Hmm, nope. Missed the point entirely. I find 'friends', or at least comfortable acquaintances, by playing the game and socialising.
Even in that scenario, you've never run into the situation where your out questing through the newby zone and you meet someone and you're powering through the newby content together, and you're like "Wow we make a great team! I'm going to add them to my friends list so we can play together more!"
Then the next time you see them they have been playing more than you, or you have been playing more than them, and one of you has 5+ levels on the other and you can't play together enjoyably anymore?
Because back when I played themeparks this was a regular problem I ran into all the damn time.
Nope. Firstly I don't like 'powering through the newbie content'. Secondly if the level gap gets too wide then it's time to find other people. Or perhaps, since I am almost certainly going to be the one playing more, do something else that doesn't level my character too fast, or levels it in a craft. Or perhaps start a second character to balance the hours played. Lots of alternatives, one of which is your original suggestion, shallow stats curves.
Secondly if the level gap gets too wide then it's time to find other people.
So to summarize, you play MMOs for the social aspect, but you don't like to build any depth to those relationships. I guess we are different kinds of social gamers.
Secondly if the level gap gets too wide then it's time to find other people.
So to summarize, you play MMOs for the social aspect, but you don't like to build any depth to those relationships. I guess we are different kinds of social gamers.
Nice cherry picking. Even when someone basically agrees with you you still have to 'win'. A true PvPer to infinity and beyond!
Secondly if the level gap gets too wide then it's time to find other people.
So to summarize, you play MMOs for the social aspect, but you don't like to build any depth to those relationships. I guess we are different kinds of social gamers.
Nice cherry picking. Even when someone basically agrees with you you still have to 'win'. A true PvPer to infinity and beyond!
As an outside observer I did not take your first reply as basically being in agreement with him
Starting a conversation with "Nope" is not the best way to convey a concurrence and your other points were all about how you cease working on your personal progression to allow you to stay in sync with others.
Not viable options to a player like him (or me) as in my case I play one character and only one until it "tops out."
I've done those other activities you mentioned and I find them hateful, as I do any activity which distracts from progression.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Essentially bad games work because there are a lot of fad chasers out there. They're like "OOOOOH! REVELATION ONLINE IS GOING TO BE SO GOOD!" *It comes out* 95% of them "CAN'T WAIT UNTIL BLESS ONLINE!"
Me: "What exactly are these games offering that's new?"
"LOOK AT THE PRETTY GRAPHICS! MAN YOU SHOULD BE MORE OPEN MINDED!"
Me: "I'm willing to be open minded. That's why I asked you what the game is offering that is new..."
"DID YOU SEE THE GRAPHICS?!"
Me: "..........................."
By the time 95% of them are gone though, the game has made it's development costs back along with a tidy profit and then they have a game leftover they can milk until it dies.
Umm dude.. BDO has Ass Physics.. that's worth 20 bucks all on it's own.. I mean boob physics are nice.. but when you spend 90% of your game time look at dat ass.. ass physics.. that's just a sale point.
The UI on the other had was so fucking bad.. It got me to stop playing..
Ungood getting to the bottom of the issue as always.
Just like any development is about Community not PvP, I don't go around and punch the clerk in the face and light their car on fire for them to give me a pack of gum and a gallon of milk. That sounds moronic. I don't kick my employers ass for them to hand over a pay check.
An MMO is about working together, about interaction. Even an auction house, separates an MMO from a Single player game, as I am buying goods from other players, and PvP never enters the picture.
I don't get the obsession about PvP by some posters.. but.. that is just the way they are.
That sounds great. That is how is build the communism in fact - great phrases with no sense.
MMOs are not about the community. They are for multiplayer gameplay - competition (the high difficulty) and cooperation (the low difficulty). In the auction house specially you cooperate and interact with nobody. You think you buy goods from other players, but that could be the AI, and at the end nobody really cares.
To call it interaction I should at least remember your character's name. I bought goods from no one, was in party with no one, PvP without consequences with no one. You are the no one in the typical themepark game. And nobody cares about you, because there is not need of you, as in the core the gameplay is solo.
Let look at LoL. There are two types of gameplay - vs AI and PvP. Many people are afraid to lose, want easy points and etc, so they play vs AI. When such a player goes into PvP match he plays solo, to get the best KDA. But the goal in the PvP is your team to win, the KDA does not matter. This is the main difference of the competition - in the PvP you compete with other people, so you need to cooperate. In the PvE you compete with the AI, so you may be the best player in beating the AI, but that does not lead to meaningful interaction and cooperation.
