We Will ever see game like BDO with zero P2W?

davc123

We Will ever see game like BDO with zero P2W? i want game to be Buy2Play with monthly subscription and Cosmetic CashShop also company who actually care for players and not only money

Phry

BDO isn't really all that bad, you can't actually buy the win in BDO, you can't even buy your way to being competitive, the only way to advance in the game is through actual work and a lot of it at that.
As for the other, all Publishers/Developers are a business, they are about making money, some are better at it than others when it comes to how consumer friendly they are, but if there is one thing you can be very sure about is that they all care about the money.

TheScavenger

Phry said:

BDO isn't really all that bad, you can't actually buy the win in BDO, you can't even buy your way to being competitive, the only way to advance in the game is through actual work and a lot of it at that.
As for the other, all Publishers/Developers are a business, they are about making money, some are better at it than others when it comes to how consumer friendly they are, but if there is one thing you can be very sure about is that they all care about the money.

to some people on this forum, they expect a 100% free MMO with no cash shop (not even cosmetics), no monthly fee, no donations, and the best MMO ever in the world...all for free

Forgrimm

Sadly BDO just took another stop closer to P2W, in that you can use Pearls to buy sealed book of combat for 50% extra combat exp and 20% extra skill exp. And the Kamasylve blessing which increases energy recovery +2 and item drop rate by 20%.

Sovrath

davc123 said:

We Will ever see game like BDO with zero P2W? B2P or P2P also company who actually care for players and not only money

How would anyone know?

Can you name any companies that care about their customers but not "only" money?

Oh, I think some care about their customers "and" money. But in the end a company has to make money or "wants to make money" depending on their setup.

Black Desert seems to have been an expensive game to make. And there aren't a lot of expensive mmorpg's being made at the moment.

So maybe the answer is no? Who knows.

davc123

TheScavenger said:

Phry said:

BDO isn't really all that bad, you can't actually buy the win in BDO, you can't even buy your way to being competitive, the only way to advance in the game is through actual work and a lot of it at that.
As for the other, all Publishers/Developers are a business, they are about making money, some are better at it than others when it comes to how consumer friendly they are, but if there is one thing you can be very sure about is that they all care about the money.

to some people on this forum, they expect a 100% free MMO with no cash shop (not even cosmetics), no monthly feet, no donations, and the best MMO ever in the world...all for free

not really .... i say B2P OR  P2P with cosmetics should be ok  

• Value Pack - $15
• Combat Book - $25
• Kamasylvia - $25

https://www.reddit.com/r/blackdesertonline/comments/7xjm35/an_objective_look_at_paytowin/?st=jdnm6dw4&sh=2c7e0f9f

Phry

you have zero chance to be good at pvp i mean competitive with top player even if you play 8h/day 

Ungood

I played BDO for a week.. I still don't know where the store is.. if that ain't a lack of P2W, I have no idea what is.

tomy111

Phry said:

BDO isn't really all that bad, you can't actually buy the win in BDO, you can't even buy your way to being competitive,

• Artisan's Memory - A) Pay-to-win. Yes, you can just get more Memory Fragments without paying - but you will never get them at the rate of someone using Artisans, because they by default have 4x the effectiveness of a F2P player. Completely pay-to-win. Your Memory Fragments are 4x more effective than someone not paying. Result: Objectively pay-to-win.

• Canape Outfit - A) Not pay-to-win. With a +5 outfit you can reach a 1s time. (although extremely expensive, this is objectively true. when panaceas come out, you will only need +4) Pay-to-win. You have to spend far less than a F2P player to get your 1s time. Result: Not objectively pay-to-win. It's debatable. Since there is a ceiling of effectiveness which can be reached by both paid and F2P players, it is debatable.

• Swimming Outfits - A) Pay-to-win. It is impossible for a F2P player to reach the swimming speed/underwater breathing time of someone with one of these costumes. They are on the loyalty shop, but you cannot permanently have one. Pay-to-win. (everything on this list will be Pay-to-Win to B, not gonna bother with further explanations for this one) Result: Objectively pay-to-win. This is a completely pay-to-win item no matter what camp you belong to.

