We have every kind of combat available to play in the high fantasy realm, if ESO isn't for you, it isn't for you. Why drag this thread out any further ?
Original point of the thread, as per the article it's associated with, was over what mechanical features and flaws exist in ESO's combat system.
Would be nice if that's what the conversation was about as ESO is a good learning experience on how certain design choices have really hampered the system regardless of if one enjoys it or not.
Instead it seems to be a crusade over one's favorite game features.
no, it is your crusade to try to be right . ESO is designed as it it designed. Let me show you why :
1. the word "flaw" out side of industrial schematics and to spec as in, the bolt is flaws because it has a crack. // Your usage of flaw is "I don't like the combat , so there for it s flawed" // 100% opinionated and it should stand as such with out debate.
2. THe article insists that ESO has problems, through the authors own "opinion" // again opinion is a singular aspect of a position , which many could have, but alas it is still just a singular opinion.
3. Trying to argue / debate with madfrenchie // you might as well get a horse and sword and head south, cause that is a crusade in its own right // good luck.
4. I love ESO's combat. // that in turn makes the article and your own personal opinion "flawed"
That is rather a steep misunderstanding of my meaning there.
There are flaws in the system on an objective mechanical/functional level. Some of those flaws you can regard as exploits.
I actually made a post early on regarding the game's development cycle that lead to some of the flaws I have talked about, things that are inherent to the game's engine at this point.
I try to keep from espousing my own opinion about a title in these kind of things for a reason.
You repeated the same mistake again here by assuming very specific functions being attached to the resource mechanic to make it perform like a cooldown.
Consumables aren't coold owns, they're single-use items(a resource) that you do have a factor of having to account for timing on use, but that's the sticking point.
Not all things that have to do with managing your timing is itself a "cool down". A cool down is itself the mechanic where there is an expressly enforced time delay before you can re-use something.
With that point, there is no inherently necessary "cooldown regen period" in a resource system so long as the implementation of the system allows a player to budget themselves accordingly. Hell, even your Rift example shows a broken version of this where "running out of mana is never a concern".
Point is, you are continuing to conflate many things to a rather severe degree. You've called two different things at this point cooldowns now even though they aren't, in some zealous effort to defend a mechanic from being rather shallow.
That you use Overwatch as an example there is exemplary of this as well because Overwatch is not itself a deep game on bot the action or meta sense. It's a very approachable and casual game mechanically, which makes it's more shallow depth part of the very reason for it's popularity.
Hell, you even used an example of a conditional trigger again as if that was itself the cooldown effect. That example falls right back into the same thing I already quoted to you multiple times over now about how other similar mechanics can be used to create the same form of depth.
<sigh> Wow. I've never seen someone so duly concerned with their own opinion that they literally cannot fathom how anyone could take it for anything less than absolute truth. But yet, here you are.
Yea buddy, that Genji skill would work just fine without a cooldown. Give him a resource meter instead, yea! Then, if he misses it drains the meter! In the end, you're just approaching the same attempt at depth a different way. Giving him a resource meter would do little to impart more depth. Tracer actually has an ability that recharges constantly and builds charges, which is directly analogous to a resource pool that passively regenerates constantly. Without the time needed to regen charges, (the cooldown of the ability, whether your high and mighty ass can admit it or not), it doesn't work. Both of these characters could've used "ammo" they had to manually reload, charges that passively regenerate, or direct cooldowns. All are aimed at the same goal: imparting depth by creating more impactful, thoughtful decisions within the player during combat that result in more impactful, thoughtful actions in the game. This idea that giving Genji the resource meter would make his gameplay inherently deeper than the current cooldown system is asinine.
"In the end, you're just approaching the same attempt at depth a different way. "
Hey, you're finally getting it.
It's nice that you're agreeing with me that no specific system is necessary over a good implementation of the system, and that one mechanic doesn't magically add some profound level of depth that's not equally matched by a variety of other mechanics.
Now if only we could find a way to fix that ironic projection of espousing opinions as canon when someone disagrees with them.
You repeated the same mistake again here by assuming very specific functions being attached to the resource mechanic to make it perform like a cooldown.
Consumables aren't coold owns, they're single-use items(a resource) that you do have a factor of having to account for timing on use, but that's the sticking point.
Not all things that have to do with managing your timing is itself a "cool down". A cool down is itself the mechanic where there is an expressly enforced time delay before you can re-use something.
With that point, there is no inherently necessary "cooldown regen period" in a resource system so long as the implementation of the system allows a player to budget themselves accordingly. Hell, even your Rift example shows a broken version of this where "running out of mana is never a concern".
Point is, you are continuing to conflate many things to a rather severe degree. You've called two different things at this point cooldowns now even though they aren't, in some zealous effort to defend a mechanic from being rather shallow.
That you use Overwatch as an example there is exemplary of this as well because Overwatch is not itself a deep game on bot the action or meta sense. It's a very approachable and casual game mechanically, which makes it's more shallow depth part of the very reason for it's popularity.
Hell, you even used an example of a conditional trigger again as if that was itself the cooldown effect. That example falls right back into the same thing I already quoted to you multiple times over now about how other similar mechanics can be used to create the same form of depth.
<sigh> Wow. I've never seen someone so duly concerned with their own opinion that they literally cannot fathom how anyone could take it for anything less than absolute truth. But yet, here you are.
Yea buddy, that Genji skill would work just fine without a cooldown. Give him a resource meter instead, yea! Then, if he misses it drains the meter! In the end, you're just approaching the same attempt at depth a different way. Giving him a resource meter would do little to impart more depth. Tracer actually has an ability that recharges constantly and builds charges, which is directly analogous to a resource pool that passively regenerates constantly. Without the time needed to regen charges, (the cooldown of the ability, whether your high and mighty ass can admit it or not), it doesn't work. Both of these characters could've used "ammo" they had to manually reload, charges that passively regenerate, or direct cooldowns. All are aimed at the same goal: imparting depth by creating more impactful, thoughtful decisions within the player during combat that result in more impactful, thoughtful actions in the game. This idea that giving Genji the resource meter would make his gameplay inherently deeper than the current cooldown system is asinine.
"In the end, you're just approaching the same attempt at depth a different way. "
Hey, you're finally getting it. Now if only we could find a way to fix that ironic projection of espousing opinions as canon when someone disagrees with them.
That's been my point the entire time. Yours has included the idea that cooldowns are inherently poor at imparting depth, which isn't true. Poor implementation of cooldowns is poor at imparting depth. Just as poor implementations of resource meters is.
You repeated the same mistake again here by assuming very specific functions being attached to the resource mechanic to make it perform like a cooldown.
Consumables aren't coold owns, they're single-use items(a resource) that you do have a factor of having to account for timing on use, but that's the sticking point.
Not all things that have to do with managing your timing is itself a "cool down". A cool down is itself the mechanic where there is an expressly enforced time delay before you can re-use something.
With that point, there is no inherently necessary "cooldown regen period" in a resource system so long as the implementation of the system allows a player to budget themselves accordingly. Hell, even your Rift example shows a broken version of this where "running out of mana is never a concern".
Point is, you are continuing to conflate many things to a rather severe degree. You've called two different things at this point cooldowns now even though they aren't, in some zealous effort to defend a mechanic from being rather shallow.
That you use Overwatch as an example there is exemplary of this as well because Overwatch is not itself a deep game on bot the action or meta sense. It's a very approachable and casual game mechanically, which makes it's more shallow depth part of the very reason for it's popularity.
Hell, you even used an example of a conditional trigger again as if that was itself the cooldown effect. That example falls right back into the same thing I already quoted to you multiple times over now about how other similar mechanics can be used to create the same form of depth.
<sigh> Wow. I've never seen someone so duly concerned with their own opinion that they literally cannot fathom how anyone could take it for anything less than absolute truth. But yet, here you are.
Yea buddy, that Genji skill would work just fine without a cooldown. Give him a resource meter instead, yea! Then, if he misses it drains the meter! In the end, you're just approaching the same attempt at depth a different way. Giving him a resource meter would do little to impart more depth. Tracer actually has an ability that recharges constantly and builds charges, which is directly analogous to a resource pool that passively regenerates constantly. Without the time needed to regen charges, (the cooldown of the ability, whether your high and mighty ass can admit it or not), it doesn't work. Both of these characters could've used "ammo" they had to manually reload, charges that passively regenerate, or direct cooldowns. All are aimed at the same goal: imparting depth by creating more impactful, thoughtful decisions within the player during combat that result in more impactful, thoughtful actions in the game. This idea that giving Genji the resource meter would make his gameplay inherently deeper than the current cooldown system is asinine.
