With the thousands of times I have seen people type, "Not a MMO" he kinda has a point.
His point is that sites are "lying" in order to get clicks and they are purposefully deceiving players by "mislabeling" games.
As opposed to the definition evolving, especially because game developers are also calling their games "mmo's" even if they don't fit the first definition.
Well I don't consider hearthstone, league of legends, overwatch, or world of tanks or dozens of other examples spread out over all the sites he covered MMOs at all.
Sorry but if it's just multiplayer it's not a MMO otherwise MMO is meaningless.
That's great. And I have no issue with that. I don't consider them mmo's either. I also don't care what they are called because that's just too nerdy for me.
But if their developers are calling them mmo's (and I don't know if those specific games are called mmo's by their developers) then one can take the fight to them (*insert rolled eyes here*) or roll with the punches, live with it and move on.
I get a magazine called the Radio Times, when it began in 1923 it only covered radio. Now it covers TV, films in the cinema, books, money, holiday travel, various puzzles and of course radio. It did not change its name, it did not need to or want to, it broadened its coverage just like MMORPG.com has.
There have been categorisation issues, but its a grey area what do you expect? I have no issues with WoT being on the site, they call it an Action MMO, not ideal but a good enough category.
I am here for the MMOs, the MMO like games, the RPG reviews, the hardware reviews. But if Suzie wants to fly of somewhere and do a travel article I am not going to be posting to say "That is not a MMO".
And that's a perfect example.
It's like some people have never left the house and have no idea as to how the world has and will continue to change around them.
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As @Iselin mentioned, the issue isn't about change. It's okay to have a debate about borderline titles due to technical improvements allowing devs to blur the line, but including titles such as MOBAs isn't debatable. They aren't, and the best argument for their inclusion has been either A) journalism leading the way, or B ) apathy about the distinction.
There's a simple resolution for both that doesn't include ignoring clear reality. As Iselin mentioned, I don't think it's done maliciously on the part of journalists. But they haven't done much to clarify or correct it, either.
I will leave this here from 2014 -- and to say that the MMO industry has gotten even more scarce in terms of news in the intervening 4 years is to understate things greatly, hence the further inclusion of MOBAs, multiplayer shooters, battle royale games and survival games to name a few.
"Over the next several years, something will be very apparent to the MMORPG faithful: MMORPGs will be released that aren't officially being called MMORPGs by their developers and publishers. Why? Because someone, somewhere, with all their marketing research and statistical analysis decided that "MMORPG" pretty much means World of Warcraft, nerds in the basement, and incidentally - the guy from South Park's beloved WoW episode.
The other side is that this means the genre's almost outgrown itself. More and more games are incorporating MMO-like features and online play into their core design. You'll have Bungie and Ubisoft claim often enough that Destiny or The Division "aren't really" MMOs. And perhaps, they're right. Destiny won't be a fully-on-all-the-time shared world in that you can't get away from other people. It has a core single-player narrative, but events happen in the massive game world that lead you into interacting and playing alongside others... and that almost sounds like the ideal theme park MMO, doesn't it?"
I got crucified on this site for suggesting that games like Division or Destiny are MMO because it didn't fit their OLD definition of MMO.
Good thing we no longer use the "old definitions" of what a dog or cat is....
Wait, we do....same for MMORPGS. No need to change what is easily understood.
Not sure how this thread spilled into this conversation, but again:
There is a difference between a Tiger and a Tabby Cat. When new information presents itself we make adjustments. Its why we have different types of tigers and different types of Tabby Cats. There isn't only ONE type of Cat.
There is a difference between an MMO-RPG (WoW) and an MMO-FPS (Destiny). Some people use the term "MMO-Lite". Whatever you want to say, you cannot avoid the "MMO" part. That's my point. There isn't one type of MMO.
Both are MMOs. It's not complicated. AND yes "What is easily understood" changes all the time, actually every day because of new information. How can you disregard the fact that new information or data can completely change everything you knew about a subject?
What really baffles me is how hard people are still fighting whats happening instead of embracing it. The reason is that they cant let go of the word "Massively". The MMO is obviously evolving. Don't be so attached to it meaning MASSIVELY or DaOC or some other old shit.
MMO (2014-2018) - Online Multiplayer game with RPG features, smaller instanced group spaces/Zones.
MMO (2000-2013) - Online Multiplayer game with RPG features with larger instanced group spaces/zones.
Again.
Destiny has RPG, FPS, and Multiplayer online features but it's in a smaller game space.
WoW has RPG and multiplayer online features but it's in a larger game space.
Hell, what about SWTOR? Is that not an "MMO" according to you? It's not Massive enough?
Guild Wars 1 had about the same or smaller zones than Destiny. The Guild Wars wiki says "Guild Wars is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game series developed by ArenaNet and published by NCSOFT"
Stop being so attached to the Word "MASSIVELY" its a buzzword from the early 2000's to sell box copies. If we want to be honest and keep it 100, MASSIVE is like 50k players AT ONCE playing in the same zone. That's massive and no game has that. Who can say they have counted even 1k people in a zone?? ....So there isn't a TRUE "MASSIVELY" game.
When they say "Our game has over 12m players" they are talking about accounts created, not players in a damn zone. Jesus.
I never said any game with CO-OP is MMO... that's a false narrative forced on everyone who agrees that the term MMO has a new meaning. As if we somehow lack the brain power to understand the concept of both.
Destiny has everything in common with WoW except the Zone sizes.
