About Action Combat

nerovergil

What so high skill about action combat? (Like black desert online)

When someone suggest tab target 'option' on black desert online, u will see this reply

'git good', nab, world of warcraft miss u, go back to gw2

Aiming doesn't make you better than tab target player.

i know action combat is fun, but it need high concentration. its mind tiring. and for mmorpg that need a lot of grinding, tab target option is crucial.

with tab target option, players can use tab target and auto attack for grinding mobs.

while action combat can be use in pvp for better combat result.

my suggestion of auto attack on black desert online is just like a holding assist. click once to start attack and click again to stop auto attack. 

iixviiiix

About action combat : it's a nightmare for high ping players .

Sovrath

Well, I only like Action combat.

But yes, just because something is "action combat" doesn't mean it's done well enough to be skillful. Just like "just because something is tab target doesn't mean it's done in a way that requires great knowledge of skills, their synergies, and the nuances of a tab target system".

I won't say "go back to wow ... " blah blah blah because that's little kid crap and we have too many little kids playing video games and inflicting themselves on everyone.

But I play Black Desert because of its combat.

Also, adding "tab target" to a game like this just adds another development axis to the game. And it doesn't need it because "not all games need to be made for all people".

I'll also add, just because you think it's mind tiring and you don't like high concentration, doesn't mean everyone thinks the same.

LacedOpium

nerovergil said:

Question:

What so high skill about action combat? (Like black desert online)

Answer:

Action combat is fun but it needs high concentration and its mind tiring (requiring focus, endurance, greater concentration, resiliency etc).  For mmorpg that need a lot of grinding, tab target option is crucial (because it makes it easier and requires less of a skill set).

with tab target option, players can use tab target and auto attack for grinding mobs (see above).

while action combat can be use in pvp for better combat result (more competitive and skill dependent).

See, you knew the answer all along.

Ungood

nerovergil said:

What so high skill about action combat? (Like black desert online)

When someone suggest tab target 'option' on black desert online, u will see this reply

'git good', nab, world of warcraft miss u, go back to gw2

Aiming doesn't make you better than tab target player.

I'm gonna clue you in, Most gamers sucks at play action combat, hence the prevalence of Aim Bots. 

But like any game feature that requires 3rd party software or overlays, the Pro's maintain their edge only because they know that Noobs and Purest won't download what they need to be competitive, and thus will praise that feature as being elite, even if they suck so bad at using they need to depend other programs to combat it.

Now, I like what some games have, and that is assisted action combat, basically, you shoot at what  you are facing, not just into the void. IE: If I am facing another player, I will shoot at them, not into the wall right next to them where my exact mouse pointer was facing.

GW2, uses something like this, so does Trove, to an extent.

Scorchien

I find action combat games easier than tab target games

Kyleran

Sovrath said:

Well, I only like Action combat.

But yes, just because something is "action combat" doesn't mean it's done well enough to be skillful. Just like "just because something is tab target doesn't mean it's done in a way that requires great knowledge of skills, their synergies, and the nuances of a tab target system".

I won't say "go back to wow ... " blah blah blah because that's little kid crap and we have too many little kids playing video games and inflicting themselves on everyone.

But I play Black Desert because of its combat.

Also, adding "tab target" to a game like this just adds another development axis to the game. And it doesn't need it because "not all games need to be made for all people".

I'll also add, just because you think it's mind tiring and you don't like high concentration, doesn't mean everyone thinks the same.

I agree with him,  which is why I don't play such games.

Like you said, not every game is for every player.

CrazKanuk

I don't play many action-based combat MMOs on PC only because I don't have a controller and I find that Action-based combat lends itself to a controller much better (which is why I'm waiting on TERA for PS4). Also, my prime gaming time is done while laying in bed, so tab-targeting or controller are much more manageable than mouse and keyboard. That being said, I still play my PC a lot for games like D3, but not multiplayer for sure. 

Shaigh

After healing in tera it felt next to impossible going back to tab-target healing. Healing felt far more interactive when you had to target people instead of just mousing over icons and hitting abilities.

Loke666

It is just a different way of doing things, some prefer one, some the others and some like both.

The usual problem is more that they havn't really found just the right group mechanics working with it yet so it tends to work best while alone or in small teams.

