When you only have a limited number of skills to choose from, the choice of what to use next is easy, therefore it doesn't have depth. That is the root of my problems with all action combat games - deciding what to do next is too easy.
That's not really true.
You can have 100 skills and the use of any one of them could be as shallow as shallow can be.
"depth" is just that "depth". Take your 6 skills and each one could very well decide on another few options, each one drilling down or allowing one to revisit a former option.
Probably one of the reasons "go" is so easy and yet so hard.
Maybe even chess. I mean, what are your options but horizontal or vertical with the exception of the knight.
Yet how each piece is positioned and what it supports is where the complexity comes in.
I think one could have great depth with only two or even 3 choices at a time, unraveling other choices as well.
Action combat is about movement, speed, depending on the game "positioning". It could have more depth but in general it's about excitement and speed and reaction.
I agree that limited skills in and of itself does not equal lack of depth. It largely depends upon how the skills are implemented. However, I feel that goes without saying for pretty much any gameplay mechanic.
On the flip side, more skills can absolutely enhance combat depth, as can cooldowns. You can give a class a tide-turning ability on a cooldowns that would otherwise be too powerful for the class to possess. Invuln, flash heals, stuns, interrupts, and instant nukes come to mind. From there, layers get added when you combine these cooldowns with priority or focused targetting. Interrupts might need to be used on a damage dealer to protect your own heals while the nukes and other offensive cooldowns need to be blown on their healer to focus him or her down. Again, it opens things up for strategic use, but it requires intentional implementation.
Or you can give them a heavy penalty in some other form like high energy cost to use, potential vulnerabilities, channeling/charge time, diminishing re-use values, and/or hard counters.
A recharge timer is only one form of inhibitor, and it's a rather simple one when it comes to trying to build any form of depth. It only builds context in the manner of "should I use it now or later" and often just becomes part of a planned rotation that accounts for it's recharge length to basically create spam out of a repeated sequence of skills instead.
More skills "can" enhance depth, but only in so far as variety remains a thing. A game has to have the fundamental features to support a breadth of different skill and effects if having a variety of skills is to hold any meaning, and many titles do not, with a very heavy load of crossover skills that are generally re-flavored basic combat techniques. The warrior just does the same ability with a sword instead of a bow and the effect is orange instead of green.
I agree that limited skills in and of itself does not equal lack of depth. It largely depends upon how the skills are implemented. However, I feel that goes without saying for pretty much any gameplay mechanic.
On the flip side, more skills can absolutely enhance combat depth, as can cooldowns.
While more skills can definitely add "more depth" there is something to be said about simple and elegant. Again I point to "Go". Or even chess for that matter".
Easy to learn and hard to master should be a general rule.
The more that's added is the more that something starts to get too complicated. Or just bloated.
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I agree that limited skills in and of itself does not equal lack of depth. It largely depends upon how the skills are implemented. However, I feel that goes without saying for pretty much any gameplay mechanic.
On the flip side, more skills can absolutely enhance combat depth, as can cooldowns.
While more skills can definitely add "more depth" there is something to be said about simple and elegant. Again I point to "Go". Or even chess for that matter".
Easy to learn and hard to master should be a general rule.
The more that's added is the more that something starts to get too complicated. Or just bloated.
Again, I'm not disagreeing that depth can be achieved with limited skills. However, it does open up additional avenues when you grant players additional skills so long as they serve a useful purpose. My Paladin has an interrupt, a stun, a damage/healing self-buff, a targetted physical protection shield, a self-shield, a flash full heal, a cone AoE damage skill, a self movement buff, and a targetted movement buff, all on cooldowns that prevent them from being spammed. The targetted movement buff cleanses snares, and I also have a DoT cleanse that I can apply to targets. This does not include any active items I pick up (such as legendaries with active effects other than the class legendary weapon everyone uses) or pots, and it is completely in the interest of utility and support in specific situations. Throughout my time in WoW, I've used them all to purpose, either in PvP or PvE.
Then, there's the actual damage rotation that's normally used within combat, that consists of approximately 6-7 skills that work the class mechanic. I can utilize all of those abilities without blocking off my access to other abilities in case I need them in the next moment. These abilities have their own procs and effects that influence the next ability, just as ESO abilities trigger things like Major Brutality. That's why I enjoy a system like WoW's, with the ability to customize my hotbars and have all my skills readily available to meet any challenge on the fly, as opposed to switching between hotbars.
Pots and other active items don't only exist in ESO. WoW has active effect items and pots that can be slotted to hotbars, in addition to having way more skills.
Blocking and light/heavy stuff is unique, but the rest has been and is continually used throughout the genre. Dodging is used less so due to the prevalence of tab targeting.
i think you have this the wrong way around bud...
more and more games are moving away from the tab target system towards more action oriented combat, because it's more fun when done right, if you look at most new mmorpgs coming out, they have a action oriented / hybrid combat style coming out, because more and more of us are finding tab target based games boring now and we want more out of combat in games which are combat centric....
Don't get me wrong, i still see the appeal and play games with tab target combat, but i'd much prefer action based combat.
I don't know why so many complain about 6 abilities per bar. Games are evolving and as a result, gone are the days of having 4 or more hot bars filled with abilities where you only end up using a handful of them anyway. Even the juggernaut wow has been pruning abilities over the last few expansions. Playing whack-a-mole with abilities isn't fun, which is probably why you see games moving away from this.
