I was thinking today after seeing a multi-accounter in WoW with 8 characters following him and it was very easy to tell it was the same person controlling all 8 characters...
But MMOs are about grouping, the social atmosphere and teaming up with others. Because if not, then its no different than playing a singleplayer RPG if all you are doing is doing all the group content by yourself.
One problem of multi-accounters comes from forced group MMOs (Pantheon will be a big issue if they don't deal with it)...but a previous MMO where this was a problem was Vanguard Saga of Heroes. Vast majority of content was grouping only...but then here comes a multi-accounter to solo it with all his characters.
How in any point is that fair for someone who can't afford all those accounts+PC(s) to set it all up? A game that forces grouping, but someone with money can just come along and solo it...which also completely nullifies the forced grouping part of the game.
Or end game in WoW. I've seen a multi accounter youtube video with over 20 accounts...soloing endgame content...by himself...
Not only does that make the forced grouping part of the game nullified, but that also ruins the social atmosphere. Why group at all when you can have potentially dozens of accounts to pretty much solo for you? Isn't the point however, of MMOs, to group? And why many MMOs have forced grouping content?
MMO developers either need to make content for everyone, even endgame content, making multi-accounting pointless so its fair for everyone...or really start cracking down on people who bypass forced group content with all their accounts they control by themselves, so its fair for everyone.
bullshit. multi account mmos have been a thing since daoc. you needed a buffbot (shamy), so someone ran a 2nd acc, parked it in emain, and buffed all his mates running by.
20 years later you guys wanna claim this "now screws up mmos"? yea, nope.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Well, I do have 4 subs active atm, but I've set them to expire in Aug. My time is done perhaps.
Has Kyleran done a truth and reconciliation about his multi-accounting yet?
Well, in the exit survey I did let CCP know that I was able to verify the negative impact of the removal of off grid boosting to miners (my reason for canceling 6 accounts back in 2016) as my corp mates aptly demonstrated getting two Rorqs caught in my first month back in game.
Other jocularity I didn't mention, miners were bubbling every gate they could trying to get more warning making travel for other activities annoying, site runners couldn't and they took several big losses that I observed. (Poor intel network)
Just my luck, 3 weeks in and an officer looted the corp, took untold billions in assets (none of mine), said he was "bored."
I did however remind CCP once again I was a cash customer leaving, I've always paid sub fees for my accounts, never using PLEX.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well, I do have 4 subs active atm, but I've set them to expire in Aug. My time is done perhaps.
I guess that explains why I have had an increase in the "Come back and join" emails from ccp lately. You would think that after 10 yrs away that they would take a hint.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
I was thinking today after seeing a multi-accounter in WoW with 8 characters following him and it was very easy to tell it was the same person controlling all 8 characters...
But MMOs are about grouping, the social atmosphere and teaming up with others. Because if not, then its no different than playing a singleplayer RPG if all you are doing is doing all the group content by yourself.
One problem of multi-accounters comes from forced group MMOs (Pantheon will be a big issue if they don't deal with it)...but a previous MMO where this was a problem was Vanguard Saga of Heroes. Vast majority of content was grouping only...but then here comes a multi-accounter to solo it with all his characters.
How in any point is that fair for someone who can't afford all those accounts+PC(s) to set it all up? A game that forces grouping, but someone with money can just come along and solo it...which also completely nullifies the forced grouping part of the game.
Or end game in WoW. I've seen a multi accounter youtube video with over 20 accounts...soloing endgame content...by himself...
Not only does that make the forced grouping part of the game nullified, but that also ruins the social atmosphere. Why group at all when you can have potentially dozens of accounts to pretty much solo for you? Isn't the point however, of MMOs, to group? And why many MMOs have forced grouping content?
MMO developers either need to make content for everyone, even endgame content, making multi-accounting pointless so its fair for everyone...or really start cracking down on people who bypass forced group content with all their accounts they control by themselves, so its fair for everyone.
bullshit. multi account mmos have been a thing since daoc. you needed a buffbot (shamy), so someone ran a 2nd acc, parked it in emain, and buffed all his mates running by.
20 years later you guys wanna claim this "now screws up mmos"? yea, nope.
It would be remiss not to mention Mythic launched classic servers in 2005 which limited the range of conc buffs, significantly reducing the effectiveness and use of buff bots, especially in PVP.
Many players did feel buffbots unbalanced the games RVR which I'll agree with, since I dedided to multi box partially for that reason.
It also permitted me to solo PVE which was great for alt leveling or helping fellow guildmates level up the more challenging classes such as stealthers or healers.
Might even still be true in the current servers as it was pretty popular.
On the Uthgard free shard multi boxing is a bannable offense which even a year and a half post launch (and a mostly dead server) they still vigorously enforce.
One reason I quit the free shard was the restriction on multi accounts proved onerous once the population surge abated and it became very challenging to get a decent group together.
After getting my first character to 50 pretty easily by grouping, I managed to solo a chanter and druid to the early to mid 40s but gave up when groups vanished and I wasn't willing to risk multiboxing which several of my friends had started resorting to.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well, I do have 4 subs active atm, but I've set them to expire in Aug. My time is done perhaps.