As for the milk and gum - I hope you do not walk around with armor/lingerie and big weapon in the real life
Do you read what you write, before you post it?
What kind of imbecilic nonsense is this.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
That's something I really really hate as a casual player. If I meet someone and then we will never be playing again together because he makes 5 levels on Monday while I'm in training. On Tuesday we see each other online but are too far apart. Next time he comes online on Friday I am 10 lvls above because I wanted to use the little time I have to play.
Other topic community yes, but nothing more annoying than PvE only and others can KS and grief and swear and do unbelievable things to my mother and I cannot even harm them. Or if there is PvP I could hit them 5 hours straight away and they wouldn't die because I'm missing 90% of my hits and the rest is not enough to win against their standard HP reggen.
Other topic. Even P&P games are PvP. Or do you fight against an computer always doing the same moves/skills at the same time? No you play against an other person the GM and he reacts to you and tries to defeat you and doesn't stop attacking just because you were walking to far away from him and then stands there waiting for you to get into his aggro range.
I still do like PvE. But I also want to interact with other players in as many ways as possible and this includes full loot PvP. But I won't play any full loot game anymore as long as you have no chance just because the other one has played 5times as long as you have.
Other topic. Even P&P games are PvP. Or do you fight against an computer always doing the same moves/skills at the same time? No you play against an other person the GM and he reacts to you and tries to defeat you and doesn't stop attacking just because you were walking to far away from him and then stands there waiting for you to get into his aggro range.
The thing with P&P is that it is both PVE and PVP. You are fighting against the environment. The environment is controlled by a player.
The implication is that the environment is smarter and presents more of a challenge.
Of course MMO PvP generally means competing directly against other player characters which is very different than facing an intelligent environment.
Ultimately the closest thing to P&P in a MMO would be a more random and unpredictable environment populated by more intelligent AI. I really wish that's something MMOs strived for more.
Obviously what we have in the way of AI right now is pretty limited but even if you compare MMOs to other existing games... In Skyrim if I go attack an NPC fort every NPC in the area will aggro and I have to kill them all. Ones a few rooms away might not hear but just walk into any fort in Skyrim, blast an NPC with a fireball, and see how much aggro you get. In most MMOs if I start attacking goblins with a 15 foot aggro range, and there is a goblin 16 foot away, they will stand there and watch me slaughter their friends.
I also think we've moved to a point technologically were procedural generation and data analytics would allow for much more unconstant and adaptive challenges. Why nobody has tried to take advantage of that yet in the MMO space is beyond me.
Ehhhh, there's a fine line. Making everyone the same, or close to it is boring unless it's strictly PvP and even then there needs to be flavor between one class and another.
Doesn't sound fun honestly, as progression would be very stale.
IMO the best way to combat this is with long-term horizontal progression. More MMOs need things like the EQ epic weapon quests, or FFXI Artifact Weapon/Armor quests. Things that are not tied to the gear treadmill of grinding out dailies for tokens.
To be clear I'm good with those systems, just not with them being the end-all, be-all.
Secondly if the level gap gets too wide then it's time to find other people.
So to summarize, you play MMOs for the social aspect, but you don't like to build any depth to those relationships. I guess we are different kinds of social gamers.
Nice cherry picking. Even when someone basically agrees with you you still have to 'win'. A true PvPer to infinity and beyond!
Brilliant retort
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I like progression for PVE and almost no progression for PVP.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I like progression for PVE and almost no progression for PVP.
How you play a MMO PvE?
With other people, you know, team work, community, helping each other out, foreign ideas to you I see.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
That's something I really really hate as a casual player. If I meet someone and then we will never be playing again together because he makes 5 levels on Monday while I'm in training. On Tuesday we see each other online but are too far apart. Next time he comes online on Friday I am 10 lvls above because I wanted to use the little time I have to play.
Other topic community yes, but nothing more annoying than PvE only and others can KS and grief and swear and do unbelievable things to my mother and I cannot even harm them. Or if there is PvP I could hit them 5 hours straight away and they wouldn't die because I'm missing 90% of my hits and the rest is not enough to win against their standard HP reggen.
Other topic. Even P&P games are PvP. Or do you fight against an computer always doing the same moves/skills at the same time? No you play against an other person the GM and he reacts to you and tries to defeat you and doesn't stop attacking just because you were walking to far away from him and then stands there waiting for you to get into his aggro range.
