For a forum that overall that sure complains about new MMOs being to solo friendly, not enough social/group content and complains of Destiny not being an MMO and how old MMOs were better...they sure love to support those who make group content into a solo experience
If people want to play with themselves and are willing to pay for five different accounts, then more power to them. They still have to level and gear said characters, the same as everyone else. There are varying degrees regarding this, such as Multi-boxing and just having multiple accounts that you level separately. One is more open to criticism and arguments than the other since a third party tool is sometimes used, though the argument is and has been that human input is still required for your alternate characters. Indeed, setting it all up efficiently and so that they're able to survive in current content is not as easy as it seems if the game isn't itself a complete push over and it likely impossible with the hardest difficulties with the same reasonings.
Though this may be regarded differently when talking about PvE and PvP.
It also depends on the type of game and how they are set up. Some are so much of a hassle to try and play different accounts that I just nod to someone that did it and say to myself, "you deserve whatever benefits you get for that". It's a far cry from simply going on a cash shop and buying the best gear for everything as in those situations, it probably took close to six months or more to work on just the basics for those accounts depending on the game in question. Which is more of a "why would you bother paying six months of sub for minimal benefits" type of thing. But it's their money and they worked for what they wanted both in the real world and in the virtual in that.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
If mmos allowed botting, most of the posters in thread would be using bots and saying it isn't cheating because the MMO allows it
Well....yes, because the developers who created the game are allowing it.
Just as buying skill extractors and injectors or ISK trading in EVE isn't cheating.....CCP permits it.
Are you sure you understand the definition of cheating?
Hold on, hold on..
So, when games used to be intentionally coded with cheat codes, back in the day, and you used one of those cheat codes.. were you cheating?
I'm not sure you understand the definition of cheating. Microtransactions 'are' cheating. That's what the whole P2W thing is all about and that's why it's a problem.
I guess cheating is so commonplace now that you think it stopped being cheating based on popularity.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
If mmos allowed botting, most of the posters in thread would be using bots and saying it isn't cheating because the MMO allows it
Well....yes, because the developers who created the game are allowing it.
Just as buying skill extractors and injectors or ISK trading in EVE isn't cheating.....CCP permits it.
Are you sure you understand the definition of cheating?
Hold on, hold on..
So, when games used to be intentionally coded with cheat codes, back in the day, and you used one of those cheat codes.. were you cheating?
I'm not sure you understand the definition of cheating. Microtransactions 'are' cheating. That's what the whole P2W thing is all about and that's why it's a problem.
I guess cheating is so commonplace now that you think it stopped being cheating based on popularity.
Not sure I ever used used cheat codes more than once or twice, totally ruined the "single" player games they were in, but no one really cares if someone ruins their experience in such titles.
Though some games like Fallout 3 NV actually flag you as a cheater if you change the difficulty level or use command line codes to modify the game, perhaps because progress and scores are tracked on Steam or GOG, not sure since I didn't cheat.
Microtransactions and P2W can be bad for gaming, or impact other people's experience, but again it isn't cheating if the developers offer it in game to everyone.
Purchasing gold or items outside of legally authorized channels is cheating, so in the case of EVE its illegal to trade accounts, characters, ships, wormholes, or ISK outside of the in game systems CCP provides.
Allowing others to purchase unfair advantage has pretty much become the norm, but as someone in MMORPGs has always had an unfair advantage over me if they could play more than me, or had a better guild, or understood the game better, or was better at socializing, etc etc I grew to understand it didnt really matter how advantage was gained, just whether I felt any compulsion to participate.
In EVE I never have, while other games such as ROM it felt like the cash shop was a requirement.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I had multiple accounts in some of the post WOW (aka clone) era MMOs such as LOTRO, [...] I found multiple accounts in this batch of games not very useful [...]
Testing your own songs (harmony, tempo, the different instruments) with your alt accounts instead of organising your kinmates for a practice session, and thus to them you can present just the perfected final version at the end IS pretty useful
Sure, not on the "I Win" button magnitude, neither on the usefulness of your own fleet of capsuleers in Eve... but it can be convenient, and also fun.
My take on the thread question is a nope. Of course I'm biased because, like Kyleran, I too have alt accounts in every game I used to play. Having multiple accounts is not "ruining MMOs", it does jackshit to them. On the contrary, some games like Eve even encourages and supports alt accounts. I don't play Eve, but as I have heard every player there has several accounts...
Multiboxing those accounts at the same time could be a different topic, but to be honest I don't remember any older games having a rule against multiboxing. That doesn't "ruin MMOs" either, but extreme over-using could be potentially harmful, so that issue is a more valid debate.
In LotRO for example, it is allowed to multibox for the fun part (like the aforementioned practice of a band piece, or assembling matching outfits for an event, etc.), and probably for mild advancement as well (I don't think anyone was ever punished by pulling an alt through a few levels or crafting tiers). However, for obvious reasons, they can be much more rigid when someone uses multiboxing for farming out hundreds of LotRO Points at once, since that's the shop currency and it directly affects their wallet...
If mmos allowed botting, most of the posters in thread would be using bots and saying it isn't cheating because the MMO allows it
Well....yes, because the developers who created the game are allowing it.
Just as buying skill extractors and injectors or ISK trading in EVE isn't cheating.....CCP permits it.
Are you sure you understand the definition of cheating?
Hold on, hold on..
So, when games used to be intentionally coded with cheat codes, back in the day, and you used one of those cheat codes.. were you cheating?
I'm not sure you understand the definition of cheating. Microtransactions 'are' cheating. That's what the whole P2W thing is all about and that's why it's a problem.
I guess cheating is so commonplace now that you think it stopped being cheating based on popularity.
Not sure I ever used used cheat codes more than once or twice, totally ruined the "single" player games they were in, but no one really cares if someone ruins their experience in such titles.
Though some games like Fallout 3 NV actually flag you as a cheater if you change the difficulty level or use command line codes to modify the game, perhaps because progress and scores are tracked on Steam or GOG, not sure since I didn't cheat.
