Arena Net Firing: Games Media Rally To Defend Fired Guild Wars Dev

Darksworm

LackingMMO said:

Free speech is one thing but when your speech represents a company it isn't free anymore, its a reflection of that company. When that company is trying to retain a certain image you cant react to customers in the way she did. 

I saw nothing wrong with her opinion about story telling in mmos, in fact I agree in part with it, her response however is really played out and just exhausted by now honestly. One thing to note too is if this is how she is acting openly then how was she behind the scenes? Might have been the final nail in the coffin, the perfect opportunity to cut the cord.

Honestly, the manner in which she got combative is what is most egregious.

Your choice of weapon matters.

She brought a nuclear missile to a debate, and then fired it on her opponent.

We've evolved past the time when a girl can kick you in the balls and be safe from retaliation because "I'm a girl!"

She gets to enjoy that equality she doesn't seem to realize she has, now.

In unemployment.

Big.Daddy.Samedi

Chimborazo said:

She was definitely stupid and punishing her is right (firing her out of nowhere maybe it's too drastical).

I don't agree with this "reputation" thing, I mean: it didn't really hurt Anet, it's hard for me to imagine that somebody would not buy a product from a company (something complicate as an MMO) because of this situation, everyone just complains cause they like to complain and jumping on the shame train of the week, but seriously: who changes the idea of playing (and pay for) GW2 over this episode?

One thing for sure tho: social networks used this way are dumb, especially Twitter whose purpose is putting you on a pedestal and inviting you to share your thoughts about stuff like you were actually paid to do that in a talkshow. 

Actually, this sort of thing does stop people from buying things. For Example. I chose not to buy Mass Effect Andromeda over the openly racist developer Manveer Heir

[mod edit]

I would also like to note that I would not buy any game or product that would have someone like that on the team either. I do not tolerate this overly PC world, nor do I tolerate racism.

khelbon

A person can have all the talent in the world but when they run their mouth on social media and make a ass out of the company the work for, they get themselves canned.  She needs to learn to keep her opinions to herself next time if there is even a next time.  

Big.Daddy.Samedi

Rhoklaw said:

I don't even work with her and I don't like her.

I believe what @Kyleran said. ANET used this opportunity to release a loose cannon.

Oh and the fact she accuses the creator of D&D, which is a FANTASY RPG, as being a racist and misogynist within his creation, is kind of awkward.

Wait she accused Gygax of being a racist and misogynist?!

tawess

Big.Daddy.Samedi said:

Rhoklaw said:

I don't even work with her and I don't like her.

I believe what @Kyleran said. ANET used this opportunity to release a loose cannon.

Oh and the fact she accuses the creator of D&D, which is a FANTASY RPG, as being a racist and misogynist within his creation, is kind of awkward.

Wait she accused Gygax of being a racist and misogynist?!

Well... To be fair while a product of it´s time... Yeah... DnD was not really a shining beacon of social advancment. It relied heavy on old worn out tropes and well established images, not few of them had racist and sexist origins. Now i do not think this was made with intent. More a lack of better understanding and the sort of progression we have today. 

And WotC have gone a long way to make DnD a game for all. 

Having been part of making a rpg and boardgame convention happen for several years, i have spoken a lot with the "old guard" and well... Many of them tend to be fairly blind to the context of these old games and how they stand in the modern era. 

Big.Daddy.Samedi

tawess said:

Big.Daddy.Samedi said:

Rhoklaw said:

I don't even work with her and I don't like her.

I believe what @Kyleran said. ANET used this opportunity to release a loose cannon.

Oh and the fact she accuses the creator of D&D, which is a FANTASY RPG, as being a racist and misogynist within his creation, is kind of awkward.

Wait she accused Gygax of being a racist and misogynist?!

Well... To be fair while a product of it´s time... Yeah... DnD was not really a shining beacon of social advancment. It relied heavy on old worn out tropes and well established images, not few of them had racist and sexist origins. Now i do not think this was made with intent. More a lack of better understanding and the sort of progression we have today. 

And WotC have gone a long way to make DnD a game for all. 

Having been part of making a rpg and boardgame convention happen for several years, i have spoken a lot with the "old guard" and well... Many of them tend to be fairly blind to the context of these old games and how they stand in the modern era. 

People cannot be held accountable for standards that have come about decades later. It does not matter if it was based on tropes of the time etc.

Gary Gygax was not a sexist nor a racist. This I know from experience and will defend the man until I die.

This anti-everything BS is getting ridiculous... you want change? Fantastic? But you cannot change history or the past.