I still do like PvE. But I also want to interact with other players in as many ways as possible and this includes full loot PvP. But I won't play any full loot game anymore as long as you have no chance just because the other one has played 5times as long as you have.
Well, if playing the game will not give me an intrinsic advantage to beat you, what is my motive to play then?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
One point I think people should consider when they say they love DBZ progression. While the gear progression takes all of eternity the actual process of leveling seems to be getting shorter and shorter to the point of some games allowing you to straight up pay for a max level character.
So when the leveling process is shortened to 1-2 weeks, what is it honestly providing?
And I know a lot of people would counter with. "Well that's just the way they do it now. Back in the days of EQ and vanilla WoW it was not so simple as these youngins have it today!"
To which my counter would be. Maybe it's be shortened to a week or two because when you can be oneshot by someone with 10 levels on you, and you can't even dent their healthbar significantly, everyone wants to just get it over and done with.
Maybe if you got rid of the DBZ style powergaps, the industry could go back to the long leveling times many of you so pine for, and the market would accept that.
One point I think people should consider when they say they love DBZ progression. While the gear progression takes all of eternity the actual process of leveling seems to be getting shorter and shorter to the point of some games allowing you to straight up pay for a max level character.
So when the leveling process is shortened to 1-2 weeks, what is it honestly providing?
And I know a lot of people would counter with. "Well that's just the way they do it now. Back in the days of EQ and vanilla WoW it was not so simple as these youngins have it today!"
To which my counter would be. Maybe it's be shortened to a week or two because when you can be oneshot by someone with 10 levels on you, and you can't even dent their healthbar significantly, everyone wants to just get it over and done with.
Maybe if you got rid of the DBZ style powergaps, the industry could go back to the long leveling times many of you so pine for, and the market would accept that.
Faster leveling speed might have started out that way but it is the PvE focused games you max out fastest in.
I think it has more to do with that Wow made leveling faster after a couple of years and sales increased then. If that had anything to do with it or if they increased for another reason is anyones guess but whenever devs don't know what to do they have increased the leveling speed which means that by now the content is laid out totally wrong with most of the game the content you are done with after 2 weeks playing.
I havn't played DBZ so I ain't sure of it's style but PvP games need a low powergap.
As for PvE focused games with a little bit PvP they could just skip the PvP instead, those games have crap PvP anyways so no need to destroy the PvE as well for some crap few will bother with. If you want PvP in your game it takes an effort and you need to put the work into it that it deserves or you might as well skip it.
I still want lower powergap in PvE as well but it can be larger then in a PvP focused game or a 50/50 one (few of those exist). However should it takes longer to max out a character in a PVE focused game.
I feel that in PvE games they have gone for increasing the power instead of making combat more interesting and fun, and many newer games just go for selling stuff for whales for a couple of weeks instead of actually making a fun game that lasts a while.
The thing is that gaining power is fun but you don't need a huge increase for that and it is a terrible idea to stop gaining any power after just a couple of weeks. The endgame of a PvE game is usually terrible so rusking people into it is just stupid.
PvP is different, at least if you have more goals then just gaining personal power. A game similar to DaoC could have a very fast leveling curve but still be fun since it is the RvR part that made the game so fun, not so much just gaining personal power.
One point I think people should consider when they say they love DBZ progression. While the gear progression takes all of eternity the actual process of leveling seems to be getting shorter and shorter to the point of some games allowing you to straight up pay for a max level character.
So when the leveling process is shortened to 1-2 weeks, what is it honestly providing?
And I know a lot of people would counter with. "Well that's just the way they do it now. Back in the days of EQ and vanilla WoW it was not so simple as these youngins have it today!"
To which my counter would be. Maybe it's be shortened to a week or two because when you can be oneshot by someone with 10 levels on you, and you can't even dent their healthbar significantly, everyone wants to just get it over and done with.
Maybe if you got rid of the DBZ style powergaps, the industry could go back to the long leveling times many of you so pine for, and the market would accept that.
The problem is, if I don't gain anything for my time and effort, I can't really lose anything, as such, it all becomes void.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
That's something I really really hate as a casual player. If I meet someone and then we will never be playing again together because he makes 5 levels on Monday while I'm in training. On Tuesday we see each other online but are too far apart. Next time he comes online on Friday I am 10 lvls above because I wanted to use the little time I have to play.
Other topic community yes, but nothing more annoying than PvE only and others can KS and grief and swear and do unbelievable things to my mother and I cannot even harm them. Or if there is PvP I could hit them 5 hours straight away and they wouldn't die because I'm missing 90% of my hits and the rest is not enough to win against their standard HP reggen.
