Do you think more people would be open to open world pvp if there was no huge powergap, but instead keep the difference to 7% based on gear/build/other character progression?
Do you think more people would be open to open world pvp if there was no huge powergap, but instead keep the difference to 7% based on gear/build/other character progression?
I know I would be much more excited about that.
It would certainly remove the whole "Open World PVP is nothing but high level characters picking on low level ones" issue that seems to be the most common complaint about the genre. Some people don't care though. They are not going to be happy if they get attacked in the open world ever. And there will still be issues with people preying on players who are too new to the game to fight back effectively even the stat imbalance is either small or completely gone.
I think lower stat gap is one of the components needed to make Open World PvP work. I don't think it would work without other systems to complement it. Systems such as Non-PvP zones and areas with more limited PvP.
I do however think that Open World PvP enthusiasts who are looking for a bloodbath would love a low stat-gap game with a few restriction free areas because I think a lot more people would seek out the no-restriction PvP areas of their own volition if they felt they actually had a chance to compete without being crushed by a bunch of overstatted no-lifers.
Do you think more people would be open to open world pvp if there was no huge powergap, but instead keep the difference to 7% based on gear/build/other character progression?
I know I would be much more excited about that.
It would certainly remove the whole "Open World PVP is nothing but high level characters picking on low level ones" issue that seems to be the most common complaint about the genre. Some people don't care though. They are not going to be happy if they get attacked in the open world ever. And there will still be issues with people preying on players who are too new to the game to fight back effectively even the stat imbalance is either small or completely gone.
I think lower stat gap is one of the components needed to make Open World PvP work. I don't think it would work without other systems to complement it. Systems such as Non-PvP zones and areas with more limited PvP.
I do however think that Open World PvP enthusiasts who are looking for a bloodbath would love a low stat-gap game with a few restriction free areas because I think a lot more people would seek out the no-restriction PvP areas of their own volition if they felt they actually had a chance to compete without being crushed by a bunch of overstatted no-lifers.
In Lineage there is not much incentive to just kill a lowbye without reason, because if you do so, you will become a pk, and your karma points will get bigger and bigger. After getting a "pk" status (in ther words, you killed a neutral player that didn't fight back), you are instantly banned from towns, any other player can kill you without fearing of become pk, and if you die in pk state, you can lose at least one piece your gear to the player that kills you.
Killing for no reason is not a smart idea in Lineage, that offers an excelent pvp/pk system that punishes pkers. The only way to return from pk to normal state is by killing mobs of the same level as you or above until your karma goes to 0, and it is risky because there always are other players farming at your level range that can spot you and kill you for your gear.
Do you think more people would be open to open world pvp if there was no huge powergap, but instead keep the difference to 7% based on gear/build/other character progression?
I know I would be much more excited about that.
It would certainly remove the whole "Open World PVP is nothing but high level characters picking on low level ones" issue that seems to be the most common complaint about the genre. Some people don't care though. They are not going to be happy if they get attacked in the open world ever. And there will still be issues with people preying on players who are too new to the game to fight back effectively even the stat imbalance is either small or completely gone.
I think lower stat gap is one of the components needed to make Open World PvP work. I don't think it would work without other systems to complement it. Systems such as Non-PvP zones and areas with more limited PvP.
I do however think that Open World PvP enthusiasts who are looking for a bloodbath would love a low stat-gap game with a few restriction free areas because I think a lot more people would seek out the no-restriction PvP areas of their own volition if they felt they actually had a chance to compete without being crushed by a bunch of overstatted no-lifers.
In Lineage there is not much incentive to just kill a lowbye without reason, because if you do so, you will become a pk, and your karma points will get bigger and bigger. After getting a "pk" status (in ther words, you killed a neutral player that didn't fight back), you are instantly banned from towns, any other player can kill you without fearing of become pk, and if you die in pk state, you can lose at least one piece your gear to the player that kills you.
Killing for no reason is not a smart idea in Lineage, that offers an excelent pvp/pk system that punishes pkers. The only way to return from pk to normal state is by killing mobs of the same level as you or above until your karma goes to 0, and it is risky because there always are other players farming at your level range that can spot you and kill you for your gear.