ESO forces you to put together a 12 skill kit to fit whatever role or play style you choose. GW2 does something very similar, but that system is even more limiting as your equipped weapons decide 5 of your skills per bar.
As far as ability cooldowns go, they really aren't necessary with fixed resource pools. You can't endlessly spam abilities or you will exhaust your stam or mag.
While WoW is pruning skills, I still have in excess of 12 skills on my Paladin that are used regularly in fights.
There's a difference between bloating skills by adding almost completely superfluous skills and adding situational skills that are useful and add layers to combat actions, counters, etc.. There's not a large portion of gamers screaming to have skills added that are only useful once in a blue moon.
it's interesting you say that.. because let's say you're using a retribution paladin
Standard single target rotation - is exactly 6 skills (Judgement, Blade of Justice, Crusader Strike, Crusade, Templar's Verdict and Wake of Ashes)
or Prot Paladin
which all the rotations are made of of 4 base abilities (Judgement, Avengers Shield, Consecration and Hammer of the Righteous or Blessed Hammer (Depending on Talent) and then your defensives
now i draw this comparison because Paladin has a lot more abilities available... but the standard rotation setups are esentially 6 buttons for DPS or 4 for Tank and then you have your situational abilities which basically end up being the same amount as your maximum available in ESO, but somehow eso is worse because of this fact?
Pots and other active items don't only exist in ESO. WoW has active effect items and pots that can be slotted to hotbars, in addition to having way more skills.
Blocking and light/heavy stuff is unique, but the rest has been and is continually used throughout the genre. Dodging is used less so due to the prevalence of tab targeting.
i think you have this the wrong way around bud...
more and more games are moving away from the tab target system towards more action oriented combat, because it's more fun when done right, if you look at most new mmorpgs coming out, they have a action oriented / hybrid combat style coming out, because more and more of us are finding tab target based games boring now and we want more out of combat in games which are combat centric....
Don't get me wrong, i still see the appeal and play games with tab target combat, but i'd much prefer action based combat.
I wasn't arguing regarding trends in targetting systems.
Pots and other active items don't only exist in ESO. WoW has active effect items and pots that can be slotted to hotbars, in addition to having way more skills.
Blocking and light/heavy stuff is unique, but the rest has been and is continually used throughout the genre. Dodging is used less so due to the prevalence of tab targeting.
i think you have this the wrong way around bud...
more and more games are moving away from the tab target system towards more action oriented combat, because it's more fun when done right, if you look at most new mmorpgs coming out, they have a action oriented / hybrid combat style coming out, because more and more of us are finding tab target based games boring now and we want more out of combat in games which are combat centric....
Don't get me wrong, i still see the appeal and play games with tab target combat, but i'd much prefer action based combat.
I wasn't arguing regarding trends in targetting systems.
you said prevalence of tab target, well i mean it essentially existed before MMORPGS, text based muds basically used tab target in their execution of combat even though for the most part it was automatic... combat evolved from tab target into action in the case of MMORPGs which i think is causing tab target to be less common these days... maybe i guess i misunderstood what you were trying to say because the action combat is becoming much more common now.
Pots and other active items don't only exist in ESO. WoW has active effect items and pots that can be slotted to hotbars, in addition to having way more skills.
Blocking and light/heavy stuff is unique, but the rest has been and is continually used throughout the genre. Dodging is used less so due to the prevalence of tab targeting.
i think you have this the wrong way around bud...
more and more games are moving away from the tab target system towards more action oriented combat, because it's more fun when done right, if you look at most new mmorpgs coming out, they have a action oriented / hybrid combat style coming out, because more and more of us are finding tab target based games boring now and we want more out of combat in games which are combat centric....
Don't get me wrong, i still see the appeal and play games with tab target combat, but i'd much prefer action based combat.
I wasn't arguing regarding trends in targetting systems.
you said prevalence of tab target, well i mean it essentially existed before MMORPGS, text based muds basically used tab target in their execution of combat even though for the most part it was automatic... combat evolved from tab target into action in the case of MMORPGs which i think is causing tab target to be less common these days... maybe i guess i misunderstood what you were trying to say because the action combat is becoming much more common now.
It is, but there's still a large stable of tab-target games out there. WoW, FF, EVE, SWTOR, ArcheAge, Rift, just to name a few.
I only pointed it out to illustrate why active dodging isn't included in many MMORPGs.
I love the combat. I love the immersive story lines in each zone. I am having a blast with my warden and with it I am doing the entire game over again. I am in 2 trading guilds and I sell products just fine. I have decorated my primary residence and I am now redoing all the dungeons I have done since the game came out to get the house rewards. I now have an armor look that I like with the new outfit system. I LOVE the bottomless craft bag. This is my favorite MMO that I have played and I have played many of them.
There are gripes I have with the game but they are small and not worth the time to post about.
"I don't give a sh*t what other people say. I play what I like and I'll pay to do it too!" - SerialMMOist
If possible, I'd love to hear some examples of how you think ESO (or any action combat game) has managed to achieve depth in combat.
To mirror your bubble skill comment, I can point out the usage of the bubble skill on the templar class.
For one, there is much ado about timing on bubbles any ways because 1) it does not stack and 2) it has a very short duration and is therefore pointless to spam as you are otherwise eating your mana pool protecting someone when they don't need it just for the off-chance they do.
It's also still a single-target ability, and you can spam it if you want, but you still have to cast it in succession and each casts drains your mana pool which you have to make sure you're geared for preserving otherwise you'll quickly spend it in an oh-shit scenario.