Other topic. Even P&P games are PvP. Or do you fight against an computer always doing the same moves/skills at the same time? No you play against an other person the GM and he reacts to you and tries to defeat you and doesn't stop attacking just because you were walking to far away from him and then stands there waiting for you to get into his aggro range.
I still do like PvE. But I also want to interact with other players in as many ways as possible and this includes full loot PvP. But I won't play any full loot game anymore as long as you have no chance just because the other one has played 5times as long as you have.
Well, if playing the game will not give me an intrinsic advantage to beat you, what is my motive to play then?
That's what Im trying to explain (maybe more with other posts, but I don't want to repeat anything all the time)
Why do we always need that extrinsic factors like level up and stronger items?
A game should be fun to play and own skill should matter so that the intrinsic factor (own will to get better) is triggered.
But vertical progression totally kills it. If it doesn't matter how good you become, because the major factor is extrinsic, then it kills intrinsic motivation for most people.
For myself vertical progression is like p2w (for me time is more valuable than money atm). If I have zero chance to beat someone just because he has more money/time I lose the will to even try. I'm OK with a slight advantage because someone trains/plays more. But if the time factor is the leading variable it just sucks. If you know even if you get better you still have no chance why even try?
I could go on with reasons why short matches like in MOBAs and BattleRoyals have it easier to trigger intrinsic motivation, because of their nature to have a "winner" within one play session (and other reasons) but this would be too long and too much off topic.
That's something I really really hate as a casual player. If I meet someone and then we will never be playing again together because he makes 5 levels on Monday while I'm in training. On Tuesday we see each other online but are too far apart. Next time he comes online on Friday I am 10 lvls above because I wanted to use the little time I have to play.
Other topic community yes, but nothing more annoying than PvE only and others can KS and grief and swear and do unbelievable things to my mother and I cannot even harm them. Or if there is PvP I could hit them 5 hours straight away and they wouldn't die because I'm missing 90% of my hits and the rest is not enough to win against their standard HP reggen.
Other topic. Even P&P games are PvP. Or do you fight against an computer always doing the same moves/skills at the same time? No you play against an other person the GM and he reacts to you and tries to defeat you and doesn't stop attacking just because you were walking to far away from him and then stands there waiting for you to get into his aggro range.
I still do like PvE. But I also want to interact with other players in as many ways as possible and this includes full loot PvP. But I won't play any full loot game anymore as long as you have no chance just because the other one has played 5times as long as you have.
Well, if playing the game will not give me an intrinsic advantage to beat you, what is my motive to play then?
That's what Im trying to explain (maybe more with other posts, but I don't want to repeat anything all the time)
Why do we always need that extrinsic factors like level up and stronger items?
A game should be fun to play and own skill should matter so that the intrinsic factor (own will to get better) is triggered.
But vertical progression totally kills it. If it doesn't matter how good you become, because the major factor is extrinsic, then it kills intrinsic motivation for most people.
For myself vertical progression is like p2w (for me time is more valuable than money atm). If I have zero chance to beat someone just because he has more money/time I lose the will to even try. I'm OK with a slight advantage because someone trains/plays more. But if the time factor is the leading variable it just sucks. If you know even if you get better you still have no chance why even try?
I could go on with reasons why short matches like in MOBAs and BattleRoyals have it easier to trigger intrinsic motivation, because of their nature to have a "winner" within one play session (and other reasons) but this would be too long and too much off topic.
To be honest with you, an MOBA is going to be more your game style, with hot joins and quick matches, with no long range or long term goals, no gear progression, and no levels. That is really where your going to fit.
Most MMO's today, have moved away from the gank fest you are looking for, where you can log in and kill someone for the giggles of it, then log out, and still be safe to do it again later, without fear they will crush you when you return, due to them investing into the game. Modern gamers are not going to work for something just to play a game where someone else can make an account today and take away all their work and effort.
There simply is not enough market for it.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I like progression for PVE and almost no progression for PVP.
How you play a MMO PvE?
With other people, you know, team work, community, helping each other out, foreign ideas to you I see.
As you answered unasked with more empty words without any sense, that sounds good. Team work for what? Random parties where you really do not care about the others are not team work. Helping for what? The easy mobs, that are completely soloable? Even the bosses are solo - well there are many players who hit them, but there is not really a team work. How you play MMO PvE in games like BDO, ESO or GW2? The right answer is - you do not. As the PvE is singleplayer.