• Inventory Expansions - A) Not necessarily pay-to-win. These can be obtained through loyalties (even though at a very, very slow rate), and when bought with loyalties they are permanent as if they were bought from the cash shop. Pay-to-win. Result: Not objectively pay-to-win. This one is very debatable even within group A. There is a ceiling though (192 slots) that can be reached by F2P players, so group A can argue this is not pay-to-win.

• Naphart Campsite - A) Pay-to-win. The permanent parts, the extra bonuses (remote villas), etc. are not obtainable by a F2P player, even through loyalties. This leads to a grinding/life skilling efficiency a F2P player cannot reach. Pay-to-win. Result: Objectively pay-to-win.

• Kama's Blessing - A) Pay-to-win. A F2P player can not possibly reach the amount of Kama uptime as a paying player. There is a 1-day in the loyalty shop, but that only allows you 1/10 uptime as a F2P player. As opposed to the inventory expansions, where you can eventually reach full slots, you will never match Kama uptime with someone that pays for it. You could just grind 20% longer - but the point is you can not reach the level of efficiency that someone equally geared with a Kama blessing can as a F2P player. Pay-to-win. Result: Objectively pay-to-win.

• Value Pack - A) Pay-to-win. The 100LT is not obtainable without the VP. 16 storage in every town saves you ridiculous amounts of CP. The biggest offender - 30% marketplace bonus - literally takes some life skill actions from losses to big profits. (cooking, etc.) None of these things are obtainable by a F2P player, except for one day every 2 weeks. A F2P player cannot reach as much VP uptime as a paying player. Pay-to-win. Result: Objectively pay-to-win. The market bonus in particular makes some recipes profitable purely on its own.

• Valk's Cry (not in our version yet, purely for speculation) - A) Pay-to-win. Yes, you could just get 10 more failstacks as a F2P player to match the +10 from Valk's Cry. But so could the paying player, and then they still have +10 up on you. Assuming everything else is even, a F2P player cannot match the +10 from Valk's. Pay-to-win. Result: Objectively pay-to-win. A paid player can match whatever failstacks a F2P player can get, and then add on another 10 by paying.

Kajidourden

Meh, BDO is so shallow my pinky toe can't be submerged by it.

Kyleran

Not  seeing anything that meets my definition of P2W, but they sure do sell some mighty fine advantages which I probably wouldn't be able to resist buying.

I love advantages and conveniences, what can I say?

Cryomatrix

Kyleran said:

Not  seeing anything that meets my definition of P2W, but they sure do sell some mighty fine advantages which I probably wouldn't be able to resist buying.

I love advantages and conveniences, what can I say?

Im the same way. Id be almost foced to buy those just for efficiencies sake.

Cryomatrix

cjmarsh

Cryomatrix said:

Kyleran said:

Not  seeing anything that meets my definition of P2W, but they sure do sell some mighty fine advantages which I probably wouldn't be able to resist buying.

I love advantages and conveniences, what can I say?

Im the same way. Id be almost foced to buy those just for efficiencies sake.

Cryomatrix

I'm glad I'm not the only one because I swear I see those and it's like 'I really don't need any of this stuff and it's definitely not worth THAT much' but then I buy it anyways because I feel like I'm doing it wrong if I don't min-max all the things.

davc123

Try processing w/o weight and Venecil.

Cooking w/o Canape.

Grinding w/o pets.

Fishing w/o inventory.

Proper worker empire w/o pearl lodging and storage.