Microtransactions and P2W can be bad for gaming, or impact other people's experience, but again it isn't cheating if the developers offer it in game to everyone.
Purchasing gold or items outside of legally authorized channels is cheating, so in the case of EVE its illegal to trade accounts, characters, ships, wormholes, or ISK outside of the in game systems CCP provides.
Allowing others to purchase unfair advantage has pretty much become the norm, but as someone in MMORPGs has always had an unfair advantage over me if they could play more than me, or had a better guild, or understood the game better, or was better at socializing, etc etc I grew to understand it didnt really matter how advantage was gained, just whether I felt any compulsion to participate.
In EVE I never have, while other games such as ROM it felt like the cash shop was a requirement.
Nope, not buying it. If you can't understand that paying for an unfair advantage is exactly the same thing as paying for cheats then there's nothing more to say. I've proven my point and now you're just trying to say.. yes, but in this situation it's not the same because it doesn't serve my purpose.
I guess I'll just load up Skyrim.. use console commands to get max level at the start and fill my inventory with money.
After, I'll load up WOW.. buy a max level boost and buy a load of tokens to fill my inventory with money.
I've done the same thing in both games. I'll be comfortable with myself because I know I didn't cheat in either case according to your reasoning, the devs gave me the ability to do these things so it can't be cheating.
Post edited by TheDarkrayne on
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Nope, not buying it. If you can't understand that paying for an unfair advantage is exactly the same thing as paying for cheats then there's nothing more to say.
But what advantage do you gain by controlling multiple characters? When it comes to gameplay it's actually a disadvantage as controlling multiple characters is tougher than commanding just one.
The content doesn't become easier.
If you could explain what the advantage is in controlling more than one character I'd probably better understand your view point.
The only advantages I can see is you don't have to wait for other players or deal with bad players.
I also don't care for the unfair aspect of it as many have pointed out someone using a 20+ buttoned mouse has an unfair advantage. Yeah, I could buy the same mouse just as a player can buy more than one account.
Nope, not buying it. If you can't understand that paying for an unfair advantage is exactly the same thing as paying for cheats then there's nothing more to say.
But what advantage do you gain by controlling multiple characters? When it comes to gameplay it's actually a disadvantage as controlling multiple characters is tougher than commanding just one.
The content doesn't become easier.
If you could explain what the advantage is in controlling more than one character I'd probably better understand your view point.
The only advantages I can see is you don't have to wait for other players or deal with bad players.
I also don't care for the unfair aspect of it as many have pointed out someone using a 20+ buttoned mouse has an unfair advantage. Yeah, I could buy the same mouse just as a player can buy more than one account.
Well, in EVE, you can have an entire fleet defending you at all times. In a PvP game with permanent losses.. it's obvious why that is an unfair advantage. Combat is also pretty slow and mostly automated.. so.. in EVE, it's especially bad because it's a lot easier to control.
Let's give WoW as another example..
In current expansion dungeons, you basically get a loot roll for your class (or selected specialisation). If you are controlling the whole party, you are getting 5 times the loot.. and.. if you wanted to, you could give all that loot to one character within 2 hours. You could run 5 paladins; 1 as a healer, 1 as a tank and 3 as DPS. You want healer gear so you choose that Loot Specialisation on all the characters.
You can now farm loot for your healer 5 times faster than anyone else.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Nope, not buying it. If you can't understand that paying for an unfair advantage is exactly the same thing as paying for cheats then there's nothing more to say.
But what advantage do you gain by controlling multiple characters? When it comes to gameplay it's actually a disadvantage as controlling multiple characters is tougher than commanding just one.
The content doesn't become easier.
If you could explain what the advantage is in controlling more than one character I'd probably better understand your view point.
The only advantages I can see is you don't have to wait for other players or deal with bad players.
I also don't care for the unfair aspect of it as many have pointed out someone using a 20+ buttoned mouse has an unfair advantage. Yeah, I could buy the same mouse just as a player can buy more than one account.
Well, in EVE, you can have an entire fleet defending you at all times. In a PvP game with permanent losses.. it's obvious why that is an unfair advantage. Combat is also pretty slow and mostly automated.. so.. in EVE, it's especially bad because it's a lot easier to control.
Let's give WoW as another example..
In current expansion dungeons, you basically get a loot roll for your class (or selected specialisation). If you are controlling the whole party, you are getting 5 times the loot.. and.. if you wanted to, you could give all that loot to one character within 2 hours. You could run 5 paladins; 1 as a healer, 1 as a tank and 3 as DPS. You want healer gear so you choose that Loot Specialisation on all the characters.
You can now farm loot for your healer 5 times faster than anyone else.
I want to see you farm Mythic dungeons with 5 characters you are controlling. Please send us a video so we can all have a good laugh.
Normal dungeons are irrelevant, and even then, in some you will have a hard time with some bosses where a group would just faceroll it.
So no, you can't farm loot 5 times faster than anyone else. You will be quickly stopped by difficulty. Because like it or not, controlling several characters, even with some automation (which in my book should be forbidden), is not even remotely as efficient as having 5 different human brains controlling them.
Seems to me that you have some idealized vision of multiboxing where the single player is worth 5, 10, 25 or more players all alone. Sorry to rain on your parade, but it doesn't work that way.
It was just an example of the kind of thing that is possible and the kind of reasons for it to be considered gaining an advantage. There's loads more examples of ways in which it could be used and, I bet, you probably already know that.
How about.. personal nodes in GW2 and now Wow? Probably other games too. You can run around with as many characters as you want and farm all the materials multiple times.. at the same time. /Follow your main character.. good to go. Just got to click on the node for each one. (not sure if GW2 has a follow option, WoW does)
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
Nope, not buying it. If you can't understand that paying for an unfair advantage is exactly the same thing as paying for cheats then there's nothing more to say.
But what advantage do you gain by controlling multiple characters? When it comes to gameplay it's actually a disadvantage as controlling multiple characters is tougher than commanding just one.