The old system was better - a quest for killing of mobs, and you drop your gear if you have more than some number of PKs. The PK must be allowed for PvP, because every PvP starts when some player attack another. But it should be limited at some point to prevent pointless ganking. So proper risk/reward ratio. In EVE the PvP is really FFA for example. So it is better to allow completely the PvP, instead to make the PK so punishable, that it will stop any meaningful PvP. The so called ganking is not a result only from the PvP rules, but also things like class balance, level balance, skill balance, gear balance, short and long term goals. If the players face worthy opponents and have better things to do in the game, they will not PK. But if you have a bad, pointless gameplay, where some people are bored, and some are addicted and want to only to farm 24/7 (often with the absurd idea, one day they will become overpowered) the PK will happen often. So the best way to prevent it is to make a good game.
There are players that want to remain neutral until they feel they have the right level/gear. After that they can just join any clan that is engaged in war againt one or several clans.
When you find a player that belongs to a clan that is at war againt your clan outside a town, the pk rules no longer apply: you can just kill or be killed without having to fight back with no fear of becoming pk.
The pk rule is applied for players that don't want to engage in war, in the case they can create or join a clan that is not at war against any other clan.
Lineage has one of the best open world pvp/pk/clan war systems out there.
Do you think more people would be open to open world pvp if there was no huge powergap, but instead keep the difference to 7% based on gear/build/other character progression?
I know I would be much more excited about that.
As with all things, implementation is the key.
I personally think that the removal of power gaps would have a much greater effect on retention, rather than attraction. Power gaps result in a horrible experience for newbies, driving most of them away. By removing the power gaps, newbies have a much better experience and are more likely to stick around, resulting in a much better pvp community over the long term.
This retention of the pvp community would hopefully then result in more investment long term, slowly growing the community and investing in new ideas. As things currently stand, you get a small amount of up front investment in arenas, but the tiny community that sticks around doesn't justify further investment so the ideas never evolve.
But, would the removal of power gaps actually attract more players?
I don't think it would have that much effect. I love PvP in MMORPGs, but was guild leader of a PvE focused guild. My experience of non-PvPers is the same as most people here. You here the same excuses over and over - not liking gankers, not being in control, not liking zergs, not liking the uncertainty etc etc. Whilst they are all valid concerns, what it actually boils down to in the end is they just aren't good.
I know thats a bad thing to say and it's not going to be true for everyone, but I've literally never met someone who didn't like PvP who was actually average or good at it. They all sucked. Most of the time, it was a reactions issue. The chaos of a pvp environment was too much to handle so they just fell apart and rightly got stomped. Power gaps made the situation worse. Balance issues made the situation worse. Skill imbalance made the situation worse.
I've also spent a lot of time "training" guild members to be good at PvP. They start off shit, getting stomped by everyone, but over the course of a month or two they all became good. Some of this was overcoming the power gap, but the majority was overcoming their anxiety, training their spacial awareness so that they could react quicker, and getting them to re-learn their classes from a PvP perspective.
This was only possible due to the guild environment. By doing the training within the guild, that month or two was enjoyable time.
However, it is still a problem if you are making an MMORPG with a lot of PvP. Removing power gaps is step one, and it's a big step that's good for the long term health of your game. But, how do you make PvP enjoyable to a broader audience?
FPSes achieved this goal by lowering the skill barrier. In older shooters you needed a lot of skill to be good so the experience still sucked for newbies, despite the lack of power gaps. Modern shooters made it so that anyone could log in, spray some bullets, chuck some grenades and get some kills. Even if you are a complete moron, you can still get kills in CoD or Battlefield and that keeps you on the hook.
That doesn't yet exist in MMOs. There is no WoW equivalent of spraying bullets or chucking grenades. If your skill level is low, you're still going to get stomped repeatedly by better players, regardless of the power gap.
I don't know what that on-ramp should look like for PvP MMOs. In an instanced game you can handle it with matchmaking but for an MMO that's not possible. However, the on-ramp has to be tackled if you want to achieve wide-scale success.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Do you think more people would be open to open world pvp if there was no huge powergap, but instead keep the difference to 7% based on gear/build/other character progression?
I know I would be much more excited about that.
It would certainly remove the whole "Open World PVP is nothing but high level characters picking on low level ones" issue that seems to be the most common complaint about the genre. Some people don't care though. They are not going to be happy if they get attacked in the open world ever. And there will still be issues with people preying on players who are too new to the game to fight back effectively even the stat imbalance is either small or completely gone.
I think lower stat gap is one of the components needed to make Open World PvP work. I don't think it would work without other systems to complement it. Systems such as Non-PvP zones and areas with more limited PvP.
I do however think that Open World PvP enthusiasts who are looking for a bloodbath would love a low stat-gap game with a few restriction free areas because I think a lot more people would seek out the no-restriction PvP areas of their own volition if they felt they actually had a chance to compete without being crushed by a bunch of overstatted no-lifers.