It's all designed so you kind of need to spend money.

also gl have fun at pvp w/o spend money

Daikuru

Seems like there are only two ways to get MMOs nowadays, via kickstarter or korean made. I loved Aion when it was released, ArcheAge was a beautiful game with awesome ideas, but it was terrible executed with some shitty design decisions. There are popular games like Path of Exile, without P2W shit, so it would be definitley possible, but it seems the greed is strong in branch and the world.

zaberfangx

Only way find a MMO with zero p2w or not reaching over is a MMO with no investor backing other the player base. MMO cost to much. Even if someone start up from the ground up people won't play it due to lack of something that a AAA MMO do have then a small MMO don't have.

Daikuru

zaberfangx said:

Only way find a MMO with zero p2w or not reaching over is a MMO with no investor backing other the player base. MMO cost to much. Even if someone start up from the ground up people won't play it due to lack of something that a AAA MMO do have then a small MMO don't have.

MMOs are not more expensive to make than other games.

Bestinna

why would you want to

zaberfangx

Daikuru said:

zaberfangx said:

Only way find a MMO with zero p2w or not reaching over is a MMO with no investor backing other the player base. MMO cost to much. Even if someone start up from the ground up people won't play it due to lack of something that a AAA MMO do have then a small MMO don't have.

MMOs are not more expensive to make than other games.

If is a AAA type of MMO it is very expensive to make this day of age.

IceAge

TheScavenger said:

Phry said:

BDO isn't really all that bad, you can't actually buy the win in BDO, you can't even buy your way to being competitive, the only way to advance in the game is through actual work and a lot of it at that.
As for the other, all Publishers/Developers are a business, they are about making money, some are better at it than others when it comes to how consumer friendly they are, but if there is one thing you can be very sure about is that they all care about the money.

to some people on this forum, they expect a 100% free MMO with no cash shop (not even cosmetics), no monthly fee, no donations, and the best MMO ever in the world...all for free

Yet, the OP has a point .

Sure, he picked the wrong game here lol , since as far as I know, BDO is nowhere near P2W. But in general , yup! MMO's this days are mostly P2W. 

Daikuru

zaberfangx said:

Daikuru said:

zaberfangx said:

Only way find a MMO with zero p2w or not reaching over is a MMO with no investor backing other the player base. MMO cost to much. Even if someone start up from the ground up people won't play it due to lack of something that a AAA MMO do have then a small MMO don't have.

MMOs are not more expensive to make than other games.

If is a AAA type of MMO it is very expensive to make this day of age.

Every AAA game is expensive to make, MMOs are no exception, but they are not more expensive than other games.

IceAge said:

TheScavenger said:

Phry said:

BDO isn't really all that bad, you can't actually buy the win in BDO, you can't even buy your way to being competitive, the only way to advance in the game is through actual work and a lot of it at that.
As for the other, all Publishers/Developers are a business, they are about making money, some are better at it than others when it comes to how consumer friendly they are, but if there is one thing you can be very sure about is that they all care about the money.

to some people on this forum, they expect a 100% free MMO with no cash shop (not even cosmetics), no monthly fee, no donations, and the best MMO ever in the world...all for free

Yet, the OP has a point .

Sure, he picked the wrong game here lol , since as far as I know, BDO is nowhere near P2W. But in general , yup! MMO's this days are mostly P2W. 

I wonder why this is so, i mean, games like PoE or LoL have shown that you can make F2P games without P2W, seems like this "mentality" didnt reach other companies.

Konfess

The OP had a technical error in punctuation.  What they really meant to write was, "zero P2W, B2P, or P2P?"  What they are talking about is how every Play 4 Free (P4F) gamer feels gaming is meant to be, absolute no cost what so ever.

So the question we are all considering here is, will there ever be a game like XXXX (any game name here) that has no cost to the gamer?

KnightFalz

Maybe. My question is would people recognize it if they saw it? The p2w appellation is so frequently misapplied I generally dismiss it on sight.

KnightFalz

Daikuru said:

zaberfangx said:

Daikuru said:

zaberfangx said:

Only way find a MMO with zero p2w or not reaching over is a MMO with no investor backing other the player base. MMO cost to much. Even if someone start up from the ground up people won't play it due to lack of something that a AAA MMO do have then a small MMO don't have.