The content doesn't become easier.
If you could explain what the advantage is in controlling more than one character I'd probably better understand your view point.
The only advantages I can see is you don't have to wait for other players or deal with bad players.
I also don't care for the unfair aspect of it as many have pointed out someone using a 20+ buttoned mouse has an unfair advantage. Yeah, I could buy the same mouse just as a player can buy more than one account.
Well, in EVE, you can have an entire fleet defending you at all times. In a PvP game with permanent losses.. it's obvious why that is an unfair advantage. Combat is also pretty slow and mostly automated.. so.. in EVE, it's especially bad because it's a lot easier to control.
Let's give WoW as another example..
In current expansion dungeons, you basically get a loot roll for your class (or selected specialisation). If you are controlling the whole party, you are getting 5 times the loot.. and.. if you wanted to, you could give all that loot to one character within 2 hours. You could run 5 paladins; 1 as a healer, 1 as a tank and 3 as DPS. You want healer gear so you choose that Loot Specialisation on all the characters.
You can now farm loot for your healer 5 times faster than anyone else.
Perhaps if you were macro key botting things would go as you describe in your WOW or EVE PVP, but I've yet to see anyone successfully control 5 or 6 characters in an active situation.
Never saw it as a raider in WOW, though I do recall this one guy named Rock on MLF who could control a party of 5 or so different characters if he had to, including healing, crowd control, tanking and debuffing.
Claimed he did it in a command center with 6 computers, but didn't bot.
Rock never took his parties into PVP, for that he only played his solo Infiltrator, (with buff bot of course) and was one of the top ones on the server. If Rock was leveling his pack at some camp of significance he always welcomed folks to join which he would fill in any missing slots.
Back to your WOW example, who cares if someone can solo farm trash loot faster? I very much doubt many can solo top raid content, if with macro bots, too unpredictable, unless that's changed.
Top raiding guilds can farm top gear faster, so what?
I think you are suffering from a terrible case of envy, as you have not raised any good reasons in these conversations.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Try to use /follow with a flying mount in WoW, and again, please post a video so we can all have a good laugh
And don't come telling me you can farm without flying mounts nowadays...
And even without flying mounts, nodes are often near mountains and your followers will get stuck in the vegetation and other landscape features.
You definitely have an idealized vision of multi boxing that would give you some kind of tremendous advantage and make you a god.
You are simply wrong.
PS: I'm not even arguing for me, I never did more than dual boxing to assist my low level alts and enchant my own stuff before enchanting vellum got introduced. Never used any kind of automation to do it either, just in game tools and good old alt-tab between two clients. I'm arguing because you insult people, calling then cheaters when they are not. Cheating is breaking the game rules. Buying illegal gold from third party farmers is cheating. Logging two or more accounts at the same time is not.
All you're doing is dismissing everything as being hard to control. For one, you need to stop focusing on the exact example I'm giving. There's more games where you can do these things, not just WoW. How about what I said about EVE? These apply to a broad range of games, not just WoW. Two, you can 100% farm nodes on WoW without flying.. the zones were all designed for when you couldn't even fly until later in the expansion.
BTW, I am playing WoW right now as a matter of fact.. and I just tested following whilst flying. Totally works fine so I guess I get to have a good laugh at you instead? That kind of talk is petty and more insulting than anything I'm doing, btw. I'm not set up for recording, it's not something I've ever done.. but please try it yourself if you're in doubt. When I say it works fine, I mean it works perfectly.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
If mmos allowed botting, most of the posters in thread would be using bots and saying it isn't cheating because the MMO allows it
Well....yes, because the developers who created the game are allowing it.
Just as buying skill extractors and injectors or ISK trading in EVE isn't cheating.....CCP permits it.
Are you sure you understand the definition of cheating?
Hold on, hold on..
So, when games used to be intentionally coded with cheat codes, back in the day, and you used one of those cheat codes.. were you cheating?
I'm not sure you understand the definition of cheating. Microtransactions 'are' cheating. That's what the whole P2W thing is all about and that's why it's a problem.
I guess cheating is so commonplace now that you think it stopped being cheating based on popularity.
Not sure I ever used used cheat codes more than once or twice, totally ruined the "single" player games they were in, but no one really cares if someone ruins their experience in such titles.
Though some games like Fallout 3 NV actually flag you as a cheater if you change the difficulty level or use command line codes to modify the game, perhaps because progress and scores are tracked on Steam or GOG, not sure since I didn't cheat.
Microtransactions and P2W can be bad for gaming, or impact other people's experience, but again it isn't cheating if the developers offer it in game to everyone.
Purchasing gold or items outside of legally authorized channels is cheating, so in the case of EVE its illegal to trade accounts, characters, ships, wormholes, or ISK outside of the in game systems CCP provides.
Allowing others to purchase unfair advantage has pretty much become the norm, but as someone in MMORPGs has always had an unfair advantage over me if they could play more than me, or had a better guild, or understood the game better, or was better at socializing, etc etc I grew to understand it didnt really matter how advantage was gained, just whether I felt any compulsion to participate.
In EVE I never have, while other games such as ROM it felt like the cash shop was a requirement.
Nope, not buying it. If you can't understand that paying for an unfair advantage is exactly the same thing as paying for cheats then there's nothing more to say. I've proven my point and now you're just trying to say.. yes, but in this situation it's not the same because it doesn't serve my purpose.
I guess I'll just load up Skyrim.. use console commands to get max level at the start and fill my inventory with money.
After, I'll load up WOW.. buy a max level boost and buy a load of tokens to fill my inventory with money.
I've done the same thing in both games. I'll be comfortable with myself because I know I didn't cheat in either case according to your reasoning, the devs gave me the ability to do these things so it can't be cheating.
If the developer sells you the advantages or builds in a command console for players to use, they aren't cheating.
In my example it was either Steam or GOG who were trying to track player accomplishment across a level playing field so they chose to establish rules prohibiting certain activities.