Ungood

MadFrenchie said:

I think her fatal mistake was taking the customer's tweet and retweeting it to try and put him on blast publicly.  From what I understand, that was the post that got her fired.

In that sense, I agree.  Even if you disagree vehemently with a customer, trying to make them a public punching bag is a huge no-no.

Typically, only 2 people can really pull this off. The Owner and a Retired Employee.

and.. that kids is why so many retired people won't take shit anymore, they are no longer being paid to and have no fear of losing their job.

tawess

Big.Daddy.Samedi said:

1:People cannot be held accountable for standards that have come about decades later. It does not matter if it was based on tropes of the time etc.

2:Gary Gygax was not a sexist nor a racist. This I know from experience and will defend the man until I die.

3:This anti-everything BS is getting ridiculous... you want change? Fantastic? But you cannot change history or the past.

1: Sure they can, but as i said in this case WotC have done pretty much all they can to make up for any sins of the past. Does not change the past but it is doing the right thing. 

2: But you just said that the standard back then was sexis and racist. Ok i am being mean now. No i agree i do not think that Gygax was neither of those things. Just that his product by todays standards are. Then you make what you want from that. 

3: That was pretty much my point. The original DnD came out in a time that was what it was. As such there will alwyas be a legacy it has to live with. WotC have done a good job to implement change and i can´t see anyone seriously trying to say that it is not. 

But, if one want to be a hardcore troll like Price... It is not hard to make the claim seeing as it has a historical kernel of truth in it. 

So... 

TL:DR:  No Gygax was not sexist or racist, but he used images and themes in his product that had their roots on some pretty racist and sexist shit. This still happens today and what is important is what one does once one know. 

But history is history and a troll like Price do not have to reach far to make such a claim. 

Rhoklaw said:

I guess you have to be politically correct in FANTASY land too, otherwise a certain group freaks out. Which is why we have this ongoing deluge of <insert political term> trying to change everything that doesn't fit in today's social world.

Well it all depends on what you base your fantasy world on, and how you write it. But there are a bunch of reserach on the topic i suggest people read up on if they are interested. It is pretty interesting stuff. 

postlarval

She sounds like one of those people who wakes up in the morning looking for things to be offended and outraged over.

Maybe dumpster-diving for food will change her outlook.

Wylf

I agree with each of you who support the firing, well done Arenanet, but the title to this thread was interesting, "

"Games Media Rally To Defend Fired Guild Wars Dev"

I think an interesting question is why, why do professional and semi professional's who write about the gaming industry feel the need to defend this very obnoxious developer?

some-clueless-guy

Wylf said:

I agree with each of you who support the firing, well done Arenanet, but the title to this thread was interesting, "

"Games Media Rally To Defend Fired Guild Wars Dev"

I think an interesting question is why, why do professional and semi professional's who write about the gaming industry feel the need to defend this very obnoxious developer?

I suspect it is because getting fired because of social media outrage is something that might touch them too, something they might have been thinking about for a while, something they are rightfully upset and concerned about; and when the occasion comes, instead of checking the facts to make sure they are backing the right side, they jump to conclusions.

Slapshot1188

Wylf said:

I agree with each of you who support the firing, well done Arenanet, but the title to this thread was interesting, "

"Games Media Rally To Defend Fired Guild Wars Dev"

I think an interesting question is why, why do professional and semi professional's who write about the gaming industry feel the need to defend this very obnoxious developer?

I think if we were honest we would all agree that most journalistic groups skew to the left. That is not a comment on whether it's good or bad.  It's also not saying that ALL journalists lean left.  It's also NOT saying that anyone left of center would defend this person and I can easily find folks on the right that defend dumb people "on their side". 

In hindsight, I think that my feeling I had to go to such great lengths to qualify my first sentence says a lot about the current social climate we live in.

It's sad, but the only solution I see for avoiding a true schism in the USA is to have more political parties form so it's not just 1 extreme shouting at the other extreme.   I'd love to see at least 4 parties:

1. Socially and economically conservative
2. Socially conservative but economically liberal
3. Socially liberal but economically conservative
4. Socially and economically liberal

Maybe even a 5th that was just moderate on all positions

Then we could actually have a dialog and maybe actually break the universal gridlock that paralyzes us. 

Yes, a bit off topic but I think it strikes to the root cause of the true issue.  What you see in this instance is just the symptom of a deeper problem.  Our society is devolving into an Our Side vs Them mentality.   As long as our society consists of 2 sides moving in opposite directions it's only going to get worse.

barasawa

Gorwe said:

Again, they(actually she, but meh) deserved it. But there is something oddly eerie and disturbing about getting fired over the content of your own private accounts / every day life.