I guess that explains why I have had an increase in the "Come back and join" emails from ccp lately. You would think that after 10 yrs away that they would take a hint.
On the plus side they made it very easy to quit, especially nice was the feature where removing my credit card info from one account automatically removed it from my other three. Still had to cancel them individually though.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Multi-Accounting and Multi-Boxing are the P2W approach for monthly subs. This is how those with more money/resources were able to outperform those with just one account/computer.
I can remember seeing it in the late 80's with the first MMO's. The cost per minute made it a rich mans game... and many who wanted to play, but could not afford it were able to because others paid for their online time.
Later, in the 90's, when more bandwidth was available, there was an increase in multi boxing, as one person could have multiple computers at one location. As technology improved, it eventually became feasible to have multiple instances on a single computer.
Monthly subs have always promoted P2W via group play... and eventually dumbing down gameplay so that it could be done with less human interaction. This simplification of gameplay, balanced by the need for multiple active accounts is how the monthly account was able to milk the whales.
The trend swung back too more human interaction, by offering free accounts, and encouraging the whales to buy items for these accounts (rather than monthly subs). This fueled the explosion of the F2P MMORPG's, but also started to replace human players with more automation. Much of this was multi-boxing (usually on the same machine) but game also stated adding more automaton into the game itself.
If you look at how games have changed in cycles over the years, you can see how much of this was done to chase the money from the big spenders.
I dont see the argument, firstly ive never been shy to admit i multi-account (its not multi-box as its all on same pc) with EvE - Even now when ive been inactive for 3 months, i have 4 active accounts, 1 is a pirate 3 fall under the industry line (and no not mining)
But these 4 accounts are probably the average number of accounts i have had in my 10 years of eve, sometimes this number has been as high as 15 accounts all active, and all individually controlled, no scripts / no bots all seperate commands. In fact weirdly enough i had lost 1 of my passwords so needed CCP to reset it, but having forgotton the exact email i used at time, they asked me to confirm which one of the 58 accounts it was i was trying to reset, that was 3 years ago.
But, onto the OP post, i see people saying its p2w, i dont see how given that in PvE the loot table is the same for the 10 (example number) players who all run 1 acounts as it would be for 1 player running 10 accounts. the only difference is the person behind the keybaord is going to guarantee the drop butr which item / class well that cant be decided until loot drops. Also, it would be no time at all until they have exhausted the loot table and then having the 10 accounts is pointless other than having 10 geared playes for PvE. Now, PvP if they are controlled via a single input then it would be VERY simple to counter because the moment 1 toon is killed then the inputs become invalid and would be VERY hard work to get them back so all are in same area / doing same thing.
Fact for me is simple, if the EULA allows multi-boxing then its fine, if they pay their subs its fine, its only when htey doing it via scripts/bots that i have hte issue, an i have no issue immediatly reporting, and have done on many 100s of occasions.
Multi-Accounting and Multi-Boxing are the P2W approach for monthly subs. This is how those with more money/resources were able to outperform those with just one account/computer.
I can remember seeing it in the late 80's with the first MMO's. The cost per minute made it a rich mans game... and many who wanted to play, but could not afford it were able to because others paid for their online time.
Later, in the 90's, when more bandwidth was available, there was an increase in multi boxing, as one person could have multiple computers at one location. As technology improved, it eventually became feasible to have multiple instances on a single computer.
Monthly subs have always promoted P2W via group play... and eventually dumbing down gameplay so that it could be done with less human interaction. This simplification of gameplay, balanced by the need for multiple active accounts is how the monthly account was able to milk the whales.
The trend swung back too more human interaction, by offering free accounts, and encouraging the whales to buy items for these accounts (rather than monthly subs). This fueled the explosion of the F2P MMORPG's, but also started to replace human players with more automation. Much of this was multi-boxing (usually on the same machine) but game also stated adding more automaton into the game itself.
If you look at how games have changed in cycles over the years, you can see how much of this was done to chase the money from the big spenders.
Good analysis, of course many designs were made or permitted to extract more money.
EVE'S design clearly promotes having multiple accounts and generally makes it worth every player's while to have 2 or 3.
Interestingly enough though, their banning of ISBoxer and the off grid boosting changes cost them regular subs, but they must have decided the benefits outweighed the financial losses.
DAOC also supported multiple accounts with buff bots, and my guess really only removed it after the time had long since past when anyone was doing much (or even playing) for that matter.
I had multiple accounts in some of the post WOW (aka clone) era MMOs such as LOTRO, WOW, WAR, AOC, Rift and Aion, mostly for family members who often lost interest quickly.
I found multiple accounts in this batch of games not very useful as either they penalized grouped characters too much, or the classes didn't really require a dependency on others to survive, we had reached the era of solo viability.
By the modern era of TSW, TERA, SWTOR, ESO, and AA, I felt no need to play multiple accounts. A win I guess of sorts, except Devs no longer got much in revenue from me as I never really fell much for the whole cash shop model.
If they had only offered me an automatic "I Win" button to kill in game asshats, I'd have paid small fortunes for something like that.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I am really surprised to see so many people on this site defending, even championing, multiboxing. I mean, if someone says they duped an item or something everyone goes crazy around here. If someone is botting, you all go crazy.