This then goes to the point that you have to choose when to use it as under many circumstances, to use the skill or to even repeatedly use it in a desperate moment, is not the best choice. Bubbling the lowest person so that they can backpedal to recover, and letting others enact their own possible evasion or protective skills while you drop an aoe heal to aid them ends up help preserving the group much more efficiently and can mean the difference between struggling to keep your pool up enough to keep protecting the group and wiping because you're depleted and everyone is dying.
It's a bit of a disconnect to dismiss something as a "reactive" feature of one system too while your usage of another skill, especially in the scenario you gave, is similarly reactive. You are putting a variety of considerations behind the decisions under both scenarios, unless the combat in LOTRO is lethargic, then you aren't going to have time to ponder a full suite of pros and cons to using that ability in the moment either, that will be a decision you've already mentally made up at some point.
Also brings about another note again that much of this also hinges on how the pacing works for a game. If combat is drawn out enough that you can use skills that last in the tens and can ponder whether or not you want to use a skill now or later, then what depth is there to be had with the consideration that in that same time you could be already using an instant-heal or interrupt ability or even just doubling-down on the damage? The abilities themselves have to all be intentionally paced slower along with the combat itself for such a scenario to work, otherwise there's a slough of possible skills that would bypass the intended depth that the other skills were supposed to introduce. That's not more depth, that's just slower.
Your skill count breakdown kind of highlights what I meant by having a weird interpretation too. Those skills that are inherent to the combat system all have their own value and strategic/contextual usage. Like blocking versus dodging. Dodging quickly winds your character, and blocking will as well when you turtle up, it's a trade-off to your ability to protect yourself or another versus your ability to maintain damage or other skill output. Moreover those skills have secondary values with their interrupt, guard break, or energy regen abilities. You have to know when to use general attacks to build up some power so that you can turn around and do a quick chain of attacks.
And it's nice to say I prefer having X number skills that are all unique, but as I pointed out previously games do not run in infinite variables and most skills are permutations of each-other. How those skills vary tends to get rather trivial at a point, no matter how contextually valuable you may consider them. Especially if a core skill set can operate effectively without them.
This was a big complaint I had with Secret World when it came out. People made much ado about it's skill system, but that game ultimately ran off a handful of status modifiers and there was a lot of crossover in skills as a result. The actual depth of the game boiled down to a dolled up rock paper scissors. That isn't necessarily bad, but it is not nearly as deep as it was often espoused to be either.
I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree.
Everything you just explained about the templars bubble skill shows it to be shallower than the bubble skill in LotRO, but you're claiming it is just as deep.
So, I think we just have a different understanding of depth.
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I don't know why so many complain about 6 abilities per bar. Games are evolving and as a result, gone are the days of having 4 or more hot bars filled with abilities where you only end up using a handful of them anyway. Even the juggernaut wow has been pruning abilities over the last few expansions. Playing whack-a-mole with abilities isn't fun, which is probably why you see games moving away from this.
ESO forces you to put together a 12 skill kit to fit whatever role or play style you choose. GW2 does something very similar, but that system is even more limiting as your equipped weapons decide 5 of your skills per bar.
As far as ability cooldowns go, they really aren't necessary with fixed resource pools. You can't endlessly spam abilities or you will exhaust your stam or mag.
While WoW is pruning skills, I still have in excess of 12 skills on my Paladin that are used regularly in fights.
There's a difference between bloating skills by adding almost completely superfluous skills and adding situational skills that are useful and add layers to combat actions, counters, etc.. There's not a large portion of gamers screaming to have skills added that are only useful once in a blue moon.
it's interesting you say that.. because let's say you're using a retribution paladin
Standard single target rotation - is exactly 6 skills (Judgement, Blade of Justice, Crusader Strike, Crusade, Templar's Verdict and Wake of Ashes)
or Prot Paladin
which all the rotations are made of of 4 base abilities (Judgement, Avengers Shield, Consecration and Hammer of the Righteous or Blessed Hammer (Depending on Talent) and then your defensives
now i draw this comparison because Paladin has a lot more abilities available... but the standard rotation setups are esentially 6 buttons for DPS or 4 for Tank and then you have your situational abilities which basically end up being the same amount as your maximum available in ESO, but somehow eso is worse because of this fact?
Not including the cooldowns items and attempting to equate the skills is, again, simply disgenuous in an attempt to equate the two.
If you, as a Ret Paladin, simply spam your combat rotations, you fail as a Ret Paladin. Same for Prot.
I think you've missed the point about why I want changes to be made.
The key word is depth.
Depth is a measure of the number of meaningful choices you have to make. For a choice to be meaningful, it has to be difficult to make AND have an effect on the outcome of the battle.
In a game like ESO, with only 6 active skills (but, we can call it 14 if you include both bars and mouse attacks) and no cooldowns on the majority of skills, there is no depth. First, the choice of what skill to use next is very easy. With such a limited choice available to you, it is really very easy to select what to use next. Second, with no cooldown, even if you select the wrong skill it doesn't matter, you can just select the right one almost immediately afterwards, so your choice of skill has no impact.
So, ESO is just very, very shallow in combat. You basically just follow your very easy rotation, react with a block or dodge if needed, and pop your emergency skill as needed. No thought process needed. No intellectual engagement. Boredom.