MMOs are not more expensive to make than other games.

If is a AAA type of MMO it is very expensive to make this day of age.

Every AAA game is expensive to make, MMOs are no exception, but they are not more expensive than other games.

IceAge said:

TheScavenger said:

Phry said:

BDO isn't really all that bad, you can't actually buy the win in BDO, you can't even buy your way to being competitive, the only way to advance in the game is through actual work and a lot of it at that.
As for the other, all Publishers/Developers are a business, they are about making money, some are better at it than others when it comes to how consumer friendly they are, but if there is one thing you can be very sure about is that they all care about the money.

to some people on this forum, they expect a 100% free MMO with no cash shop (not even cosmetics), no monthly fee, no donations, and the best MMO ever in the world...all for free

Yet, the OP has a point .

Sure, he picked the wrong game here lol , since as far as I know, BDO is nowhere near P2W. But in general , yup! MMO's this days are mostly P2W. 

I wonder why this is so, i mean, games like PoE or LoL have shown that you can make F2P games without P2W, seems like this "mentality" didnt reach other companies.

In PoE they sell inventory and bank space, which provides a tangible and sizable benefit in a drop heavy game with a material component, and thus space intensive, means of exchange. There is quite the variety of these on offer compared to most games as well.

So, let us not pretend PoE has no purchasable in game advantages.

Ungood

Konfess said:

The OP had a technical error in punctuation.  What they really meant to write was, "zero P2W, B2P, or P2P?"  What they are talking about is how every Play 4 Free (P4F) gamer feels gaming is meant to be, absolute no cost what so ever.

So the question we are all considering here is, will there ever be a game like XXXX (any game name here) that has no cost to the gamer?

Absolutely.. as soon as we figure out how to build and maintain that game for free.

zaberfangx

Daikuru said:

zaberfangx said:

Daikuru said:

zaberfangx said:

Only way find a MMO with zero p2w or not reaching over is a MMO with no investor backing other the player base. MMO cost to much. Even if someone start up from the ground up people won't play it due to lack of something that a AAA MMO do have then a small MMO don't have.

MMOs are not more expensive to make than other games.

If is a AAA type of MMO it is very expensive to make this day of age.

Every AAA game is expensive to make, MMOs are no exception, but they are not more expensive than other games.

IceAge said:

TheScavenger said:

Phry said:

BDO isn't really all that bad, you can't actually buy the win in BDO, you can't even buy your way to being competitive, the only way to advance in the game is through actual work and a lot of it at that.
As for the other, all Publishers/Developers are a business, they are about making money, some are better at it than others when it comes to how consumer friendly they are, but if there is one thing you can be very sure about is that they all care about the money.

to some people on this forum, they expect a 100% free MMO with no cash shop (not even cosmetics), no monthly fee, no donations, and the best MMO ever in the world...all for free

Yet, the OP has a point .

Sure, he picked the wrong game here lol , since as far as I know, BDO is nowhere near P2W. But in general , yup! MMO's this days are mostly P2W. 

I wonder why this is so, i mean, games like PoE or LoL have shown that you can make F2P games without P2W, seems like this "mentality" didnt reach other companies.

That is true that PoE or LoL show that can make a game with out going p2w their just content gated that don't hurt to many people game play. Problem that is depend how much it cost to maintain the game if the game is not super high money maker for what ever reason. Some Aim to big to keep every mode of the game alive. Still want companies find better ways to main the game with out being p2w when is high cost to main the game. Like can't use the same models that works for LoL may not work for other games if they game needs a bigger team to run it.

Cryomatrix

@KnightFalz

The advantage is more for quality of life than anything else. Also, it is a free game, so other than cosmetics, how else are they supposed to survive.

The most popular purchase in game is the inventory tabs and i am 100% fine with it.

They have to survive, plus, there really is no pvp in the game, so there is really no tangible benefit. PoE has one of the best monetization schemes in gaming.

Cryomatrix