Now that ive read more about this situation, learned of the previous situations of the parties involved and actually read the tweets in question, it is a little bit of a misleading title. Should be more along the lines of "Devs twitter outburst leads to firing"
Stop acting like developers receive no positivity for their work. Not only that, but sales and player numbers speak for themselves.
They get some positive feed back.. sure.. but how does that change the truth of what I just said?
They make money.. sure.. but how does that change the truth of what I just said?
Then stop acting like it's one-sided. Jesus dude, bitching from customers isn't unique in the video game industry. ANY industry that has customers deals with that.
Which is exactly why all too often employees don't interact socially with customers..in all those other industries.
Also. get real, gamers overall are far worse then I have seen in any other industry ever.
I mean NO other industry has to deal with the asinine hypocritical nature of what MMO developers deal with, can you imagine if someone went into a huge fit over how a Pizza place changed their mushroom vendor and now their pizza sucks, and yet they still eat there every day.. the pizza place would be dumb stuck how stupid this person was, and yet that is what game companies deal with, every single day.
I mean if someone is unhappy with their demist, they spew some hate and find a new dentist. Same with almost every other industry out there.
Yet MMO's have the special honor of people who spew hate upon them and play their game religiously.
Now you and I both know.. no one else deals with that kind of stuff.. so spare me that they don't have to deal with their special plane of hell because of it.
No, you need to get real. I work in customer service, and you're just wrong. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Other industries just have dedicated support staff to take complaints through things such as chat and phone. Video games don't generally take gameplay feedback that way, only dedicated support for technical issues.
EDIT- there's a reason folks that work on video games will actually interact with their customer bases at all on social media. Tell me the last time you saw a fucking claims adjuster do an AMA?
Really?
Do you really think none of us have done customer service? I'll admit, it does seem like some of us haven't.. but if it helps your little charade. I worked as a Maintenance Supervisor/Security for a Hospitality Company for over a decade, I bet.. I can match and beat any 'story' you have.
Then one might think you would act like it.
I do act like it.. keep everyone who is not my private circle, out of my social life. Because fuck dealing with that "work" shit on my private time.
Because dealing with Clients is Work. As I said her mistake was dealing with the Clients on her personal account.
She should never have made where she worked linked to her twitter account, and if she was going to go something like that, she should have made a secondary account to play that game.
Like anyone that works with the public would have the common sense to do.
Hence why all our forum names are not our real names, and we are mostly smart enough to not give out any personal data.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Stop acting like developers receive no positivity for their work. Not only that, but sales and player numbers speak for themselves.
They get some positive feed back.. sure.. but how does that change the truth of what I just said?
They make money.. sure.. but how does that change the truth of what I just said?
Then stop acting like it's one-sided. Jesus dude, bitching from customers isn't unique in the video game industry. ANY industry that has customers deals with that.
Which is exactly why all too often employees don't interact socially with customers..in all those other industries.
Also. get real, gamers overall are far worse then I have seen in any other industry ever.
I mean NO other industry has to deal with the asinine hypocritical nature of what MMO developers deal with, can you imagine if someone went into a huge fit over how a Pizza place changed their mushroom vendor and now their pizza sucks, and yet they still eat there every day.. the pizza place would be dumb stuck how stupid this person was, and yet that is what game companies deal with, every single day.
I mean if someone is unhappy with their demist, they spew some hate and find a new dentist. Same with almost every other industry out there.
Yet MMO's have the special honor of people who spew hate upon them and play their game religiously.
Now you and I both know.. no one else deals with that kind of stuff.. so spare me that they don't have to deal with their special plane of hell because of it.
No, you need to get real. I work in customer service, and you're just wrong. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Other industries just have dedicated support staff to take complaints through things such as chat and phone. Video games don't generally take gameplay feedback that way, only dedicated support for technical issues.
EDIT- there's a reason folks that work on video games will actually interact with their customer bases at all on social media. Tell me the last time you saw a fucking claims adjuster do an AMA?
Really?
Do you really think none of us have done customer service? I'll admit, it does seem like some of us haven't.. but if it helps your little charade. I worked as a Maintenance Supervisor/Security for a Hospitality Company for over a decade, I bet.. I can match and beat any 'story' you have.
Then one might think you would act like it.
I do act like it.. keep everyone who is not my private circle, out of my social life. Because fuck dealing with that "work" shit on my private time.
Because dealing with Clients is Work. As I said her mistake was dealing with the Clients on her personal account.
She should never have made where she worked linked to her twitter account, and if she was going to go something like that, she should have made a secondary account to play that game.
Like anyone that works with the public would have the common sense to do.
Hence why all our forum names are not our real names, and we are mostly smart enough to not give out any personal data.
But that wasn't the context of what you were responding to. You were acting like video game devs have some kind of monopoly on unreasonable and/or entitled customers.
To be clear, I'm not even IN those dedicated complaint support staff offices. Yet I hear the very complaints you quoted above on a daily basis. I can't imagine the type of things heard or read by those in the offices I mentioned, though I do see a small snippet when it's a complaint from a customer within our service area. Gamers are consumers, same as consumers in any other industry. The only reason we all see it more in the gaming industry is because we surf friggin' video game news sites in our free time.
EDIT- Google "man attacks claims adjuster," then Google "man attacks video game developer," and compare the results, then come back and tell me video game devs got it worse than other industries.
Stop acting like developers receive no positivity for their work. Not only that, but sales and player numbers speak for themselves.
They get some positive feed back.. sure.. but how does that change the truth of what I just said?
They make money.. sure.. but how does that change the truth of what I just said?
Then stop acting like it's one-sided. Jesus dude, bitching from customers isn't unique in the video game industry. ANY industry that has customers deals with that.
Which is exactly why all too often employees don't interact socially with customers..in all those other industries.
Also. get real, gamers overall are far worse then I have seen in any other industry ever.