"In the end, you're just approaching the same attempt at depth a different way. "
Hey, you're finally getting it. Now if only we could find a way to fix that ironic projection of espousing opinions as canon when someone disagrees with them.
That's been my point the entire time. Yours has included the idea that cooldowns are inherently poor at imparting depth, which isn't true. Poor implementation of cooldowns is poor at imparting depth. Just as poor implementations of resource meters is.
You said your point was you were unhappy someone said ESO has more depth than WoW, which no one said.
Which is again worth noting, no one ever made such a claim.
Can you decide what you point actually was?
And your arguments never managed to address the points I made on cool downs. I pointed out the depth they impart is entirely replaceable by other similar mechanics, and you gave examples of other mechanics that utilize them in a replaceable manner. At no point did you show that cool downs had any depth beyond that which I mentioned.
You repeated the same mistake again here by assuming very specific functions being attached to the resource mechanic to make it perform like a cooldown.
Consumables aren't coold owns, they're single-use items(a resource) that you do have a factor of having to account for timing on use, but that's the sticking point.
Not all things that have to do with managing your timing is itself a "cool down". A cool down is itself the mechanic where there is an expressly enforced time delay before you can re-use something.
With that point, there is no inherently necessary "cooldown regen period" in a resource system so long as the implementation of the system allows a player to budget themselves accordingly. Hell, even your Rift example shows a broken version of this where "running out of mana is never a concern".
Point is, you are continuing to conflate many things to a rather severe degree. You've called two different things at this point cooldowns now even though they aren't, in some zealous effort to defend a mechanic from being rather shallow.
That you use Overwatch as an example there is exemplary of this as well because Overwatch is not itself a deep game on bot the action or meta sense. It's a very approachable and casual game mechanically, which makes it's more shallow depth part of the very reason for it's popularity.
Hell, you even used an example of a conditional trigger again as if that was itself the cooldown effect. That example falls right back into the same thing I already quoted to you multiple times over now about how other similar mechanics can be used to create the same form of depth.
<sigh> Wow. I've never seen someone so duly concerned with their own opinion that they literally cannot fathom how anyone could take it for anything less than absolute truth. But yet, here you are.
Yea buddy, that Genji skill would work just fine without a cooldown. Give him a resource meter instead, yea! Then, if he misses it drains the meter! In the end, you're just approaching the same attempt at depth a different way. Giving him a resource meter would do little to impart more depth. Tracer actually has an ability that recharges constantly and builds charges, which is directly analogous to a resource pool that passively regenerates constantly. Without the time needed to regen charges, (the cooldown of the ability, whether your high and mighty ass can admit it or not), it doesn't work. Both of these characters could've used "ammo" they had to manually reload, charges that passively regenerate, or direct cooldowns. All are aimed at the same goal: imparting depth by creating more impactful, thoughtful decisions within the player during combat that result in more impactful, thoughtful actions in the game. This idea that giving Genji the resource meter would make his gameplay inherently deeper than the current cooldown system is asinine.
"In the end, you're just approaching the same attempt at depth a different way. "
Hey, you're finally getting it. Now if only we could find a way to fix that ironic projection of espousing opinions as canon when someone disagrees with them.
That's been my point the entire time. Yours has included the idea that cooldowns are inherently poor at imparting depth, which isn't true. Poor implementation of cooldowns is poor at imparting depth. Just as poor implementations of resource meters is.
You said your point was you were unhappy someone said ESO has more depth than WoW, which no one said.
Which is again worth noting, no one ever made such a claim.
Can you decide what you point actually was?
And your arguments never managed to address the points I made on cool downs. I pointed out the depth they impart is entirely replaceable by other similar mechanics, and you gave examples of other mechanics that utilize them in a replaceable manner. At no point did you show that cool downs had any depth beyond that which I mentioned.
Instead you've just been angrily ranting at me.
No, you completely missed the point. Neither WoW, nor ESO, nor Rift specifically matter to my argument. They're all examples. And no, I'm not unhappy that someone said ESO has more depth than WoW, I'm telling you that WoW primarily uses cooldowns (not really, but compared to ESO), and ESO primarily uses resource management, to impart depth; neither way is inherently superior. Somehow, you got that I was trying to compare the two games in full to one another? <sigh>
Made claim remains the same: resource management is not inherently superior to cooldowns or any other system in creating depth. The implementation of the system is key. Most games use a combination of the systems for a reason.
No, you completely missed the point. Neither WoW, nor ESO, nor Rift specifically matter to my argument. They're all examples. And no, I'm not unhappy that someone said ESO has more depth than WoW, I'm telling you that WoW primarily uses cooldowns (not really, but compared to ESO), ESO primarily uses resource management to impart depth, but neither way is inherently superior. Somehow, you got that I was trying to compare the two games in full to one another? <sigh>
Made claim remains the same: resource management is not inherently superior to cooldowns or any other system in creating depth. The implementation of the system is key. Most games use a combination of the systems for a reason.
Yay my turn to say no!
No, you completely missed the point.
What you just quoted as your reason for ranting as long as you have, is the exact point I made in my comparison of ESO and WoW when I talked about the two.
You're the one that then responded to me, gave all these arguments that I have had to waste time correcting, and when you come around to calaiming that your point is the same exact thing you chose to argue against in the first place, I'm supposed to say "Ok yeah I can believe that."
I know I stated it seemed you'd misunderstood my original dialogue, which is why I made corrective responses to you. But your claim right now utterly betrays the fact that looking back in this thread we can see that you argued from the perspective depth of a title like WoW, and your vote history shows favor to the claim that one form of game design has inherently more depth.
Your statement "resource managment is not inherently superior to cooldowns" is already an argument that is a response to nothing. You even gave an example yourself that resource management can be horrifically shallow by itself, making a skill cost a tenth of your power and another skill cost half your power would have a very similar effect to making a skill have a short timer and another have a long timer. However, before the implementation of other mechanics we do already have a distinction to make. In the resource situation your pacing of a fight is still in your hands to dictate (dumping all your resources on skills early in hopes of beating an opponent versus pacing yourself for openings). A timer more directly affects pacing as you are forced to adhere to it's re-use cycle instead and creates a much more concrete pace for the fight to have to adhere to. The more integral timers become to the game's design the less flexible some of those factors and the ability to affect depth around them is.
Your made claim is a seriously bunk claim. If you want to admit you've been in agreement with my own statement this entire time while trying to argue at me, I have no way to address that than to say it's utterly absurd.
This is effectively you admitting you've been trolling this entire time.
Hell, part of the reason for my original ESO and WoW comparison was me highlighting how the core mechanics and features of the games are not as distant from each other or in the manner in which they create depth, merely in the manner in which they are visually presented to the user.
Which goes to this end again, after your first post to me I even said plain as day;
Yet you chose to continue complaining, only to turn around and now claim you are making that very same argument? Did you not even read what you were responding to before you replied?
What you just quoted as your reason for ranting as long as you have, is the exact point I made in my comparison of ESO and WoW when I talked about the two.
You're the one that then responded to me, gave all these arguments that I have had to waste time correcting, and when you come around to calaiming that your point is the same exact thing you chose to argue against in the first place, I'm supposed to say "Ok yeah I can believe that."
I know I stated it seemed you'd misunderstood my original dialogue, which is why I made corrective responses to you. But your claim right now utterly betrays the fact that looking back in this thread we can see that you argued from the perspective depth of a title like WoW, and your vote history shows favor to the claim that one form of game design has inherently more depth.
Your made claim is a seriously bunk claim. If you want to admit you've been in agreement with my own statement this entire time while trying to argue at me, I have no way to address that than to say it's utterly absurd.
This is effectively you admitting you've been trolling this entire time.
No, my post history shows I enjoy the depth of WoW more than ESO. I've... Not really made that a secret.
However, I also don't think cooldowns inherently impart more depth than resource management. Happy? I am, because it doesn't at all change or even challenge my point.
I originally entered this thread to discuss numbers of abilities, and again, expressed that I find more abilities my preference. It then became about cooldowns versus resource management, at which point I took offense to the idea that cooldowns are a poor way to create depth (indeed, they are no poorer than any other system, including resource management). The first two posts where you and I began interacting was a chain between me and someone else, and your first response jumped into that conversation (still about number of abilities).
My response to you then: It's not as rotation based as you make it seem.
You're ignoring the proc mechanics, which alter which ability is best used next in the rotation.