Trying to break those rules and evade detection would be cheating, but in the core game its not.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If mmos allowed botting, most of the posters in thread would be using bots and saying it isn't cheating because the MMO allows it
Well....yes, because the developers who created the game are allowing it.
Just as buying skill extractors and injectors or ISK trading in EVE isn't cheating.....CCP permits it.
Are you sure you understand the definition of cheating?
Hold on, hold on..
So, when games used to be intentionally coded with cheat codes, back in the day, and you used one of those cheat codes.. were you cheating?
I'm not sure you understand the definition of cheating. Microtransactions 'are' cheating. That's what the whole P2W thing is all about and that's why it's a problem.
I guess cheating is so commonplace now that you think it stopped being cheating based on popularity.
Not sure I ever used used cheat codes more than once or twice, totally ruined the "single" player games they were in, but no one really cares if someone ruins their experience in such titles.
Though some games like Fallout 3 NV actually flag you as a cheater if you change the difficulty level or use command line codes to modify the game, perhaps because progress and scores are tracked on Steam or GOG, not sure since I didn't cheat.
Microtransactions and P2W can be bad for gaming, or impact other people's experience, but again it isn't cheating if the developers offer it in game to everyone.
Purchasing gold or items outside of legally authorized channels is cheating, so in the case of EVE its illegal to trade accounts, characters, ships, wormholes, or ISK outside of the in game systems CCP provides.
Allowing others to purchase unfair advantage has pretty much become the norm, but as someone in MMORPGs has always had an unfair advantage over me if they could play more than me, or had a better guild, or understood the game better, or was better at socializing, etc etc I grew to understand it didnt really matter how advantage was gained, just whether I felt any compulsion to participate.
In EVE I never have, while other games such as ROM it felt like the cash shop was a requirement.
Nope, not buying it. If you can't understand that paying for an unfair advantage is exactly the same thing as paying for cheats then there's nothing more to say. I've proven my point and now you're just trying to say.. yes, but in this situation it's not the same because it doesn't serve my purpose.
I guess I'll just load up Skyrim.. use console commands to get max level at the start and fill my inventory with money.
After, I'll load up WOW.. buy a max level boost and buy a load of tokens to fill my inventory with money.
I've done the same thing in both games. I'll be comfortable with myself because I know I didn't cheat in either case according to your reasoning, the devs gave me the ability to do these things so it can't be cheating.
If the developer sells you the advantages or builds in a command console for players to use, they aren't cheating.
In my example it was either Steam or GOG who were trying to track player accomplishment across a level playing field so they chose to establish rules prohibiting certain activities.
Trying to break those rules and evade detection would be cheating, but in the core game its not.
Reasoning, not a strong suit I see.
Look, I am very bored of this because we are going round in circles.
If you think saying different words when describing something changes what it is.. then that's how you work. If that's how you convince yourself it's something different from cheating even though the reasons for doing it and result of doing it are exactly the same in both situations, that's up to you.
I get that you're never going to say it is cheating because it's something you like to be able to do... so, why bother continuing?
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
I was thinking today after seeing a multi-accounter in WoW with 8 characters following him and it was very easy to tell it was the same person controlling all 8 characters...
But MMOs are about grouping, the social atmosphere and teaming up with others. Because if not, then its no different than playing a singleplayer RPG if all you are doing is doing all the group content by yourself.
One problem of multi-accounters comes from forced group MMOs (Pantheon will be a big issue if they don't deal with it)...but a previous MMO where this was a problem was Vanguard Saga of Heroes. Vast majority of content was grouping only...but then here comes a multi-accounter to solo it with all his characters.
How in any point is that fair for someone who can't afford all those accounts+PC(s) to set it all up? A game that forces grouping, but someone with money can just come along and solo it...which also completely nullifies the forced grouping part of the game.
Or end game in WoW. I've seen a multi accounter youtube video with over 20 accounts...soloing endgame content...by himself...
Not only does that make the forced grouping part of the game nullified, but that also ruins the social atmosphere. Why group at all when you can have potentially dozens of accounts to pretty much solo for you? Isn't the point however, of MMOs, to group? And why many MMOs have forced grouping content?
MMO developers either need to make content for everyone, even endgame content, making multi-accounting pointless so its fair for everyone...or really start cracking down on people who bypass forced group content with all their accounts they control by themselves, so its fair for everyone.
You ever see those old ladies playing Bingo with 50-60 cards. I always wonder how the fuck they do it. I had problems trying to keep up with half a dozen cards
Somebody raiding by themselves multiboxing? Unless they're botting I'd wonder how the fuck they could do it. Controlling one toon in a raid is the limit of my skill, if someone is skilled enough to control a whole group or raid, I say power to them.
If mmos allowed botting, most of the posters in thread would be using bots and saying it isn't cheating because the MMO allows it
Well....yes, because the developers who created the game are allowing it.
Just as buying skill extractors and injectors or ISK trading in EVE isn't cheating.....CCP permits it.
Are you sure you understand the definition of cheating?
Hold on, hold on..
So, when games used to be intentionally coded with cheat codes, back in the day, and you used one of those cheat codes.. were you cheating?
I'm not sure you understand the definition of cheating. Microtransactions 'are' cheating. That's what the whole P2W thing is all about and that's why it's a problem.
I guess cheating is so commonplace now that you think it stopped being cheating based on popularity.
Not sure I ever used used cheat codes more than once or twice, totally ruined the "single" player games they were in, but no one really cares if someone ruins their experience in such titles.
Though some games like Fallout 3 NV actually flag you as a cheater if you change the difficulty level or use command line codes to modify the game, perhaps because progress and scores are tracked on Steam or GOG, not sure since I didn't cheat.
Microtransactions and P2W can be bad for gaming, or impact other people's experience, but again it isn't cheating if the developers offer it in game to everyone.
Purchasing gold or items outside of legally authorized channels is cheating, so in the case of EVE its illegal to trade accounts, characters, ships, wormholes, or ISK outside of the in game systems CCP provides.