I mean NO other industry has to deal with the asinine hypocritical nature of what MMO developers deal with, can you imagine if someone went into a huge fit over how a Pizza place changed their mushroom vendor and now their pizza sucks, and yet they still eat there every day.. the pizza place would be dumb stuck how stupid this person was, and yet that is what game companies deal with, every single day.
I mean if someone is unhappy with their demist, they spew some hate and find a new dentist. Same with almost every other industry out there.
Yet MMO's have the special honor of people who spew hate upon them and play their game religiously.
Now you and I both know.. no one else deals with that kind of stuff.. so spare me that they don't have to deal with their special plane of hell because of it.
No, you need to get real. I work in customer service, and you're just wrong. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Other industries just have dedicated support staff to take complaints through things such as chat and phone. Video games don't generally take gameplay feedback that way, only dedicated support for technical issues.
EDIT- there's a reason folks that work on video games will actually interact with their customer bases at all on social media. Tell me the last time you saw a fucking claims adjuster do an AMA?
Really?
Do you really think none of us have done customer service? I'll admit, it does seem like some of us haven't.. but if it helps your little charade. I worked as a Maintenance Supervisor/Security for a Hospitality Company for over a decade, I bet.. I can match and beat any 'story' you have.
Then one might think you would act like it.
I do act like it.. keep everyone who is not my private circle, out of my social life. Because fuck dealing with that "work" shit on my private time.
Because dealing with Clients is Work. As I said her mistake was dealing with the Clients on her personal account.
She should never have made where she worked linked to her twitter account, and if she was going to go something like that, she should have made a secondary account to play that game.
Like anyone that works with the public would have the common sense to do.
Hence why all our forum names are not our real names, and we are mostly smart enough to not give out any personal data.
But that wasn't the context of what you were responding to. You were acting like video game devs have some kind of monopoly on unreasonable and/or entitled customers.
They do.
and it's not the entitlement, it's the fact they will spew hate on the product and STILL CONTINUE TO USE IT RELIGIOUSLY!
Which was the point you seemed to miss. See when you have to tell a client "no" that ends the exchange, they are not getting the money, and there is nothing further that is going to happen. They may rage, they may freak out, but at the end of the day, they are going to have to do business with someone else.
That is not how MMO's work.
People Rage, Hate, Spew Vitriol, threaten, and all the normal "Pissed off Customer Stuff" but then they stay around.. and do it Again.. and Again.. and AGAIN.. and it's the same people.. that never go away and spew endless hate. They Play the game.. I bet more then the "average" player.. and claim the game sucks, and have nothing good to say.
Sorry.. but.. No.. you don't deal with anything as Bi-Polar Fucked Up as that.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Stop acting like developers receive no positivity for their work. Not only that, but sales and player numbers speak for themselves.
They get some positive feed back.. sure.. but how does that change the truth of what I just said?
They make money.. sure.. but how does that change the truth of what I just said?
Then stop acting like it's one-sided. Jesus dude, bitching from customers isn't unique in the video game industry. ANY industry that has customers deals with that.
Which is exactly why all too often employees don't interact socially with customers..in all those other industries.
Also. get real, gamers overall are far worse then I have seen in any other industry ever.
I mean NO other industry has to deal with the asinine hypocritical nature of what MMO developers deal with, can you imagine if someone went into a huge fit over how a Pizza place changed their mushroom vendor and now their pizza sucks, and yet they still eat there every day.. the pizza place would be dumb stuck how stupid this person was, and yet that is what game companies deal with, every single day.
I mean if someone is unhappy with their demist, they spew some hate and find a new dentist. Same with almost every other industry out there.
Yet MMO's have the special honor of people who spew hate upon them and play their game religiously.
Now you and I both know.. no one else deals with that kind of stuff.. so spare me that they don't have to deal with their special plane of hell because of it.
No, you need to get real. I work in customer service, and you're just wrong. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Other industries just have dedicated support staff to take complaints through things such as chat and phone. Video games don't generally take gameplay feedback that way, only dedicated support for technical issues.
EDIT- there's a reason folks that work on video games will actually interact with their customer bases at all on social media. Tell me the last time you saw a fucking claims adjuster do an AMA?
Really?
Do you really think none of us have done customer service? I'll admit, it does seem like some of us haven't.. but if it helps your little charade. I worked as a Maintenance Supervisor/Security for a Hospitality Company for over a decade, I bet.. I can match and beat any 'story' you have.
Then one might think you would act like it.
I do act like it.. keep everyone who is not my private circle, out of my social life. Because fuck dealing with that "work" shit on my private time.
Because dealing with Clients is Work. As I said her mistake was dealing with the Clients on her personal account.
She should never have made where she worked linked to her twitter account, and if she was going to go something like that, she should have made a secondary account to play that game.
Like anyone that works with the public would have the common sense to do.
Hence why all our forum names are not our real names, and we are mostly smart enough to not give out any personal data.
But that wasn't the context of what you were responding to. You were acting like video game devs have some kind of monopoly on unreasonable and/or entitled customers.
They do.
and it's not the entitlement, it's the fact they will spew hate on the product and STILL CONTINUE TO USE IT RELIGIOUSLY!
Which was the point you seemed to miss. See when you have to tell a client "no" that ends the exchange, they are not getting the money, and there is nothing further that is going to happen. They may rage, they may freak out, but at the end of the day, they are going to have to do business with someone else.
That is not how MMO's work.
People Rage, Hate, Spew Vitriol, threaten, and all the normal "Pissed off Customer Stuff" but then they stay around.. and do it Again.. and Again.. and AGAIN.. and it's the same people.. that never go away and spew endless hate. They Play the game.. I bet more then the "average" player.. and claim the game sucks, and have nothing good to say.
Sorry.. but.. No.. you don't deal with anything as Bi-Polar Fucked Up as that.
Lol, dude, you're spewing ignorance. Plain and simple. I'll leave you to it.