Every game will have an optimal "rotation" that, barring specific situations, will be most optimal. Depth of combat isn't destroyed by such rotations, it can be enhanced by mechanices like the proc effects that change the rotation and utility skills I've mentioned that are, many times, used in very time-sensitive manners, specifically in PvP.
Let's check that against my current claim made: resource management is not inherently superior to cooldowns or any other system in creating depth. Does my quote up there violate that claim? Nope, because at the time, I was making the same damn claim from the other direction about cooldowns and additional skills. Did it imply that resource management is inferior or superior? No. It didn't address resource management at all, nor did it compare WoW and ESO's systems.
Your response to my post above included this little gem: A recharge timer is only one form of inhibitor, and it's a rather simple one when it comes to trying to build any form of depth. It only builds context in the manner of "should I use it now or later" and often just becomes part of a planned rotation that accounts for it's recharge length to basically create spam out of a repeated sequence of skills instead. Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472446/elder-scrolls-online-the-combat-and-the-content-of-eso-mmorpg-com/p4#LBUgVlEC3m412Y36.99
To which I immediately called you out as implying cooldown systems impart little depth. Again you responded with the same implication:
But somehow got offended that I called you out for it. My claim has remained the same: the system implemented doesn't matter so much as how they're implemented. You're the one trying to assign weighted values to the systems. I'm calling them relatively equal.
Also: No, you jumped into my conversation, not the other way around, homeslice.
EDIT- Excuse me, in the interest of accuracy, we interacted about an unrelated topic (comparing number of skills between ESO and WoW), earlier in the thread. My point was that WoW had more skills than ESO, and attempting to conflate the issue to try and say they had roughly the same was disingenuous. However, I did not respond to your last comment in that chain because the discussion was exhausted and I misunderstood your implication in the post I originally responded to, something I admitted in my response.
This was actually you being the one to insert yourself into a conversation I was having with another person. That carried on a bit, and then you tried to use one of the same arguments you used with me that I addressed, against another person without having ever responding to that first dialogue concerning it.
I called you out on that by readdressing the point. "Or you can give them a heavy penalty in some other form like high energy cost to use, potential vulnerabilities, channeling/charge time, diminishing re-use values, and/or hard counters.
A recharge timer is only one form of inhibitor, and it's a rather simple one when it comes to trying to build any form of depth. It only builds context in the manner of "should I use it now or later" and often just becomes part of a planned rotation that accounts for it's recharge length to basically create spam out of a repeated sequence of skills instead.
More skills "can" enhance depth, but only in so far as variety remains a thing. A game has to have the fundamental features to support a breadth of different skill and effects if having a variety of skills is to hold any meaning, and many titles do not, with a very heavy load of crossover skills that are generally re-flavored basic combat techniques. The warrior just does the same ability with a sword instead of a bow and the effect is orange instead of green. Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472446/elder-scrolls-online-the-combat-and-the-content-of-eso-mmorpg-com/p3#TwMHqMLRoIEbDvJT.99"
The part you're picking up at is further after that when I address you once again interpreting people arguments somewhat oddly;
"Think his point rather was that with as many skills as can be espoused as a virtue for the Pally to have, many of them are superfluous to victory conditions.
While it's not a paladin-specific term, there's a reason "spin to win" is even a phrase, as ultimately many system's game depth can and has been broken by poor implementation of skills and/or exploits the players discover.
Beyond that, it's a rare case where anyone is likely to require more than a handful of skills during any given fight, and more so there is the realization that many skills are less of a contextual matter and more-so simply of swapping rotations pending a different mob type.
When it's a very rotation based system, depth is an increasingly distant factor.
Which is what prompted me to point out that cooldowns are not required to achieve that kind of depth. Something you had not espoused as of yet, instead yours was a response tying depth rather directly to more skills and cooldowns as you were supporting the argument estableshed by Cameltosis which rested directly upon that notion being the core of depth. That being the conversation you interjected yourself in here when you replied to this quoted post of Sovrath's (which it's also worth noting was itself a post responding to a conversation me and Camel were having when he then you interjected);
"When you only have a limited number of skills to choose from, the choice of what to use next is easy, therefore it doesn't have depth. That is the root of my problems with all action combat games - deciding what to do next is too easy. "
"That's not really true.
You can have 100 skills and the use of any one of them could be as shallow as shallow can be.
"depth" is just that "depth". Take your 6 skills and each one could very well decide on another few options, each one drilling down or allowing one to revisit a former option.
Probably one of the reasons "go" is so easy and yet so hard.
Maybe even chess. I mean, what are your options but horizontal or vertical with the exception of the knight.
Yet how each piece is positioned and what it supports is where the complexity comes in.
I think one could have great depth with only two or even 3 choices at a time, unraveling other choices as well.
Which also means I can say; "Also: No, you jumped into my conversation, not the other way around, homeslice."
This isn't even getting into how you have made repeated arguments trying to associate cooldowns as doing a variety of things they aren't even responsible or integral for. I didn't give them a "value" i pointed out their actual fundamental mechanic. This even got addressed each time you brought up those examples and I could point to the variety of mechanics that actually do factor into making the depth, and how other mechanics can slip into that place.
You made the erroneous claim that me calling cooldowns negligible in their creation of depth as me implying other mechanics were fundamentally more valuable. And you know what? At this point I'm going to say that yes in fact there are other more meaningful mechanics for the creation of depth in a game's sytsems. That however, was not a point I riginally made, not even with that "gem" you quoted (note, you created the context for what you quoted) did I say it was less consequential than anything that could directly substitute it. At that level you're talking about individual bytes of a game's functionality any ways.
As it plays out though, you were the one to then take umbrage with me saying your preferred functionality is not the only thing, nor the most important. You're the one that made this annoying tangent where nothing you've managed to use as an example has even supported your attempted argument, and you're the one that has turned around and claimed it's all for the very same intent as the very same damn thing I told you in my second response to you in this thread.
Your behavior is not that of a person of reason at this point, and I do actually find myself increasingly insulted at your attempts to sway reality.
I didn't read camel's comments in full, so the part you quoted isn't even something I read prior to, oh, just 30 seconds ago. Not sure why you're linking me to another's comments, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't, because it leads to your being confused about my actual point.
I repeatedly mentioned that limited skill sets do not inherently mean lack of depth, specifically in the response to Sovrath's comment you quoted. Literally, right under the spot where I quoted Sovrath:
"I agree that limited skills in and of itself does not equal lack of depth. It largely depends upon how the skills are implemented. However, I feel that goes without saying for pretty much any gameplay mechanic.
On the flip side, more skills can absolutely enhance combat depth, as can cooldowns. You can give a class a tide-turning ability on a cooldowns that would otherwise be too powerful for the class to possess. Invuln, flash heals, stuns, interrupts, and instant nukes come to mind. From there, layers get added when you combine these cooldowns with priority or focused targetting. Interrupts might need to be used on a damage dealer to protect your own heals while the nukes and other offensive cooldowns need to be blown on their healer to focus him or her down. Again, it opens things up for strategic use, but it requires intentional implementation." Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472446/elder-scrolls-online-the-combat-and-the-content-of-eso-mmorpg-com/p3#eQK7pHcdbuZ0LZvH.99
Notice how my point, when both commenting on limited skills and lots of skills, includes that implementation is key.
Regarding our previous interaction in the thread; you're right, I had forgotten about it. Largely because it had ended way prior to this current interaction starting and had no bearing on this one.
Lord Jesus, grant me patience. And I'm a friggin' atheist!
Which also means I can say; "Also: No, you jumped into my conversation, not the other way around, homeslice."
This isn't even getting into how you have made repeated arguments trying to associate cooldowns as doing a variety of things they aren't even responsible or integral for. I didn't give them a "value" i pointed out their actual fundamental mechanic. This even got addressed each time you brought up those examples and I could point to the variety of mechanics that actually do factor into making the depth, and how other mechanics can slip into that place.
You made the erroneous claim that me calling cooldowns negligible in their creation of depth as me implying other mechanics were fundamentally more valuable. And you know what? At this point I'm going to say that yes in fact there are other more meaningful mechanics for the creation of depth in a game's sytsems. That however, was not a point I riginally made, not even with that "gem" you quoted (note, you created the context for what you quoted) did I say it was less consequential than anything that could directly substitute it. At that level you're talking about individual bytes of a game's functionality any ways.
As it plays out though, you were the one to then take umbrage with me saying your preferred functionality is not the only thing, nor the most important. You're the one that made this annoying tangent where nothing you've managed to use as an example has even supported your attempted argument, and you're the one that has turned around and claimed it's all for the very same intent as the very same damn thing I told you in my second response to you in this thread.