If your bathroom is on the local street corner and made of clear glass, would you call that private? 
The account she used was personal, but as it was viewable by anyone that felt like it, it was in no way private.

Big.Daddy.Samedi

**DELETED - Not Worth it**

Tiller

I know she seemed a bit sarcastic and maybe thin skinned, and yeah maybe it's not the attitude to have when dealing with customers, but I also want to add that back in the day CSRs and what not used to bicker and banter with folks all the time on the various game forums in a mater that might seem unprofessional. Anyone remember GarVa, Tiggs and Thunderheart and others from the SOE forums?. Only difference is these day people throw a bigger stink over it.

Side story: I remember this dev who worked for SOE on SWG and got shit canned for something similar. His revenge was to go into the little chat thing we had in SWG Launch Pad and spam it with this fake SOE SWG website he made. It looked legit, till you realized it had a hidden virus and on the front page it featured a pic of him flipping the bird.

Big.Daddy.Samedi

Gorwe said:

barasawa said:

Gorwe said:

Again, they(actually she, but meh) deserved it. But there is something oddly eerie and disturbing about getting fired over the content of your own private accounts / every day life.

If your bathroom is on the local street corner and made of clear glass, would you call that private? 
The account she used was personal, but as it was viewable by anyone that felt like it, it was in no way private.

Semantics. If you tell a guy in a store that your employer is an asshat, should you be fired? Technically, yes. Because someone can trace you back to where you work and how you cause "net negative" for your firm. Perfectly sound, but what about FREEDOM? Too much "thinking" in today's world imo.

The problem is that she has her work in her profile therefor causing her to be a representative of the company even when she is not on the clock.

Similar to your analogy it would be like getting off shift and outside the store, while still wearing company oriented clothing, badmouthing the customer for no reason other than they looked at you funny. AND THEN trying to get everyone else to badmouth them as well.

Chimborazo

Big.Daddy.Samedi said:

Chimborazo said:

She was definitely stupid and punishing her is right (firing her out of nowhere maybe it's too drastical).

I don't agree with this "reputation" thing, I mean: it didn't really hurt Anet, it's hard for me to imagine that somebody would not buy a product from a company (something complicate as an MMO) because of this situation, everyone just complains cause they like to complain and jumping on the shame train of the week, but seriously: who changes the idea of playing (and pay for) GW2 over this episode?

One thing for sure tho: social networks used this way are dumb, especially Twitter whose purpose is putting you on a pedestal and inviting you to share your thoughts about stuff like you were actually paid to do that in a talkshow. 

Actually, this sort of thing does stop people from buying things. For Example. I chose not to buy Mass Effect Andromeda over the openly racist developer Manveer Heir

[mod edit]

I would also like to note that I would not buy any game or product that would have someone like that on the team either. I do not tolerate this overly PC world, nor do I tolerate racism.

You're a rare breed, most people are like "Omg I was going to buy that, but now I'm not" just to make the people they don't like feeling "punished".

Bakgrind

People are never going to learn that Social Media is the bane of mankind and should be avoided at all cost.   

Big.Daddy.Samedi

Tiller said:

I know she seemed a bit sarcastic and maybe thin skinned, and yeah maybe it's not the attitude to have when dealing with customers, but I also want to add that back in the day CSRs and what not used to bicker and banter with folks all the time on the various game forums in a mater that might seem unprofessional. Anyone remember GarVa, Tiggs and Thunderheart and others from the SOE forums?. Only difference is these day people throw a bigger stink over it.

I think the bigger issue here is that there was little to no cause for her to react the way she did to a community member. Then on top of it all she starts throwing around the idea that they were being sexist... this is the sort of thing people lose jobs ov...... oh wait.

Slapshot1188

Gorwe said:

Big.Daddy.Samedi said:

Gorwe said:

barasawa said:

Gorwe said:

Again, they(actually she, but meh) deserved it. But there is something oddly eerie and disturbing about getting fired over the content of your own private accounts / every day life.

If your bathroom is on the local street corner and made of clear glass, would you call that private? 
The account she used was personal, but as it was viewable by anyone that felt like it, it was in no way private.

Semantics. If you tell a guy in a store that your employer is an asshat, should you be fired? Technically, yes. Because someone can trace you back to where you work and how you cause "net negative" for your firm. Perfectly sound, but what about FREEDOM? Too much "thinking" in today's world imo.

The problem is that she has her work in her profile therefor causing her to be a representative of the company even when she is not on the clock.

Similar to your analogy it would be like getting off shift and outside the store, while still wearing company oriented clothing, badmouthing the customer for no reason other than they looked at you funny. AND THEN trying to get everyone else to badmouth them as well.