Now, with all the choices of weapons / armour etc, ESO does have depth in the meta game. I'm not disputing that, there are some really key decisions that you need to make to optimise your character and that is great. But, because the depth is in the meta-game, you can just look up the information online and take your time.
My suggestions of a MINIMUM of 15-20 skills was excluding the mouse attacks. But, you have to combine those skills with a valid purpose. In my ideal game, I would have:
10 solo standard abilities - these form your rotation 10 solo situational abilities - things like emergency heals, proc abilities etc 10 group standard abilities - things like building aggro, transferring aggro, healing others, buffing others 10 group situational abilities
The goal with this sort of ability design is to ensure that players are making meaningful decisions in combat and not just spamming a rotation. For example, a stun ability would fall into the solo situational category. A 30s stun on a 5minute cooldown. Using that ability requires you to engage with the fight. If you pop the stun at the wrong time, your DoT might wake up the mob. If you need to use that 30s to heal, then timing the stun with other healing/pot cooldowns is essential. In a group setting, you need to ensure what you're stunning won't be woken up by AoE. It is the 5minute cooldown that adds the depth here, as without the cooldown it doens't matter if you get it wrong, you can just use the skill again.
It is also worth pointing out that without the valid purpose to skills, you just have skill bloat and instead of adding depth, you are only adding complexity. Complexity by itself is pretty pointless, it may take you time to learn to execute a really long rotation but there is no decision making involved.
SW:TOR is a perfect example of a tab-target game that got it wrong. Each class had tons of skills but the combat was still really shallow. Rotations were quite long (think one of my shadow's builds had a 16 skill rotation...) but the game offered nothing beyond rotations. Each class had maybe 2-4 situational abilities but that was it, so in combat you only had to choose between your rotation or those situationals. Making a choice between 4 or 5 options.....pretty fucking easy.
As mentioned though, I don't expect ESO to change to suit me. It was designed as a mass market MMO and was designed to work on consoles, so the combat has to be easy and shallow to please the target audience. If they added the depth I require, it would be too difficult for the target audience.
I would also like a few more skills, something like GW2 where there are several auxiliary skills apart from your weapon swaps. However, I can't agree with you that ESO's combat is shallow, at least from a pvp perspective: its probably one of the hardest to master and most skill based systems I have played.
There are a couple of angles to look at this from, but first lets consider group play. I spend most of my time in ESO playing in organized groups of between 2 to 24 people. As the groups get bigger it gives more room to use specialized builds. For example when my group is at 12 or more I might run something that is pure support/cc like this:
If you watch some of that from about 18:35 you'll see that the guy is just disrupting and ccing the enemy, letting his dps and healers do their jobs. Also notice there is no "rotation" as such, its all about movement, positioning, landing ultimates (long cd skills) at the right time, managing resources, and coordination.
He may be only using a limited skill set compared to what's available in some games, but he is bringing a key set of skills to his group that set them up for victory, at the expense of doing any damage or healing. In my view that is incredibly engaging and tactical gameplay, on a level that I rarely experience in other games.
Narrowing down the focus to smaller scale situations, you might find there is a kind of "rotation" involved; for example a debuff, stun, burst skill, spam execute when enemy is at low health. However, your idea that "it doesn't matter if you hit the wrong skill" is off. There is a heavy price to be paid for hitting the wrong skill or missing, or needlessly spamming your skills. That could be something obvious like not hitting your shield or heal when at low health, causing you to die (remember that although there is no CD on most skills you usually have to wait for animations and lag), but more generally, losing the battle of resources. Once your resources (stam/magikca) are out you have pretty much lost. You have to think carefully about what you are going to cast, when to cast it, and where to move, while at the same time trying to anticipate what the enemy is going to do.
I have become accustomed to populating my 2nd skill bar with a couple of attacks unique to the weapon being used and then buffs that translate to both. This works well with say a Nightblade using a bow and dual-wield on a 2nd bar but is less attractive if you want to go the route of more magicka-focused abilities when you primary weapons are stamina-use. I would like to see a "selectable" option for ultimates. I find myself using fewer options here, as it is just too cumbersome to swap out ultimates. My Nightblade is a werewolf so more often than not, I have that slotted, as I look to level that line up whenever possible if for no other reason than healing myself.
My Sorcerer carries a bunch of DOTs and AOEs on one bar then primary attacks on the other. Both weapons are staves.
Switching between the 2 isn't much of a chore. If the game was tab-targeted, I might be looking for more abilities but as others have said, many attacks I use now are focused on debilitating the mob then bringing the pain. My heavy attacks replenish power pools or I'm blocking/interrupting between that.
I have switched to using a controller whether playing on PC or by XBox. I just prefer it for movement if nothing else.
All in all, I'm happy with the game. I was very disappointed at launch but they have come a long way since then.
I returned to the game 2 weeks ago, playing semi casual..
Played trough part of the vvardenfell campaign first
Then went to daggerfall, doing the main game quest line..
Somehow, the combat feels much much better then at release
A high end system and a good connection prevent me from lagging at all
And as people pointed out, there is quite some depth in the combat system
Player skill is part of the combat, more then in most other mmo’s.
The game now feels really like an RPG crossed with an MMO
I like the feeling and all the content, combined with the freedom of character building
Even at max level there are quite a lot of things to still progress in..
In the end, combat is okay, still hope that one day they will make the combat bar 8 skills+2 ultimates long..
It would add a huge amount more depth to the combat..
Espescially if they will keep adding new skilltrees, like they are doing with the upcomming expansion
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree.
Everything you just explained about the templars bubble skill shows it to be shallower than the bubble skill in LotRO, but you're claiming it is just as deep.
So, I think we just have a different understanding of depth.
Would likely be why I noted you seemed to have a weird and somewhat narrow perception of what factors into depth. Like I told Frenchie before, coooldowns are only one, and a rather blunt one at that, of a variety of features that can affect strategic elements. It's itself nothing but a binary brute-force method of trying to attain depth at the cost of pacing. Utilizing other factors like high energy cost to use, potential vulnerabilities, channeling/charge time, diminishing re-use values, and/or hard counters are all things that ESO implements instead that have direct factors on the strategic choice of how to use a skill and when.
I gave just as many factors that affect the choice of how and when one should choose to utilize that skill, but you prefer to consider it as shallower still.
I don't know why so many complain about 6 abilities per bar. Games are evolving and as a result, gone are the days of having 4 or more hot bars filled with abilities where you only end up using a handful of them anyway. Even the juggernaut wow has been pruning abilities over the last few expansions. Playing whack-a-mole with abilities isn't fun, which is probably why you see games moving away from this.
ESO forces you to put together a 12 skill kit to fit whatever role or play style you choose. GW2 does something very similar, but that system is even more limiting as your equipped weapons decide 5 of your skills per bar.
As far as ability cooldowns go, they really aren't necessary with fixed resource pools. You can't endlessly spam abilities or you will exhaust your stam or mag.
While WoW is pruning skills, I still have in excess of 12 skills on my Paladin that are used regularly in fights.
There's a difference between bloating skills by adding almost completely superfluous skills and adding situational skills that are useful and add layers to combat actions, counters, etc.. There's not a large portion of gamers screaming to have skills added that are only useful once in a blue moon.
it's interesting you say that.. because let's say you're using a retribution paladin
Standard single target rotation - is exactly 6 skills (Judgement, Blade of Justice, Crusader Strike, Crusade, Templar's Verdict and Wake of Ashes)
or Prot Paladin
which all the rotations are made of of 4 base abilities (Judgement, Avengers Shield, Consecration and Hammer of the Righteous or Blessed Hammer (Depending on Talent) and then your defensives
now i draw this comparison because Paladin has a lot more abilities available... but the standard rotation setups are esentially 6 buttons for DPS or 4 for Tank and then you have your situational abilities which basically end up being the same amount as your maximum available in ESO, but somehow eso is worse because of this fact?
Not including the cooldowns items and attempting to equate the skills is, again, simply disgenuous in an attempt to equate the two.
If you, as a Ret Paladin, simply spam your combat rotations, you fail as a Ret Paladin. Same for Prot.
Think his point rather was that with as many skills as can be espoused as a virtue for the Pally to have, many of them are superfluous to victory conditions.
While it's not a paladin-specific term, there's a reason "spin to win" is even a phrase, as ultimately many system's game depth can and has been broken by poor implementation of skills and/or exploits the players discover.
Beyond that, it's a rare case where anyone is likely to require more than a handful of skills during any given fight, and more so there is the realization that many skills are less of a contextual matter and more-so simply of swapping rotations pending a different mob type.
When it's a very rotation based system, depth is an increasingly distant factor.
Even to include items, you just cycle back into the repetition of the point previously made that there is a separate dedicated 8-slot button for it in ESO. And it's been explained where and how cooldowns factor into depth(or not) previously.
I don't know why so many complain about 6 abilities per bar. Games are evolving and as a result, gone are the days of having 4 or more hot bars filled with abilities where you only end up using a handful of them anyway. Even the juggernaut wow has been pruning abilities over the last few expansions. Playing whack-a-mole with abilities isn't fun, which is probably why you see games moving away from this.
ESO forces you to put together a 12 skill kit to fit whatever role or play style you choose. GW2 does something very similar, but that system is even more limiting as your equipped weapons decide 5 of your skills per bar.
As far as ability cooldowns go, they really aren't necessary with fixed resource pools. You can't endlessly spam abilities or you will exhaust your stam or mag.
While WoW is pruning skills, I still have in excess of 12 skills on my Paladin that are used regularly in fights.
There's a difference between bloating skills by adding almost completely superfluous skills and adding situational skills that are useful and add layers to combat actions, counters, etc.. There's not a large portion of gamers screaming to have skills added that are only useful once in a blue moon.
it's interesting you say that.. because let's say you're using a retribution paladin
Standard single target rotation - is exactly 6 skills (Judgement, Blade of Justice, Crusader Strike, Crusade, Templar's Verdict and Wake of Ashes)
or Prot Paladin
which all the rotations are made of of 4 base abilities (Judgement, Avengers Shield, Consecration and Hammer of the Righteous or Blessed Hammer (Depending on Talent) and then your defensives
now i draw this comparison because Paladin has a lot more abilities available... but the standard rotation setups are esentially 6 buttons for DPS or 4 for Tank and then you have your situational abilities which basically end up being the same amount as your maximum available in ESO, but somehow eso is worse because of this fact?
Not including the cooldowns items and attempting to equate the skills is, again, simply disgenuous in an attempt to equate the two.
If you, as a Ret Paladin, simply spam your combat rotations, you fail as a Ret Paladin. Same for Prot.
Think his point rather was that with as many skills as can be espoused as a virtue for the Pally to have, many of them are superfluous to it relates to victory conditions.
While it's not a paladin-specific term, there's a reason "spin to win" is even a phrase, as ultimately many system's game depth can and has been broken by poor implementation of skills and/or exploits the players discover.
Beyond that, it's a rare case where anyone is likely to require more than a handful of skills during any given fight, and more so there is the realization that many skills are less of a contextual matter and more-so simply of swapping rotations pending a different mob type.
When it's a very rotation based system, depth is an increasingly distant factor.
It's not as rotation based as you make it seem.
You're ignoring the proc mechanics, which alter which ability is best used next in the rotation.
Every game will have an optimal "rotation" that, barring specific situations, will be most optimal. Depth of combat isn't destroyed by such rotations, it can be enhanced by mechanices like the proc effects that change the rotation and utility skills I've mentioned that are, many times, used in very time-sensitive manners, specifically in PvP.
Nothing about adding cooldowns skills or extra skills, in and of itself, destroys depth. Indeed, if it is intentionally used, it can increase it
Not really, you are still talking about depth on a very binary level there. Procs only create a conditional "will I use this or that rotation" instead of "i will spam this rotation".
That's painfully shallow as far as depth is concerned.
EDIT: And you kind of just repeated an argument that already had a previous response.
"Or you can give them a heavy penalty in some other form like high energy cost to use, potential vulnerabilities, channeling/charge time, diminishing re-use values, and/or hard counters.
A recharge timer is only one form of inhibitor, and it's a rather simple one when it comes to trying to build any form of depth. It only builds context in the manner of "should I use it now or later" and often just becomes part of a planned rotation that accounts for it's recharge length to basically create spam out of a repeated sequence of skills instead.
More skills "can" enhance depth, but only in so far as variety remains a thing. A game has to have the fundamental features to support a breadth of different skill and effects if having a variety of skills is to hold any meaning, and many titles do not, with a very heavy load of crossover skills that are generally re-flavored basic combat techniques. The warrior just does the same ability with a sword instead of a bow and the effect is orange instead of green."
Not really, you are still talking about depth on a very binary level there. Procs only create a conditional "will I use this or that rotation" instead of "i will spam this rotation".
That's painfully shallow as far as depth is concerned.
EDIT: And you kind of just repeated an argument that already had a previous response.
"Or you can give them a heavy penalty in some other form like high energy cost to use, potential vulnerabilities, channeling/charge time, diminishing re-use values, and/or hard counters.
A recharge timer is only one form of inhibitor, and it's a rather simple one when it comes to trying to build any form of depth. It only builds context in the manner of "should I use it now or later" and often just becomes part of a planned rotation that accounts for it's recharge length to basically create spam out of a repeated sequence of skills instead.
More skills "can" enhance depth, but only in so far as variety remains a thing. A game has to have the fundamental features to support a breadth of different skill and effects if having a variety of skills is to hold any meaning, and many titles do not, with a very heavy load of crossover skills that are generally re-flavored basic combat techniques. The warrior just does the same ability with a sword instead of a bow and the effect is orange instead of green."
Nothing about cooldowns makes it inherently shallower. That's just your bias showing through.
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Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Not really, you are still talking about depth on a very binary level there. Procs only create a conditional "will I use this or that rotation" instead of "i will spam this rotation".
That's painfully shallow as far as depth is concerned.
EDIT: And you kind of just repeated an argument that already had a previous response.
"Or you can give them a heavy penalty in some other form like high energy cost to use, potential vulnerabilities, channeling/charge time, diminishing re-use values, and/or hard counters.
A recharge timer is only one form of inhibitor, and it's a rather simple one when it comes to trying to build any form of depth. It only builds context in the manner of "should I use it now or later" and often just becomes part of a planned rotation that accounts for it's recharge length to basically create spam out of a repeated sequence of skills instead.
More skills "can" enhance depth, but only in so far as variety remains a thing. A game has to have the fundamental features to support a breadth of different skill and effects if having a variety of skills is to hold any meaning, and many titles do not, with a very heavy load of crossover skills that are generally re-flavored basic combat techniques. The warrior just does the same ability with a sword instead of a bow and the effect is orange instead of green."
Nothing about cooldowns makes it inherently shallower. That's just your bias showing through.
That...fails to even relate to what I actually wrote there...
Seems more so your bias is getting in the way at the moment.
Not really, you are still talking about depth on a very binary level there. Procs only create a conditional "will I use this or that rotation" instead of "i will spam this rotation".
That's painfully shallow as far as depth is concerned.
EDIT: And you kind of just repeated an argument that already had a previous response.
"Or you can give them a heavy penalty in some other form like high energy cost to use, potential vulnerabilities, channeling/charge time, diminishing re-use values, and/or hard counters.
A recharge timer is only one form of inhibitor, and it's a rather simple one when it comes to trying to build any form of depth. It only builds context in the manner of "should I use it now or later" and often just becomes part of a planned rotation that accounts for it's recharge length to basically create spam out of a repeated sequence of skills instead.
More skills "can" enhance depth, but only in so far as variety remains a thing. A game has to have the fundamental features to support a breadth of different skill and effects if having a variety of skills is to hold any meaning, and many titles do not, with a very heavy load of crossover skills that are generally re-flavored basic combat techniques. The warrior just does the same ability with a sword instead of a bow and the effect is orange instead of green."
Nothing about cooldowns makes it inherently shallower. That's just your bias showing through.
That...fails to even relate to what I actually wrote there...
Seems more so your bias is getting in the way at the moment.
It does, re-read your paragraph about cooldowns.