Multiboxing is OK, though?
It a ridiculous concept and whether or not a game allows it, it's a form of cheating.
I mean, I just ignore it when I see it.. it doesn't bother me. But I do think to myself, every time, that it's pathetic that something like that is allowed when devs are constantly struggling and putting major effort into balance and things like that.
What is the point in nerfing a single Hunter's OP skill when someone is legitimately allowed to play 5 Hunters at the same time? Stupid.
If a game company allows multi-boxing from their point of view it isn't cheating, and their point of view is the defining one, not yours.
In the case where multi-boxing isn't allowed then the company defines it as cheating, with your agreement simply a matter of coincidence.
Duping and botting are different matters, where the game is being used in ways not intended which often negatively impacts on legitimate players, so will obviously be generally viewed poorly. Permitted multi-boxing is using the game as intended, so won't be viewed as poorly.
I am really surprised to see so many people on this site defending, even championing, multiboxing. I mean, if someone says they duped an item or something everyone goes crazy around here. If someone is botting, you all go crazy.
Multiboxing is OK, though?
It a ridiculous concept and whether or not a game allows it, it's a form of cheating.
I mean, I just ignore it when I see it.. it doesn't bother me. But I do think to myself, every time, that it's pathetic that something like that is allowed when devs are constantly struggling and putting major effort into balance and things like that.
What is the point in nerfing a single Hunter's OP skill when someone is legitimately allowed to play 5 Hunters at the same time? Stupid.
If a game company allows multi-boxing from their point of view it isn't cheating, and their point of view is the defining one, not yours.
In the case where multi-boxing isn't allowed then the company defines it as cheating, with your agreement simply a matter of coincidence.
Duping and botting are different matters, where the game is being used in ways not intended which often negatively impacts on legitimate players, so will obviously be generally viewed poorly. Permitted multi-boxing is using the game as intended, so won't be viewed as poorly.
Cheating is cheating. Games that allow multiboxing are basically saying cheating is allowed here.. but it's still cheating. A dog is a dog.. the owner can say it's a cat, but that doesn't make it a cat. If it was built into the game engine with user interfaces and stuff to facilitate it so that every player can make use of it as a feature, then I'll agree it's part of the game. If not, doesn't matter what you say or what they say.. it's cheating.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
I am really surprised to see so many people on this site defending, even championing, multiboxing. I mean, if someone says they duped an item or something everyone goes crazy around here. If someone is botting, you all go crazy.
Multiboxing is OK, though?
It a ridiculous concept and whether or not a game allows it, it's a form of cheating.
I mean, I just ignore it when I see it.. it doesn't bother me. But I do think to myself, every time, that it's pathetic that something like that is allowed when devs are constantly struggling and putting major effort into balance and things like that.
What is the point in nerfing a single Hunter's OP skill when someone is legitimately allowed to play 5 Hunters at the same time? Stupid.
If a game company allows multi-boxing from their point of view it isn't cheating, and their point of view is the defining one, not yours.
In the case where multi-boxing isn't allowed then the company defines it as cheating, with your agreement simply a matter of coincidence.
Duping and botting are different matters, where the game is being used in ways not intended which often negatively impacts on legitimate players, so will obviously be generally viewed poorly. Permitted multi-boxing is using the game as intended, so won't be viewed as poorly.
Cheating is cheating. Games that allow multiboxing are basically saying cheating is allowed here.. but it's still cheating. A dog is a dog.. the owner can say it's a cat, but that doesn't make it a cat. If it was built into the game engine with user interfaces and stuff to facilitate it so that every player can make use of it as a feature, then I'll agree it's part of the game. If not, doesn't matter what you say or what they say.. it's cheating.
As far as I know every user can choose to multibox and as the game devs either don't prohibit it and often support doing so, it's not cheating no matter what you believe.
By your logicz as I am unable to play 12 to 14 hours a day those who do so are "cheating."
Or how about those who have kick arse PCs and macro enabled keyboards and mice, while I don't, cheating?
Third party overlays and UIs, cheating?
Of course not, all permitted by the devs in most cases.
Heck, what is next, Discord is cheating because Devs didn't build it into the game?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I am really surprised to see so many people on this site defending, even championing, multiboxing. I mean, if someone says they duped an item or something everyone goes crazy around here. If someone is botting, you all go crazy.
Multiboxing is OK, though?
It a ridiculous concept and whether or not a game allows it, it's a form of cheating.
I mean, I just ignore it when I see it.. it doesn't bother me. But I do think to myself, every time, that it's pathetic that something like that is allowed when devs are constantly struggling and putting major effort into balance and things like that.
What is the point in nerfing a single Hunter's OP skill when someone is legitimately allowed to play 5 Hunters at the same time? Stupid.
If a game company allows multi-boxing from their point of view it isn't cheating, and their point of view is the defining one, not yours.
In the case where multi-boxing isn't allowed then the company defines it as cheating, with your agreement simply a matter of coincidence.
Duping and botting are different matters, where the game is being used in ways not intended which often negatively impacts on legitimate players, so will obviously be generally viewed poorly. Permitted multi-boxing is using the game as intended, so won't be viewed as poorly.