Allowing others to purchase unfair advantage has pretty much become the norm, but as someone in MMORPGs has always had an unfair advantage over me if they could play more than me, or had a better guild, or understood the game better, or was better at socializing, etc etc I grew to understand it didnt really matter how advantage was gained, just whether I felt any compulsion to participate.
In EVE I never have, while other games such as ROM it felt like the cash shop was a requirement.
Nope, not buying it. If you can't understand that paying for an unfair advantage is exactly the same thing as paying for cheats then there's nothing more to say. I've proven my point and now you're just trying to say.. yes, but in this situation it's not the same because it doesn't serve my purpose.
I guess I'll just load up Skyrim.. use console commands to get max level at the start and fill my inventory with money.
After, I'll load up WOW.. buy a max level boost and buy a load of tokens to fill my inventory with money.
I've done the same thing in both games. I'll be comfortable with myself because I know I didn't cheat in either case according to your reasoning, the devs gave me the ability to do these things so it can't be cheating.
If the developer sells you the advantages or builds in a command console for players to use, they aren't cheating.
In my example it was either Steam or GOG who were trying to track player accomplishment across a level playing field so they chose to establish rules prohibiting certain activities.
Trying to break those rules and evade detection would be cheating, but in the core game its not.
Reasoning, not a strong suit I see.
actually, if the developers build in cheats...its still cheating
Cheating in video games involves a video game player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier or harder. Cheats may be activated from within the game itself (a cheat code implemented by the original game developers)
=======================
Nowhere does it say developers define what cheating is. In fact, it even says a cheat code can be implemented by the developers...but its still a cheat
In fact both definitions, is about gaining an advantage over someone else. But cheats don't always make the game easier as stated by Wikipedia. They can also make the game harder. But nowhere in either of those does it say the developers decide what a cheat is or is not...but in fact that developers can put in cheats if they want...but its still cheats.
And the common definition of cheats is gaining an advantage.
And this comes from a bot site, so obviously not linking it, but even they say multi-account is a type of cheat
Multiboxing in MMOs & MMORPGs In Short: Multiboxing is the use of software in order to run multiple characters at once, often in one group and duplicating the movements of one “main character” to multiple “slave characters”. This practice results in a group of characters that are highly effective at farming, leveling and even PvP, which are all controlled by one single player. This kind of “cheat” is not explicitly forbidden in most MMORPGs, but highly frowned upon by most game communities.
Nowhere anywhere does it say developers decide what cheating is or is not. But in fact that developers can allow cheats or build the cheats into the game...but its still considered cheats.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
The players who use multiboxing, bots, play 24/7, pay for advantages - cheat first themselves. It is a game, you have to play for fun and entertainment.
The trick is, that the safe solo PvE, even in EVE it is solo, but not so safe, push the players into that grind competition.
The winner is who grinds more, and he wins nothing. The price is his money and time.
The problem - such players become overpowered because of factors outside of the game, and that makes the other players to leave and to cry about the unfair gameplay - the unfair thing is not in the game, but the safe and solo grind allows it. The solution - challenging gameplay.
Of course the publishers will allow everything that brings them more money in short time. In longer terms - it does not matter, they will publish another game.
If mmos allowed botting, most of the posters in thread would be using bots and saying it isn't cheating because the MMO allows it
When everyone use it , it is not cheating .
Cheating mean action that broken laws of the "game" , if the law allow it then it not cheating
It can be called harmful action , or bad for the game action in case the game allow it .
Amazing logic. So if everyone kill, steal, beat - it is not a crime. Not to mention, the conclusion - everyone - is false. Most people do not use multiboxing, because of lack of computer power and do not play 24/7 - because of lack of free time.
In EVE we multi boxing "solo" miners (and cargo haulers) are actually part of the intended content for those who gleefully kill us when we slip up and manage to be caught unawares.
The killers already complain we have too many advantages in terms of intel, being able to see them in local, able to call in for support (ha, that is a good one) or what not.
Killers justification is since we PVEer are always getting rich, it is only "fair" they get a chance to take it. I guess, just a cost of doing business, the losses get factored in, always made a solid net profit.
Even when someone is clearly botting 30 mining barges, somehow their doing so doesn't "ruin" EVE for anyone.
As it also puts around 20B worth of ISK on the field (if they being a Rorq) most PVPers are thrilled when they occasionally get lucky and find a player who has made a grave mistake.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If mmos allowed botting, most of the posters in thread would be using bots and saying it isn't cheating because the MMO allows it
Well....yes, because the developers who created the game are allowing it.
Just as buying skill extractors and injectors or ISK trading in EVE isn't cheating.....CCP permits it.
Are you sure you understand the definition of cheating?
Hold on, hold on..
So, when games used to be intentionally coded with cheat codes, back in the day, and you used one of those cheat codes.. were you cheating?
I'm not sure you understand the definition of cheating. Microtransactions 'are' cheating. That's what the whole P2W thing is all about and that's why it's a problem.
I guess cheating is so commonplace now that you think it stopped being cheating based on popularity.
Not sure I ever used used cheat codes more than once or twice, totally ruined the "single" player games they were in, but no one really cares if someone ruins their experience in such titles.
Though some games like Fallout 3 NV actually flag you as a cheater if you change the difficulty level or use command line codes to modify the game, perhaps because progress and scores are tracked on Steam or GOG, not sure since I didn't cheat.
Microtransactions and P2W can be bad for gaming, or impact other people's experience, but again it isn't cheating if the developers offer it in game to everyone.
Purchasing gold or items outside of legally authorized channels is cheating, so in the case of EVE its illegal to trade accounts, characters, ships, wormholes, or ISK outside of the in game systems CCP provides.
Allowing others to purchase unfair advantage has pretty much become the norm, but as someone in MMORPGs has always had an unfair advantage over me if they could play more than me, or had a better guild, or understood the game better, or was better at socializing, etc etc I grew to understand it didnt really matter how advantage was gained, just whether I felt any compulsion to participate.
In EVE I never have, while other games such as ROM it felt like the cash shop was a requirement.
Nope, not buying it. If you can't understand that paying for an unfair advantage is exactly the same thing as paying for cheats then there's nothing more to say. I've proven my point and now you're just trying to say.. yes, but in this situation it's not the same because it doesn't serve my purpose.
I guess I'll just load up Skyrim.. use console commands to get max level at the start and fill my inventory with money.
After, I'll load up WOW.. buy a max level boost and buy a load of tokens to fill my inventory with money.
I've done the same thing in both games. I'll be comfortable with myself because I know I didn't cheat in either case according to your reasoning, the devs gave me the ability to do these things so it can't be cheating.
If the developer sells you the advantages or builds in a command console for players to use, they aren't cheating.
In my example it was either Steam or GOG who were trying to track player accomplishment across a level playing field so they chose to establish rules prohibiting certain activities.
Trying to break those rules and evade detection would be cheating, but in the core game its not.
Reasoning, not a strong suit I see.
Look, I am very bored of this because we are going round in circles.
If you think saying different words when describing something changes what it is.. then that's how you work. If that's how you convince yourself it's something different from cheating even though the reasons for doing it and result of doing it are exactly the same in both situations, that's up to you.
I get that you're never going to say it is cheating because it's something you like to be able to do... so, why bother continuing?
yeah, I'm getting more the feeling they are making excuses to cheat and to pretend its not cheating because it makes them look bad in most gaming communities. But I posted the description of cheating from 3 different sources (2 being linked to) that say what cheating is.
Any argument what cheating is after that is more like trolling since the description of what cheating is is there for everyone (post above). Or severe delusion that it isn't cheating because they like to cheat and don't want to admit that.
But google and wikipedia and that other site that I won't name all say what cheating is.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
Cheating in video games involves a video game player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier or harder. Cheats may be activated from within the game itself (a cheat code implemented by the original game developers)
That's why I did it in older MMO's. To give me some sort of challenge when engaged in PvE combat.
I rarely do it now with shift to action combat, it's just to hard.
Cheating in video games involves a video game player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier or harder. Cheats may be activated from within the game itself (a cheat code implemented by the original game developers)
That's why I did it in older MMO's. To give me some sort of challenge when engaged in PvE combat.
I rarely do it now with shift to action combat, it's just to hard.
I think multiboxing is harder in action MMOs (like GW2, BDO, TERA etc) but a lot easier in MMOs like FFXIV, WoW and what not.
So the fact that MMOs and games in general are going toward action combat, actually would make multiboxing a LOT harder...which that I'm okay with actually.
As for challenge. When I did skyrim, I always used mods or console commands (or both) to make the game harder. Same with Fallout 4. I know some in the gaming community find mods are cheats, and some kinda are...but for Fallout 4 I have a really challenging survival based setup of mods and its super challenging but a lot of fun.
So that is my actual stance on it as far as MMOs go. Is multiboxing more of a challenge when used in action MMOs (the MMOs I listed and similar MMOs)...or does it make it easier like in MMOs like WoW...if its the former...that I am actually okay with. Sure even multiboxing 20 characters or whatever in WoW I imagine has its own challenges, but it just really makes it easier overall. But then compared to controlling 20 characters in GW2 (for example) where it does the opposite and actually makes it harder than playing solo since the game is so fast paced and its near impossible to really control even one single character let alone a whole bunch.
(edit:
I still consider it a form of cheating. But at least in an MMO like GW2 (as an example) its not really getting an advantage over someone else by having 5 characters at same time or whatever number...which in my definitions above is the common theme of cheating is gaining an advantage. Where as, in an MMO like WoW its the opposite and becomes a huge advantage.
And WoW is already easy enough solo...as a solo player I can solo some insane things as blood DK and affliction warlock (even in pre-patch). Even if controlling 5 characters or whatever as its challenges in WoW, its still overall way too easy to begin with and that would just make it easier compared to GW2 and similar MMOs.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
Cheating in video games involves a video game player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier or harder. Cheats may be activated from within the game itself (a cheat code implemented by the original game developers)
That's why I did it in older MMO's. To give me some sort of challenge when engaged in PvE combat.
I rarely do it now with shift to action combat, it's just to hard.
I think multiboxing is harder in action MMOs (like GW2, BDO, TERA etc) but a lot easier in MMOs like FFXIV, WoW and what not.
So the fact that MMOs and games in general are going toward action combat, actually would make multiboxing a LOT harder...which that I'm okay with actually.
As for challenge. When I did skyrim, I always used mods or console commands (or both) to make the game harder. Same with Fallout 4. I know some in the gaming community find mods are cheats, and some kinda are...but for Fallout 4 I have a really challenging survival based setup of mods and its super challenging but a lot of fun.
So that is my actual stance on it as far as MMOs go. Is multiboxing more of a challenge when used in action MMOs (the MMOs I listed and similar MMOs)...or does it make it easier like in MMOs like WoW...if its the former...that I am actually okay with. Sure even multiboxing 20 characters or whatever in WoW I imagine has its own challenges, but it just really makes it easier overall. But then compared to controlling 20 characters in GW2 (for example) where it does the opposite and actually makes it harder than playing solo since the game is so fast paced and its near impossible to really control even one single character let alone a whole bunch.
(edit:
I still consider it a form of cheating. But at least in an MMO like GW2 (as an example) its not really getting an advantage over someone else by having 5 characters at same time or whatever number...which in my definitions above is the common theme of cheating is gaining an advantage. Where as, in an MMO like WoW its the opposite and becomes a huge advantage.
And WoW is already easy enough solo...as a solo player I can solo some insane things as blood DK and affliction warlock (even in pre-patch). Even if controlling 5 characters or whatever as its challenges in WoW, its still overall way too easy to begin with and that would just make it easier compared to GW2 and similar MMOs.
I think those advocating multiboxing do think we're trying to insult them.. Picard seems to think so anyway. I stated earlier that I'm not trying to say it's right or wrong, just that it isn't for me and that it's a cheat. I totally understand the appeal and I get that if everyone is doing it in the game you want to play then you've got to do it as well to stay competitive. Loads of people in a game like EVE are cheating.. and that's how the game works now, that's what it is and if you want to play it seriously then you have to accept that.
Seems cheating is just a buzzword that people don't like to have attached to them. They seem to think cheating always means unlawful or something...
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
I still consider it a form of cheating. But at least in an MMO like GW2 (as an example) its not really getting an advantage over someone else by having 5 characters at same time or whatever number...which in my definitions above is the common theme of cheating is gaining an advantage. Where as, in an MMO like WoW its the opposite and becomes a huge advantage.
This is where I diasgree.
Personally cheating is just not about gaining an advantage. It's gaining it dishonestly or unfairly.
I still consider it a form of cheating. But at least in an MMO like GW2 (as an example) its not really getting an advantage over someone else by having 5 characters at same time or whatever number...which in my definitions above is the common theme of cheating is gaining an advantage. Where as, in an MMO like WoW its the opposite and becomes a huge advantage.
This is where I diasgree.
Personally cheating is just not about gaining an advantage. It's gaining it dishonestly or unfairly.
This first link may help you with your definitions. Everyone here should read these tbh.
Nope, not buying it. If you can't understand that paying for an unfair advantage is exactly the same thing as paying for cheats then there's nothing more to say.
But what advantage do you gain by controlling multiple characters? When it comes to gameplay it's actually a disadvantage as controlling multiple characters is tougher than commanding just one.
The content doesn't become easier.
If you could explain what the advantage is in controlling more than one character I'd probably better understand your view point.
The only advantages I can see is you don't have to wait for other players or deal with bad players.
I also don't care for the unfair aspect of it as many have pointed out someone using a 20+ buttoned mouse has an unfair advantage. Yeah, I could buy the same mouse just as a player can buy more than one account.
If there is a real risk, you cannot control multiple characters. This is your own delusion - I'm multiboxer so I'm a great player. But you are not. It is the same like the believe that PvE is a big challenge in WoW, and etc. You are playing solo and safe a multiplayer game, and you admit you use multiboxing to avoid the other players - this is so obviously wrong.
I only ever dual boxed in EQ and LotrO so I still grouped with people. I did it because the content allowed me to do it.
Playing one role in a group felt restrictive to me.
I still consider it a form of cheating. But at least in an MMO like GW2 (as an example) its not really getting an advantage over someone else by having 5 characters at same time or whatever number...which in my definitions above is the common theme of cheating is gaining an advantage. Where as, in an MMO like WoW its the opposite and becomes a huge advantage.
This is where I diasgree.
Personally cheating is just not about gaining an advantage. It's gaining it dishonestly or unfairly.
This first link may help you with your definitions. Everyone here should read these tbh.
Comments
So, when games used to be intentionally coded with cheat codes, back in the day, and you used one of those cheat codes.. were you cheating?
I'm not sure you understand the definition of cheating. Microtransactions 'are' cheating. That's what the whole P2W thing is all about and that's why it's a problem.
I guess cheating is so commonplace now that you think it stopped being cheating based on popularity.
Though some games like Fallout 3 NV actually flag you as a cheater if you change the difficulty level or use command line codes to modify the game, perhaps because progress and scores are tracked on Steam or GOG, not sure since I didn't cheat.
Microtransactions and P2W can be bad for gaming, or impact other people's experience, but again it isn't cheating if the developers offer it in game to everyone.
Purchasing gold or items outside of legally authorized channels is cheating, so in the case of EVE its illegal to trade accounts, characters, ships, wormholes, or ISK outside of the in game systems CCP provides.
Allowing others to purchase unfair advantage has pretty much become the norm, but as someone in MMORPGs has always had an unfair advantage over me if they could play more than me, or had a better guild, or understood the game better, or was better at socializing, etc etc I grew to understand it didnt really matter how advantage was gained, just whether I felt any compulsion to participate.
In EVE I never have, while other games such as ROM it felt like the cash shop was a requirement.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Sure, not on the "I Win" button magnitude, neither on the usefulness of your own fleet of capsuleers in Eve... but it can be convenient, and also fun.
My take on the thread question is a nope. Of course I'm biased because, like Kyleran, I too have alt accounts in every game I used to play.
Having multiple accounts is not "ruining MMOs", it does jackshit to them. On the contrary, some games like Eve even encourages and supports alt accounts. I don't play Eve, but as I have heard every player there has several accounts...
Multiboxing those accounts at the same time could be a different topic, but to be honest I don't remember any older games having a rule against multiboxing. That doesn't "ruin MMOs" either, but extreme over-using could be potentially harmful, so that issue is a more valid debate.
In LotRO for example, it is allowed to multibox for the fun part (like the aforementioned practice of a band piece, or assembling matching outfits for an event, etc.), and probably for mild advancement as well (I don't think anyone was ever punished by pulling an alt through a few levels or crafting tiers).
However, for obvious reasons, they can be much more rigid when someone uses multiboxing for farming out hundreds of LotRO Points at once, since that's the shop currency and it directly affects their wallet...
I guess I'll just load up Skyrim.. use console commands to get max level at the start and fill my inventory with money.
After, I'll load up WOW.. buy a max level boost and buy a load of tokens to fill my inventory with money.
I've done the same thing in both games. I'll be comfortable with myself because I know I didn't cheat in either case according to your reasoning, the devs gave me the ability to do these things so it can't be cheating.
Let's give WoW as another example..
In current expansion dungeons, you basically get a loot roll for your class (or selected specialisation). If you are controlling the whole party, you are getting 5 times the loot.. and.. if you wanted to, you could give all that loot to one character within 2 hours. You could run 5 paladins; 1 as a healer, 1 as a tank and 3 as DPS. You want healer gear so you choose that Loot Specialisation on all the characters.
You can now farm loot for your healer 5 times faster than anyone else.