Then again, no MMO have figured out a good way for massive combat at all (well, possibly Eve but it is a rather different kind of MMO from the rest). I already feel that raiding could be improved if they stopped treating it like a couple of smaller groups working together and made it more about a single large group. The moment you get a certain number of players in a fight everything turns into a brainless zerge.

Tab targetting works best for archers and magic users. Action combat works best for melee classes (in my opinion at least) where selecting target makes less sense, just face an opponent and start attacking.

monochrome19

Its 2018. I wont play an MMO unless it has action combat. Tab targeting feels outdated, slow, and clunky.

Loke666

monochrome19 said:

Its 2018. I wont play an MMO unless it has action combat. Tab targeting feels outdated, slow, and clunky.

Generally I agree with you but I think a lot of that is because most tab targetted games feel like they havn't evolved in a long time. The rest is probably the anger I get when someone is in front of me and I stab my sword through them without any damage whatsoever.

For ranged none AoE combat I don't mind tab targetting a bit though and there are plenty of hybrid games that uses action combat for melee and tab targetting for ranged.

For anything with modern firearms I think FPS combat beats both of them. It is too bad if you have a low ping but I ain't tab targetting something with an M60.

cheyane

I don't need tab targetting at all. I can target on my own fine but having too much movement with dodging and other quick action take a horrible toll on my elbows and hands so I avoid those games.

Kyleran

Loke666 said:

monochrome19 said:

Its 2018. I wont play an MMO unless it has action combat. Tab targeting feels outdated, slow, and clunky.

Generally I agree with you but I think a lot of that is because most tab targetted games feel like they havn't evolved in a long time. The rest is probably the anger I get when someone is in front of me and I stab my sword through them without any damage whatsoever.

For ranged none AoE combat I don't mind tab targetting a bit though and there are plenty of hybrid games that uses action combat for melee and tab targetting for ranged.

For anything with modern firearms I think FPS combat beats both of them. It is too bad if you have a low ping but I ain't tab targetting something with an M60.

Go with the combat shotgun at close range, no need for any sort of targeting.

Mikeha

I love action combat for the huge focus on movement. I do not like having FPS type aiming like TERA does though. Skill should come from knowing how and when to use your skills. Not how good you can aim a cursor on screen. 

Action combat is just more engaging and that's why most like it. 

Loke666

Kyleran said:

Go with the combat shotgun at close range, no need for any sort of targeting.

A gatling wont need much aiming at close range either. Still, with weapons like that you tend to have other weapons that does need aiming, like a sniper rifle for instance.

I could see a system where you get aiming help from your characters rifle skill. With no skill you must aim perfectly, with maxed out skills you could just point in the general direction and still hit the closest enemy.

The interesting thing about a mechanic like that is that a very skilled player with a new character would be on pair with a bad player that have a maxxed out character which would make PvP far more interesting unless you also give the vet a zillion HPs (which is really silly in a game with modern firearms).

The official reason D&D increase your hitpoints is that a very experience character would make it so most blows are glancing. That doesn't really work when a sniper headshots you without you even notice her.

TEKK3N

nerovergil said:

What so high skill about action combat? (Like black desert online)

When someone suggest tab target 'option' on black desert online, u will see this reply

'git good', nab, world of warcraft miss u, go back to gw2

Aiming doesn't make you better than tab target player.

In BDO is not just about the aiming (Tera), it's more about the Combos.
The deal is pulling off a sequence of 3-5 moves to deliver a final blow which causes lots of damage.
I can tell you that it can be very intense, macros works to a certain degree so it's all about your hand skills, a Naga Mouse is highly recommended.
It's not for everyone, in fact very few people do Combos properly and those that do it usually are the best PvPers.

I don't think your idea of dual system is feasible or even necessary.
You can pretty much 2 shot group of mobs in BDO with very little effort, you just need decent gear, plus it is recommended that you actually group when you grind mobs, XP is better.

iixviiiix

TEKK3N said:

nerovergil said:

What so high skill about action combat? (Like black desert online)

When someone suggest tab target 'option' on black desert online, u will see this reply

'git good', nab, world of warcraft miss u, go back to gw2

Aiming doesn't make you better than tab target player.