Cheating is cheating. Games that allow multiboxing are basically saying cheating is allowed here.. but it's still cheating. A dog is a dog.. the owner can say it's a cat, but that doesn't make it a cat. If it was built into the game engine with user interfaces and stuff to facilitate it so that every player can make use of it as a feature, then I'll agree it's part of the game. If not, doesn't matter what you say or what they say.. it's cheating.
As far as I know every user can choose to multibox and as the game devs either don't prohibit it and often support doing so, it's not cheating no matter what you believe.
if every user can choose to activate god mode and it was allowed by the devs and often supported, it still be cheating
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
I am really surprised to see so many people on this site defending, even championing, multiboxing. I mean, if someone says they duped an item or something everyone goes crazy around here. If someone is botting, you all go crazy.
Multiboxing is OK, though?
It a ridiculous concept and whether or not a game allows it, it's a form of cheating.
I mean, I just ignore it when I see it.. it doesn't bother me. But I do think to myself, every time, that it's pathetic that something like that is allowed when devs are constantly struggling and putting major effort into balance and things like that.
What is the point in nerfing a single Hunter's OP skill when someone is legitimately allowed to play 5 Hunters at the same time? Stupid.
If a game company allows multi-boxing from their point of view it isn't cheating, and their point of view is the defining one, not yours.
In the case where multi-boxing isn't allowed then the company defines it as cheating, with your agreement simply a matter of coincidence.
Duping and botting are different matters, where the game is being used in ways not intended which often negatively impacts on legitimate players, so will obviously be generally viewed poorly. Permitted multi-boxing is using the game as intended, so won't be viewed as poorly.
Cheating is cheating. Games that allow multiboxing are basically saying cheating is allowed here.. but it's still cheating. A dog is a dog.. the owner can say it's a cat, but that doesn't make it a cat. If it was built into the game engine with user interfaces and stuff to facilitate it so that every player can make use of it as a feature, then I'll agree it's part of the game. If not, doesn't matter what you say or what they say.. it's cheating.
When you operate your own game you can define what constitutes cheating on it. Until then your opinion doesn't get to substitute for the declaration of the game provider.
This is not a case where the tail gets to wag the dog.
I am really surprised to see so many people on this site defending, even championing, multiboxing. I mean, if someone says they duped an item or something everyone goes crazy around here. If someone is botting, you all go crazy.
Multiboxing is OK, though?
It a ridiculous concept and whether or not a game allows it, it's a form of cheating.
I mean, I just ignore it when I see it.. it doesn't bother me. But I do think to myself, every time, that it's pathetic that something like that is allowed when devs are constantly struggling and putting major effort into balance and things like that.
What is the point in nerfing a single Hunter's OP skill when someone is legitimately allowed to play 5 Hunters at the same time? Stupid.
If a game company allows multi-boxing from their point of view it isn't cheating, and their point of view is the defining one, not yours.
In the case where multi-boxing isn't allowed then the company defines it as cheating, with your agreement simply a matter of coincidence.
Duping and botting are different matters, where the game is being used in ways not intended which often negatively impacts on legitimate players, so will obviously be generally viewed poorly. Permitted multi-boxing is using the game as intended, so won't be viewed as poorly.
Cheating is cheating. Games that allow multiboxing are basically saying cheating is allowed here.. but it's still cheating. A dog is a dog.. the owner can say it's a cat, but that doesn't make it a cat. If it was built into the game engine with user interfaces and stuff to facilitate it so that every player can make use of it as a feature, then I'll agree it's part of the game. If not, doesn't matter what you say or what they say.. it's cheating.
When you operate your own game you can define what constitutes cheating on it. Until then your opinion doesn't get to substitute for the declaration of the game provider.
This is not a case where the tail gets to wag the dog.
Cheaters pretending they aren't cheating because they say it isn't cheating, that's all this is.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
I am really surprised to see so many people on this site defending, even championing, multiboxing. I mean, if someone says they duped an item or something everyone goes crazy around here. If someone is botting, you all go crazy.
Multiboxing is OK, though?
It a ridiculous concept and whether or not a game allows it, it's a form of cheating.
I mean, I just ignore it when I see it.. it doesn't bother me. But I do think to myself, every time, that it's pathetic that something like that is allowed when devs are constantly struggling and putting major effort into balance and things like that.
What is the point in nerfing a single Hunter's OP skill when someone is legitimately allowed to play 5 Hunters at the same time? Stupid.
If a game company allows multi-boxing from their point of view it isn't cheating, and their point of view is the defining one, not yours.
In the case where multi-boxing isn't allowed then the company defines it as cheating, with your agreement simply a matter of coincidence.
Duping and botting are different matters, where the game is being used in ways not intended which often negatively impacts on legitimate players, so will obviously be generally viewed poorly. Permitted multi-boxing is using the game as intended, so won't be viewed as poorly.
Cheating is cheating. Games that allow multiboxing are basically saying cheating is allowed here.. but it's still cheating. A dog is a dog.. the owner can say it's a cat, but that doesn't make it a cat. If it was built into the game engine with user interfaces and stuff to facilitate it so that every player can make use of it as a feature, then I'll agree it's part of the game. If not, doesn't matter what you say or what they say.. it's cheating.