EDIT- I'll list a few more examples to prove the point again: had a customer who filed a claim, like clockwork, once every other year for the same peril that wasn't covered. It was explained to this customer every time this peril was not covered, yet the customer would yell and cry and tell the adjuster we were ruining said customer's life each time. Another customer who I worked with for over 6 months because the customer would demand things we couldn't acquiesce, go MIA for weeks, then come back and demand more things because said customer was angry we hadn't completed the prior unreasonable requests while the customer wasn't answering the phone for weeks at a time. It happens, m'man.
To be clear, I'm not even IN those dedicated complaint support staff offices. Yet I hear the very complaints you quoted above on a daily basis. I can't imagine the type of things heard or read by those in the offices I mentioned, though I do see a small snippet when it's a complaint from a customer within our service area. Gamers are consumers, same as consumers in any other industry. The only reason we all see it more in the gaming industry is because we surf friggin' video game news sites in our free time.
What I am trying to convey, is that these are not "all those complaints" implying that different people will say these things, I am saying that gamers say this in "All of that in one Breath"
They Spew hate for the game, yet, require, nay, they NEED to keep playing the game because they love it so.. but it sucks..
Or better yet.. You get High praise.. you are loved.. this client thinks you are the best ever.. canceled their account with you months ago and is using a competitor.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
To be clear, I'm not even IN those dedicated complaint support staff offices. Yet I hear the very complaints you quoted above on a daily basis. I can't imagine the type of things heard or read by those in the offices I mentioned, though I do see a small snippet when it's a complaint from a customer within our service area. Gamers are consumers, same as consumers in any other industry. The only reason we all see it more in the gaming industry is because we surf friggin' video game news sites in our free time.
What I am trying to convey, is that these are not "all those complaints" implying that different people will say these things, I am saying that gamers say this in "All of that in one Breath"
They Spew hate for the game, yet, require, nay, they NEED to keep playing the game because they love it so.. but it sucks..
Or better yet.. You get High praise.. you are loved.. this client thinks you are the best ever.. canceled their account with you months ago and is using a competitor.
I get it, but those things really are not exclusive to the video game industry.. I cited two examples above.
I get what you're trying to say, I do, but it's just not some burning circle of customer hell every single day for video game devs. Hell, most don't even interact with the public like Price did; they aren't even really customer service staff, so they can just refrain from engaging with their customers personally if they like. They can leave that to community managers if they want. Anyone who's reasonably intelligent will tell you that you will always have a certain segment of folks you'll never please (and you know this, being reasonably intelligent yourself). There's nothing unique about that within the game development industry.
EDIT- the reason devs get most of their criticism on social media is largely because they're not required to give their customers their personal work phone and email. Plain and simple.
I'll list a few more examples to prove the point again: had a customer who filed a claim, like clockwork, once every other year for the same peril that wasn't covered. It was explained to this customer every time this peril was not covered, yet the customer would yell and cry and tell the adjuster we were ruining said customer's life each time.
This my Dude.. is Hilarious!
I swear, I'd want to personalize his account, and since I bet he has to pay for each try, I'd just recycle his previous stuff, and ask him how he wants his rejection letter sent this time.
Yah there is always a few that don't get it. Like the guy that would smoke and bring his dog into our facility, and cry about the fine each time, claim it was outrageous and how he was never going to use us again.. till oh.. 6 months later..
yah there are a few crazies.. but.. Just.. feels like MMO's have the market share on them you.. you know. What seems rare and even in some cases memorable for us.. is like their 80% percentile.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Stop acting like developers receive no positivity for their work. Not only that, but sales and player numbers speak for themselves.
They get some positive feed back.. sure.. but how does that change the truth of what I just said?
They make money.. sure.. but how does that change the truth of what I just said?
Then stop acting like it's one-sided. Jesus dude, bitching from customers isn't unique in the video game industry. ANY industry that has customers deals with that.
Which is exactly why all too often employees don't interact socially with customers..in all those other industries.
Also. get real, gamers overall are far worse then I have seen in any other industry ever.
I mean NO other industry has to deal with the asinine hypocritical nature of what MMO developers deal with, can you imagine if someone went into a huge fit over how a Pizza place changed their mushroom vendor and now their pizza sucks, and yet they still eat there every day.. the pizza place would be dumb stuck how stupid this person was, and yet that is what game companies deal with, every single day.
I mean if someone is unhappy with their demist, they spew some hate and find a new dentist. Same with almost every other industry out there.
Yet MMO's have the special honor of people who spew hate upon them and play their game religiously.
Now you and I both know.. no one else deals with that kind of stuff.. so spare me that they don't have to deal with their special plane of hell because of it.
No, you need to get real. I work in customer service, and you're just wrong. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Other industries just have dedicated support staff to take complaints through things such as chat and phone. Video games don't generally take gameplay feedback that way, only dedicated support for technical issues.
EDIT- there's a reason folks that work on video games will actually interact with their customer bases at all on social media. Tell me the last time you saw a fucking claims adjuster do an AMA?
Really?
Do you really think none of us have done customer service? I'll admit, it does seem like some of us haven't.. but if it helps your little charade. I worked as a Maintenance Supervisor/Security for a Hospitality Company for over a decade, I bet.. I can match and beat any 'story' you have.
Then one might think you would act like it.
I do act like it.. keep everyone who is not my private circle, out of my social life. Because fuck dealing with that "work" shit on my private time.
Because dealing with Clients is Work. As I said her mistake was dealing with the Clients on her personal account.
She should never have made where she worked linked to her twitter account, and if she was going to go something like that, she should have made a secondary account to play that game.
Like anyone that works with the public would have the common sense to do.
Hence why all our forum names are not our real names, and we are mostly smart enough to not give out any personal data.
I don't think these kind of personalities can help themselves. Even days after she got fired from the company, she didn't get rid of the title that gave her power and authority.
I can imagine that for her the whole thing was a huge power fantasy trip gone bad.
And that was the gist of it, she thought that her position, authority and privilege would shield her for any repercussions, regardless of her behaviour. This once she was wrong.
The sad part is the gaming "journalism" trying to rewrite reality, by creating a narrative where she's somehow the victim and not the perpetrator of the assault.
Twitter is ideal for factual statements, announcements. But its fast pace and short sentence structure is horrible for emotions and thoughts, any subtlety or context is lost. Then multiply that less then ideal setup with a short fuse and condecending attitude and this is the result.
Internet is just like real life. You are, and will be held, accountable for what you say and how you behave. Why people would think otherwise is beyond me, arrogance perhaps.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
I have to disagree, one hundred and forty characters is just
too short of factual statements, announcements. Before you know it you have ru
Now for the serious point, it seems to me that Twitter is made for a quick rant, emotional outburst and swearing. It cannot handle nuance or anything beyond the briefest explanation.
I am not saying Twitter wanted it this way, there are very good reasons for the 140 character limit, but they have designed something that is not conducive to rational dialogue.
I'll list a few more examples to prove the point again: had a customer who filed a claim, like clockwork, once every other year for the same peril that wasn't covered. It was explained to this customer every time this peril was not covered, yet the customer would yell and cry and tell the adjuster we were ruining said customer's life each time.
This my Dude.. is Hilarious!
I swear, I'd want to personalize his account, and since I bet he has to pay for each try, I'd just recycle his previous stuff, and ask him how he wants his rejection letter sent this time.
Yah there is always a few that don't get it. Like the guy that would smoke and bring his dog into our facility, and cry about the fine each time, claim it was outrageous and how he was never going to use us again.. till oh.. 6 months later..
yah there are a few crazies.. but.. Just.. feels like MMO's have the market share on them you.. you know. What seems rare and even in some cases memorable for us.. is like their 80% percentile.
Anonymity and social media makes it easy to pile on and pool the crazy into one spot, I'll give you that.
But for every dog pile shit storm on social media, there's likely 100 (or more) paying customers who silently go about their day enjoying the product, and I'll bet the managers make that clear to developers (if they don't, they absolutely should). Critical acclaim, sales numbers, all of that is positive proof for devs. Similarly, retention rate of customers who have filed a claim is positive proof for us, even if they don't specifically tell us they appreciate our work during the claims process.
In short: crazy's gonna cray. But letting the crazies dictate your day is a good way to become a crazy yourself.
If someone can't deal with the Guild Wars 2 community, I have to wonder what they are doing in game development at all. With few exceptions other than Warframe, you aren't going to find a more friendly community.
Honestly.. the outside of the game community, is pretty shit. The in game community, (not including the raiders/pvp population) is pretty awesome.
Except that they really, really aren't "pretty shit." Even if we look at an actual controversy like this one, the players who participated in this Twitter spat were nothing but respectful, even after being replied to with overt hostility. It was only after a long and unacceptable chain of customer contempt on the part of Ms. Price that there was any community mob. As it turns out, even the best communities do not appreciate overt disrespect and contempt, nor should they.
Guild Wars 2 - Social Media Warfare Takes Down Two Writers at ArenaNet - MMORPG.com
We all know Social media is a quagmire of scum and villainy. The temptation to go full keyboard warrior, the white knights, and flaming. For all the good it can do, it can destroy just as easily. So, when the Guild Wars 2 subreddit started blowing up over some combative social media comments things weren't bound to end well for two of ArenaNet’s Guild Wars 2 writing team.
To be fair Price brought it on about herself and anything that was said on reddit by others likely wasn't even a factor for Anet. She attacked partners (including one that has an actual NPC named after them in game) among other things. She destroyed her own career on her own and no amount of mob justice would of made it go any other way. Arenanet wasn't going to ignore it flat out regardless of what was said on reddit. She was flat out nasty to someone for no reasons and it was completely uncalled for.
Her responses to content creators and the community were unprofessional. She should have known better, posting under her name with her company in her bio, that she is representing the company she works for. There's a way to disagree with someone without coming off as a jerk (unprofessional). Was the firing warranted, personally... I think it was a bit much and a workshop or probation might have been more appropriate. However, it was the only move ArenaNet could make due to the PR disaster JP caused. I applaud ArenaNet for sticking up for it's customer base and not allowing a toxic employee's actions represent them.
I think it was warranted given her utter disdain and history of doing stuff like this. From what it looks like she's been toxic to the community several times (even cheered about totalbiscuit dying) and has out and out used twitter to act reprehensible. She very likely has been reprimanded about her behavior several times at this point. The guy that protected her I could see maybe a discussion about how him being fired was questionable, but she has a history of doing this stuff at this point and likely is toxic at work too in all likelihood.
Whether her actions deserved it or not...This is Mob mentality at it's finest. Aren't court systems the result of trying to limit this in real life? There is no innocent until proven guilty on the internet. It's just the court of public opinion. Wonder how long, or even if, some type of protection will ever happen on the Internet. I don't use social media, have no Facebook profile.
She'd of likely been fired for her own behavior regardless of people calling for blood. She has a history of this behavior at this point.
... So some guy made a fairly innocuous comment to her little Shitter post and she turned into a raging dickhead and got herself fired. Wow, smart. I hope she enjoys being unemployed because after this ridiculous shitstorm I doubt another company will risk hiring her.
Social media may indeed be a quagmire of scum and villainy, but it isn't the technology that's at fault. Its the angry egotistical jackhole that resides behind our own eyes that's to blame.
2nd time she's been fired for this now so she is showing a behavioral pattern at this point.
Your stance is a bit of a dangerous mindset. Circumstances matter, reasons for outrage matter, you can't just look at the result and be like, nope that's wrong.
As for your opinion, I disagree, it is a good precedent. It shows you can't be a terrible human being and not face consequence. She is the person who harmed developer/community relations not the other way round.
"We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think the consequences fit the type of offense (without knowing things like if this writer had been warned previously, or other actions had been taken behind the scenes prior to this... stuff like that - it's being presented as community backlash = firing) but still, these weren't official company channels of communication we're talking about here. This is personal communication. I disagree with firing people over things like this.
To the "you can't be a terrible human being and not face consequence" thing... I think consequences should match the offense. I don't think there was a Fire-worthy offense here. Some people argued on social media on the internet! (this would be different if it was on their official forums and the person was acting in an official capacity as a community relations person, but no, this was on social media)... wow! nothing to see here, move along. Seriously.
The consequences for being a terrible human being should be reaping the results they expect to see done unfairly to others. People are rarely fair in their punishments (even in the legal system that is set up to do that), so I'd rather leave it up to a different source. This isn't the place for that discussion, though.
As to the harming of the developer/community: I don't hold the developer responsible for an individual's personal comments. If you do, there's a problem there, IMO. It might be different if it were the CEO or someone in a position where their opinion and mindset were carried through to the rest of the company and decisions made, so by supporting the company I was also supporting that mindset... but this doesn't fall anywhere near that line.
If I held everyone to this standard, I wouldn't be able to shop many places... few companies would have a good standing in my books. Oh, and everyone who voiced an opinion that offended someone would get them fired from whatever job they had... what a wonderful world being suggested here.
Can we go demand the local Supermarket fire a grocery bagger if they made an offensive post on social media? What is the line? Is it just the size of the backlash, the number of people involved or how offended people are (or which group is offended)? And why does this have to link back to their job at all? It makes NO SENSE to me.
My conclusion: this firing based on community backlash is unwarranted especially if it was only the result of mob mentality. (even if the person made stupid, offensive, and unpopular comments)
Edit: partially figued out partial quoting, I think... "
I will bring up that she specifically has been fired for this before and has shown a behavioral issue at this point that likely won't stop any time soon. She has been toxic on her twitter numerous times and again has been fired for this type of behavior from elsewhere before. At this point it is warranted and you don't know if this was the only contributing factor. It might of been the straw that broke the camels back ultimately.
(i'm really unsure why quoting didn't work right there)
While I don't like that AN caved in and let the mob hang someone, I'd need to know the full story before I pass my judgment. Preferably from both sides. But for an obscure reason I doubt that I'll get that.
So, what is the full story?
I don't think it was caving to "mob mentality". Jessica Price has a history of being toxic and was fired from another job for similar things. She celebrated total biscuit dying on her twitter and has gone off the deep end a few times. This time she was directly more or less attacking arena net partners / content creators (one whom has an NPC in game named after him that makes guides and other stuff). So her history of toxic behavior in the past + this is likely the straw that broke the camel's back. I imagine she was already on thin ice with ArenaNet for past behavior and this just tipped it over the edge. While the guy fired could be questioned as questionable at best. Her firing was just and warranted given past behavior.
Your stance is a bit of a dangerous mindset. Circumstances matter, reasons for outrage matter, you can't just look at the result and be like, nope that's wrong.
As for your opinion, I disagree, it is a good precedent. It shows you can't be a terrible human being and not face consequence. She is the person who harmed developer/community relations not the other way round.
"We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think the consequences fit the type of offense (without knowing things like if this writer had been warned previously, or other actions had been taken behind the scenes prior to this... stuff like that - it's being presented as community backlash = firing) but still, these weren't official company channels of communication we're talking about here. This is personal communication. I disagree with firing people over things like this.
To the "you can't be a terrible human being and not face consequence" thing... I think consequences should match the offense. I don't think there was a Fire-worthy offense here. Some people argued on social media on the internet! (this would be different if it was on their official forums and the person was acting in an official capacity as a community relations person, but no, this was on social media)... wow! nothing to see here, move along. Seriously.
The consequences for being a terrible human being should be reaping the results they expect to see done unfairly to others. People are rarely fair in their punishments (even in the legal system that is set up to do that), so I'd rather leave it up to a different source. This isn't the place for that discussion, though.
As to the harming of the developer/community: I don't hold the developer responsible for an individual's personal comments. If you do, there's a problem there, IMO. It might be different if it were the CEO or someone in a position where their opinion and mindset were carried through to the rest of the company and decisions made, so by supporting the company I was also supporting that mindset... but this doesn't fall anywhere near that line.
If I held everyone to this standard, I wouldn't be able to shop many places... few companies would have a good standing in my books. Oh, and everyone who voiced an opinion that offended someone would get them fired from whatever job they had... what a wonderful world being suggested here.
Can we go demand the local Supermarket fire a grocery bagger if they made an offensive post on social media? What is the line? Is it just the size of the backlash, the number of people involved or how offended people are (or which group is offended)? And why does this have to link back to their job at all? It makes NO SENSE to me.
My conclusion: this firing based on community backlash is unwarranted especially if it was only the result of mob mentality. (even if the person made stupid, offensive, and unpopular comments)
Edit: partially figued out partial quoting, I think... "
I will bring up that she specifically has been fired for this before and has shown a behavioral issue at this point that likely won't stop any time soon. She has been toxic on her twitter numerous times and again has been fired for this type of behavior from elsewhere before. At this point it is warranted and you don't know if this was the only contributing factor. It might of been the straw that broke the camels back ultimately.
(i'm really unsure why quoting didn't work right there)
It's called PR, people get fired for besmirching a companies image all the time. If you're arguing that it shouldn't be a firable offense you've got a lot of people to stand behind.
Shit always goes wrong when game makers listen and respond to people who know nothing about game development. A good developer listens to feedback and take notes, but completely ignore the person saying it.
How would she know he knows nothing, was a male, or wasn't a professional of some sorts? You do know that a lot of the public probably knows way more about the game development process than you might think as well ya? I've flat out been a mentor to game developers over the years and I know many people that have similar situations where we got many people started in the industry by helping them along with our knowledge and the like.
Just because they may not be involved directly in a game studio doesn't mean a person doesn't understand the game development process. Particularly these days.
I have to say, this is a pretty one sided article.
Everyone knows that social media can be tricky, which is why well-known companies warn their employees beforehand. If you still choose to be active on social media, you go into this knowing the risks.
I don't understand the argument of her being "off the clock" and it being her "private" Twitter account. First of all, nothing is private when you decide to put something out there for everyone to see. This was not an email exchange that got leaked, she herself posted it. It was not some random forum where she posted under a pseudonym and then her identity was revealed against her wishes.
She chose to not only use her real name and state her job title and the company she works for in her bio, but it also serves as the subject matter she posts about. This links everything she writes directly to her employer. Why does she do this? To have clout and give her arguments weight. She doesn't want to be some random anonymous person on the Internet advancing an agenda or voicing an opinion (nothing wrong about that per se). She uses her credentials to her advantage and now can't be upset that it backfired.
The post itself: it talked about video game writing and how difficult it actually is to create compelling characters. She herself ended it by saying she knows this is a problem but she doesn't necessarily have a solution for it. Then she is salty that someone gives her feedback and tries to offer a solution (however amateur it may be) and start a conversation. How can you pose a problem, say you don't have a solution and then be angry when people offer their opinions? Oh and then throw gender into the mix.
I also have to say that it is unfair to assume she got fired just because of this. Have you seen her Twitter feed? She constantly generalizes, bashes people and is generally rude. Telling fans of the game that she is not gonna be nice to them on her feed (how about being respectful?) and how male gamers are always hurt in their manfeelings. She then posts that she is glad about someone's death. How awful do you have to be before a company is allowed to fire you?
i did not like what JP said about TB's death, i loved that man and i donated 1000 euros to the fund raise campaign for his wife and i am not rich person at all, i did it out of respect for TB.
that being said, i believe every one has right to express their opinion without fear specially on twitter , i am defender of freedom of speech, if you do not like it just put that person on block, but sacking her because she said something you do not like on twitter is stupid and over reacting and complete dictatorship from anet, this will have bad reputation for anet inside game industry because good developers wont work for such dictator company.
It was because of her being toxic toward the community. Not because someone said something she disagreed with. You can disagree in a professional manner which she didn't. Saying I'd rather not discuss this would of ended it there. She instead went full vitriol on people and started making sexist remarks, insulting people etc. All while having her companies name in her profile.
Also note she's been fired for this from other companies so it is clear it is a behavioral pattern at this point. I'm guessing this is more a straw that broke the camels back situation and that she was on thin ice for past behavior and likely behavior while at work too.
Stop acting like developers receive no positivity for their work. Not only that, but sales and player numbers speak for themselves.
They get some positive feed back.. sure.. but how does that change the truth of what I just said?
They make money.. sure.. but how does that change the truth of what I just said?
Then stop acting like it's one-sided. Jesus dude, bitching from customers isn't unique in the video game industry. ANY industry that has customers deals with that.
Which is exactly why all too often employees don't interact socially with customers..in all those other industries.
Also. get real, gamers overall are far worse then I have seen in any other industry ever.
I mean NO other industry has to deal with the asinine hypocritical nature of what MMO developers deal with, can you imagine if someone went into a huge fit over how a Pizza place changed their mushroom vendor and now their pizza sucks, and yet they still eat there every day.. the pizza place would be dumb stuck how stupid this person was, and yet that is what game companies deal with, every single day.
I mean if someone is unhappy with their demist, they spew some hate and find a new dentist. Same with almost every other industry out there.
Yet MMO's have the special honor of people who spew hate upon them and play their game religiously.
Now you and I both know.. no one else deals with that kind of stuff.. so spare me that they don't have to deal with their special plane of hell because of it.
No, you need to get real. I work in customer service, and you're just wrong. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Other industries just have dedicated support staff to take complaints through things such as chat and phone. Video games don't generally take gameplay feedback that way, only dedicated support for technical issues.
EDIT- there's a reason folks that work on video games will actually interact with their customer bases at all on social media. Tell me the last time you saw a fucking claims adjuster do an AMA?
Really?
Do you really think none of us have done customer service? I'll admit, it does seem like some of us haven't.. but if it helps your little charade. I worked as a Maintenance Supervisor/Security for a Hospitality Company for over a decade, I bet.. I can match and beat any 'story' you have.
Then one might think you would act like it.
I do act like it.. keep everyone who is not my private circle, out of my social life. Because fuck dealing with that "work" shit on my private time.
Because dealing with Clients is Work. As I said her mistake was dealing with the Clients on her personal account.
She should never have made where she worked linked to her twitter account, and if she was going to go something like that, she should have made a secondary account to play that game.
Like anyone that works with the public would have the common sense to do.
Hence why all our forum names are not our real names, and we are mostly smart enough to not give out any personal data.
That is exactly the issue though that lead to her firing. She chose to use her real name, job title and company name. She can't say it's private when she links it to her work and posts it for everyone to see. She could have at the very least turned her Twitter account into a private one so that she could have had the choice to approve new followers. This way only your friends can see your Tweets and nothing can be retweeted either. You can't voluntarily choose the 'public' option and then complain about it not being private.
Your stance is a bit of a dangerous mindset. Circumstances matter, reasons for outrage matter, you can't just look at the result and be like, nope that's wrong.
As for your opinion, I disagree, it is a good precedent. It shows you can't be a terrible human being and not face consequence. She is the person who harmed developer/community relations not the other way round.
"We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think the consequences fit the type of offense (without knowing things like if this writer had been warned previously, or other actions had been taken behind the scenes prior to this... stuff like that - it's being presented as community backlash = firing) but still, these weren't official company channels of communication we're talking about here. This is personal communication. I disagree with firing people over things like this.
To the "you can't be a terrible human being and not face consequence" thing... I think consequences should match the offense. I don't think there was a Fire-worthy offense here. Some people argued on social media on the internet! (this would be different if it was on their official forums and the person was acting in an official capacity as a community relations person, but no, this was on social media)... wow! nothing to see here, move along. Seriously.
The consequences for being a terrible human being should be reaping the results they expect to see done unfairly to others. People are rarely fair in their punishments (even in the legal system that is set up to do that), so I'd rather leave it up to a different source. This isn't the place for that discussion, though.
As to the harming of the developer/community: I don't hold the developer responsible for an individual's personal comments. If you do, there's a problem there, IMO. It might be different if it were the CEO or someone in a position where their opinion and mindset were carried through to the rest of the company and decisions made, so by supporting the company I was also supporting that mindset... but this doesn't fall anywhere near that line.
If I held everyone to this standard, I wouldn't be able to shop many places... few companies would have a good standing in my books. Oh, and everyone who voiced an opinion that offended someone would get them fired from whatever job they had... what a wonderful world being suggested here.
Can we go demand the local Supermarket fire a grocery bagger if they made an offensive post on social media? What is the line? Is it just the size of the backlash, the number of people involved or how offended people are (or which group is offended)? And why does this have to link back to their job at all? It makes NO SENSE to me.
My conclusion: this firing based on community backlash is unwarranted especially if it was only the result of mob mentality. (even if the person made stupid, offensive, and unpopular comments)
Edit: partially figued out partial quoting, I think... "
I will bring up that she specifically has been fired for this before and has shown a behavioral issue at this point that likely won't stop any time soon. She has been toxic on her twitter numerous times and again has been fired for this type of behavior from elsewhere before. At this point it is warranted and you don't know if this was the only contributing factor. It might of been the straw that broke the camels back ultimately.
(i'm really unsure why quoting didn't work right there)
It's called PR, people get fired for besmirching a companies image all the time. If you're arguing that it shouldn't be a firable offense you've got a lot of people to stand behind.
the stuff in " " was going back to what someone else said since the quote function didn't work right. What i said was.
" I will bring up that she specifically has been fired for this before and has shown a behavioral issue at this point that likely won't stop any time soon. She has been toxic on her twitter numerous times and again has been fired for this type of behavior from elsewhere before. At this point it is warranted and you don't know if this was the only contributing factor. It might of been the straw that broke the camels back ultimately. "
I'm stating that ultimately she has been fired for this behavior before, has been pretty toxic as a whole on her twitter at times, and it might have been a final contributing factor when taking varying things into account. It may of finally been the one thing too many for arena net and they simply couldn't ignore her behavior overall anymore.
If someone can't deal with the Guild Wars 2 community, I have to wonder what they are doing in game development at all. With few exceptions other than Warframe, you aren't going to find a more friendly community.
Honestly.. the outside of the game community, is pretty shit. The in game community, (not including the raiders/pvp population) is pretty awesome.
Except that they really, really aren't "pretty shit." Even if we look at an actual controversy like this one, the players who participated in this Twitter spat were nothing but respectful, even after being replied to with overt hostility. It was only after a long and unacceptable chain a customer contempt on the part of Ms. Price that there was any community mob. As it turns out, even the best communities do not appreciate overt disrespect and contempt, nor should they.
And that's the exact reason we are here. This imaginary scenario to support the imaginary conclusion that social media communities can only be bad is utter bullshit. All it does is attempt to justify the completely unjustifiable bad behavior of Price.
Precisely. Social media communities have good and bad actors, the only real difference is the anonymity and lack of in-person interaction lower inhibitions of bad actors to speak loudly.
The fear-mongering about the power of the mob mentality seems overblown and misguided. EA gave their latest mob mentality gang the proverbial finger over the female protagonist, to prove the point that companies don't just cave to these mobs for no good reason. And when someone clearly has a history of bad behavior and does something as unjustifiable as Price's response and attempt to put Deroir on blast publicly for merely disagreeing, it's not so much a mob as a group of community members going "Yea, that was shitty as hell. We would not like to support her anymore. ANet, are you okay with your devs being this shitty to your customers?"
Comments
Because dealing with Clients is Work. As I said her mistake was dealing with the Clients on her personal account.
She should never have made where she worked linked to her twitter account, and if she was going to go something like that, she should have made a secondary account to play that game.
Like anyone that works with the public would have the common sense to do.
Hence why all our forum names are not our real names, and we are mostly smart enough to not give out any personal data.
To be clear, I'm not even IN those dedicated complaint support staff offices. Yet I hear the very complaints you quoted above on a daily basis. I can't imagine the type of things heard or read by those in the offices I mentioned, though I do see a small snippet when it's a complaint from a customer within our service area. Gamers are consumers, same as consumers in any other industry. The only reason we all see it more in the gaming industry is because we surf friggin' video game news sites in our free time.
EDIT- Google "man attacks claims adjuster," then Google "man attacks video game developer," and compare the results, then come back and tell me video game devs got it worse than other industries.
and it's not the entitlement, it's the fact they will spew hate on the product and STILL CONTINUE TO USE IT RELIGIOUSLY!
Which was the point you seemed to miss. See when you have to tell a client "no" that ends the exchange, they are not getting the money, and there is nothing further that is going to happen. They may rage, they may freak out, but at the end of the day, they are going to have to do business with someone else.
That is not how MMO's work.
People Rage, Hate, Spew Vitriol, threaten, and all the normal "Pissed off Customer Stuff" but then they stay around.. and do it Again.. and Again.. and AGAIN.. and it's the same people.. that never go away and spew endless hate. They Play the game.. I bet more then the "average" player.. and claim the game sucks, and have nothing good to say.
Sorry.. but.. No.. you don't deal with anything as Bi-Polar Fucked Up as that.
EDIT- I'll list a few more examples to prove the point again: had a customer who filed a claim, like clockwork, once every other year for the same peril that wasn't covered. It was explained to this customer every time this peril was not covered, yet the customer would yell and cry and tell the adjuster we were ruining said customer's life each time. Another customer who I worked with for over 6 months because the customer would demand things we couldn't acquiesce, go MIA for weeks, then come back and demand more things because said customer was angry we hadn't completed the prior unreasonable requests while the customer wasn't answering the phone for weeks at a time. It happens, m'man.
They Spew hate for the game, yet, require, nay, they NEED to keep playing the game because they love it so.. but it sucks..
Or better yet.. You get High praise.. you are loved.. this client thinks you are the best ever.. canceled their account with you months ago and is using a competitor.
I get what you're trying to say, I do, but it's just not some burning circle of customer hell every single day for video game devs. Hell, most don't even interact with the public like Price did; they aren't even really customer service staff, so they can just refrain from engaging with their customers personally if they like. They can leave that to community managers if they want. Anyone who's reasonably intelligent will tell you that you will always have a certain segment of folks you'll never please (and you know this, being reasonably intelligent yourself). There's nothing unique about that within the game development industry.
EDIT- the reason devs get most of their criticism on social media is largely because they're not required to give their customers their personal work phone and email. Plain and simple.
I swear, I'd want to personalize his account, and since I bet he has to pay for each try, I'd just recycle his previous stuff, and ask him how he wants his rejection letter sent this time.
Yah there is always a few that don't get it. Like the guy that would smoke and bring his dog into our facility, and cry about the fine each time, claim it was outrageous and how he was never going to use us again.. till oh.. 6 months later..
yah there are a few crazies.. but.. Just.. feels like MMO's have the market share on them you.. you know. What seems rare and even in some cases memorable for us.. is like their 80% percentile.
I am not saying Twitter wanted it this way, there are very good reasons for the 140 character limit, but they have designed something that is not conducive to rational dialogue.
But for every dog pile shit storm on social media, there's likely 100 (or more) paying customers who silently go about their day enjoying the product, and I'll bet the managers make that clear to developers (if they don't, they absolutely should). Critical acclaim, sales numbers, all of that is positive proof for devs. Similarly, retention rate of customers who have filed a claim is positive proof for us, even if they don't specifically tell us they appreciate our work during the claims process.
In short: crazy's gonna cray. But letting the crazies dictate your day is a good way to become a crazy yourself.
"We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think the consequences fit the type of offense (without knowing things like if this writer had been warned previously, or other actions had been taken behind the scenes prior to this... stuff like that - it's being presented as community backlash = firing) but still, these weren't official company channels of communication we're talking about here. This is personal communication. I disagree with firing people over things like this.
To the "you can't be a terrible human being and not face consequence" thing... I think consequences should match the offense. I don't think there was a Fire-worthy offense here. Some people argued on social media on the internet! (this would be different if it was on their official forums and the person was acting in an official capacity as a community relations person, but no, this was on social media)... wow! nothing to see here, move along. Seriously.
The consequences for being a terrible human being should be reaping the results they expect to see done unfairly to others. People are rarely fair in their punishments (even in the legal system that is set up to do that), so I'd rather leave it up to a different source. This isn't the place for that discussion, though.
As to the harming of the developer/community: I don't hold the developer responsible for an individual's personal comments. If you do, there's a problem there, IMO. It might be different if it were the CEO or someone in a position where their opinion and mindset were carried through to the rest of the company and decisions made, so by supporting the company I was also supporting that mindset... but this doesn't fall anywhere near that line.
If I held everyone to this standard, I wouldn't be able to shop many places... few companies would have a good standing in my books. Oh, and everyone who voiced an opinion that offended someone would get them fired from whatever job they had... what a wonderful world being suggested here.
Can we go demand the local Supermarket fire a grocery bagger if they made an offensive post on social media? What is the line? Is it just the size of the backlash, the number of people involved or how offended people are (or which group is offended)? And why does this have to link back to their job at all? It makes NO SENSE to me.
My conclusion: this firing based on community backlash is unwarranted especially if it was only the result of mob mentality. (even if the person made stupid, offensive, and unpopular comments)
Edit: partially figued out partial quoting, I think... "
I will bring up that she specifically has been fired for this before and has shown a behavioral issue at this point that likely won't stop any time soon. She has been toxic on her twitter numerous times and again has been fired for this type of behavior from elsewhere before. At this point it is warranted and you don't know if this was the only contributing factor. It might of been the straw that broke the camels back ultimately.
(i'm really unsure why quoting didn't work right there)
Just because they may not be involved directly in a game studio doesn't mean a person doesn't understand the game development process. Particularly these days.
Also note she's been fired for this from other companies so it is clear it is a behavioral pattern at this point. I'm guessing this is more a straw that broke the camels back situation and that she was on thin ice for past behavior and likely behavior while at work too.
" I will bring up that she specifically has been fired for this before and has shown a behavioral issue at this point that likely won't stop any time soon. She has been toxic on her twitter numerous times and again has been fired for this type of behavior from elsewhere before. At this point it is warranted and you don't know if this was the only contributing factor. It might of been the straw that broke the camels back ultimately. "
I'm stating that ultimately she has been fired for this behavior before, has been pretty toxic as a whole on her twitter at times, and it might have been a final contributing factor when taking varying things into account. It may of finally been the one thing too many for arena net and they simply couldn't ignore her behavior overall anymore.
The fear-mongering about the power of the mob mentality seems overblown and misguided. EA gave their latest mob mentality gang the proverbial finger over the female protagonist, to prove the point that companies don't just cave to these mobs for no good reason. And when someone clearly has a history of bad behavior and does something as unjustifiable as Price's response and attempt to put Deroir on blast publicly for merely disagreeing, it's not so much a mob as a group of community members going "Yea, that was shitty as hell. We would not like to support her anymore. ANet, are you okay with your devs being this shitty to your customers?"
ANet's response: "Absolutely not."