How about.. personal nodes in GW2 and now Wow? Probably other games too. You can run around with as many characters as you want and farm all the materials multiple times.. at the same time. /Follow your main character.. good to go. Just got to click on the node for each one. (not sure if GW2 has a follow option, WoW does)
Never saw it as a raider in WOW, though I do recall this one guy named Rock on MLF who could control a party of 5 or so different characters if he had to, including healing, crowd control, tanking and debuffing.
Claimed he did it in a command center with 6 computers, but didn't bot.
Rock never took his parties into PVP, for that he only played his solo Infiltrator, (with buff bot of course) and was one of the top ones on the server. If Rock was leveling his pack at some camp of significance he always welcomed folks to join which he would fill in any missing slots.
Back to your WOW example, who cares if someone can solo farm trash loot faster? I very much doubt many can solo top raid content, if with macro bots, too unpredictable, unless that's changed.
Top raiding guilds can farm top gear faster, so what?
I think you are suffering from a terrible case of envy, as you have not raised any good reasons in these conversations.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
BTW, I am playing WoW right now as a matter of fact.. and I just tested following whilst flying. Totally works fine so I guess I get to have a good laugh at you instead? That kind of talk is petty and more insulting than anything I'm doing, btw. I'm not set up for recording, it's not something I've ever done.. but please try it yourself if you're in doubt. When I say it works fine, I mean it works perfectly.
In my example it was either Steam or GOG who were trying to track player accomplishment across a level playing field so they chose to establish rules prohibiting certain activities.
Trying to break those rules and evade detection would be cheating, but in the core game its not.
Reasoning, not a strong suit I see.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you think saying different words when describing something changes what it is.. then that's how you work. If that's how you convince yourself it's something different from cheating even though the reasons for doing it and result of doing it are exactly the same in both situations, that's up to you.
I get that you're never going to say it is cheating because it's something you like to be able to do... so, why bother continuing?
Somebody raiding by themselves multiboxing? Unless they're botting I'd wonder how the fuck they could do it. Controlling one toon in a raid is the limit of my skill, if someone is skilled enough to control a whole group or raid, I say power to them.
Unless of course they are botting.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
https://www.google.com/search?q=define+cheating&oq=define+cheating&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60j0l4.2197j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
=====================
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating_in_video_games
Cheating in video games involves a video game player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier or harder. Cheats may be activated from within the game itself (a cheat code implemented by the original game developers)
=======================
Nowhere does it say developers define what cheating is. In fact, it even says a cheat code can be implemented by the developers...but its still a cheat
In fact both definitions, is about gaining an advantage over someone else. But cheats don't always make the game easier as stated by Wikipedia. They can also make the game harder. But nowhere in either of those does it say the developers decide what a cheat is or is not...but in fact that developers can put in cheats if they want...but its still cheats.
And the common definition of cheats is gaining an advantage.
And this comes from a bot site, so obviously not linking it, but even they say multi-account is a type of cheat
Multiboxing in MMOs & MMORPGs
In Short: Multiboxing is the use of software in order to run multiple characters at once, often in one group and duplicating the movements of one “main character” to multiple “slave characters”. This practice results in a group of characters that are highly effective at farming, leveling and even PvP, which are all controlled by one single player. This kind of “cheat” is not explicitly forbidden in most MMORPGs, but highly frowned upon by most game communities.
Nowhere anywhere does it say developers decide what cheating is or is not. But in fact that developers can allow cheats or build the cheats into the game...but its still considered cheats.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
The killers already complain we have too many advantages in terms of intel, being able to see them in local, able to call in for support (ha, that is a good one) or what not.
Killers justification is since we PVEer are always getting rich, it is only "fair" they get a chance to take it. I guess, just a cost of doing business, the losses get factored in, always made a solid net profit.
Even when someone is clearly botting 30 mining barges, somehow their doing so doesn't "ruin" EVE for anyone.
As it also puts around 20B worth of ISK on the field (if they being a Rorq) most PVPers are thrilled when they occasionally get lucky and find a player who has made a grave mistake.
Cheers!
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Any argument what cheating is after that is more like trolling since the description of what cheating is is there for everyone (post above). Or severe delusion that it isn't cheating because they like to cheat and don't want to admit that.
But google and wikipedia and that other site that I won't name all say what cheating is.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
So the fact that MMOs and games in general are going toward action combat, actually would make multiboxing a LOT harder...which that I'm okay with actually.
As for challenge. When I did skyrim, I always used mods or console commands (or both) to make the game harder. Same with Fallout 4. I know some in the gaming community find mods are cheats, and some kinda are...but for Fallout 4 I have a really challenging survival based setup of mods and its super challenging but a lot of fun.
So that is my actual stance on it as far as MMOs go. Is multiboxing more of a challenge when used in action MMOs (the MMOs I listed and similar MMOs)...or does it make it easier like in MMOs like WoW...if its the former...that I am actually okay with. Sure even multiboxing 20 characters or whatever in WoW I imagine has its own challenges, but it just really makes it easier overall. But then compared to controlling 20 characters in GW2 (for example) where it does the opposite and actually makes it harder than playing solo since the game is so fast paced and its near impossible to really control even one single character let alone a whole bunch.
(edit:
I still consider it a form of cheating. But at least in an MMO like GW2 (as an example) its not really getting an advantage over someone else by having 5 characters at same time or whatever number...which in my definitions above is the common theme of cheating is gaining an advantage. Where as, in an MMO like WoW its the opposite and becomes a huge advantage.
And WoW is already easy enough solo...as a solo player I can solo some insane things as blood DK and affliction warlock (even in pre-patch). Even if controlling 5 characters or whatever as its challenges in WoW, its still overall way too easy to begin with and that would just make it easier compared to GW2 and similar MMOs.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
Seems cheating is just a buzzword that people don't like to have attached to them. They seem to think cheating always means unlawful or something...
http://www.thatvideogameblog.com/2016/12/06/cheat-vs-hack-vs-exploit/
and
https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2013/01/23/microtransactions-are-the-new-cheat-codes-and-why-thats-sad/