Quit implying shit if you aren't willing to own up to the implication when called out.
When I have BDO, it makes a game with combat like ESO look like garbage by comparison. Animation canceling to me isn't the issue. Many games have it, including BDO, but ESO's combat to me feels terribly clunky and when fighting in PvP or PvE skills feel like they have little to no impact on the opponents you face.
Because none of it is actually real-time functions. Eso has the unfortunate condition of being a tab-target and calculation based game disguised as an action game. They've made it work in many ways, but there will always be a disconnect between the visual actions of the character and NPCs and what the game and player is actually doing.
It actually is part of the reason animation canceling is so much of a problem in this game because animations ironically are the cooldown mechanic others claim doesn't exist.
Because the damage is calculated before the animation plays out though, and the ability to interrupt the animations exists, people are able to bypass the intended delay period to spam abilities.
Because the animations themselves are not tethered to any hit detection functions like BDO or other titles that have more complex and action-gameplay specific design, it leaves ESO in a lackluster situation there.
They've done the best they can with what they built, but there's some hard barriers for implementation that were not anticipated on development of the engine and gameplay features.
Not really, you are still talking about depth on a very binary level there. Procs only create a conditional "will I use this or that rotation" instead of "i will spam this rotation".
That's painfully shallow as far as depth is concerned.
EDIT: And you kind of just repeated an argument that already had a previous response.
"Or you can give them a heavy penalty in some other form like high energy cost to use, potential vulnerabilities, channeling/charge time, diminishing re-use values, and/or hard counters.
A recharge timer is only one form of inhibitor, and it's a rather simple one when it comes to trying to build any form of depth. It only builds context in the manner of "should I use it now or later" and often just becomes part of a planned rotation that accounts for it's recharge length to basically create spam out of a repeated sequence of skills instead.
More skills "can" enhance depth, but only in so far as variety remains a thing. A game has to have the fundamental features to support a breadth of different skill and effects if having a variety of skills is to hold any meaning, and many titles do not, with a very heavy load of crossover skills that are generally re-flavored basic combat techniques. The warrior just does the same ability with a sword instead of a bow and the effect is orange instead of green."
Nothing about cooldowns makes it inherently shallower. That's just your bias showing through.
That...fails to even relate to what I actually wrote there...
Seems more so your bias is getting in the way at the moment.
It does, re-read your paragraph about cooldowns.
Quit implying shit if you aren't willing to own up to the implication when called out.
I would refer you to re-read it rather. In that paragraph you can see I mention it has a negligible impact on depth, not a negative one.
Please don't make up crap for your own agenda, especially when it so blatantly defies reality.
Comments
A recharge timer is only one form of inhibitor, and it's a rather simple one when it comes to trying to build any form of depth. It only builds context in the manner of "should I use it now or later" and often just becomes part of a planned rotation that accounts for it's recharge length to basically create spam out of a repeated sequence of skills instead.
More skills "can" enhance depth, but only in so far as variety remains a thing. A game has to have the fundamental features to support a breadth of different skill and effects if having a variety of skills is to hold any meaning, and many titles do not, with a very heavy load of crossover skills that are generally re-flavored basic combat techniques. The warrior just does the same ability with a sword instead of a bow and the effect is orange instead of green.
Easy to learn and hard to master should be a general rule.
The more that's added is the more that something starts to get too complicated. Or just bloated.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Then, there's the actual damage rotation that's normally used within combat, that consists of approximately 6-7 skills that work the class mechanic. I can utilize all of those abilities without blocking off my access to other abilities in case I need them in the next moment. These abilities have their own procs and effects that influence the next ability, just as ESO abilities trigger things like Major Brutality. That's why I enjoy a system like WoW's, with the ability to customize my hotbars and have all my skills readily available to meet any challenge on the fly, as opposed to switching between hotbars.
more and more games are moving away from the tab target system towards more action oriented combat, because it's more fun when done right, if you look at most new mmorpgs coming out, they have a action oriented / hybrid combat style coming out, because more and more of us are finding tab target based games boring now and we want more out of combat in games which are combat centric....
Don't get me wrong, i still see the appeal and play games with tab target combat, but i'd much prefer action based combat.
Standard single target rotation - is exactly 6 skills (Judgement, Blade of Justice, Crusader Strike, Crusade, Templar's Verdict and Wake of Ashes)
or Prot Paladin
which all the rotations are made of of 4 base abilities (Judgement, Avengers Shield, Consecration and Hammer of the Righteous or Blessed Hammer (Depending on Talent) and then your defensives
now i draw this comparison because Paladin has a lot more abilities available... but the standard rotation setups are esentially 6 buttons for DPS or 4 for Tank and then you have your situational abilities which basically end up being the same amount as your maximum available in ESO, but somehow eso is worse because of this fact?
I only pointed it out to illustrate why active dodging isn't included in many MMORPGs.
There are gripes I have with the game but they are small and not worth the time to post about.
"I don't give a sh*t what other people say. I play what I like and I'll pay to do it too!" - SerialMMOist
Everything you just explained about the templars bubble skill shows it to be shallower than the bubble skill in LotRO, but you're claiming it is just as deep.
So, I think we just have a different understanding of depth.
If you, as a Ret Paladin, simply spam your combat rotations, you fail as a Ret Paladin. Same for Prot.
There are a couple of angles to look at this from, but first lets consider group play. I spend most of my time in ESO playing in organized groups of between 2 to 24 people. As the groups get bigger it gives more room to use specialized builds. For example when my group is at 12 or more I might run something that is pure support/cc like this:
If you watch some of that from about 18:35 you'll see that the guy is just disrupting and ccing the enemy, letting his dps and healers do their jobs. Also notice there is no "rotation" as such, its all about movement, positioning, landing ultimates (long cd skills) at the right time, managing resources, and coordination.
He may be only using a limited skill set compared to what's available in some games, but he is bringing a key set of skills to his group that set them up for victory, at the expense of doing any damage or healing. In my view that is incredibly engaging and tactical gameplay, on a level that I rarely experience in other games.
Narrowing down the focus to smaller scale situations, you might find there is a kind of "rotation" involved; for example a debuff, stun, burst skill, spam execute when enemy is at low health. However, your idea that "it doesn't matter if you hit the wrong skill" is off. There is a heavy price to be paid for hitting the wrong skill or missing, or needlessly spamming your skills. That could be something obvious like not hitting your shield or heal when at low health, causing you to die (remember that although there is no CD on most skills you usually have to wait for animations and lag), but more generally, losing the battle of resources. Once your resources (stam/magikca) are out you have pretty much lost. You have to think carefully about what you are going to cast, when to cast it, and where to move, while at the same time trying to anticipate what the enemy is going to do.
My Sorcerer carries a bunch of DOTs and AOEs on one bar then primary attacks on the other. Both weapons are staves. Switching between the 2 isn't much of a chore. If the game was tab-targeted, I might be looking for more abilities but as others have said, many attacks I use now are focused on debilitating the mob then bringing the pain. My heavy attacks replenish power pools or I'm blocking/interrupting between that. I have switched to using a controller whether playing on PC or by XBox. I just prefer it for movement if nothing else. All in all, I'm happy with the game. I was very disappointed at launch but they have come a long way since then.
Seaspite
Playing ESO on my X-Box
Played trough part of the vvardenfell campaign first
Then went to daggerfall, doing the main game quest line..
Somehow, the combat feels much much better then at release
A high end system and a good connection prevent me from lagging at all
And as people pointed out, there is quite some depth in the combat system
Player skill is part of the combat, more then in most other mmo’s.
The game now feels really like an RPG crossed with an MMO
I like the feeling and all the content, combined with the freedom of character building
Even at max level there are quite a lot of things to still progress in..
In the end, combat is okay, still hope that one day they will make the combat bar 8 skills+2 ultimates long..
It would add a huge amount more depth to the combat..
Espescially if they will keep adding new skilltrees, like they are doing with the upcomming expansion
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I gave just as many factors that affect the choice of how and when one should choose to utilize that skill, but you prefer to consider it as shallower still.
There's definitely an impasse.
While it's not a paladin-specific term, there's a reason "spin to win" is even a phrase, as ultimately many system's game depth can and has been broken by poor implementation of skills and/or exploits the players discover.
Beyond that, it's a rare case where anyone is likely to require more than a handful of skills during any given fight, and more so there is the realization that many skills are less of a contextual matter and more-so simply of swapping rotations pending a different mob type.
When it's a very rotation based system, depth is an increasingly distant factor.
Even to include items, you just cycle back into the repetition of the point previously made that there is a separate dedicated 8-slot button for it in ESO. And it's been explained where and how cooldowns factor into depth(or not) previously.
You're ignoring the proc mechanics, which alter which ability is best used next in the rotation.
Every game will have an optimal "rotation" that, barring specific situations, will be most optimal. Depth of combat isn't destroyed by such rotations, it can be enhanced by mechanices like the proc effects that change the rotation and utility skills I've mentioned that are, many times, used in very time-sensitive manners, specifically in PvP.
Nothing about adding cooldowns skills or extra skills, in and of itself, destroys depth. Indeed, if it is intentionally used, it can increase it
That's painfully shallow as far as depth is concerned.
EDIT: And you kind of just repeated an argument that already had a previous response.
"Or you can give them a heavy penalty in some other form like high energy cost to use, potential vulnerabilities, channeling/charge time, diminishing re-use values, and/or hard counters.
A recharge timer is only one form of inhibitor, and it's a rather simple one when it comes to trying to build any form of depth. It only builds context in the manner of "should I use it now or later" and often just becomes part of a planned rotation that accounts for it's recharge length to basically create spam out of a repeated sequence of skills instead.
More skills "can" enhance depth, but only in so far as variety remains a thing. A game has to have the fundamental features to support a breadth of different skill and effects if having a variety of skills is to hold any meaning, and many titles do not, with a very heavy load of crossover skills that are generally re-flavored basic combat techniques. The warrior just does the same ability with a sword instead of a bow and the effect is orange instead of green."
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Seems more so your bias is getting in the way at the moment.
Quit implying shit if you aren't willing to own up to the implication when called out.
It actually is part of the reason animation canceling is so much of a problem in this game because animations ironically are the cooldown mechanic others claim doesn't exist.
Because the damage is calculated before the animation plays out though, and the ability to interrupt the animations exists, people are able to bypass the intended delay period to spam abilities.
Because the animations themselves are not tethered to any hit detection functions like BDO or other titles that have more complex and action-gameplay specific design, it leaves ESO in a lackluster situation there.
They've done the best they can with what they built, but there's some hard barriers for implementation that were not anticipated on development of the engine and gameplay features.
Please don't make up crap for your own agenda, especially when it so blatantly defies reality.