In BDO is not just about the aiming (Tera), it's more about the Combos.
The deal is pulling off a sequence of 3-5 moves to deliver a final blow which causes lots of damage.
I can tell you that it can be very intense, macros works to a certain degree so it's all about your hand skills, a Naga Mouse is highly recommended.
It's not for everyone, in fact very few people do Combos properly and those that do it usually are the best PvPers.

I don't think your idea of dual system is feasible or even necessary.
You can pretty much 2 shot group of mobs in BDO with very little effort, you just need decent gear, plus it is recommended that you actually group when you grind mobs, XP is better.

This is the problem i have with action combat . For high ping player , action combat like that make it very hard to play .

Most when i think about combo action combat are ping nightmare , macro , mod and cheating .

Those game are design for S.Korea with high speed internet connection , low ping and heavy account control , not suit for global servers or big zone like NA or Euro.

AlBQuirky

I've never played BDO and generally prefer tab targeting over "action" combat. However, I can have fun with action combat and for some games (MMOs included) it just "fits better" in the overall design.

I agree with @Sovrath:

Sovrath said:

 "not all games need to be made for all people".

I just get a little snarky when it seems nearly every new MMO has action combat in some form or another. If I believe we players should have choices, where is my preferred choice for combat in new games?

Sovrath

I agree with @Sovrath:

Sovrath said:

 "not all games need to be made for all people".

I just get a little snarky when it seems nearly every new MMO has action combat in some form or another. If I believe we players should have choices, where is my preferred choice for combat in new games?

True but look at it from a different angle.

This has more to do with technological leaps. It's not like the first games eschewed "action combat" because tab targeting just completely fulfilled their vision of the game!

Also, I've always hated tab target. Even in single player games (as I mentioned above). It would have been pretty ridiculous of me to say "where are my choices??!?!?"

It just wasn't possible.

Now that it's possible and developers see that there is a market for it, they want to do it.

Keep in mind that the only game I am really looking forward to is Pantheon and that's tab target. I know this and I'm of the mind that one must sort of be on board for how a game is. If one isn't then they are doing themselves a disservice and wasting their time and money.

Still doesn't mean I don't like it. But I'm not going to be running to boards and complain.

Darksworm

The problem with Action Combat like BDO is that it doesn't appeal to me, because it doesn't really take skill.  It just makes you learn how to type again, just for this game.  That's the issue I have.  It feels like you have to take a keyboarding class specifically for this game, because of the way the control scheme is designed.  Looking at the gameplay, it's filled with pauses and stutters that just don't appeal to me, anyways.

It looks like one of those old Batman movies, where there was a pause and emote every time they hit someone...

BOOM!  WHAM!  POP!  SMASH!

I think GW2 struck the best balance between Action Combat and Tab Targetting, personally, and is where MMORPGs should be going with their combat systems.

Also the people claiming they've always hated tab targeting...  Yea, sure you have ;-)

EDIT:  And yea, with gaming accessories, you can macro everything anyways...  So, this combat is completely cheesable - to an extent much greater than in Tab-Target games, IMO.

Sovrath

Darksworm said:

The problem with Action Combat like BDO is that it doesn't appeal to me, because it doesn't really take skill.  It just makes you learn how to type again, just for this game.  That's the issue I have.  It feels like you have to take a keyboarding class specifically for this game, because of the way the control scheme is designed.  Looking at the gameplay, it's filled with pauses and stutters that just don't appeal to me, anyways.

It looks like one of those old Batman movies, where there was a pause and emote every time they hit someone...

BOOM!  WHAM!  POP!  SMASH!

I think GW2 struck the best balance between Action Combat and Tab Targetting, personally, and is where MMORPGs should be going with their combat systems.

Also the people claiming they've always hated tab targeting...  Yea, sure you have ;-)

pauses and stutters? Are you sure you played Black Desert?

Darksworm

Sovrath said:

Darksworm said:

The problem with Action Combat like BDO is that it doesn't appeal to me, because it doesn't really take skill.  It just makes you learn how to type again, just for this game.  That's the issue I have.  It feels like you have to take a keyboarding class specifically for this game, because of the way the control scheme is designed.  Looking at the gameplay, it's filled with pauses and stutters that just don't appeal to me, anyways.

It looks like one of those old Batman movies, where there was a pause and emote every time they hit someone...

BOOM!  WHAM!  POP!  SMASH!

I think GW2 struck the best balance between Action Combat and Tab Targetting, personally, and is where MMORPGs should be going with their combat systems.

Also the people claiming they've always hated tab targeting...  Yea, sure you have ;-)

pauses and stutters? Are you sure you played Black Desert?

Yes.  It's probably a bad way to put it into words, but it has something to do with the full screen effects + text popping up on the screen.  That's the visual effect it has to me.

Personally, at the end of the day BDO isn't really the "focus," because it's only one in a bevy of games that have gone in this directon.  I couldn't play it long term because it lacks a PvE end-game, frankly, so it's a non-factor to me.

I stopped even considering Eastern MMORPGs, to be frank.

Theocritus

cheyane said:

I don't need tab targetting at all. I can target on my own fine but having too much movement with dodging and other quick action take a horrible toll on my elbows and hands so I avoid those games.

They dont physically wear me out, I just find them very annoying to have to do all that to fight...I just like to stand toe to toe and decide it...if I have to jump around constantly I wont enjoy the game for very long.

Darksworm

I think that's where the core issue is...

A lot of people confuse "dynamic combat" with "action combat" and a lot of companies make it seem like they are the same (for PR).  Making the game so that you have to pay attention and aren't just turreting from one spot is good.  This is doable with both tab targeting and "FPS-like" combat system.

That's, frankly, exactly what those games are implementing - in an attempt tot leach players from that genre due to the saturation of MMORPGs on the market spreading the core audience thin.

MMOs like ESO (to use another example) are nearly indistinguishable to me from FPS games.  They just require 10x as many buttons to play.  Why should I bother to play that when I can play Destiny II and get better PvE and still play PvP, for example?

And the Dodge fest that is GW2 has seen a lot of criticism from this.  The majority of your surviveability depends on how fast you can dodge, since even trash MOBs do inordinate amounts of HP.  It's literally all the game is about - anticipating and dodging.  They talk about this like it's what end-game gameplay is balanced around on their own website.

In any case, Tab Targetting continues to be more widely accepted by MMORPG players than Action Combat, which is why developers are actually starting to backtrack back to it - even though some of the loud voices on the forums call it "old style."  A lot of the Action Combat FAD has to do with the "appearance" of evolution and the attempts to rope in gamers from other genres to grow the market.

I cannot say that it has been very successful.

Avarix

Darksworm said:

The problem with Action Combat like BDO is that it doesn't appeal to me, because it doesn't really take skill.  It just makes you learn how to type again, just for this game.  That's the issue I have.  It feels like you have to take a keyboarding class specifically for this game, because of the way the control scheme is designed.  Looking at the gameplay, it's filled with pauses and stutters that just don't appeal to me, anyways.

It looks like one of those old Batman movies, where there was a pause and emote every time they hit someone...

BOOM!  WHAM!  POP!  SMASH!

I think GW2 struck the best balance between Action Combat and Tab Targetting, personally, and is where MMORPGs should be going with their combat systems.

Also the people claiming they've always hated tab targeting...  Yea, sure you have ;-)

EDIT:  And yea, with gaming accessories, you can macro everything anyways...  So, this combat is completely cheesable - to an extent much greater than in Tab-Target games, IMO.

GW2 combat is far too spammy for me. Just click whatever is on cooldown most of the time and you'll do fine. Healing is also a joke a decent portion of the time. I can drop all the water fields I want but so much is happening on screen for players that they rarely even see it, let alone interact with it. I can enjoy both action and tab-target but I prefer action combat for short gaming sessions and tab for longer ones. If I truly want something tactical, and relaxing, I prefer turn-based.

However, I flat out prefer the healing style of TERA to WoW. It makes it feel dynamic and fun without the whack-a-mole feeling tab targeting gives me while healing. It makes me feel like I am actually playing the game instead of just playing with the HUD.

I wish games would stop with the either/or functions. MMORPGs are in a unique position that they usually have so many classes that you can do all of this with them. World of Warcraft now has so many healers they have a difficult time differentiating between them. Disc Priest, for instance, still feels clunky and they have been trying to find a style for it for ages. Why not make one or two use a TERA style of healing?