When you operate your own game you can define what constitutes cheating on it. Until then your opinion doesn't get to substitute for the declaration of the game provider.
This is not a case where the tail gets to wag the dog.
Cheaters pretending they aren't cheating because they say it isn't cheating, that's all this is.
Cheating is defined by the rules of the game, which are written by the developer/publisher.
Not by what you think should be cheating.
I'm not saying that it doesn't suck sometimes, but that's how it is.
Yes, developers that like to have cheating in their games so they say it isn't cheating.
Honestly, guys, you ain't going to change my mind.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
I am really surprised to see so many people on this site defending, even championing, multiboxing. I mean, if someone says they duped an item or something everyone goes crazy around here. If someone is botting, you all go crazy.
Multiboxing is OK, though?
It a ridiculous concept and whether or not a game allows it, it's a form of cheating.
I mean, I just ignore it when I see it.. it doesn't bother me. But I do think to myself, every time, that it's pathetic that something like that is allowed when devs are constantly struggling and putting major effort into balance and things like that.
What is the point in nerfing a single Hunter's OP skill when someone is legitimately allowed to play 5 Hunters at the same time? Stupid.
If a game company allows multi-boxing from their point of view it isn't cheating, and their point of view is the defining one, not yours.
In the case where multi-boxing isn't allowed then the company defines it as cheating, with your agreement simply a matter of coincidence.
Duping and botting are different matters, where the game is being used in ways not intended which often negatively impacts on legitimate players, so will obviously be generally viewed poorly. Permitted multi-boxing is using the game as intended, so won't be viewed as poorly.
Cheating is cheating. Games that allow multiboxing are basically saying cheating is allowed here.. but it's still cheating. A dog is a dog.. the owner can say it's a cat, but that doesn't make it a cat. If it was built into the game engine with user interfaces and stuff to facilitate it so that every player can make use of it as a feature, then I'll agree it's part of the game. If not, doesn't matter what you say or what they say.. it's cheating.
When you operate your own game you can define what constitutes cheating on it. Until then your opinion doesn't get to substitute for the declaration of the game provider.
This is not a case where the tail gets to wag the dog.
Cheaters pretending they aren't cheating because they say it isn't cheating, that's all this is.
Ah, the classic, "I know you are, but what am I" comeback. It's an ironclad defense. No getting through fingers in the ears syndrome.
There isn't anything for me to defend. You guys are happy cheating and acting like you aren't. There's not much more to say about it.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
I am really surprised to see so many people on this site defending, even championing, multiboxing. I mean, if someone says they duped an item or something everyone goes crazy around here. If someone is botting, you all go crazy.
Multiboxing is OK, though?
It a ridiculous concept and whether or not a game allows it, it's a form of cheating.
I mean, I just ignore it when I see it.. it doesn't bother me. But I do think to myself, every time, that it's pathetic that something like that is allowed when devs are constantly struggling and putting major effort into balance and things like that.
What is the point in nerfing a single Hunter's OP skill when someone is legitimately allowed to play 5 Hunters at the same time? Stupid.
If a game company allows multi-boxing from their point of view it isn't cheating, and their point of view is the defining one, not yours.
In the case where multi-boxing isn't allowed then the company defines it as cheating, with your agreement simply a matter of coincidence.
Duping and botting are different matters, where the game is being used in ways not intended which often negatively impacts on legitimate players, so will obviously be generally viewed poorly. Permitted multi-boxing is using the game as intended, so won't be viewed as poorly.
Cheating is cheating. Games that allow multiboxing are basically saying cheating is allowed here.. but it's still cheating. A dog is a dog.. the owner can say it's a cat, but that doesn't make it a cat. If it was built into the game engine with user interfaces and stuff to facilitate it so that every player can make use of it as a feature, then I'll agree it's part of the game. If not, doesn't matter what you say or what they say.. it's cheating.
When you operate your own game you can define what constitutes cheating on it. Until then your opinion doesn't get to substitute for the declaration of the game provider.
This is not a case where the tail gets to wag the dog.
Cheaters pretending they aren't cheating because they say it isn't cheating, that's all this is.
Cheating is defined by the rules of the game, which are written by the developer/publisher.
Not by what you think should be cheating.
I'm not saying that it doesn't suck sometimes, but that's how it is.
Yes, developers that like to have cheating in their games so they say it isn't cheating.
Honestly, guys, you ain't going to change my mind.
I invite you to revisit the meaning of "rules" in games. You are here insulting people who play by the rules of the games they participate in, while you pretend force your own rule of "what is right or wrong" in games you didn't design nor publish.
Guess who is wrong here...
Dang, I hate zealots.
There's two ways you can look at it.. either a game allows something, so it isn't cheating.. or a game allows cheating.
I didn't say anything was right or wrong. I said it was cheating, which is doing something unfairly which gains you an advantage, and if you're happy doing it when it is allowed then you have every right to do so. Even if it is allowed, it is still unfair to people without the means to do it and it still gains you an advantage over those people. It's cheating by complete definition, even if you won't be punished for it.
Either way, do what you must to have fun. I, personally, won't do something like it even if it is technically allowed. I just see it as a cheap kind of gameplay, it's no fun and doesn't allow you to gain any real achievement. I'm not trying to tell anyone you can't or shouldn't do it if a game allows it. But, if a game was rampant with it I certainly wouldn't play that game because of it. I almost quit LOTRO a few times when I saw small armies roaming around. Thankfully, I've never seen it outside of the starting areas. I guess they just do it to farm LOTRO points in the starter zones or something.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
I am really surprised to see so many people on this site defending, even championing, multiboxing. I mean, if someone says they duped an item or something everyone goes crazy around here. If someone is botting, you all go crazy.
Multiboxing is OK, though?
It a ridiculous concept and whether or not a game allows it, it's a form of cheating.
I mean, I just ignore it when I see it.. it doesn't bother me. But I do think to myself, every time, that it's pathetic that something like that is allowed when devs are constantly struggling and putting major effort into balance and things like that.
What is the point in nerfing a single Hunter's OP skill when someone is legitimately allowed to play 5 Hunters at the same time? Stupid.
If a game company allows multi-boxing from their point of view it isn't cheating, and their point of view is the defining one, not yours.
In the case where multi-boxing isn't allowed then the company defines it as cheating, with your agreement simply a matter of coincidence.
Duping and botting are different matters, where the game is being used in ways not intended which often negatively impacts on legitimate players, so will obviously be generally viewed poorly. Permitted multi-boxing is using the game as intended, so won't be viewed as poorly.
Cheating is cheating. Games that allow multiboxing are basically saying cheating is allowed here.. but it's still cheating. A dog is a dog.. the owner can say it's a cat, but that doesn't make it a cat. If it was built into the game engine with user interfaces and stuff to facilitate it so that every player can make use of it as a feature, then I'll agree it's part of the game. If not, doesn't matter what you say or what they say.. it's cheating.
When you operate your own game you can define what constitutes cheating on it. Until then your opinion doesn't get to substitute for the declaration of the game provider.
This is not a case where the tail gets to wag the dog.
Cheaters pretending they aren't cheating because they say it isn't cheating, that's all this is.
Cheating is defined by the rules of the game, which are written by the developer/publisher.
Not by what you think should be cheating.
I'm not saying that it doesn't suck sometimes, but that's how it is.
Yes, developers that like to have cheating in their games so they say it isn't cheating.
Honestly, guys, you ain't going to change my mind.
I invite you to revisit the meaning of "rules" in games. You are here insulting people who play by the rules of the games they participate in, while you pretend force your own rule of "what is right or wrong" in games you didn't design nor publish.
Guess who is wrong here...
Dang, I hate zealots.
There's two ways you can look at it.. either a game allows something, so it isn't cheating.. or a game allows cheating.
I didn't say anything was right or wrong. I said it was cheating, which is doing something unfairly which gains you an advantage, and if you're happy doing it when it is allowed then you have every right to do so. Even if it is allowed, it is still unfair to people without the means to do it and it still gains you an advantage over those people. It's cheating by complete definition, even if you won't be punished for it.
Love when I shred someone's logic and they totally ignore it to continue their monologue. But I remain undaunted. You talk about things being unfair to those without the means to do the same. Here's my list of things I view as unfair since I can't do them.
By your logic as I am unable to play 12 to 14 hours a day those who do so are "cheating."
Or how about those who have kick arse PCs and macro enabled keyboards and mice, while I don't, cheating?
Third party overlays and UIs, cheating?
Of course not, all permitted by the devs in most cases.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I am really surprised to see so many people on this site defending, even championing, multiboxing. I mean, if someone says they duped an item or something everyone goes crazy around here. If someone is botting, you all go crazy.
Multiboxing is OK, though?
It a ridiculous concept and whether or not a game allows it, it's a form of cheating.
I mean, I just ignore it when I see it.. it doesn't bother me. But I do think to myself, every time, that it's pathetic that something like that is allowed when devs are constantly struggling and putting major effort into balance and things like that.
What is the point in nerfing a single Hunter's OP skill when someone is legitimately allowed to play 5 Hunters at the same time? Stupid.
If a game company allows multi-boxing from their point of view it isn't cheating, and their point of view is the defining one, not yours.
In the case where multi-boxing isn't allowed then the company defines it as cheating, with your agreement simply a matter of coincidence.
Duping and botting are different matters, where the game is being used in ways not intended which often negatively impacts on legitimate players, so will obviously be generally viewed poorly. Permitted multi-boxing is using the game as intended, so won't be viewed as poorly.
Cheating is cheating. Games that allow multiboxing are basically saying cheating is allowed here.. but it's still cheating. A dog is a dog.. the owner can say it's a cat, but that doesn't make it a cat. If it was built into the game engine with user interfaces and stuff to facilitate it so that every player can make use of it as a feature, then I'll agree it's part of the game. If not, doesn't matter what you say or what they say.. it's cheating.
When you operate your own game you can define what constitutes cheating on it. Until then your opinion doesn't get to substitute for the declaration of the game provider.
This is not a case where the tail gets to wag the dog.
Cheaters pretending they aren't cheating because they say it isn't cheating, that's all this is.
Cheating is defined by the rules of the game, which are written by the developer/publisher.
Not by what you think should be cheating.
I'm not saying that it doesn't suck sometimes, but that's how it is.
Yes, developers that like to have cheating in their games so they say it isn't cheating.
Honestly, guys, you ain't going to change my mind.
I invite you to revisit the meaning of "rules" in games. You are here insulting people who play by the rules of the games they participate in, while you pretend force your own rule of "what is right or wrong" in games you didn't design nor publish.
Guess who is wrong here...
Dang, I hate zealots.
There's two ways you can look at it.. either a game allows something, so it isn't cheating.. or a game allows cheating.
I didn't say anything was right or wrong. I said it was cheating, which is doing something unfairly which gains you an advantage, and if you're happy doing it when it is allowed then you have every right to do so. Even if it is allowed, it is still unfair to people without the means to do it and it still gains you an advantage over those people. It's cheating by complete definition, even if you won't be punished for it.
Love when I shred someone's logic and they totally ignore it to continue their monologue. But I remain undaunted. You talk about things being unfair to those without the means to do the same. Here's my list of things I view as unfair since I can't do them.
By your logic as I am unable to play 12 to 14 hours a day those who do so are "cheating."
Or how about those who have kick arse PCs and macro enabled keyboards and mice, while I don't, cheating?
Third party overlays and UIs, cheating?
Of course not, all permitted by the devs in most cases.
Heck, what is next, Discord is cheating right?
I didn't ignore it, I just saw no value in it. You shredded nothing my friend. I do enjoy how some people want to make things a fight instead of a discussion.
Time available can be attributed to the fairness of anything in life. Pulling at straws and an extreme example. Not relevant.
Kick arse PCs.. shouldn't matter as long as the game's published minimum requirements are optimal for gameplay, even at the lowest settings. Not relevant.
Macros.. this is relevant. If someone is using them to automate strings of commands that can't be done as efficiently without using them then, yes, this is cheating. Of course it is. It's a form of botting and presents a major advantage, especially in PvP situations. If holding down or continuously pressing the same button automates a task for you, such as a combat rotation, so you can focus on other things, it's cheating. Now, in Rift, the 'built in' macro system allows it (like WoW used to) and is readily available to everyone so using that 'feature' isn't cheating. BDO has built in AFK macro systems (and the game is sadly balanced around using them) so that isn't cheating, it's a feature. You provided another example of cheating that is sometimes allowed (more like ignored) in games, well done.
Addons are readily available to everyone and require no extra cost. Addon/Custom UI support is an in-game feature. Addons that automate anything combat related aren't permitted in any games I know of, so that's obviously cheating. Addons/UIs/Overlays generally remove redundancy and provide convenience, they don't affect your ability to complete content on your own or compete. Fair usage. Not relevant.
I'm assuming the Discord comment is just tongue in cheek.
You didn't prove anything with those points.
Post edited by TheDarkrayne on
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
But I prefer interdependency as it makes it more social
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
20 years later you guys wanna claim this "now screws up mmos"? yea, nope.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Other jocularity I didn't mention, miners were bubbling every gate they could trying to get more warning making travel for other activities annoying, site runners couldn't and they took several big losses that I observed. (Poor intel network)
Just my luck, 3 weeks in and an officer looted the corp, took untold billions in assets (none of mine), said he was "bored."
I did however remind CCP once again I was a cash customer leaving, I've always paid sub fees for my accounts, never using PLEX.
Pretty good accounting though.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
Many players did feel buffbots unbalanced the games RVR which I'll agree with, since I dedided to multi box partially for that reason.
It also permitted me to solo PVE which was great for alt leveling or helping fellow guildmates level up the more challenging classes such as stealthers or healers.
Might even still be true in the current servers as it was pretty popular.
On the Uthgard free shard multi boxing is a bannable offense which even a year and a half post launch (and a mostly dead server) they still vigorously enforce.
One reason I quit the free shard was the restriction on multi accounts proved onerous once the population surge abated and it became very challenging to get a decent group together.
After getting my first character to 50 pretty easily by grouping, I managed to solo a chanter and druid to the early to mid 40s but gave up when groups vanished and I wasn't willing to risk multiboxing which several of my friends had started resorting to.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I can remember seeing it in the late 80's with the first MMO's. The cost per minute made it a rich mans game... and many who wanted to play, but could not afford it were able to because others paid for their online time.
Later, in the 90's, when more bandwidth was available, there was an increase in multi boxing, as one person could have multiple computers at one location. As technology improved, it eventually became feasible to have multiple instances on a single computer.
Monthly subs have always promoted P2W via group play... and eventually dumbing down gameplay so that it could be done with less human interaction. This simplification of gameplay, balanced by the need for multiple active accounts is how the monthly account was able to milk the whales.
The trend swung back too more human interaction, by offering free accounts, and encouraging the whales to buy items for these accounts (rather than monthly subs). This fueled the explosion of the F2P MMORPG's, but also started to replace human players with more automation. Much of this was multi-boxing (usually on the same machine) but game also stated adding more automaton into the game itself.
If you look at how games have changed in cycles over the years, you can see how much of this was done to chase the money from the big spenders.
1 is a pirate
3 fall under the industry line (and no not mining)
But these 4 accounts are probably the average number of accounts i have had in my 10 years of eve, sometimes this number has been as high as 15 accounts all active, and all individually controlled, no scripts / no bots all seperate commands. In fact weirdly enough i had lost 1 of my passwords so needed CCP to reset it, but having forgotton the exact email i used at time, they asked me to confirm which one of the 58 accounts it was i was trying to reset, that was 3 years ago.
But, onto the OP post, i see people saying its p2w, i dont see how given that in PvE the loot table is the same for the 10 (example number) players who all run 1 acounts as it would be for 1 player running 10 accounts.
the only difference is the person behind the keybaord is going to guarantee the drop butr which item / class well that cant be decided until loot drops. Also, it would be no time at all until they have exhausted the loot table and then having the 10 accounts is pointless other than having 10 geared playes for PvE.
Now, PvP if they are controlled via a single input then it would be VERY simple to counter because the moment 1 toon is killed then the inputs become invalid and would be VERY hard work to get them back so all are in same area / doing same thing.
Fact for me is simple, if the EULA allows multi-boxing then its fine, if they pay their subs its fine, its only when htey doing it via scripts/bots that i have hte issue, an i have no issue immediatly reporting, and have done on many 100s of occasions.
This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game
where of course you're welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy
EVE'S design clearly promotes having multiple accounts and generally makes it worth every player's while to have 2 or 3.
Interestingly enough though, their banning of ISBoxer and the off grid boosting changes cost them regular subs, but they must have decided the benefits outweighed the financial losses.
DAOC also supported multiple accounts with buff bots, and my guess really only removed it after the time had long since past when anyone was doing much (or even playing) for that matter.
I had multiple accounts in some of the post WOW (aka clone) era MMOs such as LOTRO, WOW, WAR, AOC, Rift and Aion, mostly for family members who often lost interest quickly.
I found multiple accounts in this batch of games not very useful as either they penalized grouped characters too much, or the classes didn't really require a dependency on others to survive, we had reached the era of solo viability.
By the modern era of TSW, TERA, SWTOR, ESO, and AA, I felt no need to play multiple accounts. A win I guess of sorts, except Devs no longer got much in revenue from me as I never really fell much for the whole cash shop model.
If they had only offered me an automatic "I Win" button to kill in game asshats, I'd have paid small fortunes for something like that.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
By your logicz as I am unable to play 12 to 14 hours a day those who do so are "cheating."
Or how about those who have kick arse PCs and macro enabled keyboards and mice, while I don't, cheating?
Third party overlays and UIs, cheating?
Of course not, all permitted by the devs in most cases.
Heck, what is next, Discord is cheating because Devs didn't build it into the game?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
Honestly, guys, you ain't going to change my mind.
I didn't say anything was right or wrong. I said it was cheating, which is doing something unfairly which gains you an advantage, and if you're happy doing it when it is allowed then you have every right to do so. Even if it is allowed, it is still unfair to people without the means to do it and it still gains you an advantage over those people. It's cheating by complete definition, even if you won't be punished for it.
Either way, do what you must to have fun. I, personally, won't do something like it even if it is technically allowed. I just see it as a cheap kind of gameplay, it's no fun and doesn't allow you to gain any real achievement. I'm not trying to tell anyone you can't or shouldn't do it if a game allows it. But, if a game was rampant with it I certainly wouldn't play that game because of it. I almost quit LOTRO a few times when I saw small armies roaming around. Thankfully, I've never seen it outside of the starting areas. I guess they just do it to farm LOTRO points in the starter zones or something.
By your logic as I am unable to play 12 to 14 hours a day those who do so are "cheating."
Or how about those who have kick arse PCs and macro enabled keyboards and mice, while I don't, cheating?
Third party overlays and UIs, cheating?
Of course not, all permitted by the devs in most cases.
Heck, what is next, Discord is cheating right?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Time available can be attributed to the fairness of anything in life. Pulling at straws and an extreme example. Not relevant.
Kick arse PCs.. shouldn't matter as long as the game's published minimum requirements are optimal for gameplay, even at the lowest settings. Not relevant.
Macros.. this is relevant. If someone is using them to automate strings of commands that can't be done as efficiently without using them then, yes, this is cheating. Of course it is. It's a form of botting and presents a major advantage, especially in PvP situations. If holding down or continuously pressing the same button automates a task for you, such as a combat rotation, so you can focus on other things, it's cheating. Now, in Rift, the 'built in' macro system allows it (like WoW used to) and is readily available to everyone so using that 'feature' isn't cheating. BDO has built in AFK macro systems (and the game is sadly balanced around using them) so that isn't cheating, it's a feature. You provided another example of cheating that is sometimes allowed (more like ignored) in games, well done.
Addons are readily available to everyone and require no extra cost. Addon/Custom UI support is an in-game feature. Addons that automate anything combat related aren't permitted in any games I know of, so that's obviously cheating. Addons/UIs/Overlays generally remove redundancy and provide convenience, they don't affect your ability to complete content on your own or compete. Fair usage. Not relevant.
I'm assuming the Discord comment is just tongue in cheek.
You didn't prove anything with those points.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
Just as buying skill extractors and injectors or ISK trading in EVE isn't cheating.....CCP permits it.
Are you sure you understand the definition of cheating?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon