that Harbingers don't agree on everything. (Well, at least about stuff not in our official charter.)
@Slapshot1188 and many others ascribe to what I feel is an overly broad definition of the term PTW.
I do in fact split hairs regularly over definitions, and as many know I'm quite passionate about it and will never yield.
So, P2W for me is a cash shop purchase (usually, but not always an item of power) that if I don't buy I will have next to zero chance of "winning."
What is winning? Let's look at a well made WOW clone a few years back, Runes of Magic.
In the western "beta" they sold an item exclusive to the store which was used to "upgrade" your gear. (RNG of course)
My son and I were playing and both at level 45. Ran into a single lvl 40 stealther who antagonized us for several evenings, trying to gank us in mid pull. He rarely pulled it off because of our levels and we had good heals. (And my son was fast as lightning). We however could not kill him, or even get him below 50%.
We eventually got to chatting and he confessed to spending around $400 on gear buffs hence why we couldn't beat him
Later I watched a fight with a notorious "red" mage and I saw him hold off 30 or so same level players killing them repeatedly. He boasted of spending $8K on his gear and that all of his guildmates (all reds of course) were in for $2- $3K.
Final straw was when my guild leader said in order to start PVE I had better plan on spending $600 each for my son and I, and would likely go up in future expansions.
Too rich for my blood and I walked away having already spent about $200 for convenience items such as storage and mounts.
So for me, all measure of P2W are against that experience and I find most things people decry as P2W are Pay for Advantage (PFA) in my way of thinking.
PFA is largely a matter of degree. I don't care about cash shop convenience or cosmetic items, and even items of power are fine as long as they are priced within the range of the "average" (meaning me) player or can be obtained by spending a reasonable amount of time (meaning the amount of time I spend) in game to obtain it.
EVE is such a game, nothing they sell has ever impacted my gameplay, or if they did I could not discern it
This games cash doesn't really concern me much, even if it provides players a big advantage at release, theres no MMORPG I've ever played where some group of players didnt have a big advantage in terms of time played, more skill, more friends, etc.
What do I really care if some spend money for it, doesn't impact my gameplay in any way compared to advantages players often have over me by other means.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I just picture Caspien sitting in his room, staring at his monitor reading this thread and going:
Which part about "it's imperative that the topic of conversation isn't about whether we're P2W or not. If that becomes the conversation, we've likely already lost the battle " did they not understand.
I actually almost have sympathy for him... but this is what you get when you ask the angry mob to go shut down skeptics. You lose control of the narrative and turn it over to people who are actually going to quote your request not to have conversations about whether or not the game is P2W in threads they make starting a conversation about it.
I couldn't possibly do any more harm than you are trying to do by continuously posting, in nearly every thread, a store that doesn't exist and calling the game P2W.
And as I have said several times, I have been around MMORPG since CoE's Kickstarter. My motives have absolutely nothing to do with what Caspian might or mightn't have said. But rather they are because of how things get so twisted around and the lack information in these debates if you want to call them that.
Kyleran I don’t know if we are off too far. I think we spend too much time debating the meaning if winning. I switched to using the more accurate pay for advantage.
The problem I have with your last statement is that it (seemingly) excludes the possibility that someone who already had more time and skill than you can now also expand that gap with cash.
One of the things that make COE worse than most (IMHO) is that they will close the cash shop to new players. This is fundamentally an unfair concept. I hate cash shops, but only letting early backers buy their advantages is the worst of all worlds. They spent millions on advantages so far. At least give the poor schlep that joins later the same chance to buy those hard to collect resources etc...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
One of the things that make COE worse than most (IMHO) is that they will close the cash shop to new players. This is fundamentally an unfair concept. I hate cash shops, but only letting early backers buy their advantages is the worst of all worlds. They spent millions on advantages so far. At least give the poor schlep that joins later the same chance to buy those hard to collect resources etc...
If you were educated regarding the entire design of the game you would be knowledgeable in the fact that a Cash Shop would defeat the purpose entirely. You don't seem to comprehend that CoE is actually two games in one so to speak. The estimated five percent that backed the game is actually building the world and playing the Dance of Dynasties. The other ninety-five percent that comes in at launch will be playing and be benefiting from what was done, created and paid for before they got there, without the extra expense of a cash shop.
All you see it what might be able to be bought, what you don't see is most of what can be bought is a benefit to all that play in that region.
One of the things that make COE worse than most (IMHO) is that they will close the cash shop to new players. This is fundamentally an unfair concept. I hate cash shops, but only letting early backers buy their advantages is the worst of all worlds. They spent millions on advantages so far. At least give the poor schlep that joins later the same chance to buy those hard to collect resources etc...
If you were educated regarding the entire design of the game you would be knowledgeable in the fact that a Cash Shop would defeat the purpose entirely. You don't seem to comprehend that CoE is actually two games in one so to speak. The estimated five percent that backed the game is actually building the world and playing the Dance of Dynasties. The other ninety-five percent that comes in at launch will be playing and be benefiting from what was done, created and paid for before they got there, without the extra expense of a cash shop.
Make up your mind. In one post you tell people I am well researched and in others you try to claim I’m not.
I think I’ve proven repeatedly that I know at least as much as the Ivory Tower... but please be consistent.
And you’re right... COE is two games in one. The haves... and the have nots.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I just picture Caspien sitting in his room, staring at his monitor reading this thread and going:
Which part about "it's imperative that the topic of conversation isn't about whether we're P2W or not. If that becomes the conversation, we've likely already lost the battle " did they not understand.
I actually almost have sympathy for him... but this is what you get when you ask the angry mob to go shut down skeptics. You lose control of the narrative and turn it over to people who are actually going to quote your request not to have conversations about whether or not the game is P2W in threads they make starting a conversation about it.
I couldn't possibly do any more harm than you
I beg to differ. I think you’re doing a fine job!
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
One of the things that make COE worse than most (IMHO) is that they will close the cash shop to new players. This is fundamentally an unfair concept. I hate cash shops, but only letting early backers buy their advantages is the worst of all worlds. They spent millions on advantages so far. At least give the poor schlep that joins later the same chance to buy those hard to collect resources etc...
If you were educated regarding the entire design of the game you would be knowledgeable in the fact that a Cash Shop would defeat the purpose entirely. You don't seem to comprehend that CoE is actually two games in one so to speak. The estimated five percent that backed the game is actually building the world and playing the Dance of Dynasties. The other ninety-five percent that comes in at launch will be playing and be benefiting from what was done, created and paid for before they got there, without the extra expense of a cash shop.
Make up your mind. In one post you tell people I am well researched and in others you try to claim I’m not.
I think I’ve proven repeatedly that I know at least as much as the Ivory Tower... but please be consistent.
And you’re right... COE is two games in one. The haves... and the have nots.
Oh, I know you do your research there is no question, but how you interpret that information is definitely slatted, twisted or made to appear to be something it isn't.
I just picture Caspien sitting in his room, staring at his monitor reading this thread and going:
Which part about "it's imperative that the topic of conversation isn't about whether we're P2W or not. If that becomes the conversation, we've likely already lost the battle " did they not understand.
I actually almost have sympathy for him... but this is what you get when you ask the angry mob to go shut down skeptics. You lose control of the narrative and turn it over to people who are actually going to quote your request not to have conversations about whether or not the game is P2W in threads they make starting a conversation about it.
I couldn't possibly do any more harm than you
I beg to differ. I think you’re doing a fine job!
You are entitled to your opinion.
PS, I do find it interesting though how you edited the quote and took out all of what I said.
"I couldn't possibly do any more harm than you are trying to do by continuously posting, in nearly every thread, a store that doesn't exist and calling the game P2W."
PS, I do find it interesting though how you edited the quote and took out all of what I said.
"I couldn't possibly do any more harm than you are trying to do by continuously posting, in nearly every thread, a store that doesn't exist and calling the game P2W."
The harm was already done with their monetization model which already keeps people away. The people who spent a lot of money in fund raising have an advantage over those who dont. That puts off so many people. Coming to the forums and trying to prove a point when countless people are already turned off by said design only shows how desperate the studio is to try to get more money.
PS, I do find it interesting though how you edited the quote and took out all of what I said.
"I couldn't possibly do any more harm than you are trying to do by continuously posting, in nearly every thread, a store that doesn't exist and calling the game P2W."
The harm was already done with their monetization model which already keeps people away. The people who spent a lot of money in fund raising have an advantage over those who dont. That puts off so many people. Coming to the forums and trying to prove a point when countless people are already turned off by said design only shows how desperate the studio is to try to get more money.
My actions have nothing to do with the studio, they certainly can't be responsible for everyone in their community. In addition, if people are so put off, and the studio is so desperate why has it made $23,649 in the last 48 hours?
Im in with Kyleran on his point of view Finally found someone I can totally agree with hehe. And danwest, please, SOME people are kept away. SOME. As apparently others are ok with their business model. I havent put in a single dime, apart from the fact I bought the core game already, hardly a big investment
Anyone can answer a question I have in this regard? ; Concerning the scripts for the OPC's, lets say I buy one which instructs my toon to research lets say heavy armour, and I do it for several days, spending several scripts on it. My toon gets to know how to make the BiS armour available at that point, I then buy a script to craft and gather mats for said armour. Is that p2w or convenience? What if I can just buy the same armour from the cash shop instead of spending my offline time on my toon making it? Which one is p2w and which one is not? Is either of them fair?
I personally think buying that armour from a cash shop is p2w, BECAUSE I COULD spend my scripts on other things, equally important. I could spend scripts on combat training, which would give me a huge advantage against a player who spent his time researching the same armour. Hence, buying BiS gear from a cash shop is P2W imo, while buying scripts is not, and I would say making scripts available in a cash shop actually is a great idea to fundraise the game in a good way
PS, I do find it interesting though how you edited the quote and took out all of what I said.
"I couldn't possibly do any more harm than you are trying to do by continuously posting, in nearly every thread, a store that doesn't exist and calling the game P2W."
The harm was already done with their monetization model which already keeps people away. The people who spent a lot of money in fund raising have an advantage over those who dont. That puts off so many people. Coming to the forums and trying to prove a point when countless people are already turned off by said design only shows how desperate the studio is to try to get more money.
My actions have nothing to do with the studio, they certainly can't be responsible for everyone in their community. In addition, if people are so put off, and the studio is so desperate why has it made $23,649 in the last 48 hours?
Coming to these forums and endlessly defending a game that is not doing well or a studio that has to lay off people during the development phase shows that there are major issues.
WOW really they made $23,649 in the last 48 hours. /Golf Clap
Ashes hit their $750,000 kickstarter requirement in what 20 minutes? They got 19,576 backers and $3,271,809 in 30 days by creating a P2P non P2W MMORPG. They also have $30 Million in other money invested.
A lot of people stay away from CoE's model like the plague because people refuse to play a game that is nothing more than a Wallet war.
Comments
"...participate in the Dance of Dynasties (Which I look at as almost a separate game) Just to see how successful I could make my County."
If that were someone's goal (to participate in the DoD and have a successful county), is CoE P2W? (Check)
Reason: You can pay $500-$1000 to instantly become a count.
As for your other examples those are not -winning- features, they are goals and ambitions.
I can buy a kingdom and set the tax rate
I can be killed (or not get enough story points for an heir) and then lose that ability.
I personally would not play a game where things I purchased could be taken away from me.
What is to stop people from building up a territory and then taxing the crap out of the people and then transferring that money to an alt account? People do it in Eve Online all the time, they spend years moving up in a corp and making friends and then BAM, make off with all the assets.
Let’s revisit when the actual store releases. By the way is there a date for that? I think I will just put up a poll with zero commentary. Just a list of what is for sale as the text. With options simply : A) Pay for Advantage and B ) Pay to Build and Manage
Thats all.. no attempt to create a slanted perception. No claims on either side. Then we will see what the true, unbiased take is by the community.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I interpreted this to say, Has legal open world PVP which is not punishable by law.
I thought that couldn't be true but if so, then the life of a barbarian horde leader was going to be my chosen profession.
By you posting the above "rules" around PVP afterwards (which I had read before, but couldn't associate with COE at the time) it invalidated the entire premise along with several of my replies with others.
Makes considerable difference on how much of an advantage it is to be able to buy resources and other items in terms of impact on my gameplay.
More on that thought in a fresh reply.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So winning in CoE is controlling as many resources as possible and be stronger economically and likely military than your neighbouring countries, or to form an alliance within your combined alliance have that advantage towards those not included within the alliance. Im not very much into these type of games, but I suspect after some months at most, all will be part of a mega alliance, as the stronger will always attack and consume the weaker "factions" within such games, unless theres a periodic "campaign" where the status is reset after a certain period of time.
For me though, call that p2w or not, id be more concerned about how that potentially will ruin the competition within each server, and make the game die. If all are "friends" within the same alliance/union, theres very little inscentive to play it for anyone interested in competitive wvw.
But until we get there, or if we exclude that problem, how will the mentioned pw2 or not pw2 possibilities interfere with how I consider being successful in an mmorpg, the wvw aspect of it
In CU we have already hired a lot of non pvp players, to build for us, so we wont have resource problems within that game. We are considering doing the same within CoE (notice im not going into a discussion wether or not the game will launch, this isnt the topic for that. Im basing this discussion upon the premesis there WILL be a launch with most of the condition set up by the developers available)
If there is a shop where you can buy weapons and armour for real cash, it will be a problem. If the same shop has the following merchandize available for RL cash I will consider it P2W within my winning objectives (which is as mentioned NOT having territorial control, but being best in guild vs guild fights, or being good in pvp);
-end tier weapons (BiS)
-potions or resources giving defensive, offensive or survivability advantage not craftable or obtainable elsewhere (we have crafters, so getting items within game should hopefully not be too difficult or time consuming anyway)
-structures denying my group access to wvw only purchasable within a cash shop
-NPC's denying my group access to wvw only purchaseable within a cash shop
-mechanics one group can obtain to increase survivability only obtainable within a cash shop
Ill probably get up with some more. So far I have done a bit of research on these matters, and it SEEMS most of my objections will actually be available to all players, if you have the dedicated player interested in creating the content for those not obtaining it within the cash shop. Most of those I listed im actually quite ok with, although its borderline p2w, as long as you can get same items by playing for it (im interested inseeing how the OPC scripts can facilitate these objects. Can I order my toon to make potions and resources for my group while being afk, im cool with it being available in the shop)
What I absolutely can NOT accept, is equipment/gear which directly influences the players stats within a pvp setting, which can ONLY be purchased through the cash shop (some games do offer that) and which is BiS or at a level unreachable for crafters within reasonable efforts.
Two major things that bother me about COE's philosophy.
- How will crime actually be punished? @Kyleran's barbarian hoard runs rampant, killing a lot of law-abiding characters. The leader is caught. How are they punished? Faction? They don't care. Imprisonment? They'll log out or switch to an alt. Jailed? They will log out/alt again or simply delete that character.
I simply don't agree with Caspian's idea of 'fair and equitable'.Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
The idea behind heirs and the fact that you can lose everything is insurance that the Nobility is going to hold up their end of the bargain and -Not- win just because they paid to build and manage. They are going to have to work hard to keep their positions.
As for taxing the crap out of people and transferring that money into an Alt account? If your taxes are that unreasonable, players will just move to another kingdom, have you removed from your seat or simply avoid moving into your Kingdom at all. Which in turn, because CoE is created to tell a Story, it would make a good Story and give a reason for some awesome PVP.
At this time I don't know if you would be able to transfer from one account to another so I can't debate that point. I agree that it is something CoE should have a look at and find a way to prevent it. If they haven't yet.
You stated you wouldn't play a game where everything you purchased could be lost, and that is perfectly understandable. But also it confirms that this game is not a Pay-to-Win game. The people fully understood that they could lose everything they purchased during Crowdfunding before making their purchases but decided to support the development of the game anyways. The only guarantee they were given was the opportunity to help build the world, and Play in the Dance of Dynasties.
Once the game launches, there are no plans for a cash shop. Players will buy the game, create a character and log into their families estate. Into a world that is completely created by the players.
Out trying to harvest some of the finite resources to start your business but crushed by someone else that started 3 months ago and is just waiting to kill you while you harvest.
Again... it’s a simple and fundamental truth that buying finite, hard to collect resources with real money is a huge advantage. There is no story telling or wordsmithing that will ever change that truth.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
@Slapshot1188 and many others ascribe to what I feel is an overly broad definition of the term PTW.
I do in fact split hairs regularly over definitions, and as many know I'm quite passionate about it and will never yield.
So, P2W for me is a cash shop purchase (usually, but not always an item of power) that if I don't buy I will have next to zero chance of "winning."
What is winning? Let's look at a well made WOW clone a few years back, Runes of Magic.
In the western "beta" they sold an item exclusive to the store which was used to "upgrade" your gear. (RNG of course)
My son and I were playing and both at level 45. Ran into a single lvl 40 stealther who antagonized us for several evenings, trying to gank us in mid pull. He rarely pulled it off because of our levels and we had good heals. (And my son was fast as lightning). We however could not kill him, or even get him below 50%.
We eventually got to chatting and he confessed to spending around $400 on gear buffs hence why we couldn't beat him
Later I watched a fight with a notorious "red" mage and I saw him hold off 30 or so same level players killing them repeatedly. He boasted of spending $8K on his gear and that all of his guildmates (all reds of course) were in for $2- $3K.
Final straw was when my guild leader said in order to start PVE I had better plan on spending $600 each for my son and I, and would likely go up in future expansions.
Too rich for my blood and I walked away having already spent about $200 for convenience items such as storage and mounts.
So for me, all measure of P2W are against that experience and I find most things people decry as P2W are Pay for Advantage (PFA) in my way of thinking.
PFA is largely a matter of degree. I don't care about cash shop convenience or cosmetic items, and even items of power are fine as long as they are priced within the range of the "average" (meaning me) player or can be obtained by spending a reasonable amount of time (meaning the amount of time I spend) in game to obtain it.
EVE is such a game, nothing they sell has ever impacted my gameplay, or if they did I could not discern it
This games cash doesn't really concern me much, even if it provides players a big advantage at release, theres no MMORPG I've ever played where some group of players didnt have a big advantage in terms of time played, more skill, more friends, etc.
What do I really care if some spend money for it, doesn't impact my gameplay in any way compared to advantages players often have over me by other means.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
And as I have said several times, I have been around MMORPG since CoE's Kickstarter. My motives have absolutely nothing to do with what Caspian might or mightn't have said. But rather they are because of how things get so twisted around and the lack information in these debates if you want to call them that.
The problem I have with your last statement is that it (seemingly) excludes the possibility that someone who already had more time and skill than you can now also expand that gap with cash.
One of the things that make COE worse than most (IMHO) is that they will close the cash shop to new players. This is fundamentally an unfair concept. I hate cash shops, but only letting early backers buy their advantages is the worst of all worlds. They spent millions on advantages so far. At least give the poor schlep that joins later the same chance to buy those hard to collect resources etc...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All you see it what might be able to be bought, what you don't see is most of what can be bought is a benefit to all that play in that region.
I think I’ve proven repeatedly that I know at least as much as the Ivory Tower... but please be consistent.
And you’re right... COE is two games in one. The haves... and the have nots.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I would call this one Pay to loose.
You pay, you lose.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
PS, I do find it interesting though how you edited the quote and took out all of what I said.
"I couldn't possibly do any more harm than you are trying to do by continuously posting, in nearly every thread, a store that doesn't exist and calling the game P2W."
Anyone can answer a question I have in this regard? ; Concerning the scripts for the OPC's, lets say I buy one which instructs my toon to research lets say heavy armour, and I do it for several days, spending several scripts on it. My toon gets to know how to make the BiS armour available at that point, I then buy a script to craft and gather mats for said armour. Is that p2w or convenience? What if I can just buy the same armour from the cash shop instead of spending my offline time on my toon making it? Which one is p2w and which one is not? Is either of them fair?
I personally think buying that armour from a cash shop is p2w, BECAUSE I COULD spend my scripts on other things, equally important. I could spend scripts on combat training, which would give me a huge advantage against a player who spent his time researching the same armour. Hence, buying BiS gear from a cash shop is P2W imo, while buying scripts is not, and I would say making scripts available in a cash shop actually is a great idea to fundraise the game in a good way
WOW really they made $23,649 in the last 48 hours. /Golf Clap
Ashes hit their $750,000 kickstarter requirement in what 20 minutes? They got 19,576 backers and $3,271,809 in 30 days by creating a P2P non P2W MMORPG. They also have $30 Million in other money invested.
A lot of people stay away from CoE's model like the plague because people refuse to play a game that is nothing more than a Wallet war.