I'm so sick of and over this tired ass argument.
This is about the MMO genre of games today vs the early 2000's buzzword MASSIVELY.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
People complaining that D3 is on here and isn't an "MMORPG" yet it is Online, there is alot of people playing it, you do gain levels. So I would say it is Massively multiplayer (Being theres alot of people and you can play it with others) It is online, it is an rpg.....
And this my friends, is why language is important.
Because for well over a decade MMO has meant a game where hundreds or thousands of players can occupy the same world at the same time.
And then a few confusing headers starts making them act like there are drugs in the water and putting all kinds of crazy ideas in their heads.
Make Diablo an MMORPG and there isn't a single online game that doesn't qualify as an MMO.
Diablo isnt a MMO. Its a CO-OP game. There is a difference.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
I just want to add I think this site does a fantastic job of covering not only mmo's but other genre's as well, its why I come here . I also love the way articles are updated daily and the fact the staff here participates in chat which gives the forums and website a very personal feel. With that said some of you guys need to chill, its not like OP attacked your first born..
MMO sites like us were given a choice - adapt or die. If we did not expand our coverage to RPG's, MOBA's, etc we would have had to shutter the site and walk away. While our domain name, which we have had for 16+ years implies we might only cover the few MMORPG's in the world it is not sustainable as a business. It is just a domain - it does not mean we have to pigeon-hole ourselves.
Today we are more or less a gaming site - with a passion for MMO games.
That isn't what the video or the OP is saying at all. It's clear the site was founded on MMOs, hence the url MMORPG.COM but when you start categorizing games as MMOs when they are clearly not MMOs doesn't really make any sense. I don't go to a car dealership to buy a boat, but that doesn't mean they can't sell boats. It means they won't try to sell me a boat by telling me it's a car.
They don't classify games that are not MMOs as MMOs. More importantly though, gamers can't classify what an MMO is either, there are clear cut MMOs and there are games that developers classify as them that may not fit a standard idea.
If you go to a car dealership and see this
You can argue whatever you want, "no it's a car" "no it's a boat" all day long, but in the end, it doesn't matter what you classify it as. You'll still only buy it if it's something you like, and if you are playing games based ONLY on their genre classification and not by what interests you, that's a sad type of gamer to be.
As @Iselin mentioned, the issue isn't about change. It's okay to have a debate about borderline titles due to technical improvements allowing devs to blur the line, but including titles such as MOBAs isn't debatable. They aren't, and the best argument for their inclusion has been either A) journalism leading the way, or B ) apathy about the distinction.
There's a simple resolution for both that doesn't include ignoring clear reality. As Iselin mentioned, I don't think it's done maliciously on the part of journalists. But they haven't done much to clarify or correct it, either.
Yeah but language doesn't evolve because of "strict rules" and adherence to protocol.
So if Journalists and developers and marketers are adding to that definition and they succeed then it's a done deal.
If I walk out of my house and call a car a truck and for some reason it catches on and more and more people start doing it then forever more it will be a truck.
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As @Iselin mentioned, the issue isn't about change. It's okay to have a debate about borderline titles due to technical improvements allowing devs to blur the line, but including titles such as MOBAs isn't debatable. They aren't, and the best argument for their inclusion has been either A) journalism leading the way, or B ) apathy about the distinction.
There's a simple resolution for both that doesn't include ignoring clear reality. As Iselin mentioned, I don't think it's done maliciously on the part of journalists. But they haven't done much to clarify or correct it, either.
Yeah but language doesn't evolve because of "strict rules" and adherence to protocol.
So if Journalists and developers and marketers are adding to that definition and they succeed then it's a done deal.
If I walk out of my house and call a car a truck and for some reason it catches on and more and more people start doing it then forever more it will be a truck.
A car with truck features is called a crossover car. Google it.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
As @Iselin mentioned, the issue isn't about change. It's okay to have a debate about borderline titles due to technical improvements allowing devs to blur the line, but including titles such as MOBAs isn't debatable. They aren't, and the best argument for their inclusion has been either A) journalism leading the way, or B ) apathy about the distinction.
There's a simple resolution for both that doesn't include ignoring clear reality. As Iselin mentioned, I don't think it's done maliciously on the part of journalists. But they haven't done much to clarify or correct it, either.
Yeah but language doesn't evolve because of "strict rules" and adherence to protocol.
So if Journalists and developers and marketers are adding to that definition and they succeed then it's a done deal.
If I walk out of my house and call a car a truck and for some reason it catches on and more and more people start doing it then forever more it will be a truck.
A car with truck features is called a crossover car. Google it.
no I was being specific. A car.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
As @Iselin mentioned, the issue isn't about change. It's okay to have a debate about borderline titles due to technical improvements allowing devs to blur the line, but including titles such as MOBAs isn't debatable. They aren't, and the best argument for their inclusion has been either A) journalism leading the way, or B ) apathy about the distinction.
There's a simple resolution for both that doesn't include ignoring clear reality. As Iselin mentioned, I don't think it's done maliciously on the part of journalists. But they haven't done much to clarify or correct it, either.
Yeah but language doesn't evolve because of "strict rules" and adherence to protocol.
So if Journalists and developers and marketers are adding to that definition and they succeed then it's a done deal.
If I walk out of my house and call a car a truck and for some reason it catches on and more and more people start doing it then forever more it will be a truck.
A car with truck features is called a crossover car. Google it.
no I was being specific. A car.