Ok, but think real hard about the power ANet handed over to the mob right now. Mob + power. Has this resulted in anything good? Ever?

But think real hard about what really happened.  SHE attempted to call down the power of the mob on some poor guy. SHE retweeted it and tried to make the world think that poor guy was some sexist jerk when in fact his exchange was one of the most polite things you can find on the internet.

Also, SHE started the conversation by saying she wanted to discuss the writing for PC characters thread.  It's not like some guy just hunted down her twitter and started harassing her.  She said she wanted to talk about this and then went insane when the most polite guy in the universe gave the mildest and most "slight" disagreement ever.  

If you are going to try and rally the internet against some poor guy then you had better be prepared to have it boomerang on you.  Karma, as they say, can be a real Bitch.

LackingMMO

I think the thing too that people are missing is she used her position to continue an AMA on the game. Even if it was "her" account, she was using a personal account at that point for her employer. 

Also, this was not a mob mentality at all, this was a one sided attack for no reason at all under the guise of fighting a sexist comment. Her reasoning and retaliation was completely unwarranted. Especially when the other side walked away and she continued on. 

Wylf

Gorwe said:

Ok, but think real hard about the power ANet handed over to the mob right now. Mob + power. Has this resulted in anything good? Ever?

It would appear that you believe that ArenaNet only fired her because the Mob called for her head. I respectfully disagree. Give the company some credit, they fired an employee who had a troubled past, who unjustifiably and maliciously attacked a respected member of the GW2 community, and then compounded the issue by slandering that member and trying to label him a sexist.

ArenaNet took the only reasonably action they could.

maskedweasel

Big.Daddy.Samedi said:

This anti-everything BS is getting ridiculous... you want change? Fantastic? But you cannot change history or the past.

d_20

Gorwe said:

Wylf said:

Gorwe said:

Ok, but think real hard about the power ANet handed over to the mob right now. Mob + power. Has this resulted in anything good? Ever?

It would appear that you believe that ArenaNet only fired her because the Mob called for her head. I respectfully disagree. Give the company some credit, they fired an employee who had a troubled past, who unjustifiably and maliciously attacked a respected member of the GW2 community, and then compounded the issue by slandering that member and trying to label him a sexist.

ArenaNet took the only reasonably action they could.

They also tossed them to the wolves. Starving, ravenous wolves. Oh, and the other guy probably got fired just because he is a he and so she couldn't pull discrimination bullshit on them. Free market can go and fuck itself. Employees need protection. She should've been just reprimanded, not fired.

Maybe she'd already been reprimanded. We don't know the details of her work history there.

Darksworm

Gorwe said:

Big.Daddy.Samedi said:

Gorwe said:

barasawa said:

Gorwe said:

Again, they(actually she, but meh) deserved it. But there is something oddly eerie and disturbing about getting fired over the content of your own private accounts / every day life.

If your bathroom is on the local street corner and made of clear glass, would you call that private? 
The account she used was personal, but as it was viewable by anyone that felt like it, it was in no way private.

Semantics. If you tell a guy in a store that your employer is an asshat, should you be fired? Technically, yes. Because someone can trace you back to where you work and how you cause "net negative" for your firm. Perfectly sound, but what about FREEDOM? Too much "thinking" in today's world imo.

The problem is that she has her work in her profile therefor causing her to be a representative of the company even when she is not on the clock.

Similar to your analogy it would be like getting off shift and outside the store, while still wearing company oriented clothing, badmouthing the customer for no reason other than they looked at you funny. AND THEN trying to get everyone else to badmouth them as well.

Ok, but think real hard about the power ANet handed over to the mob right now. Mob + power. Has this resulted in anything good? Ever?

Bakgrind said:

People are never going to learn that Social Media is the bane of mankind and should be avoided at all cost.   

Definitely, fuck them. Evil, evil things.

Your first point is completely invalid.  You're completely ignoring that these people MOB up just as much as anyone else.  Have you been to a college campus lately?  They're actually worse, IMO.  They will literally bash your head in to support the type of drivel this developer was vomiting on onto Twitter; and companies like Twitter will happily ban you for "Harassment" when you call them out on it.

Corporate American has completely braced this subculture, which is why they tip toe around these issues and main stream media get outraged when they see one of their own sacked for towing the "party line."

I see no difference between giving power to someone like this developer and giving power to David Duke.  They are both awful people with an awful ideology.  Even then, she makes Duke seem like a pleasant fellow, given her communication style (which is rampant on Social Media - why I don't participate in it).