Your behavior is not that of a person of reason at this point, and I do actually find myself increasingly insulted at your attempts to sway reality.
Dude, of course I have a preference. I haven't hidden that. I also haven't hidden the fact that cooldowns and lots of skills aren't necessary for depth. It's the depth I prefer for MMORPGs. Your argument wasn't about that preference, but implying that the cooldown itself is inherently less valuable in creating depth. Something you've finally admitted after implying heavily but shying away from when I tried to call you for it and argue that point.
I didn't read camel's comments in full, so the part you quoted isn't even something I read prior to, oh, just 30 seconds ago. Not sure why you're linking me to another's comments, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't, because it leads to your being confused about my actual point.
I repeatedly mentioned that limited skill sets do not inherently mean lack of depth, specifically in the response to Sovrath's comment you quoted. Literally, right under the spot where I quoted Sovrath:
"I agree that limited skills in and of itself does not equal lack of depth. It largely depends upon how the skills are implemented. However, I feel that goes without saying for pretty much any gameplay mechanic.
On the flip side, more skills can absolutely enhance combat depth, as can cooldowns. You can give a class a tide-turning ability on a cooldowns that would otherwise be too powerful for the class to possess. Invuln, flash heals, stuns, interrupts, and instant nukes come to mind. From there, layers get added when you combine these cooldowns with priority or focused targetting. Interrupts might need to be used on a damage dealer to protect your own heals while the nukes and other offensive cooldowns need to be blown on their healer to focus him or her down. Again, it opens things up for strategic use, but it requires intentional implementation." Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472446/elder-scrolls-online-the-combat-and-the-content-of-eso-mmorpg-com/p3#eQK7pHcdbuZ0LZvH.99
Notice how my point, when both commenting on limited skills and lots of skills, includes that implementation is key.
Regarding our previous interaction in the thread; you're right, I had forgotten about it. Largely because it had ended way prior to this current interaction starting and had no bearing on this one.
Lord Jesus, grant me patience. And I'm a friggin' atheist!
I linked you to Sovrath's post because that was the point where you interjected into his conversation with Cameltosis, who was himself having a conversation with me.
And yeah, you say you "I agree that limited skills in and of itself does not equal lack of depth." and then you turn around and claim that more skills and more timers = more depth in your very next paragraph as we can see right there in your post.
"While WoW is pruning skills, I still have in excess of 12 skills on my Paladin that are used regularly in fights."
This is again you espousing the virtue of having more skills. While you do qualify that they need to exist for specific purpose at least and not simply for skill bloat, this too fails to even address the points that have been made regarding cooldowns or anything else now discussed.
And now you want to tell me you haven't been reading the posts that you have tagged a few times now as "insightful"? What, did you find the length of the sentences appealing or something?
And that prior conversation has bearing because that conversation was the very same one still going between me and Camel at the time that Sov and you chose to comment on.
Don't act like you're the one to be having their patience tried here when you can't even keep an honest dialogue for a half a post.
I didn't read camel's comments in full, so the part you quoted isn't even something I read prior to, oh, just 30 seconds ago. Not sure why you're linking me to another's comments, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't, because it leads to your being confused about my actual point.
I repeatedly mentioned that limited skill sets do not inherently mean lack of depth, specifically in the response to Sovrath's comment you quoted. Literally, right under the spot where I quoted Sovrath:
"I agree that limited skills in and of itself does not equal lack of depth. It largely depends upon how the skills are implemented. However, I feel that goes without saying for pretty much any gameplay mechanic.
On the flip side, more skills can absolutely enhance combat depth, as can cooldowns. You can give a class a tide-turning ability on a cooldowns that would otherwise be too powerful for the class to possess. Invuln, flash heals, stuns, interrupts, and instant nukes come to mind. From there, layers get added when you combine these cooldowns with priority or focused targetting. Interrupts might need to be used on a damage dealer to protect your own heals while the nukes and other offensive cooldowns need to be blown on their healer to focus him or her down. Again, it opens things up for strategic use, but it requires intentional implementation." Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472446/elder-scrolls-online-the-combat-and-the-content-of-eso-mmorpg-com/p3#eQK7pHcdbuZ0LZvH.99
Notice how my point, when both commenting on limited skills and lots of skills, includes that implementation is key.
Regarding our previous interaction in the thread; you're right, I had forgotten about it. Largely because it had ended way prior to this current interaction starting and had no bearing on this one.
Lord Jesus, grant me patience. And I'm a friggin' atheist!
I linked you to Sovrath's post because that was the point where you interjected into his conversation with Cameltosis, who was himself having a conversation with me.
And yeah, you say you "I agree that limited skills in and of itself does not equal lack of depth." and then you turn around and claim that more skills and more timers = more depth in your very next paragraph as we can see right there in your post.
"While WoW is pruning skills, I still have in excess of 12 skills on my Paladin that are used regularly in fights."
This is again you espousing the virtue of having more skills. While you do qualify that they need to exist for specific purpose at least and not simply for skill bloat, this too fails to even address the points that have been made regarding cooldowns or anything else now discussed.
And now you want to tell me you haven't been reading the posts that you have tagged a few times now as "insightful"? What, did you find the length of the sentences appealing or something?
And that prior conversation has bearing because that conversation was the very same one still going between me and Camel at the time that Sov and you chose to comment on.
Don't act like you're the one to be having their patience tried here when you can't even keep an honest dialogue for a half a post.
Read my previous post: my qualifying statements were there for a reason. But I never tried to say that any system was inherently less valuable than a specific other system. I espoused the virtues of more skills in creating depth, yes, but I never said it was the only way to create depth.
EDIT- the post Sovrath quoted wasn't the post I marked insightful, by the way.
Which also means I can say; "Also: No, you jumped into my conversation, not the other way around, homeslice."
This isn't even getting into how you have made repeated arguments trying to associate cooldowns as doing a variety of things they aren't even responsible or integral for. I didn't give them a "value" i pointed out their actual fundamental mechanic. This even got addressed each time you brought up those examples and I could point to the variety of mechanics that actually do factor into making the depth, and how other mechanics can slip into that place.
You made the erroneous claim that me calling cooldowns negligible in their creation of depth as me implying other mechanics were fundamentally more valuable. And you know what? At this point I'm going to say that yes in fact there are other more meaningful mechanics for the creation of depth in a game's sytsems. That however, was not a point I riginally made, not even with that "gem" you quoted (note, you created the context for what you quoted) did I say it was less consequential than anything that could directly substitute it. At that level you're talking about individual bytes of a game's functionality any ways.
As it plays out though, you were the one to then take umbrage with me saying your preferred functionality is not the only thing, nor the most important. You're the one that made this annoying tangent where nothing you've managed to use as an example has even supported your attempted argument, and you're the one that has turned around and claimed it's all for the very same intent as the very same damn thing I told you in my second response to you in this thread.
Your behavior is not that of a person of reason at this point, and I do actually find myself increasingly insulted at your attempts to sway reality.
Dude, of course I have a preference. I haven't hidden that. I also haven't hidden the fact that cooldowns and lots of skills aren't necessary for depth. It's the depth I prefer for MMORPGs. Your argument wasn't about that preference, but implying that the cooldown itself is inherently less valuable in creating depth. Something you've finally admitted after implying heavily but shying away from when I tried to call you for it and argue that point.
I've never changed my point that cooldowns do not themselves attribute much depth at all to a game. That remains true and has only be reinforced by your examples all using a different primary feature for creating depth, using the timers in scenarios where they can be replaced under every case while other mechanics remain to actually establish the depth that component then is part of forming.
That was me admitting that at this point I may as well stop trying to point out the fact that at no point did I say it was less useful that other similar mechanics, as they are all of negligible value on their own, and instead simply embrace the reality of what logic dictates there.
Go ahead and read my prior arguments, where I have addressed that aspect time and again. Your reflexive disinterest in actually going over the full of what you're responding to is the only reason you have this delusion you've called anyone out on anything. Instead, you've wasted my time reaffirming my points while equally learning nothing.
Which also means I can say; "Also: No, you jumped into my conversation, not the other way around, homeslice."
This isn't even getting into how you have made repeated arguments trying to associate cooldowns as doing a variety of things they aren't even responsible or integral for. I didn't give them a "value" i pointed out their actual fundamental mechanic. This even got addressed each time you brought up those examples and I could point to the variety of mechanics that actually do factor into making the depth, and how other mechanics can slip into that place.
You made the erroneous claim that me calling cooldowns negligible in their creation of depth as me implying other mechanics were fundamentally more valuable. And you know what? At this point I'm going to say that yes in fact there are other more meaningful mechanics for the creation of depth in a game's sytsems. That however, was not a point I riginally made, not even with that "gem" you quoted (note, you created the context for what you quoted) did I say it was less consequential than anything that could directly substitute it. At that level you're talking about individual bytes of a game's functionality any ways.
As it plays out though, you were the one to then take umbrage with me saying your preferred functionality is not the only thing, nor the most important. You're the one that made this annoying tangent where nothing you've managed to use as an example has even supported your attempted argument, and you're the one that has turned around and claimed it's all for the very same intent as the very same damn thing I told you in my second response to you in this thread.
Your behavior is not that of a person of reason at this point, and I do actually find myself increasingly insulted at your attempts to sway reality.
Dude, of course I have a preference. I haven't hidden that. I also haven't hidden the fact that cooldowns and lots of skills aren't necessary for depth. It's the depth I prefer for MMORPGs. Your argument wasn't about that preference, but implying that the cooldown itself is inherently less valuable in creating depth. Something you've finally admitted after implying heavily but shying away from when I tried to call you for it and argue that point.
I've never changed my point that cooldowns do not themselves attribute much depth at all to a game. That remains true and has only be reinforced by your examples all using a different primary feature for creating depth, using the timers in scenarios where they can be replaced under every case while other mechanics remain to actually establish the depth that component then is part of forming.
That was me admitting that at this point I may as well stop trying to point out the fact that at no point did I say it was less useful that other similar mechanics, as they are all of negligible value on their own, and instead simply embrace the reality of what logic dictates there.
Go ahead and read my prior arguments, where I have addressed that aspect time and again. Your reflexive disinterest in actually going over the full of what you're responding to is the only reason you have this delusion you've called anyone out on anything. Instead, you've wasted my time reaffirming my points while equally learning nothing.
Again, your previous posts were focused around cooldowns, as were mine.
To be clear, my point was: there are ways to create depth that don't require cooldowns or lots of skills, but lots of skills and cooldowns can add a lot of depth.
Your response was attempting to say that other ways can do it better. Which, again, I took offense to and attempted to argue that nothing inherently made them superior. A position, by the way, you avoided until recently admitting, because you were determined to make that point offhandedly as universal fact instead of your owning it as your opinion. Considering my posts never criticized other ways of providing depth but, instead, simply espoused the virtues of the way you yourself pointed out was clearly my preference.... Yea, I'm gonna say your own hubris cost you a lot of time and heartache here.
I've never changed my point that cooldowns do not themselves attribute much depth at all to a game. That remains true and has only be reinforced by your examples all using a different primary feature for creating depth, using the timers in scenarios where they can be replaced under every case while other mechanics remain to actually establish the depth that component then is part of forming.
That was me admitting that at this point I may as well stop trying to point out the fact that at no point did I say it was less useful that other similar mechanics, as they are all of negligible value on their own, and instead simply embrace the reality of what logic dictates there.
Go ahead and read my prior arguments, where I have addressed that aspect time and again. Your reflexive disinterest in actually going over the full of what you're responding to is the only reason you have this delusion you've called anyone out on anything. Instead, you've wasted my time reaffirming my points while equally learning nothing.
Again, your previous posts were focused around cooldowns, as were mine.
To be clear, my point was: there are ways to create depth that don't require cooldowns or lots of skills, but lots of skills and cooldowns can add a lot of depth.
Your response was attempting to say that other ways can do it better. Which, again, I took offense to and attempted to argue that nothing inherently made them superior. A position you avoided until recently admitting, because you were determined to make that point offhandedly as universal fact instead of your owning it as your opinion. Considering my posts never criticized other ways of providing depth but, instead, simply espoused the virtues of the way you yourself pointed out was clearly my preference.... Yea, I'm gonna say your own hubris cost you a lot of time and heartache here.
Because cooldowns were the thing that got grabbed as a point of contention when Cameltosis and I were talking, as he was of the mindset they were integral to creating depth, hence my dialogue had been founded on breaking them down in how they rest with other mechanics and that they were one of multiple basic components that are interchangeable for that level of depth.
That dialogue extended into my response to you when you interjected alongside Sovrath.
My response did not say other ways "can do it better". My response was to say that there was a distinct focus on a skill that is itself not the lynchpin to creating depth.
That remains even now, and your taking offense to my dialogue has rather clearly blinded you to even comprehending that even when you're responding to a post that is explaining that, going so far as to attempt waving it away as simply opinion when all your own examples only went to reaffirming my point.
Hell you even repeat the "a position you avoided" when no, at no point has this been a shift in my dialogue, and you can go back and read most my previous posts to see that I do in fact address this point pretty much every damn time you mention it.
YOU JUST KEEP BLOODY IGNORING IT TO REPEAT THE SAME CRAP!
Was this really to get me to admit that objectively cooldowns are a minor component? As that point still has not changed.
I criticized that mechanic because it was an integral hitch in the back and forth I was having before you and Sov interjected. I criticized that mechanic because it was claimed to be something that was responsible for a variety of depth that, as you started giving examples, we could see that was not true since that component could be swapped out for others to create that same depth you'd previously attributed erroneously to cooldowns.
If that mechanic can be replaced with another mechanic with the same framework and result in the same outcome, then that mechanic is not the inegral factor in the creation of the depth you are looking at. It's certainly a factor as some mechanic obviously has to take that part, but it's not the most important one, not even equally. You're simply espousing the virtues of a supporting mechanic being plugged into a variety of other systems that are themselves more integral, like the contextualized flagging to make shifting optimal conditions.
Yet here we are, with you still lying about some magical argument that I've wasted more time talking about than I even want to consider at this point, and you still pretending didn't happen for the last three pages?!
Please, elucidate me at what point this comment of yours isn't supposed to sound completely insane.
You went beyond making them interchangeable and began criticizing cooldowns as a poor component in and of itself for the job. Again, you implied that only until recently, but I smelled it the first time you did so and called you out immediately.
Now, you can continue to talk about how that wasn't your original point, but we weren't discussing your original point, but your comments implying cooldowns being a relatively poor choice. If your overarching point was that they're all equal parts that require strategic use, maybe next time leave out the implication that one is a relatively poor choice.
You went beyond making them interchangeable and began criticizing cooldowns as a poor component in and of itself for the job. Again, you implied that only until recently, but I smelled it the first time you did so and called you out immediately.
Now, you can continue to talk about how that wasn't your original point, but we weren't discussing your original point, but your comments implying cooldowns being a relatively poor choice. If your overarching point was that they're all equal parts that require strategic use, maybe next time leave out the implication that one is a relatively poor choice.
Please, with your infinite absurdism, explain how that comment is saying that cooldowns are a poor component for the job. especially when in that very same post I gave multiple other similar mechanics that are all intended as plugins at the same relative tier of complexity and individual impact, and moreover plug into other larger systems in the same manner as eachother.
Please, with your infinite absurdism, explain to me how saying it's one of a variety of simple baseline mechanics somehow makes it is a poor choice (or more poor than any other mechanic on it's level)?
Please, with your infinite absurdism, quote where I ever said it was a poor choice or worse than other systems on that level.
You can't because that is your own erroneous claim.
What I do say time and again is that, because it's not the only mechanic that can create the desired forms of depth, that it's not a necessary feature to have to implement everywhere. Is that what you're trying to claim is me saying it's a poor choice?
To continue making up crap like this where you're claiming I posed an argument that was never made, much like that WoW argument where you created a pedantic tangent about skill count, is really annoying and only continues the disconnect with reality I have pointed out about you and your responses here.
This is something you've walked back from in our conversations as you later conceded that they were in fact very interchangeable as per the Overwatch and Genji example.
I've never changed my point that cooldowns do not themselves attribute much depth at all to a game. That remains true and has only be reinforced by your examples all using a different primary feature for creating depth, using the timers in scenarios where they can be replaced under every case while other mechanics remain to actually establish the depth that component then is part of forming.
That was me admitting that at this point I may as well stop trying to point out the fact that at no point did I say it was less useful that other similar mechanics, as they are all of negligible value on their own, and instead simply embrace the reality of what logic dictates there.
Go ahead and read my prior arguments, where I have addressed that aspect time and again. Your reflexive disinterest in actually going over the full of what you're responding to is the only reason you have this delusion you've called anyone out on anything. Instead, you've wasted my time reaffirming my points while equally learning nothing.
Again, your previous posts were focused around cooldowns, as were mine.
To be clear, my point was: there are ways to create depth that don't require cooldowns or lots of skills, but lots of skills and cooldowns can add a lot of depth.
Your response was attempting to say that other ways can do it better. Which, again, I took offense to and attempted to argue that nothing inherently made them superior. A position you avoided until recently admitting, because you were determined to make that point offhandedly as universal fact instead of your owning it as your opinion. Considering my posts never criticized other ways of providing depth but, instead, simply espoused the virtues of the way you yourself pointed out was clearly my preference.... Yea, I'm gonna say your own hubris cost you a lot of time and heartache here.
Because cooldowns were the thing that got grabbed as a point of contention when Cameltosis and I were talking, as he was of the mindset they were integral to creating depth, hence my dialogue had been founded on breaking them down in how they rest with other mechanics and that they were one of multiple basic components that are interchangeable for that level of depth.
Just jumping back in here, but you're misrepresenting my position.
I didn't say cooldowns were integral to creating depth. I just said they were A way to add depth, a very easy way because the presence of long cooldowns makes the decision to use a skill (or not) harder because the consequence of making the wrong choice (and thus finding yourself on cooldown when you actually do need the skill) more impactful on the outcome of the fight.
I fully agree that you can have depth without cooldowns. However, the removal of cooldowns does remove depth, so you need to make up that ground elsewhere, for example, by making the skill have a very serious resource cost (which is basically just it's own version of a cooldown, because it prevents you from spamming it and forces you to wait for resources to regen).
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Both ESO and GW2 have limited skills and action combat. I find ESO combat boring and I love GW2 combat. So for me the problem is not about limited skills.
I can see some reasons why :
- For limited skill combat, it is more fun if you can change build on the fly in between combat. To better adapt to a situation. For some reason ESO makes this a problem, while GW2 just lets you change your complete build all the time.
- Combat in GW2 just feels more fluid and coherent imo. Animations, mobility, CC, everything seems to be more satisfying. Then there are the way better spell effects (if you care for that).
- GW2 also goes through great lengths to make everyone work together during events. I have never played a MMO where during events so many players try to resurrect a downed player. It is also one of the few MMO's where I use group finder to join PUG's. Especially for world bosses.
There are guilds that are known for running squads through the whole meta event chain for zones. The commander and mentor map tags help with this too. ESO, while having a helpful community in chat, out in the field you feel more isolated for some reason.
- The way skill synergy in combat works and how healing and buffing counts for participation for events, makes sure that combat stays fresh somehow in GW2. Because of this there are also so many viable builds (not counting min/max for high lvl fractal/raid).
I really think that ESO should just copy some of this from GW2. Just take what works in GW2 to replace whatever is less popular in ESO. ESO is a great MMO for other reasons, but combat is not it imo.
hahaha I love this "come play for free" promo that MMORPG is promoting....You play (the basic game) for free if you buy the expansion....So once again it isnt free.
I've never changed my point that cooldowns do not themselves attribute much depth at all to a game. That remains true and has only be reinforced by your examples all using a different primary feature for creating depth, using the timers in scenarios where they can be replaced under every case while other mechanics remain to actually establish the depth that component then is part of forming.
That was me admitting that at this point I may as well stop trying to point out the fact that at no point did I say it was less useful that other similar mechanics, as they are all of negligible value on their own, and instead simply embrace the reality of what logic dictates there.
Go ahead and read my prior arguments, where I have addressed that aspect time and again. Your reflexive disinterest in actually going over the full of what you're responding to is the only reason you have this delusion you've called anyone out on anything. Instead, you've wasted my time reaffirming my points while equally learning nothing.
Again, your previous posts were focused around cooldowns, as were mine.
To be clear, my point was: there are ways to create depth that don't require cooldowns or lots of skills, but lots of skills and cooldowns can add a lot of depth.
Your response was attempting to say that other ways can do it better. Which, again, I took offense to and attempted to argue that nothing inherently made them superior. A position you avoided until recently admitting, because you were determined to make that point offhandedly as universal fact instead of your owning it as your opinion. Considering my posts never criticized other ways of providing depth but, instead, simply espoused the virtues of the way you yourself pointed out was clearly my preference.... Yea, I'm gonna say your own hubris cost you a lot of time and heartache here.
Because cooldowns were the thing that got grabbed as a point of contention when Cameltosis and I were talking, as he was of the mindset they were integral to creating depth, hence my dialogue had been founded on breaking them down in how they rest with other mechanics and that they were one of multiple basic components that are interchangeable for that level of depth.
Just jumping back in here, but you're misrepresenting my position.
I didn't say cooldowns were integral to creating depth. I just said they were A way to add depth, a very easy way because the presence of long cooldowns makes the decision to use a skill (or not) harder because the consequence of making the wrong choice (and thus finding yourself on cooldown when you actually do need the skill) more impactful on the outcome of the fight.
I fully agree that you can have depth without cooldowns. However, the removal of cooldowns does remove depth, so you need to make up that ground elsewhere, for example, by making the skill have a very serious resource cost (which is basically just it's own version of a cooldown, because it prevents you from spamming it and forces you to wait for resources to regen).
No no, you're wrong, Limnic is the arbiter of truth and our font of knowledge. That's why he's condescending all the time.
Comments
There are flaws in the system on an objective mechanical/functional level. Some of those flaws you can regard as exploits.
I actually made a post early on regarding the game's development cycle that lead to some of the flaws I have talked about, things that are inherent to the game's engine at this point.
I try to keep from espousing my own opinion about a title in these kind of things for a reason.
Hey, you're finally getting it.
It's nice that you're agreeing with me that no specific system is necessary over a good implementation of the system, and that one mechanic doesn't magically add some profound level of depth that's not equally matched by a variety of other mechanics.
Now if only we could find a way to fix that ironic projection of espousing opinions as canon when someone disagrees with them.
"I'm telling you how they impart depth is in no way inherently superior or more effective than the way WoW does.
Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472446/elder-scrolls-online-the-combat-and-the-content-of-eso-mmorpg-com/p4#UzY01pQVHyIB9bkJ.99"
Which is again worth noting, no one ever made such a claim.
Can you decide what you point actually was?
And your arguments never managed to address the points I made on cool downs. I pointed out the depth they impart is entirely replaceable by other similar mechanics, and you gave examples of other mechanics that utilize them in a replaceable manner. At no point did you show that cool downs had any depth beyond that which I mentioned.
Instead you've just been angrily ranting at me.
Made claim remains the same: resource management is not inherently superior to cooldowns or any other system in creating depth. The implementation of the system is key. Most games use a combination of the systems for a reason.
No, you completely missed the point.
What you just quoted as your reason for ranting as long as you have, is the exact point I made in my comparison of ESO and WoW when I talked about the two.
You're the one that then responded to me, gave all these arguments that I have had to waste time correcting, and when you come around to calaiming that your point is the same exact thing you chose to argue against in the first place, I'm supposed to say "Ok yeah I can believe that."
I know I stated it seemed you'd misunderstood my original dialogue, which is why I made corrective responses to you. But your claim right now utterly betrays the fact that looking back in this thread we can see that you argued from the perspective depth of a title like WoW, and your vote history shows favor to the claim that one form of game design has inherently more depth.
Your statement "resource managment is not inherently superior to cooldowns" is already an argument that is a response to nothing. You even gave an example yourself that resource management can be horrifically shallow by itself, making a skill cost a tenth of your power and another skill cost half your power would have a very similar effect to making a skill have a short timer and another have a long timer. However, before the implementation of other mechanics we do already have a distinction to make. In the resource situation your pacing of a fight is still in your hands to dictate (dumping all your resources on skills early in hopes of beating an opponent versus pacing yourself for openings). A timer more directly affects pacing as you are forced to adhere to it's re-use cycle instead and creates a much more concrete pace for the fight to have to adhere to. The more integral timers become to the game's design the less flexible some of those factors and the ability to affect depth around them is.
Your made claim is a seriously bunk claim. If you want to admit you've been in agreement with my own statement this entire time while trying to argue at me, I have no way to address that than to say it's utterly absurd.
This is effectively you admitting you've been trolling this entire time.
Which goes to this end again, after your first post to me I even said plain as day;
"The comparison you complain about was me using the two games to show how their feature set is actually more similar to one another than it is different, ESO just represents the features and depth in a different manner.
Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472446/elder-scrolls-online-the-combat-and-the-content-of-eso-mmorpg-com/p2#oyierdD4mswBiqaC.99"
Yet you chose to continue complaining, only to turn around and now claim you are making that very same argument? Did you not even read what you were responding to before you replied?
Don't insult me like that.
However, I also don't think cooldowns inherently impart more depth than resource management. Happy? I am, because it doesn't at all change or even challenge my point.
I originally entered this thread to discuss numbers of abilities, and again, expressed that I find more abilities my preference. It then became about cooldowns versus resource management, at which point I took offense to the idea that cooldowns are a poor way to create depth (indeed, they are no poorer than any other system, including resource management). The first two posts where you and I began interacting was a chain between me and someone else, and your first response jumped into that conversation (still about number of abilities).
My response to you then: It's not as rotation based as you make it seem.
You're ignoring the proc mechanics, which alter which ability is best used next in the rotation.
Every game will have an optimal "rotation" that, barring specific situations, will be most optimal. Depth of combat isn't destroyed by such rotations, it can be enhanced by mechanices like the proc effects that change the rotation and utility skills I've mentioned that are, many times, used in very time-sensitive manners, specifically in PvP.
Nothing about adding cooldowns skills or extra skills, in and of itself, destroys depth. Indeed, if it is intentionally used, it can increase it
Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472446/elder-scrolls-online-the-combat-and-the-content-of-eso-mmorpg-com/p4#LBUgVlEC3m412Y36.99
Let's check that against my current claim made: resource management is not inherently superior to cooldowns or any other system in creating depth. Does my quote up there violate that claim? Nope, because at the time, I was making the same damn claim from the other direction about cooldowns and additional skills. Did it imply that resource management is inferior or superior? No. It didn't address resource management at all, nor did it compare WoW and ESO's systems.
Your response to my post above included this little gem: A recharge timer is only one form of inhibitor, and it's a rather simple one when it comes to trying to build any form of depth. It only builds context in the manner of "should I use it now or later" and often just becomes part of a planned rotation that accounts for it's recharge length to basically create spam out of a repeated sequence of skills instead.
Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472446/elder-scrolls-online-the-combat-and-the-content-of-eso-mmorpg-com/p4#LBUgVlEC3m412Y36.99
To which I immediately called you out as implying cooldown systems impart little depth. Again you responded with the same implication:
In that paragraph you can see I mention it has a negligible impact on depth, not a negative one.
Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472446/elder-scrolls-online-the-combat-and-the-content-of-eso-mmorpg-com/p4#LBUgVlEC3m412Y36.99
But somehow got offended that I called you out for it. My claim has remained the same: the system implemented doesn't matter so much as how they're implemented. You're the one trying to assign weighted values to the systems. I'm calling them relatively equal.
Also: No, you jumped into my conversation, not the other way around, homeslice.
EDIT- Excuse me, in the interest of accuracy, we interacted about an unrelated topic (comparing number of skills between ESO and WoW), earlier in the thread. My point was that WoW had more skills than ESO, and attempting to conflate the issue to try and say they had roughly the same was disingenuous. However, I did not respond to your last comment in that chain because the discussion was exhausted and I misunderstood your implication in the post I originally responded to, something I admitted in my response.
You originally entered this thread creating a response to me saying my dialogue comparing ESO and WoW as having similar core mechanics as being "a disingenuous comparison."
Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472446/elder-scrolls-online-the-combat-and-the-content-of-eso-mmorpg-com/p2#lhdIHQb3kwS4RwGj.99
This was actually you being the one to insert yourself into a conversation I was having with another person. That carried on a bit, and then you tried to use one of the same arguments you used with me that I addressed, against another person without having ever responding to that first dialogue concerning it.
I called you out on that by readdressing the point.
"Or you can give them a heavy penalty in some other form like high energy cost to use, potential vulnerabilities, channeling/charge time, diminishing re-use values, and/or hard counters.
A recharge timer is only one form of inhibitor, and it's a rather simple one when it comes to trying to build any form of depth. It only builds context in the manner of "should I use it now or later" and often just becomes part of a planned rotation that accounts for it's recharge length to basically create spam out of a repeated sequence of skills instead.
More skills "can" enhance depth, but only in so far as variety remains a thing. A game has to have the fundamental features to support a breadth of different skill and effects if having a variety of skills is to hold any meaning, and many titles do not, with a very heavy load of crossover skills that are generally re-flavored basic combat techniques. The warrior just does the same ability with a sword instead of a bow and the effect is orange instead of green.
Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472446/elder-scrolls-online-the-combat-and-the-content-of-eso-mmorpg-com/p3#TwMHqMLRoIEbDvJT.99"
The part you're picking up at is further after that when I address you once again interpreting people arguments somewhat oddly;
"Think his point rather was that with as many skills as can be espoused as a virtue for the Pally to have, many of them are superfluous to victory conditions.
While it's not a paladin-specific term, there's a reason "spin to win" is even a phrase, as ultimately many system's game depth can and has been broken by poor implementation of skills and/or exploits the players discover.
Beyond that, it's a rare case where anyone is likely to require more than a handful of skills during any given fight, and more so there is the realization that many skills are less of a contextual matter and more-so simply of swapping rotations pending a different mob type.
When it's a very rotation based system, depth is an increasingly distant factor.
Even to include items, you just cycle back into the repetition of the point previously made that there is a separate dedicated 8-slot button for it in ESO. And it's been explained where and how cooldowns factor into depth(or not) previously."
Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472446/elder-scrolls-online-the-combat-and-the-content-of-eso-mmorpg-com/p3#TwMHqMLRoIEbDvJT.99
As we can see, you latched onto the rotations comment.
Prior to that however we can see you stated "From there, layers get added when you combine these cooldowns with priority or focused targetting."
Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472446/elder-scrolls-online-the-combat-and-the-content-of-eso-mmorpg-com/p3#TwMHqMLRoIEbDvJT.99
Which is what prompted me to point out that cooldowns are not required to achieve that kind of depth. Something you had not espoused as of yet, instead yours was a response tying depth rather directly to more skills and cooldowns as you were supporting the argument estableshed by Cameltosis which rested directly upon that notion being the core of depth. That being the conversation you interjected yourself in here when you replied to this quoted post of Sovrath's (which it's also worth noting was itself a post responding to a conversation me and Camel were having when he then you interjected);
"When you only have a limited number of skills to choose from, the choice of what to use next is easy, therefore it doesn't have depth. That is the root of my problems with all action combat games - deciding what to do next is too easy. "
"That's not really true.
You can have 100 skills and the use of any one of them could be as shallow as shallow can be.
"depth" is just that "depth". Take your 6 skills and each one could very well decide on another few options, each one drilling down or allowing one to revisit a former option.
Probably one of the reasons "go" is so easy and yet so hard.
Maybe even chess. I mean, what are your options but horizontal or vertical with the exception of the knight.
Yet how each piece is positioned and what it supports is where the complexity comes in.
I think one could have great depth with only two or even 3 choices at a time, unraveling other choices as well.
Action combat is about movement, speed, depending on the game "positioning". It could have more depth but in general it's about excitement and speed and reaction. "
Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472446/elder-scrolls-online-the-combat-and-the-content-of-eso-mmorpg-com/p3#aCVipwU3c8corprT.99
So congrats, you've managed to lie about just about everything in this thread now.
"Also: No, you jumped into my conversation, not the other way around, homeslice."
This isn't even getting into how you have made repeated arguments trying to associate cooldowns as doing a variety of things they aren't even responsible or integral for. I didn't give them a "value" i pointed out their actual fundamental mechanic. This even got addressed each time you brought up those examples and I could point to the variety of mechanics that actually do factor into making the depth, and how other mechanics can slip into that place.
You made the erroneous claim that me calling cooldowns negligible in their creation of depth as me implying other mechanics were fundamentally more valuable. And you know what? At this point I'm going to say that yes in fact there are other more meaningful mechanics for the creation of depth in a game's sytsems. That however, was not a point I riginally made, not even with that "gem" you quoted (note, you created the context for what you quoted) did I say it was less consequential than anything that could directly substitute it. At that level you're talking about individual bytes of a game's functionality any ways.
As it plays out though, you were the one to then take umbrage with me saying your preferred functionality is not the only thing, nor the most important. You're the one that made this annoying tangent where nothing you've managed to use as an example has even supported your attempted argument, and you're the one that has turned around and claimed it's all for the very same intent as the very same damn thing I told you in my second response to you in this thread.
Your behavior is not that of a person of reason at this point, and I do actually find myself increasingly insulted at your attempts to sway reality.
I repeatedly mentioned that limited skill sets do not inherently mean lack of depth, specifically in the response to Sovrath's comment you quoted. Literally, right under the spot where I quoted Sovrath:
"I agree that limited skills in and of itself does not equal lack of depth. It largely depends upon how the skills are implemented. However, I feel that goes without saying for pretty much any gameplay mechanic.
On the flip side, more skills can absolutely enhance combat depth, as can cooldowns. You can give a class a tide-turning ability on a cooldowns that would otherwise be too powerful for the class to possess. Invuln, flash heals, stuns, interrupts, and instant nukes come to mind. From there, layers get added when you combine these cooldowns with priority or focused targetting. Interrupts might need to be used on a damage dealer to protect your own heals while the nukes and other offensive cooldowns need to be blown on their healer to focus him or her down. Again, it opens things up for strategic use, but it requires intentional implementation."
Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472446/elder-scrolls-online-the-combat-and-the-content-of-eso-mmorpg-com/p3#eQK7pHcdbuZ0LZvH.99
Notice how my point, when both commenting on limited skills and lots of skills, includes that implementation is key.
Regarding our previous interaction in the thread; you're right, I had forgotten about it. Largely because it had ended way prior to this current interaction starting and had no bearing on this one.
Lord Jesus, grant me patience. And I'm a friggin' atheist!
And yeah, you say you "I agree that limited skills in and of itself does not equal lack of depth." and then you turn around and claim that more skills and more timers = more depth in your very next paragraph as we can see right there in your post.
"While WoW is pruning skills, I still have in excess of 12 skills on my Paladin that are used regularly in fights."
Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472446/elder-scrolls-online-the-combat-and-the-content-of-eso-mmorpg-com/p2#Awv8lGIX6iCzRaWF.99
This is again you espousing the virtue of having more skills. While you do qualify that they need to exist for specific purpose at least and not simply for skill bloat, this too fails to even address the points that have been made regarding cooldowns or anything else now discussed.
And now you want to tell me you haven't been reading the posts that you have tagged a few times now as "insightful"? What, did you find the length of the sentences appealing or something?
And that prior conversation has bearing because that conversation was the very same one still going between me and Camel at the time that Sov and you chose to comment on.
Don't act like you're the one to be having their patience tried here when you can't even keep an honest dialogue for a half a post.
EDIT- the post Sovrath quoted wasn't the post I marked insightful, by the way.
That was me admitting that at this point I may as well stop trying to point out the fact that at no point did I say it was less useful that other similar mechanics, as they are all of negligible value on their own, and instead simply embrace the reality of what logic dictates there.
Go ahead and read my prior arguments, where I have addressed that aspect time and again. Your reflexive disinterest in actually going over the full of what you're responding to is the only reason you have this delusion you've called anyone out on anything. Instead, you've wasted my time reaffirming my points while equally learning nothing.
To be clear, my point was: there are ways to create depth that don't require cooldowns or lots of skills, but lots of skills and cooldowns can add a lot of depth.
Your response was attempting to say that other ways can do it better. Which, again, I took offense to and attempted to argue that nothing inherently made them superior. A position, by the way, you avoided until recently admitting, because you were determined to make that point offhandedly as universal fact instead of your owning it as your opinion. Considering my posts never criticized other ways of providing depth but, instead, simply espoused the virtues of the way you yourself pointed out was clearly my preference.... Yea, I'm gonna say your own hubris cost you a lot of time and heartache here.
That dialogue extended into my response to you when you interjected alongside Sovrath.
My response did not say other ways "can do it better". My response was to say that there was a distinct focus on a skill that is itself not the lynchpin to creating depth.
That remains even now, and your taking offense to my dialogue has rather clearly blinded you to even comprehending that even when you're responding to a post that is explaining that, going so far as to attempt waving it away as simply opinion when all your own examples only went to reaffirming my point.
Hell you even repeat the "a position you avoided" when no, at no point has this been a shift in my dialogue, and you can go back and read most my previous posts to see that I do in fact address this point pretty much every damn time you mention it.
YOU JUST KEEP BLOODY IGNORING IT TO REPEAT THE SAME CRAP!
Was this really to get me to admit that objectively cooldowns are a minor component? As that point still has not changed.
I criticized that mechanic because it was an integral hitch in the back and forth I was having before you and Sov interjected. I criticized that mechanic because it was claimed to be something that was responsible for a variety of depth that, as you started giving examples, we could see that was not true since that component could be swapped out for others to create that same depth you'd previously attributed erroneously to cooldowns.
If that mechanic can be replaced with another mechanic with the same framework and result in the same outcome, then that mechanic is not the inegral factor in the creation of the depth you are looking at. It's certainly a factor as some mechanic obviously has to take that part, but it's not the most important one, not even equally. You're simply espousing the virtues of a supporting mechanic being plugged into a variety of other systems that are themselves more integral, like the contextualized flagging to make shifting optimal conditions.
Yet here we are, with you still lying about some magical argument that I've wasted more time talking about than I even want to consider at this point, and you still pretending didn't happen for the last three pages?!
Please, elucidate me at what point this comment of yours isn't supposed to sound completely insane.
Now, you can continue to talk about how that wasn't your original point, but we weren't discussing your original point, but your comments implying cooldowns being a relatively poor choice. If your overarching point was that they're all equal parts that require strategic use, maybe next time leave out the implication that one is a relatively poor choice.
Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472446/elder-scrolls-online-the-combat-and-the-content-of-eso-mmorpg-com/p3#70uEKUGyPk6DArTM.99
Please, with your infinite absurdism, explain how that comment is saying that cooldowns are a poor component for the job. especially when in that very same post I gave multiple other similar mechanics that are all intended as plugins at the same relative tier of complexity and individual impact, and moreover plug into other larger systems in the same manner as eachother.
Please, with your infinite absurdism, explain to me how saying it's one of a variety of simple baseline mechanics somehow makes it is a poor choice (or more poor than any other mechanic on it's level)?
Please, with your infinite absurdism, quote where I ever said it was a poor choice or worse than other systems on that level.
You can't because that is your own erroneous claim.
What I do say time and again is that, because it's not the only mechanic that can create the desired forms of depth, that it's not a necessary feature to have to implement everywhere. Is that what you're trying to claim is me saying it's a poor choice?
To continue making up crap like this where you're claiming I posed an argument that was never made, much like that WoW argument where you created a pedantic tangent about skill count, is really annoying and only continues the disconnect with reality I have pointed out about you and your responses here.
Your own dialogue;
"Lol, it doesn't work in the same manner without the timers."
Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/472446/elder-scrolls-online-the-combat-and-the-content-of-eso-mmorpg-com/p5#QuzXWHRaw8o431VT.99
This is something you've walked back from in our conversations as you later conceded that they were in fact very interchangeable as per the Overwatch and Genji example.
EDIT: Yes-yes, the troll goes lol.
I didn't say cooldowns were integral to creating depth. I just said they were A way to add depth, a very easy way because the presence of long cooldowns makes the decision to use a skill (or not) harder because the consequence of making the wrong choice (and thus finding yourself on cooldown when you actually do need the skill) more impactful on the outcome of the fight.
I fully agree that you can have depth without cooldowns. However, the removal of cooldowns does remove depth, so you need to make up that ground elsewhere, for example, by making the skill have a very serious resource cost (which is basically just it's own version of a cooldown, because it prevents you from spamming it and forces you to wait for resources to regen).
I can see some reasons why :
- For limited skill combat, it is more fun if you can change build on the fly in between combat. To better adapt to a situation. For some reason ESO makes this a problem, while GW2 just lets you change your complete build all the time.
- Combat in GW2 just feels more fluid and coherent imo. Animations, mobility, CC, everything seems to be more satisfying. Then there are the way better spell effects (if you care for that).
- GW2 also goes through great lengths to make everyone work together during events. I have never played a MMO where during events so many players try to resurrect a downed player. It is also one of the few MMO's where I use group finder to join PUG's. Especially for world bosses.
There are guilds that are known for running squads through the whole meta event chain for zones. The commander and mentor map tags help with this too. ESO, while having a helpful community in chat, out in the field you feel more isolated for some reason.
- The way skill synergy in combat works and how healing and buffing counts for participation for events, makes sure that combat stays fresh somehow in GW2. Because of this there are also so many viable builds (not counting min/max for high lvl fractal/raid).
I really think that ESO should just copy some of this from GW2. Just take what works in GW2 to replace whatever is less popular in ESO. ESO is a great MMO for other reasons, but combat is not it imo.