Yea but there is reason people would say a car is truck. They wouldnt say it if it was clearly a car, there has to be enough truck there for people to question what they are looking at.
Nobody is gonna look at a Honda Civic and call it a truck bro. That's not whats happening here.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Not sure how this thread spilled into this conversation, but again:
There is a difference between a Tiger and a Tabby Cat. When new information presents itself we make adjustments. Its why we have different types of tigers and different types of Tabby Cats. There isn't only ONE type of Cat.
There is a difference between an MMO-RPG (WoW) and an MMO-FPS (Destiny). Some people use the term "MMO-Lite". Whatever you want to say, you cannot avoid the "MMO" part. That's my point. There isn't one type of MMO.
Both are MMOs. It's not complicated. AND yes "What is easily understood" changes all the time, actually every day because of new information. How can you disregard the fact that new information or data can completely change everything you knew about a subject?
What really baffles me is how hard people are still fighting whats happening instead of embracing it. The reason is that they cant let go of the word "Massively". The MMO is obviously evolving. Don't be so attached to it meaning MASSIVELY or DaOC or some other old shit.
MMO (2014-2018) - Online Multiplayer game with RPG features, smaller instanced group spaces/Zones.
MMO (2000-2013) - Online Multiplayer game with RPG features with larger instanced group spaces/zones.
Again.
Destiny has RPG, FPS, and Multiplayer online features but it's in a smaller game space.
WoW has RPG and multiplayer online features but it's in a larger game space.
Hell, what about SWTOR? Is that not an "MMO" according to you? It's not Massive enough?
Guild Wars 1 had about the same or smaller zones than Destiny. The Guild Wars wiki says "Guild Wars is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game series developed by ArenaNet and published by NCSOFT"
Stop being so attached to the Word "MASSIVELY" its a buzzword from the early 2000's to sell box copies. If we want to be honest and keep it 100, MASSIVE is like 50k players AT ONCE playing in the same zone. That's massive and no game has that. Who can say they have counted even 1k people in a zone?? ....So there isn't a TRUE "MASSIVELY" game.
When they say "Our game has over 12m players" they are talking about accounts created, not players in a damn zone. Jesus.
I never said any game with CO-OP is MMO... that's a false narrative forced on everyone who agrees that the term MMO has a new meaning. As if we somehow lack the brain power to understand the concept of both.
Destiny has everything in common with WoW except the Zone sizes.
I'm so sick of and over this tired ass argument.
This is about the MMO genre of games today vs the early 2000's buzzword MASSIVELY.
If you don't care about the word "massive" then drop it.
What the word massive is meant to signify is hundreds or thousands of players inhabiting the same space at the same time. That word may not be important to those who see MMOs as small group co-op gear grinders but it is important to those of us looking for particular content such as territorial control, massive battles, open world PvP etc.
That's why Destiny is not an MMOFPS. Planetside/Planetside 2 are MMOFPS. FPS games with massive scale battles where all combatants are on the same field at the same time.
It's fine if you don't care about those features and "Multiplayer Online RPG / Multiplayer Online FPS" etc. are enough to satisfy you. But when you start calling it "Massively" those of us who actually care about that title for one reason or another are going to call bullcrap. So why highjack a title that you say doesn't matter?
On the one hand it's truly sad how much these fake mmo sites have watered down the acronym.
On the other hand mmo devs have delivered such garbage for the past decade, these sites literally have nothing to talk about. So it's either throw in the towel or pretend Diablo 3 news belongs here until something decent arrives.
Well, if you want to get picky...
Initialism...MMO is an initialism, not an acronym.
/endsubtlepoint
I have never heard of this distinction before....thanks for the grammatical tip.
I didn't know the difference either and had to look it up.
The funny part. After the top 3 or 4 useful entries explaining the difference were sites, blogs, forums, and social media entries for people arguing over what belonged under each category. Each explains why putting things in boxes their way is the right way. My favorite question, "If you pronounce an initialism as a word does it become an acronym?" with the ensuing enlightening comment chain.
It was like a creepy parallel world that mirrors ours only with grammar as their game instead of games. I'm fairly certain those people are being punished for something.
Hell has several rings, theirs is just a different one then ours. Thanks Dante!
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
As @Iselin mentioned, the issue isn't about change. It's okay to have a debate about borderline titles due to technical improvements allowing devs to blur the line, but including titles such as MOBAs isn't debatable. They aren't, and the best argument for their inclusion has been either A) journalism leading the way, or B ) apathy about the distinction.
There's a simple resolution for both that doesn't include ignoring clear reality. As Iselin mentioned, I don't think it's done maliciously on the part of journalists. But they haven't done much to clarify or correct it, either.
Clarify or correct what? And what resolution are you suggesting? You left those out of your post.
The inclusion of things such as MOBAs in financial reports on the MMO industry, devs classifying games that clearly aren't MMOs as MMOs. There's incredible inconsistency in insisting WoT is an MMO, but refusing to even attempt to make the argument for titles like Battlefield or CoD, despite there being absolutely nothing about WoT that would qualify it where it would disqualify Battlefield, Halo, or CoD.
The solution to A is for journalists to, really, do the essence of what they're there for: provide accuracy and cut through the BS to bring us news and events in the game space without merely parroting the devs. That includes cutting through BS like devs classifying their games incorrectly for marketing or whatever other reason.
The solution to B is to just drop MMO completely. If it's the same as multiplayer, then MMO means nothing and is superfluous. Just call then all multiplayer. I've said this before. For all the folks saying they don't care, I haven't seen many in favor of doing the obvious to render the entire debate moot.