In Lineage there is not much incentive to just kill a lowbye without reason, because if you do so, you will become a pk, and your karma points will get bigger and bigger. After getting a "pk" status (in ther words, you killed a neutral player that didn't fight back), you are instantly banned from towns, any other player can kill you without fearing of become pk, and if you die in pk state, you can lose at least one piece your gear to the player that kills you.
Killing for no reason is not a smart idea in Lineage, that offers an excelent pvp/pk system that punishes pkers. The only way to return from pk to normal state is by killing mobs of the same level as you or above until your karma goes to 0, and it is risky because there always are other players farming at your level range that can spot you and kill you for your gear.
The old system was better - a quest for killing of mobs, and you drop your gear if you have more than some number of PKs. The PK must be allowed for PvP, because every PvP starts when some player attack another. But it should be limited at some point to prevent pointless ganking. So proper risk/reward ratio. In EVE the PvP is really FFA for example. So it is better to allow completely the PvP, instead to make the PK so punishable, that it will stop any meaningful PvP. The so called ganking is not a result only from the PvP rules, but also things like class balance, level balance, skill balance, gear balance, short and long term goals. If the players face worthy opponents and have better things to do in the game, they will not PK. But if you have a bad, pointless gameplay, where some people are bored, and some are addicted and want to only to farm 24/7 (often with the absurd idea, one day they will become overpowered) the PK will happen often. So the best way to prevent it is to make a good game.
There are players that want to remain neutral until they feel they have the right level/gear. After that they can just join any clan that is engaged in war againt one or several clans.
When you find a player that belongs to a clan that is at war againt your clan outside a town, the pk rules no longer apply: you can just kill or be killed without having to fight back with no fear of becoming pk.
The pk rule is applied for players that don't want to engage in war, in the case they can create or join a clan that is not at war against any other clan.
Lineage has one of the best open world pvp/pk/clan war systems out there.
Played Lineage 2 Interlude and everything after The version now is simply bad in comparison to the first 5 chronicles, Gracia and High 5. The H5 is maybe the best version of the game, with good class balance (in Interlude the tanks and the healers are screwed for example) many customizations of the skills, the stats, and the gear, and all the L2 content.
Lineage 1 > Lineage 2. That is why I still have hopes for the Project TL, I hope they have learned the lesson after Lineage Eternal fiasco in Korea, which had nothing to do with Lineage 1.
Do you think more people would be open to open world pvp if there was no huge powergap, but instead keep the difference to 7% based on gear/build/other character progression?
I know I would be much more excited about that.
It would help, but would not be a total solution as ganking by greater numbers would still be a significant issue for those seeking a "fair fight."
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Make a good game don't give you more profit as making a bad game with P2W .
This is high time when trust game developer equal to throw money out of window . People who keep talking about game balance like me is people who refuse to throw the cash to play bad game , while people who throw the cash feel it worth because they "win"
Everyone PvP in MMOs. Just some people want to do it at safe way. Which is pretty ridiculous.
that's not even remotely true.
Unless there is some language barrier thing happening and you are trying to say that all activities in an mmo eventually come down to some sort of pvp, whether it be combat or economic or the race for resource nodes.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Do you think more people would be open to open world pvp if there was no huge powergap, but instead keep the difference to 7% based on gear/build/other character progression?
I know I would be much more excited about that.
As with all things, implementation is the key.
I personally think that the removal of power gaps would have a much greater effect on retention, rather than attraction. Power gaps result in a horrible experience for newbies, driving most of them away. By removing the power gaps, newbies have a much better experience and are more likely to stick around, resulting in a much better pvp community over the long term.
This retention of the pvp community would hopefully then result in more investment long term, slowly growing the community and investing in new ideas. As things currently stand, you get a small amount of up front investment in arenas, but the tiny community that sticks around doesn't justify further investment so the ideas never evolve.
But, would the removal of power gaps actually attract more players?
I don't think it would have that much effect. I love PvP in MMORPGs, but was guild leader of a PvE focused guild. My experience of non-PvPers is the same as most people here. You here the same excuses over and over - not liking gankers, not being in control, not liking zergs, not liking the uncertainty etc etc. Whilst they are all valid concerns, what it actually boils down to in the end is they just aren't good.
I know thats a bad thing to say and it's not going to be true for everyone, but I've literally never met someone who didn't like PvP who was actually average or good at it. They all sucked. Most of the time, it was a reactions issue. The chaos of a pvp environment was too much to handle so they just fell apart and rightly got stomped. Power gaps made the situation worse. Balance issues made the situation worse. Skill imbalance made the situation worse.
I've also spent a lot of time "training" guild members to be good at PvP. They start off shit, getting stomped by everyone, but over the course of a month or two they all became good. Some of this was overcoming the power gap, but the majority was overcoming their anxiety, training their spacial awareness so that they could react quicker, and getting them to re-learn their classes from a PvP perspective.
This was only possible due to the guild environment. By doing the training within the guild, that month or two was enjoyable time.
However, it is still a problem if you are making an MMORPG with a lot of PvP. Removing power gaps is step one, and it's a big step that's good for the long term health of your game. But, how do you make PvP enjoyable to a broader audience?
FPSes achieved this goal by lowering the skill barrier. In older shooters you needed a lot of skill to be good so the experience still sucked for newbies, despite the lack of power gaps. Modern shooters made it so that anyone could log in, spray some bullets, chuck some grenades and get some kills. Even if you are a complete moron, you can still get kills in CoD or Battlefield and that keeps you on the hook.
That doesn't yet exist in MMOs. There is no WoW equivalent of spraying bullets or chucking grenades. If your skill level is low, you're still going to get stomped repeatedly by better players, regardless of the power gap.
I don't know what that on-ramp should look like for PvP MMOs. In an instanced game you can handle it with matchmaking but for an MMO that's not possible. However, the on-ramp has to be tackled if you want to achieve wide-scale success.
IMO zerging delivers this kind of on-ramp. Run in safety of the blob, throw some AoE, get some kills. That is why I think zerging shouldn't be prevented but balanced instead.
Its the ideal way for newbies to get into PvP and learn the map.
Normally low stat gap would benefit zergs but that's where horizontal progression may shine through anti zerg skills which can be obtained and which specialize in countering it (e.g. more damage the more enemies a skill hits. AoE CC, ...)
It was designed at first to be an MMO, and due to budget/scope issues it became an MOBA.. it kinda sucks at being a good anything really.
But, really.. if you can get past the.. rather.. teeth grindingly bad game play and rampant cheat/aim bot users, the progression/leveling system is really amazing and could be a great foundation for any kind of game, either MMO or MOBA.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Everyone PvP in MMOs. Just some people want to do it at safe way. Which is pretty ridiculous.
that's not even remotely true.
Unless there is some language barrier thing happening and you are trying to say that all activities in an mmo eventually come down to some sort of pvp, whether it be combat or economic or the race for resource nodes.
Indeed the MMOs are about the PvP. Also think about the instanced arenas - what make them instanced? The loading screen? No. They are instanced because the lack of consequences. How many players will play on these arenas if they can lose gear, exp, gold?
There is a lot of Open World PvP that lacks consequence. Most themeparks have servers that allow Open World PvP but most of them lack consequence.
I can kind of get what you are saying in that even PVE games you tend to get the people who are like "I beat X raid first." "I am X level and you aren't." And of course markets are highly competitive. So I would say all MMOs include forms of PVP but I would not say that content is the primary focus for most players.
A lot of people really are just playing to have a good time with their friends or achieve personal goals.
And that is not open world PvP. Again - the technical issue - loading screen - is not the difference.
But it really kind of is. Instances are a separate area generated for a small number of players. So when you are out running around in the open world you can encounter any of the hundreds or thousands of players on the same server if they are in the same area as you.
But 10 different parties can be in the same dungeon, in the same room, but they won't see eachother because dungeons are instanced. There is a separate version of the map generated for each party.
The most meaningful differences generally found between Open World PvP and instanced PvP are:
1. Instanced PvP generally has even sides. Open World PvP rarely does. 2. PvP is expected in a PvP instance. Open World PvP often takes you by surprise.
No i am not open to ANY kind of pvp in my rpg,no matter what the setup. Pvp is nothing more than trying to kill other players,why would i want a game to focus on one area and if i am not interested in that VERY small idea of a game,why would i want to be bothered by another player? It SHOULD be pretty obvious,if you walk out your front door ,do you want some guy to jump you and say ,it's all good this is a FAIR pvp zone? Of course not and you know why?When you walked out that door you had ZERO interest in pvp or being jumped and that's why,you were FORCED into an idea of a game you did NOT wan to take part in,how that can be construed to be good EVER is beyond me. If i enter a game that is ONLY about pvp like a fps'r then yeah of course it is to be expected,that is why i entered that game.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
OK most of this thread is the same old, same old. So why do I want to play an online game?
I used to play pen and paper games when I was much younger. I really loved D&D. A few friends, a few drinks, some nibbles and a whole lot of role playing. But as I grew older less and less of my friends had any interest in doing this.
So along came Everquest, it allowed me to meet other people from around the world while sitting at home in comfort. Still had a few drinks, some nibbles and a whole lot of role playing.
What I never did, and never wanted to do was compete. Either via PvP or based on some sort of 'league table'.
Later I played EQ2, WoW, Rift and others and got drawn into hardcore raiding. But, inevitably I got frustrated by the change of focus from role playing and social engagement to hierarchy and competition. Less like casual kibbutzing and more like work.
These days I am house bound and my friends are dead or scattered across the world. But I still want that social interaction, without competition, that Everquest provided.
So Dragonball Z stats are not for me, but not because of PvP. I loathe PvP and want no part of it, nor do I want to play a game which has some form of PvP in it. What I really want is a slow paced game with high social interaction that I can play for five years or more, playing three to ten hours a day every day.
OK most of this thread is the same old, same old. So why do I want to play an online game?
I used to play pen and paper games when I was much younger. I really loved D&D. A few friends, a few drinks, some nibbles and a whole lot of role playing. But as I grew older less and less of my friends had any interest in doing this.
So along came Everquest, it allowed me to meet other people from around the world while sitting at home in comfort. Still had a few drinks, some nibbles and a whole lot of role playing.
What I never did, and never wanted to do was compete. Either via PvP or based on some sort of 'league table'.
Later I played EQ2, WoW, Rift and others and got drawn into hardcore raiding. But, inevitably I got frustrated by the change of focus from role playing and social engagement to hierarchy and competition. Less like casual kibbutzing and more like work.
These days I am house bound and my friends are dead or scattered across the world. But I still want that social interaction, without competition, that Everquest provided.
So Dragonball Z stats are not for me, but not because of PvP. I loathe PvP and want no part of it, nor do I want to play a game which has some form of PvP in it. What I really want is a slow paced game with high social interaction that I can play for five years or more, playing three to ten hours a day every day.
Socializer is my primary gamer type. I think being segregated by level to the point I can't enjoyably play together with friends of dissimilar levels is actually the most offensive part about DBZ progression to me.
Killer is my secondary type so of course the PvP implications bother me as well but really I don't see how someone who says "But I still want that social interaction" can't be bothered by the fact that if they want to hang out with the level 5 friend as a level 50 they will one shot any enemy their level 5 buddy can handle using any ability they have.
Make a good game don't give you more profit as making a bad game with P2W .
This is high time when trust game developer equal to throw money out of window . People who keep talking about game balance like me is people who refuse to throw the cash to play bad game , while people who throw the cash feel it worth because they "win"
That isn't true. Initially a bad P2W game earns more but in the long run the bad game will be forgotten while the good game turns profit for 10+ years.
The reason most devs go for the bad game is not that it earn more money but that is is way easier to make. Just make the same crap everyone else is doing, put is slightly better graphics and hype it up, when people notice it sucks the whales have already spent loads of cash.
A good game earns money slower but it will get more players and be played for a long time, it also can sell expansions and the next game the company makes with not have the stigma of being from a company that released crap in the past.
And if no-one makes a good game the genre will slowly fade away... While it seems you can trick whales rather many times you can't do it forever and eventually they will move to other genres.
Essentially bad games work because there are a lot of fad chasers out there. They're like "OOOOOH! REVELATION ONLINE IS GOING TO BE SO GOOD!" *It comes out* 95% of them "CAN'T WAIT UNTIL BLESS ONLINE!"
Me: "What exactly are these games offering that's new?"
"LOOK AT THE PRETTY GRAPHICS! MAN YOU SHOULD BE MORE OPEN MINDED!"
Me: "I'm willing to be open minded. That's why I asked you what the game is offering that is new..."
"DID YOU SEE THE GRAPHICS?!"
Me: "..........................."
By the time 95% of them are gone though, the game has made it's development costs back along with a tidy profit and then they have a game leftover they can milk until it dies.
Just like any development is about Community not PvP, I don't go around and punch the clerk in the face and light their car on fire for them to give me a pack of gum and a gallon of milk. That sounds moronic. I don't kick my employers ass for them to hand over a pay check.
An MMO is about working together, about interaction. Even an auction house, separates an MMO from a Single player game, as I am buying goods from other players, and PvP never enters the picture.
I don't get the obsession about PvP by some posters.. but.. that is just the way they are.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
OK most of this thread is the same old, same old. So why do I want to play an online game?
I used to play pen and paper games when I was much younger. I really loved D&D. A few friends, a few drinks, some nibbles and a whole lot of role playing. But as I grew older less and less of my friends had any interest in doing this.
So along came Everquest, it allowed me to meet other people from around the world while sitting at home in comfort. Still had a few drinks, some nibbles and a whole lot of role playing.
What I never did, and never wanted to do was compete. Either via PvP or based on some sort of 'league table'.
Later I played EQ2, WoW, Rift and others and got drawn into hardcore raiding. But, inevitably I got frustrated by the change of focus from role playing and social engagement to hierarchy and competition. Less like casual kibbutzing and more like work.
These days I am house bound and my friends are dead or scattered across the world. But I still want that social interaction, without competition, that Everquest provided.
So Dragonball Z stats are not for me, but not because of PvP. I loathe PvP and want no part of it, nor do I want to play a game which has some form of PvP in it. What I really want is a slow paced game with high social interaction that I can play for five years or more, playing three to ten hours a day every day.
Socializer is my primary gamer type. I think being segregated by level to the point I can't enjoyably play together with friends of dissimilar levels is actually the most offensive part about DBZ progression to me.
Killer is my secondary type so of course the PvP implications bother me as well but really I don't see how someone who says "But I still want that social interaction" can't be bothered by the fact that if they want to hang out with the level 5 friend as a level 50 they will one shot any enemy their level 5 buddy can handle using any ability they have.
Hmm, nope. Missed the point entirely. I find 'friends', or at least comfortable acquaintances, by playing the game and socialising. What you are talking about is bringing external friends into the game and playing with them (hence the level gap). Provided there are sufficient friendly folk at about my level I can mix and match from day to day and from hour to hour.
Happy with minimal stat changes, provided it's a fun game with great longevity. But statflation is not a killer for me.
Hmm, nope. Missed the point entirely. I find 'friends', or at least comfortable acquaintances, by playing the game and socialising.
Even in that scenario, you've never run into the situation where your out questing through the newby zone and you meet someone and you're powering through the newby content together, and you're like "Wow we make a great team! I'm going to add them to my friends list so we can play together more!"
Then the next time you see them they have been playing more than you, or you have been playing more than them, and one of you has 5+ levels on the other and you can't play together enjoyably anymore?
Because back when I played themeparks this was a regular problem I ran into all the damn time.
Essentially bad games work because there are a lot of fad chasers out there. They're like "OOOOOH! REVELATION ONLINE IS GOING TO BE SO GOOD!" *It comes out* 95% of them "CAN'T WAIT UNTIL BLESS ONLINE!"
Me: "What exactly are these games offering that's new?"
"LOOK AT THE PRETTY GRAPHICS! MAN YOU SHOULD BE MORE OPEN MINDED!"
Me: "I'm willing to be open minded. That's why I asked you what the game is offering that is new..."
"DID YOU SEE THE GRAPHICS?!"
Me: "..........................."
By the time 95% of them are gone though, the game has made it's development costs back along with a tidy profit and then they have a game leftover they can milk until it dies.
Umm dude.. BDO has Ass Physics.. that's worth 20 bucks all on it's own.. I mean boob physics are nice.. but when you spend 90% of your game time look at dat ass.. ass physics.. that's just a sale point.
The UI on the other had was so fucking bad.. It got me to stop playing..
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Comments
Do you think more people would be open to open world pvp if there was no huge powergap, but instead keep the difference to 7% based on gear/build/other character progression?
I know I would be much more excited about that.
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I think lower stat gap is one of the components needed to make Open World PvP work. I don't think it would work without other systems to complement it. Systems such as Non-PvP zones and areas with more limited PvP.
I do however think that Open World PvP enthusiasts who are looking for a bloodbath would love a low stat-gap game with a few restriction free areas because I think a lot more people would seek out the no-restriction PvP areas of their own volition if they felt they actually had a chance to compete without being crushed by a bunch of overstatted no-lifers.
Killing for no reason is not a smart idea in Lineage, that offers an excelent pvp/pk system that punishes pkers. The only way to return from pk to normal state is by killing mobs of the same level as you or above until your karma goes to 0, and it is risky because there always are other players farming at your level range that can spot you and kill you for your gear.
When you find a player that belongs to a clan that is at war againt your clan outside a town, the pk rules no longer apply: you can just kill or be killed without having to fight back with no fear of becoming pk.
The pk rule is applied for players that don't want to engage in war, in the case they can create or join a clan that is not at war against any other clan.
Lineage has one of the best open world pvp/pk/clan war systems out there.
I personally think that the removal of power gaps would have a much greater effect on retention, rather than attraction. Power gaps result in a horrible experience for newbies, driving most of them away. By removing the power gaps, newbies have a much better experience and are more likely to stick around, resulting in a much better pvp community over the long term.
This retention of the pvp community would hopefully then result in more investment long term, slowly growing the community and investing in new ideas. As things currently stand, you get a small amount of up front investment in arenas, but the tiny community that sticks around doesn't justify further investment so the ideas never evolve.
But, would the removal of power gaps actually attract more players?
I don't think it would have that much effect. I love PvP in MMORPGs, but was guild leader of a PvE focused guild. My experience of non-PvPers is the same as most people here. You here the same excuses over and over - not liking gankers, not being in control, not liking zergs, not liking the uncertainty etc etc. Whilst they are all valid concerns, what it actually boils down to in the end is they just aren't good.
I know thats a bad thing to say and it's not going to be true for everyone, but I've literally never met someone who didn't like PvP who was actually average or good at it. They all sucked. Most of the time, it was a reactions issue. The chaos of a pvp environment was too much to handle so they just fell apart and rightly got stomped. Power gaps made the situation worse. Balance issues made the situation worse. Skill imbalance made the situation worse.
I've also spent a lot of time "training" guild members to be good at PvP. They start off shit, getting stomped by everyone, but over the course of a month or two they all became good. Some of this was overcoming the power gap, but the majority was overcoming their anxiety, training their spacial awareness so that they could react quicker, and getting them to re-learn their classes from a PvP perspective.
This was only possible due to the guild environment. By doing the training within the guild, that month or two was enjoyable time.
However, it is still a problem if you are making an MMORPG with a lot of PvP. Removing power gaps is step one, and it's a big step that's good for the long term health of your game. But, how do you make PvP enjoyable to a broader audience?
FPSes achieved this goal by lowering the skill barrier. In older shooters you needed a lot of skill to be good so the experience still sucked for newbies, despite the lack of power gaps. Modern shooters made it so that anyone could log in, spray some bullets, chuck some grenades and get some kills. Even if you are a complete moron, you can still get kills in CoD or Battlefield and that keeps you on the hook.
That doesn't yet exist in MMOs. There is no WoW equivalent of spraying bullets or chucking grenades. If your skill level is low, you're still going to get stomped repeatedly by better players, regardless of the power gap.
I don't know what that on-ramp should look like for PvP MMOs. In an instanced game you can handle it with matchmaking but for an MMO that's not possible. However, the on-ramp has to be tackled if you want to achieve wide-scale success.
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This is high time when trust game developer equal to throw money out of window .
People who keep talking about game balance like me is people who refuse to throw the cash to play bad game , while people who throw the cash feel it worth because they "win"
Enjoy the first 8 months, after that the ebb and flow of nerfs followed by tears will become too toxic.
Unless there is some language barrier thing happening and you are trying to say that all activities in an mmo eventually come down to some sort of pvp, whether it be combat or economic or the race for resource nodes.
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Run in safety of the blob, throw some AoE, get some kills.
That is why I think zerging shouldn't be prevented but balanced instead.
Its the ideal way for newbies to get into PvP and learn the map.
Normally low stat gap would benefit zergs but that's where horizontal progression may shine through anti zerg skills which can be obtained and which specialize in countering it (e.g. more damage the more enemies a skill hits. AoE CC, ...)
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It was designed at first to be an MMO, and due to budget/scope issues it became an MOBA.. it kinda sucks at being a good anything really.
But, really.. if you can get past the.. rather.. teeth grindingly bad game play and rampant cheat/aim bot users, the progression/leveling system is really amazing and could be a great foundation for any kind of game, either MMO or MOBA.
I can kind of get what you are saying in that even PVE games you tend to get the people who are like "I beat X raid first." "I am X level and you aren't." And of course markets are highly competitive. So I would say all MMOs include forms of PVP but I would not say that content is the primary focus for most players.
A lot of people really are just playing to have a good time with their friends or achieve personal goals.
But 10 different parties can be in the same dungeon, in the same room, but they won't see eachother because dungeons are instanced. There is a separate version of the map generated for each party.
The most meaningful differences generally found between Open World PvP and instanced PvP are:
1. Instanced PvP generally has even sides. Open World PvP rarely does.
2. PvP is expected in a PvP instance. Open World PvP often takes you by surprise.
Pvp is nothing more than trying to kill other players,why would i want a game to focus on one area and if i am not interested in that VERY small idea of a game,why would i want to be bothered by another player?
It SHOULD be pretty obvious,if you walk out your front door ,do you want some guy to jump you and say ,it's all good this is a FAIR pvp zone?
Of course not and you know why?When you walked out that door you had ZERO interest in pvp or being jumped and that's why,you were FORCED into an idea of a game you did NOT wan to take part in,how that can be construed to be good EVER is beyond me.
If i enter a game that is ONLY about pvp like a fps'r then yeah of course it is to be expected,that is why i entered that game.
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So why do I want to play an online game?
I used to play pen and paper games when I was much younger. I really loved D&D. A few friends, a few drinks, some nibbles and a whole lot of role playing. But as I grew older less and less of my friends had any interest in doing this.
So along came Everquest, it allowed me to meet other people from around the world while sitting at home in comfort. Still had a few drinks, some nibbles and a whole lot of role playing.
What I never did, and never wanted to do was compete. Either via PvP or based on some sort of 'league table'.
Later I played EQ2, WoW, Rift and others and got drawn into hardcore raiding. But, inevitably I got frustrated by the change of focus from role playing and social engagement to hierarchy and competition. Less like casual kibbutzing and more like work.
These days I am house bound and my friends are dead or scattered across the world. But I still want that social interaction, without competition, that Everquest provided.
So Dragonball Z stats are not for me, but not because of PvP. I loathe PvP and want no part of it, nor do I want to play a game which has some form of PvP in it. What I really want is a slow paced game with high social interaction that I can play for five years or more, playing three to ten hours a day every day.
Killer is my secondary type so of course the PvP implications bother me as well but really I don't see how someone who says "But I still want that social interaction" can't be bothered by the fact that if they want to hang out with the level 5 friend as a level 50 they will one shot any enemy their level 5 buddy can handle using any ability they have.
The reason most devs go for the bad game is not that it earn more money but that is is way easier to make. Just make the same crap everyone else is doing, put is slightly better graphics and hype it up, when people notice it sucks the whales have already spent loads of cash.
A good game earns money slower but it will get more players and be played for a long time, it also can sell expansions and the next game the company makes with not have the stigma of being from a company that released crap in the past.
And if no-one makes a good game the genre will slowly fade away... While it seems you can trick whales rather many times you can't do it forever and eventually they will move to other genres.
Me: "What exactly are these games offering that's new?"
"LOOK AT THE PRETTY GRAPHICS! MAN YOU SHOULD BE MORE OPEN MINDED!"
Me: "I'm willing to be open minded. That's why I asked you what the game is offering that is new..."
"DID YOU SEE THE GRAPHICS?!"
Me: "..........................."
By the time 95% of them are gone though, the game has made it's development costs back along with a tidy profit and then they have a game leftover they can milk until it dies.
Just like any development is about Community not PvP, I don't go around and punch the clerk in the face and light their car on fire for them to give me a pack of gum and a gallon of milk. That sounds moronic. I don't kick my employers ass for them to hand over a pay check.
An MMO is about working together, about interaction. Even an auction house, separates an MMO from a Single player game, as I am buying goods from other players, and PvP never enters the picture.
I don't get the obsession about PvP by some posters.. but.. that is just the way they are.
It's nice to have friends of different levels be able to enjoy content together in a game that is about "Community not PvP".
It's nice to have content not be made irrelevant and unengaging just because it's lower level in game that about the world and not PvP.
And it's nice to have your character's progression actually be realistic in a game that is about immersion and not PvP.
It's just also nice for people to be able to compete on a semi-even level in a game about PvP.
I find 'friends', or at least comfortable acquaintances, by playing the game and socialising. What you are talking about is bringing external friends into the game and playing with them (hence the level gap). Provided there are sufficient friendly folk at about my level I can mix and match from day to day and from hour to hour.
Happy with minimal stat changes, provided it's a fun game with great longevity. But statflation is not a killer for me.
Then the next time you see them they have been playing more than you, or you have been playing more than them, and one of you has 5+ levels on the other and you can't play together enjoyably anymore?
Because back when I played themeparks this was a regular problem I ran into all the damn time.
The UI on the other had was so fucking bad.. It got me to stop playing..