Oh for a moment there I thought I was going to get something that made sense.
Yes.. to you.. teamwork, community, helping each other out, and working together, is nonsense.
I see now why you don't like MMO's.
Teamwork, community, helping each other out, and working together is not nonsense.
It happens in games like the old Lineage 2 and EVE. But these good words are nonsense when you are talking about the solo PvE in GW2, BDO, ESO and etc.
Many players are so afraid to lose, that they struggle to play. They want to PvP at safe way, to compete without any possibility to lose the competition. They know the AI is always beatable. So they just get aside from the other players.
As for the mobas - you are just an amateur. If you play with constant ranked parties and 1vs1 you will find that every loss matters. As every win too.
This coming from someone that cries that people who play more then them will have an advantage.
It's so very hard to take you seriously.
Theres a difference between: Advantage because you played more and trained to be better.
And
Advantage because you played more even though you never learned anything and still suck in terms of skill.
As for MOBAs. I like the long-lasting progression of MMOs. I just think there are many advantages to progress horizontally. If you have ever played GW1 you will know what I am saying. There are dozens of skills to chose, allowing you to make combinations that had a synergies.
Still someone who was new could beat you with his starter skills if you didn't know how to utilize your build or if you just sucked at PvP. But if you were skilled and also good at choosing the right build you had a small advantage.
As for PvE the advantage is that morebplayets can play together more easily. And if all the resources that company's spend into leveling content (which will be rushed through by most people) can go into "end content" then. It will be much easier to fulfill the PvErs demand while they also won't be at same place all the time.
This coming from someone that cries that people who play more then them will have an advantage.
It's so very hard to take you seriously.
Well I do not see why your miserable life, and a lot of free time, should be my problem in any game. If you can get advantage only with playing more time, obviously you are a bad player, so a fair gameplay shall not allow it.
No, whether you want to admit it or not, the largest governing factor of skill is still time played.
This coming from someone that cries that people who play more then them will have an advantage.
It's so very hard to take you seriously.
Well I do not see why your miserable life, and a lot of free time, should be my problem in any game. If you can get advantage only with playing more time, obviously you are a bad player, so a fair gameplay shall not allow it.
No, whether you want to admit it or not, the largest governing factor of skill is still time played.
Well, that is a huge problem for any MMORPG. This is what pushes back the casual players, but not the challenging gameplay. Remove the time gap, and many people who now play mobas, will start to play MMORPGs.
No, it's inherent to the way folks build skill. Muscle memory is hugely important, and that only comes with repetition.
Gear stats or not, someone who spends more time playing a game will generally be more skilled than their opponent. That has nothing to do with gaming, everything to do with how we learn and build skill.
No, whether you want to admit it or not, the largest governing factor of skill is still time played.
I'd actually disagree on this. Of course natural talent is a factor but natural talent tends to be the main distinguishing factor between players who have "peaked". AKA they have reached their full potential and will not get significantly better no matter how much longer they play. This only tends to happen after years of play. In early to mid stages I would agree with you that time is a more significant factor than natural talent.
But at every single stage of play, drive is a huge factor. Drive being the will to improve, and particularly the will to move out of your comfort zone and seek out information needed to improve. I'll give you a major example. Suppose you are running a simple to play build that isn't that good with a highly non-optomized keybind setup but you've been playing this build for sometime and you're very comfortable with it, maybe even reaching peak with that particular build.
You know that rethinking your keybindings and switching to a more skill based build will raise the level at which you peak out. You also know that doing so will make you a far worse player while you adjust to the new build and setup.
A high drive player is going to make the switch. A low drive player will not.
And sometimes it isn't even drive, it's just the people around you. For instance in Freelancer, my guild focused very heavily on providing excellent 1 on 1 training to incoming pilots. One of our longstanding enemy guilds did not. Pilots would have to wait weeks in that guild oftentimes to receive even the most basic training and you had to push for it to get it.
Our pilots after 24 hours in our guild were more formidable than some people who had been playing months simply because of the quality of training offered. They were given the information I personally took years to learn spaced out over a few hours through a series of tests they were meant to overcome using it, where pilots in many other guilds were expected to learn it themselves. Heck sometimes their leaders didn't even know the information covered in our basic training.
So really skill in most skillbased games is about accessing the information you need to excel and pushing yourself. Someone who pushes themselves will improve dramatically faster than someone running through the motions.
Running through the motions is perfectly sufficient in a DBZ progression game though. Generally the gear cap is an unattainable goal and the difference in gear between someone who plays consistently and someone who does not is sufficient to make up for a lack in drive on the part of the better geared player.
I'll also through out some transparency in my motives for less gear gap. While I am a very high drive player my available playtime and natural talent are both things I would rate as subpar. But I am an excellent instructor. In a DBZ style game my instruction has to be coupled with hundreds or thousands of no-lifing to really make someone formidable.
In a non-DBZ game guilds I lead are freaking dangerous simply by the fact that anyone who doesn't know what they are doing, I will work with 1-on-1 until they do. I take pride in having those who study under me surpass me eventually. As someone with slower reflexes that's my goal.
This coming from someone that cries that people who play more then them will have an advantage.
It's so very hard to take you seriously.
Well I do not see why your miserable life, and a lot of free time, should be my problem in any game. If you can get advantage only with playing more time, obviously you are a bad player, so a fair gameplay shall not allow it.
No, whether you want to admit it or not, the largest governing factor of skill is still time played.
Well, that is a huge problem for any MMORPG. This is what pushes back the casual players, but not the challenging gameplay. Remove the time gap, and many people who now play mobas, will start to play MMORPGs.
No, it's inherent to the way folks build skill. Muscle memory is hugely important, and that only comes with repetition.
Gear stats or not, someone who spends more time playing a game will generally be more skilled than their opponent. That has nothing to do with gaming, everything to do with how we learn and build skill.
While this might be true for some people it doesn't count for others. Its like nearly every aspect in life. Some people spend all their time training something but will never be as good as someone who either shows more talet, has better physical conditions or is just a bit smarter. Sports, job, ... you can see this all the time.
My gf for example never played a MMO. After 3 months she made more damage in FFXIV Alexander 11 than everyone else in the guild. She was even on par with the guild leader of a befriended raiding guild who played the same class since the beginning. Ok I always gave her hints and told her how those games work but still...
Same with PvP. You sometimes have people being new to the game but you can clearly see that they do understand what to do, while others will never learn it.
You're right. At a certain level, muscle memory, theory crafting and teamwork training might help you. But for the most people this is not the factor.
And that's what is really annoying. You can clearly see that your enemy sucks. His movement is bad. He seems to have absolutely no understanding of other classes and even at his own class he seems to not understand who to utilize it right. But still you have no chance, because he played more.
@Ungood ; Either you didn't read my posts before or you really lack in reading comprehension. I don't want to bank and I also don't want to go on a killing spree in games.
What I want to have (since starting with Meridian in 1997) is the freedom to kill someone if he is annoying, trolling or harassing me. And it should hurt to be killed. But it should also hurt to go kill people without a reason. What I want to have is some kind of Fantasy-world simulation. Where your decisions have consequences. And for this you also need horizontal progression so that it won't happen that some people become god like and can do what they want with others. (And for other reasons) The whole topic is too complicated to write it down, but reading my other posts could give you an idea of my vision.
Comments
Starting a conversation with "Nope" is not the best way to convey a concurrence and your other points were all about how you cease working on your personal progression to allow you to stay in sync with others.
Not viable options to a player like him (or me) as in my case I play one character and only one until it "tops out."
I've done those other activities you mentioned and I find them hateful, as I do any activity which distracts from progression.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Ungood getting to the bottom of the issue as always.
What kind of imbecilic nonsense is this.
If I meet someone and then we will never be playing again together because he makes 5 levels on Monday while I'm in training. On Tuesday we see each other online but are too far apart.
Next time he comes online on Friday I am 10 lvls above because I wanted to use the little time I have to play.
Other topic community yes, but nothing more annoying than PvE only and others can KS and grief and swear and do unbelievable things to my mother and I cannot even harm them.
Or if there is PvP I could hit them 5 hours straight away and they wouldn't die because I'm missing 90% of my hits and the rest is not enough to win against their standard HP reggen.
Other topic. Even P&P games are PvP. Or do you fight against an computer always doing the same moves/skills at the same time?
No you play against an other person the GM and he reacts to you and tries to defeat you and doesn't stop attacking just because you were walking to far away from him and then stands there waiting for you to get into his aggro range.
I still do like PvE.
But I also want to interact with other players in as many ways as possible and this includes full loot PvP.
But I won't play any full loot game anymore as long as you have no chance just because the other one has played 5times as long as you have.
1997 Meridian 59 'til 2019 ESO
Waiting for Camelot Unchained & Pantheon
The implication is that the environment is smarter and presents more of a challenge.
Of course MMO PvP generally means competing directly against other player characters which is very different than facing an intelligent environment.
Ultimately the closest thing to P&P in a MMO would be a more random and unpredictable environment populated by more intelligent AI. I really wish that's something MMOs strived for more.
Obviously what we have in the way of AI right now is pretty limited but even if you compare MMOs to other existing games... In Skyrim if I go attack an NPC fort every NPC in the area will aggro and I have to kill them all. Ones a few rooms away might not hear but just walk into any fort in Skyrim, blast an NPC with a fireball, and see how much aggro you get. In most MMOs if I start attacking goblins with a 15 foot aggro range, and there is a goblin 16 foot away, they will stand there and watch me slaughter their friends.
I also think we've moved to a point technologically were procedural generation and data analytics would allow for much more unconstant and adaptive challenges. Why nobody has tried to take advantage of that yet in the MMO space is beyond me.
Ehhhh, there's a fine line. Making everyone the same, or close to it is boring unless it's strictly PvP and even then there needs to be flavor between one class and another.
Doesn't sound fun honestly, as progression would be very stale.
IMO the best way to combat this is with long-term horizontal progression. More MMOs need things like the EQ epic weapon quests, or FFXI Artifact Weapon/Armor quests. Things that are not tied to the gear treadmill of grinding out dailies for tokens.
To be clear I'm good with those systems, just not with them being the end-all, be-all.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
/jk
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
So when the leveling process is shortened to 1-2 weeks, what is it honestly providing?
And I know a lot of people would counter with. "Well that's just the way they do it now. Back in the days of EQ and vanilla WoW it was not so simple as these youngins have it today!"
To which my counter would be. Maybe it's be shortened to a week or two because when you can be oneshot by someone with 10 levels on you, and you can't even dent their healthbar significantly, everyone wants to just get it over and done with.
Maybe if you got rid of the DBZ style powergaps, the industry could go back to the long leveling times many of you so pine for, and the market would accept that.
I think it has more to do with that Wow made leveling faster after a couple of years and sales increased then. If that had anything to do with it or if they increased for another reason is anyones guess but whenever devs don't know what to do they have increased the leveling speed which means that by now the content is laid out totally wrong with most of the game the content you are done with after 2 weeks playing.
I havn't played DBZ so I ain't sure of it's style but PvP games need a low powergap.
As for PvE focused games with a little bit PvP they could just skip the PvP instead, those games have crap PvP anyways so no need to destroy the PvE as well for some crap few will bother with. If you want PvP in your game it takes an effort and you need to put the work into it that it deserves or you might as well skip it.
I still want lower powergap in PvE as well but it can be larger then in a PvP focused game or a 50/50 one (few of those exist). However should it takes longer to max out a character in a PVE focused game.
I feel that in PvE games they have gone for increasing the power instead of making combat more interesting and fun, and many newer games just go for selling stuff for whales for a couple of weeks instead of actually making a fun game that lasts a while.
The thing is that gaining power is fun but you don't need a huge increase for that and it is a terrible idea to stop gaining any power after just a couple of weeks. The endgame of a PvE game is usually terrible so rusking people into it is just stupid.
PvP is different, at least if you have more goals then just gaining personal power. A game similar to DaoC could have a very fast leveling curve but still be fun since it is the RvR part that made the game so fun, not so much just gaining personal power.
Why do we always need that extrinsic factors like level up and stronger items?
A game should be fun to play and own skill should matter so that the intrinsic factor (own will to get better) is triggered.
But vertical progression totally kills it.
If it doesn't matter how good you become, because the major factor is extrinsic, then it kills intrinsic motivation for most people.
For myself vertical progression is like p2w (for me time is more valuable than money atm). If I have zero chance to beat someone just because he has more money/time I lose the will to even try.
I'm OK with a slight advantage because someone trains/plays more. But if the time factor is the leading variable it just sucks.
If you know even if you get better you still have no chance why even try?
I could go on with reasons why short matches like in MOBAs and BattleRoyals have it easier to trigger intrinsic motivation, because of their nature to have a "winner" within one play session (and other reasons) but this would be too long and too much off topic.
1997 Meridian 59 'til 2019 ESO
Waiting for Camelot Unchained & Pantheon
Most MMO's today, have moved away from the gank fest you are looking for, where you can log in and kill someone for the giggles of it, then log out, and still be safe to do it again later, without fear they will crush you when you return, due to them investing into the game. Modern gamers are not going to work for something just to play a game where someone else can make an account today and take away all their work and effort.
There simply is not enough market for it.
Advantage because you played more and trained to be better.
And
Advantage because you played more even though you never learned anything and still suck in terms of skill.
As for MOBAs. I like the long-lasting progression of MMOs.
I just think there are many advantages to progress horizontally.
If you have ever played GW1 you will know what I am saying.
There are dozens of skills to chose, allowing you to make combinations that had a synergies.
Still someone who was new could beat you with his starter skills if you didn't know how to utilize your build or if you just sucked at PvP.
But if you were skilled and also good at choosing the right build you had a small advantage.
As for PvE the advantage is that morebplayets can play together more easily.
And if all the resources that company's spend into leveling content (which will be rushed through by most people) can go into "end content" then. It will be much easier to fulfill the PvErs demand while they also won't be at same place all the time.
1997 Meridian 59 'til 2019 ESO
Waiting for Camelot Unchained & Pantheon
Gear stats or not, someone who spends more time playing a game will generally be more skilled than their opponent. That has nothing to do with gaming, everything to do with how we learn and build skill.
But at every single stage of play, drive is a huge factor. Drive being the will to improve, and particularly the will to move out of your comfort zone and seek out information needed to improve. I'll give you a major example. Suppose you are running a simple to play build that isn't that good with a highly non-optomized keybind setup but you've been playing this build for sometime and you're very comfortable with it, maybe even reaching peak with that particular build.
You know that rethinking your keybindings and switching to a more skill based build will raise the level at which you peak out. You also know that doing so will make you a far worse player while you adjust to the new build and setup.
A high drive player is going to make the switch. A low drive player will not.
And sometimes it isn't even drive, it's just the people around you. For instance in Freelancer, my guild focused very heavily on providing excellent 1 on 1 training to incoming pilots. One of our longstanding enemy guilds did not. Pilots would have to wait weeks in that guild oftentimes to receive even the most basic training and you had to push for it to get it.
Our pilots after 24 hours in our guild were more formidable than some people who had been playing months simply because of the quality of training offered. They were given the information I personally took years to learn spaced out over a few hours through a series of tests they were meant to overcome using it, where pilots in many other guilds were expected to learn it themselves. Heck sometimes their leaders didn't even know the information covered in our basic training.
So really skill in most skillbased games is about accessing the information you need to excel and pushing yourself. Someone who pushes themselves will improve dramatically faster than someone running through the motions.
Running through the motions is perfectly sufficient in a DBZ progression game though. Generally the gear cap is an unattainable goal and the difference in gear between someone who plays consistently and someone who does not is sufficient to make up for a lack in drive on the part of the better geared player.
In a non-DBZ game guilds I lead are freaking dangerous simply by the fact that anyone who doesn't know what they are doing, I will work with 1-on-1 until they do. I take pride in having those who study under me surpass me eventually. As someone with slower reflexes that's my goal.
Its like nearly every aspect in life. Some people spend all their time training something but will never be as good as someone who either shows more talet, has better physical conditions or is just a bit smarter.
Sports, job, ... you can see this all the time.
My gf for example never played a MMO.
After 3 months she made more damage in FFXIV Alexander 11 than everyone else in the guild.
She was even on par with the guild leader of a befriended raiding guild who played the same class since the beginning.
Ok I always gave her hints and told her how those games work but still...
Same with PvP. You sometimes have people being new to the game but you can clearly see that they do understand what to do, while others will never learn it.
You're right. At a certain level, muscle memory, theory crafting and teamwork training might help you. But for the most people this is not the factor.
And that's what is really annoying.
You can clearly see that your enemy sucks. His movement is bad. He seems to have absolutely no understanding of other classes and even at his own class he seems to not understand who to utilize it right.
But still you have no chance, because he played more.
@Ungood ;
Either you didn't read my posts before or you really lack in reading comprehension.
I don't want to bank and I also don't want to go on a killing spree in games.
What I want to have (since starting with Meridian in 1997) is the freedom to kill someone if he is annoying, trolling or harassing me. And it should hurt to be killed. But it should also hurt to go kill people without a reason.
What I want to have is some kind of Fantasy-world simulation. Where your decisions have consequences.
And for this you also need horizontal progression so that it won't happen that some people become god like and can do what they want with others. (And for other reasons)
The whole topic is too complicated to write it down, but reading my other posts could give you an idea of my vision.
1997 Meridian 59 'til 2019 ESO
Waiting for Camelot Unchained & Pantheon