As @Iselin mentioned, the issue isn't about change. It's okay to have a debate about borderline titles due to technical improvements allowing devs to blur the line, but including titles such as MOBAs isn't debatable. They aren't, and the best argument for their inclusion has been either A) journalism leading the way, or B ) apathy about the distinction.
There's a simple resolution for both that doesn't include ignoring clear reality. As Iselin mentioned, I don't think it's done maliciously on the part of journalists. But they haven't done much to clarify or correct it, either.
Yeah but language doesn't evolve because of "strict rules" and adherence to protocol.
So if Journalists and developers and marketers are adding to that definition and they succeed then it's a done deal.
If I walk out of my house and call a car a truck and for some reason it catches on and more and more people start doing it then forever more it will be a truck.
A car with truck features is called a crossover car. Google it.
no I was being specific. A car.
Yea but there is reason people would say a car is truck. They wouldnt say it if it was clearly a car, there has to be enough truck there for people to question what they are looking at.
Nobody is gonna look at a Honda Civic and call it a truck bro. That's not whats happening here.
That wasn't the point.
Just like in certain areas all sodas are called coke ("they wouldn't say it was if it was clearly 'something else'" right?)
In other areas all soda is called "pop".
If for whatever reason a slang term, a colloquialism "whatever" caught on, then the name would change.
So the first "car" was not "car". It actually had other names, horseless carriage being one among many.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
As @Iselin mentioned, the issue isn't about change. It's okay to have a debate about borderline titles due to technical improvements allowing devs to blur the line, but including titles such as MOBAs isn't debatable. They aren't, and the best argument for their inclusion has been either A) journalism leading the way, or B ) apathy about the distinction.
There's a simple resolution for both that doesn't include ignoring clear reality. As Iselin mentioned, I don't think it's done maliciously on the part of journalists. But they haven't done much to clarify or correct it, either.
Yeah but language doesn't evolve because of "strict rules" and adherence to protocol.
So if Journalists and developers and marketers are adding to that definition and they succeed then it's a done deal.
If I walk out of my house and call a car a truck and for some reason it catches on and more and more people start doing it then forever more it will be a truck.
A car with truck features is called a crossover car. Google it.
no I was being specific. A car.
Yea but there is reason people would say a car is truck. They wouldnt say it if it was clearly a car, there has to be enough truck there for people to question what they are looking at.
Nobody is gonna look at a Honda Civic and call it a truck bro. That's not whats happening here.
That wasn't the point.
Just like in certain areas all sodas are called coke ("they wouldn't say it was if it was clearly 'something else'" right?)
In other areas all soda is called "pop".
If for whatever reason a slang term, a colloquialism "whatever" caught on, then the name would change.
So the first "car" was not "car". It actually had other names, horseless carriage being one among many.
The biggest problem has been mmorpg.com has an identity crisis and has for countless years. Most of us here know it and can deal with it but to a new comer they are so confused of what the site is.
A facelift has been in order 5yrs ago, but a rebranding is really what you need. Stop being tied down to a domain. Keep it, sure, hell maybe even us it to display mmorpg content only on a brand new branding platform but for the love of god get a new name and a new domain.
If mmorpg.com needs help give me a pm, the company I work for does exactly this. We find out who you are and what you do not only from the standpoint of the verb but deep down in the culture, to the bottom line of successful branding as well as web development, tech and strategies.
What even happened with the attempted facelift lately did the developers bail?
[[ DEAD ]] - Funny - I deleted my account on the site using the cancel account button. Forum user is separate and still exists with no way of deleting it. Delete it admins. Do it, this ends now.
With the thousands of times I have seen people type, "Not a MMO" he kinda has a point.
His point is that sites are "lying" in order to get clicks and they are purposefully deceiving players by "mislabeling" games.
As opposed to the definition evolving, especially because game developers are also calling their games "mmo's" even if they don't fit the first definition.
Well I don't consider hearthstone, league of legends, overwatch, or world of tanks or dozens of other examples spread out over all the sites he covered MMOs at all.
Sorry but if it's just multiplayer it's not a MMO otherwise MMO is meaningless.
That's great. And I have no issue with that. I don't consider them mmo's either. I also don't care what they are called because that's just too nerdy for me.
But if their developers are calling them mmo's (and I don't know if those specific games are called mmo's by their developers) then one can take the fight to them (*insert rolled eyes here*) or roll with the punches, live with it and move on.
From my experience, the developers and publishers very rarely get it wrong. If you look at MOBAs, or Destiny / The Division, and other borderline titles, 99% of the time the developers are correct and deliberately avoid calling their games MMOs. I believe this is due to legalities as calling their game an MMO would be false advertising. There is, of course, the occasional company that does get it wrong, but from what I've seen it is mostly the super low quality games and browser games getting it wrong, never the games we usually discuss on this site.
It is actually gaming journalists who get it wrong most often.
Some get it wrong accidentally, typically gaming journalists who don't often cover MMOs and thus don't know much about the genre.
Some get it wrong deliberately.
Some journalists use the revenue / clicks argument. The MMO genre is dying so they need to cover non-MMOs in order to increase clicks and revenue. This is a perfectly valid reason for covering more genres, but it's a poor excuse to start mislabeling games. Just man up and explain why you're covering more genres, we all understand that aspect fine.
Some journalists use the "features" argument. This goes along the lines of comparing features in actual MMOs to features in non-MMOs and if there are enough similarities, call it an MMO. Again, this is a perfectly valid reason for covering more games as there is definitely cross-over appeal, but it's another poor excuse for mislabeling games. It ignores the English language and ignores the only unique selling point of the genre - massively multiplayer. It also tends to show a feature bias, as for me, being massively multiplayer is the most important feature but journalists seem happy to write it off as inconsequential.
(I also have a side-theory to this argument: due to the nature of their jobs, I have the feeling that gaming journalists naturally don't care about player caps. They have to game jump so often that having a high player cap - being massively multiplayer - doesn't factor into their enjoyment because they don't stick around long enough to see the effects. but, i may well be wrong on this count having never been a gaming journalist myself)
Some use the "words change meaning over time" argument. Whilst words do indeed change meaning over time, the words "massively multiplayer online" haven't in this context. To make matters worse, it is the journalists who are driving the change in meaning, rather than journalists responding to how the public use the terminology. But, it doesn't matter either way, journalists are supposed to be better than that, educating and informing us, not misleading us.
I don't know what the solution is. My preference would be to clearly define the term on your own website and then just be consistent. That way, we at least know what the journalist means when they say something is or isn't an MMO. At the moment, all we have is confusion and arguments.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
As @Iselin mentioned, the issue isn't about change. It's okay to have a debate about borderline titles due to technical improvements allowing devs to blur the line, but including titles such as MOBAs isn't debatable. They aren't, and the best argument for their inclusion has been either A) journalism leading the way, or B ) apathy about the distinction.
There's a simple resolution for both that doesn't include ignoring clear reality. As Iselin mentioned, I don't think it's done maliciously on the part of journalists. But they haven't done much to clarify or correct it, either.
Yeah but language doesn't evolve because of "strict rules" and adherence to protocol.
So if Journalists and developers and marketers are adding to that definition and they succeed then it's a done deal.
If I walk out of my house and call a car a truck and for some reason it catches on and more and more people start doing it then forever more it will be a truck.
A car with truck features is called a crossover car. Google it.
no I was being specific. A car.
Yea but there is reason people would say a car is truck. They wouldnt say it if it was clearly a car, there has to be enough truck there for people to question what they are looking at.
Nobody is gonna look at a Honda Civic and call it a truck bro. That's not whats happening here.
That wasn't the point.
Just like in certain areas all sodas are called coke ("they wouldn't say it was if it was clearly 'something else'" right?)
In other areas all soda is called "pop".
If for whatever reason a slang term, a colloquialism "whatever" caught on, then the name would change.
So the first "car" was not "car". It actually had other names, horseless carriage being one among many.
you mean MOTOR VEHICLES?! blasphemer!
lol see!!?!?!
Also, just found this:
A lorry is a large, flat bed truck, covered or open,
for carrying goods. The word was in use for certain kinds of freight
carrying rail cars long before motor vehicles were invented and it has
been around since the early 19th century.
I can see the rail car people going nuts "why are you calling that a Lorry!?!? It's clearly not a Lorry!"
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I kind of agree with this guy. Too often and you can even see it in his video do you do a search for an MMORPG and you get games that are not MMORPGS. This is done so people can get clicks. This is why I think the Ad driven internet will in time fade. People are getting tired of searching for something and other people using key words to get clicks. Think of it like this, its like in WOW when you have a guild recruiting, they go out in trade chat and spam, BEST NEW RAIDING GUILD JOIN US!. Yet you look they have 8 people, they never raided together and have nothing to back them up. You also get this in the news with CNN, Fox, MSNBC and the rest giving out click bait titles and garbage in the first paragraph because people dont read so they make a assumption based on not reading the article.
I think MMORPG does need to start moving away from this methodology. I no longer listen to the hype on the next best MMORPG from sites like MMORPG.com because I know that they are making money from the publishers to be click bait. This is why I listen directly to the publishers, and players who played the games before I even spend time or money on a game. For far too long the money as come from ads and the people with the money for reviews on games. It no longer works and we are in a paradigm shift now.
As @Iselin mentioned, the issue isn't about change. It's okay to have a debate about borderline titles due to technical improvements allowing devs to blur the line, but including titles such as MOBAs isn't debatable. They aren't, and the best argument for their inclusion has been either A) journalism leading the way, or B ) apathy about the distinction.
There's a simple resolution for both that doesn't include ignoring clear reality. As Iselin mentioned, I don't think it's done maliciously on the part of journalists. But they haven't done much to clarify or correct it, either.
Yeah but language doesn't evolve because of "strict rules" and adherence to protocol.
So if Journalists and developers and marketers are adding to that definition and they succeed then it's a done deal.
If I walk out of my house and call a car a truck and for some reason it catches on and more and more people start doing it then forever more it will be a truck.
A car with truck features is called a crossover car. Google it.
no I was being specific. A car.
Yea but there is reason people would say a car is truck. They wouldnt say it if it was clearly a car, there has to be enough truck there for people to question what they are looking at.
Nobody is gonna look at a Honda Civic and call it a truck bro. That's not whats happening here.
That wasn't the point.
Just like in certain areas all sodas are called coke ("they wouldn't say it was if it was clearly 'something else'" right?)
In other areas all soda is called "pop".
If for whatever reason a slang term, a colloquialism "whatever" caught on, then the name would change.
So the first "car" was not "car". It actually had other names, horseless carriage being one among many.
you mean MOTOR VEHICLES?! blasphemer!
lol see!!?!?!
Also, just found this:
A lorry is a large, flat bed truck, covered or open,
for carrying goods. The word was in use for certain kinds of freight
carrying rail cars long before motor vehicles were invented and it has
been around since the early 19th century.
I can see the rail car people going nuts "why are you calling that a Lorry!?!? It's clearly not a Lorry!"
Nobody is marketing lorries to consumers here. If they were, and there was a substantial difference in function for lorries and railcars, you night get away with making that argument here.
Not sure how this thread spilled into this conversation, but again:
There is a difference between a Tiger and a Tabby Cat. When new information presents itself we make adjustments. Its why we have different types of tigers and different types of Tabby Cats. There isn't only ONE type of Cat.
There is a difference between an MMO-RPG (WoW) and an MMO-FPS (Destiny). Some people use the term "MMO-Lite". Whatever you want to say, you cannot avoid the "MMO" part. That's my point. There isn't one type of MMO.
Both are MMOs. It's not complicated. AND yes "What is easily understood" changes all the time, actually every day because of new information. How can you disregard the fact that new information or data can completely change everything you knew about a subject?
What really baffles me is how hard people are still fighting whats happening instead of embracing it. The reason is that they cant let go of the word "Massively". The MMO is obviously evolving. Don't be so attached to it meaning MASSIVELY or DaOC or some other old shit.
MMO (2014-2018) - Online Multiplayer game with RPG features, smaller instanced group spaces/Zones.
MMO (2000-2013) - Online Multiplayer game with RPG features with larger instanced group spaces/zones.
Again.
Destiny has RPG, FPS, and Multiplayer online features but it's in a smaller game space.
WoW has RPG and multiplayer online features but it's in a larger game space.
Hell, what about SWTOR? Is that not an "MMO" according to you? It's not Massive enough?
Guild Wars 1 had about the same or smaller zones than Destiny. The Guild Wars wiki says "Guild Wars is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game series developed by ArenaNet and published by NCSOFT"
Stop being so attached to the Word "MASSIVELY" its a buzzword from the early 2000's to sell box copies. If we want to be honest and keep it 100, MASSIVE is like 50k players AT ONCE playing in the same zone. That's massive and no game has that. Who can say they have counted even 1k people in a zone?? ....So there isn't a TRUE "MASSIVELY" game.
When they say "Our game has over 12m players" they are talking about accounts created, not players in a damn zone. Jesus.
I never said any game with CO-OP is MMO... that's a false narrative forced on everyone who agrees that the term MMO has a new meaning. As if we somehow lack the brain power to understand the concept of both.
Destiny has everything in common with WoW except the Zone sizes.
I'm so sick of and over this tired ass argument.
This is about the MMO genre of games today vs the early 2000's buzzword MASSIVELY.
If you don't care about the word "massive" then drop it.
What the word massive is meant to signify is hundreds or thousands of players inhabiting the same space at the same time. That word may not be important to those who see MMOs as small group co-op gear grinders but it is important to those of us looking for particular content such as territorial control, massive battles, open world PvP etc.
That's why Destiny is not an MMOFPS. Planetside/Planetside 2 are MMOFPS. FPS games with massive scale battles where all combatants are on the same field at the same time.
It's fine if you don't care about those features and "Multiplayer Online RPG / Multiplayer Online FPS" etc. are enough to satisfy you. But when you start calling it "Massively" those of us who actually care about that title for one reason or another are going to call bullcrap. So why highjack a title that you say doesn't matter?
I've said the same thing. If it's irrelevant, we can all just drop the MMO and refer to them as multiplayer games. I'm cool with that if the industry is. Somehow, I don't see it gaining a lot of traction with the industry or journalists. Seems the terms have more meaning than that, just not enough meaning to worry about accurately and consistently applying it. That's a strange grey area to be in.
I don't know what the solution is. My preference would be to clearly define the term on your own website and then just be consistent. That way, we at least know what the journalist means when they say something is or isn't an MMO. At the moment, all we have is confusion and arguments.
There isn't a solution because there never has been a solution.
If any mmorpg website was to say "this is an mmo" and eventually everyone else started calling other things "mmo's" then they would be out of touch. It's not the website that defines the product it's those who make it and then the eventual community.
Also, I have seen some developers call "other games" mmo's when they were not really a large open world shared but thousands. I'll have to see if I can find those interviews.
Did you know there was a publication called "The Automotor and horseless vehicle journal"?
because Car wasn't a word yet. Well, to define a "buggyaut" That is.
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As @Iselin mentioned, the issue isn't about change. It's okay to have a debate about borderline titles due to technical improvements allowing devs to blur the line, but including titles such as MOBAs isn't debatable. They aren't, and the best argument for their inclusion has been either A) journalism leading the way, or B ) apathy about the distinction.
There's a simple resolution for both that doesn't include ignoring clear reality. As Iselin mentioned, I don't think it's done maliciously on the part of journalists. But they haven't done much to clarify or correct it, either.
Yeah but language doesn't evolve because of "strict rules" and adherence to protocol.
So if Journalists and developers and marketers are adding to that definition and they succeed then it's a done deal.
If I walk out of my house and call a car a truck and for some reason it catches on and more and more people start doing it then forever more it will be a truck.
A car with truck features is called a crossover car. Google it.
no I was being specific. A car.
Yea but there is reason people would say a car is truck. They wouldnt say it if it was clearly a car, there has to be enough truck there for people to question what they are looking at.
Nobody is gonna look at a Honda Civic and call it a truck bro. That's not whats happening here.
That wasn't the point.
Just like in certain areas all sodas are called coke ("they wouldn't say it was if it was clearly 'something else'" right?)
In other areas all soda is called "pop".
If for whatever reason a slang term, a colloquialism "whatever" caught on, then the name would change.
So the first "car" was not "car". It actually had other names, horseless carriage being one among many.
Vocabulary is basically a popularity contest. It explains why there is not just one dictionary that applies to all. Several different types with some words found in some but not others because the workers who put them together reach different conclusions sometimes.
Anne Curzan: What makes a word "real"?
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
As @Iselin mentioned, the issue isn't about change. It's okay to have a debate about borderline titles due to technical improvements allowing devs to blur the line, but including titles such as MOBAs isn't debatable. They aren't, and the best argument for their inclusion has been either A) journalism leading the way, or B ) apathy about the distinction.
There's a simple resolution for both that doesn't include ignoring clear reality. As Iselin mentioned, I don't think it's done maliciously on the part of journalists. But they haven't done much to clarify or correct it, either.
Yeah but language doesn't evolve because of "strict rules" and adherence to protocol.
So if Journalists and developers and marketers are adding to that definition and they succeed then it's a done deal.
If I walk out of my house and call a car a truck and for some reason it catches on and more and more people start doing it then forever more it will be a truck.
A car with truck features is called a crossover car. Google it.
no I was being specific. A car.
Yea but there is reason people would say a car is truck. They wouldnt say it if it was clearly a car, there has to be enough truck there for people to question what they are looking at.
Nobody is gonna look at a Honda Civic and call it a truck bro. That's not whats happening here.
That wasn't the point.
Just like in certain areas all sodas are called coke ("they wouldn't say it was if it was clearly 'something else'" right?)
In other areas all soda is called "pop".
If for whatever reason a slang term, a colloquialism "whatever" caught on, then the name would change.
So the first "car" was not "car". It actually had other names, horseless carriage being one among many.
you mean MOTOR VEHICLES?! blasphemer!
lol see!!?!?!
Also, just found this:
A lorry is a large, flat bed truck, covered or open,
for carrying goods. The word was in use for certain kinds of freight
carrying rail cars long before motor vehicles were invented and it has
been around since the early 19th century.
I can see the rail car people going nuts "why are you calling that a Lorry!?!? It's clearly not a Lorry!"
Nobody is marketing lorries to consumers here. If they were, and there was a substantial difference in function for lorries and railcars, you night get away with making that argument here.
So the point with that was that the word used to be used for one particular thing. A part of a train. Eventually it was used for a type of truck.
See? Words starting out as one thing and then incorporating other things. Is this thing on *taps mic*.
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Comments
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
It's like some people have never left the house and have no idea as to how the world has and will continue to change around them.
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There's a simple resolution for both that doesn't include ignoring clear reality. As Iselin mentioned, I don't think it's done maliciously on the part of journalists. But they haven't done much to clarify or correct it, either.
There is a difference between a Tiger and a Tabby Cat. When new information presents itself we make adjustments. Its why we have different types of tigers and different types of Tabby Cats. There isn't only ONE type of Cat.
There is a difference between an MMO-RPG (WoW) and an MMO-FPS (Destiny). Some people use the term "MMO-Lite". Whatever you want to say, you cannot avoid the "MMO" part. That's my point. There isn't one type of MMO.
Both are MMOs. It's not complicated. AND yes "What is easily understood" changes all the time, actually every day because of new information. How can you disregard the fact that new information or data can completely change everything you knew about a subject?
What really baffles me is how hard people are still fighting whats happening instead of embracing it. The reason is that they cant let go of the word "Massively". The MMO is obviously evolving. Don't be so attached to it meaning MASSIVELY or DaOC or some other old shit.
MMO (2014-2018) - Online Multiplayer game with RPG features, smaller instanced group spaces/Zones.
MMO (2000-2013) - Online Multiplayer game with RPG features with larger instanced group spaces/zones.
Again.
Destiny has RPG, FPS, and Multiplayer online features but it's in a smaller game space.
WoW has RPG and multiplayer online features but it's in a larger game space.
Hell, what about SWTOR? Is that not an "MMO" according to you? It's not Massive enough?
Guild Wars 1 had about the same or smaller zones than Destiny. The Guild Wars wiki says "Guild Wars is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game series developed by ArenaNet and published by NCSOFT"
Stop being so attached to the Word "MASSIVELY" its a buzzword from the early 2000's to sell box copies. If we want to be honest and keep it 100, MASSIVE is like 50k players AT ONCE playing in the same zone. That's massive and no game has that. Who can say they have counted even 1k people in a zone?? ....So there isn't a TRUE "MASSIVELY" game.
When they say "Our game has over 12m players" they are talking about accounts created, not players in a damn zone. Jesus.
I never said any game with CO-OP is MMO... that's a false narrative forced on everyone who agrees that the term MMO has a new meaning. As if we somehow lack the brain power to understand the concept of both.
Destiny has everything in common with WoW except the Zone sizes.
I'm so sick of and over this tired ass argument.
This is about the MMO genre of games today vs the early 2000's buzzword MASSIVELY.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Aloha Mr Hand !
If you go to a car dealership and see this
You can argue whatever you want, "no it's a car" "no it's a boat" all day long, but in the end, it doesn't matter what you classify it as. You'll still only buy it if it's something you like, and if you are playing games based ONLY on their genre classification and not by what interests you, that's a sad type of gamer to be.
So if Journalists and developers and marketers are adding to that definition and they succeed then it's a done deal.
If I walk out of my house and call a car a truck and for some reason it catches on and more and more people start doing it then forever more it will be a truck.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Nobody is gonna look at a Honda Civic and call it a truck bro. That's not whats happening here.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
What the word massive is meant to signify is hundreds or thousands of players inhabiting the same space at the same time. That word may not be important to those who see MMOs as small group co-op gear grinders but it is important to those of us looking for particular content such as territorial control, massive battles, open world PvP etc.
That's why Destiny is not an MMOFPS. Planetside/Planetside 2 are MMOFPS. FPS games with massive scale battles where all combatants are on the same field at the same time.
It's fine if you don't care about those features and "Multiplayer Online RPG / Multiplayer Online FPS" etc. are enough to satisfy you. But when you start calling it "Massively" those of us who actually care about that title for one reason or another are going to call bullcrap. So why highjack a title that you say doesn't matter?
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
The solution to A is for journalists to, really, do the essence of what they're there for: provide accuracy and cut through the BS to bring us news and events in the game space without merely parroting the devs. That includes cutting through BS like devs classifying their games incorrectly for marketing or whatever other reason.
The solution to B is to just drop MMO completely. If it's the same as multiplayer, then MMO means nothing and is superfluous. Just call then all multiplayer. I've said this before. For all the folks saying they don't care, I haven't seen many in favor of doing the obvious to render the entire debate moot.
Just like in certain areas all sodas are called coke ("they wouldn't say it was if it was clearly 'something else'" right?)
In other areas all soda is called "pop".
If for whatever reason a slang term, a colloquialism "whatever" caught on, then the name would change.
So the first "car" was not "car". It actually had other names, horseless carriage being one among many.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
A facelift has been in order 5yrs ago, but a rebranding is really what you need. Stop being tied down to a domain. Keep it, sure, hell maybe even us it to display mmorpg content only on a brand new branding platform but for the love of god get a new name and a new domain.
If mmorpg.com needs help give me a pm, the company I work for does exactly this. We find out who you are and what you do not only from the standpoint of the verb but deep down in the culture, to the bottom line of successful branding as well as web development, tech and strategies.
What even happened with the attempted facelift lately did the developers bail?
It is actually gaming journalists who get it wrong most often.
Some get it wrong accidentally, typically gaming journalists who don't often cover MMOs and thus don't know much about the genre.
Some get it wrong deliberately.
Some journalists use the revenue / clicks argument. The MMO genre is dying so they need to cover non-MMOs in order to increase clicks and revenue. This is a perfectly valid reason for covering more genres, but it's a poor excuse to start mislabeling games. Just man up and explain why you're covering more genres, we all understand that aspect fine.
Some journalists use the "features" argument. This goes along the lines of comparing features in actual MMOs to features in non-MMOs and if there are enough similarities, call it an MMO. Again, this is a perfectly valid reason for covering more games as there is definitely cross-over appeal, but it's another poor excuse for mislabeling games. It ignores the English language and ignores the only unique selling point of the genre - massively multiplayer. It also tends to show a feature bias, as for me, being massively multiplayer is the most important feature but journalists seem happy to write it off as inconsequential.
(I also have a side-theory to this argument: due to the nature of their jobs, I have the feeling that gaming journalists naturally don't care about player caps. They have to game jump so often that having a high player cap - being massively multiplayer - doesn't factor into their enjoyment because they don't stick around long enough to see the effects. but, i may well be wrong on this count having never been a gaming journalist myself)
Some use the "words change meaning over time" argument. Whilst words do indeed change meaning over time, the words "massively multiplayer online" haven't in this context. To make matters worse, it is the journalists who are driving the change in meaning, rather than journalists responding to how the public use the terminology. But, it doesn't matter either way, journalists are supposed to be better than that, educating and informing us, not misleading us.
I don't know what the solution is. My preference would be to clearly define the term on your own website and then just be consistent. That way, we at least know what the journalist means when they say something is or isn't an MMO. At the moment, all we have is confusion and arguments.
Also, just found this:
A lorry is a large, flat bed truck, covered or open, for carrying goods. The word was in use for certain kinds of freight carrying rail cars long before motor vehicles were invented and it has been around since the early 19th century.
I can see the rail car people going nuts "why are you calling that a Lorry!?!? It's clearly not a Lorry!"
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I think MMORPG does need to start moving away from this methodology. I no longer listen to the hype on the next best MMORPG from sites like MMORPG.com because I know that they are making money from the publishers to be click bait. This is why I listen directly to the publishers, and players who played the games before I even spend time or money on a game. For far too long the money as come from ads and the people with the money for reviews on games. It no longer works and we are in a paradigm shift now.
If any mmorpg website was to say "this is an mmo" and eventually everyone else started calling other things "mmo's" then they would be out of touch. It's not the website that defines the product it's those who make it and then the eventual community.
Also, I have seen some developers call "other games" mmo's when they were not really a large open world shared but thousands. I'll have to see if I can find those interviews.
Did you know there was a publication called "The Automotor and horseless vehicle journal"?
because Car wasn't a word yet. Well, to define a "buggyaut" That is.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
See? Words starting out as one thing and then incorporating other things. Is this thing on *taps mic*.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo