When WoW was released, developers came up with innovative ways to recreate WoW.
What about MOBA? When the LoL craze hit, everyone dev attempted to recreate LoL.
Then when the battleroyale craze hit, they found innovative ways to incorporate that into their games.
But if one game does something new and then a bunch of others try to copy it, then that first game genuinely was innovative. In some cases, the first game does it badly and someone else comes along and does it better, and the latter is the one everyone tries to copy. WoW wasn't the first MMORPG, nor was League of Legends the first MOBA, but that we now have MMORPGs and MOBAs means that some innovation must have occurred somewhere along the line.
RIFT introduced randomly spawning dimensional breaches ranging from solo to small group sized, to region spanning invasions, to make the world more dynamic and provide opportunity for spontaneous grouping. They also introduced modular ability tree selection, that allow you to select three trees from the pool of those available for your class, adding a higher degree of customization than is otherwise typical.
GW2 did away with the need to seek out quest givers to both get and turn in missions, made travel times negligible, and generally eliminating or reducing tedious MMORPG elements. They also introduced a system where your combat abilities varied greatly depending on your equipped weapons, adding an atypical layer of customization.
ESO uses scaling to eliminate the structured flow of many MMORPGs that require you to proceed through content along a strict path where your choices are largely limited by level, instead allowing players to adventure where they want regardless.
These aren't "invention of the printing press" scale innovations, but each brought something new to the table that caused them to stand out from their fellows.
I guess these are slight improvement and tweaks that are good QoL improvements except maybe the Rift changes which were a little more original. I liked the rifts when I first played Rift. Although nothing here can really be called an innovation since they did nothing to disrupt or really change how MMOs are played. I'd say these are mostly "another wick on the candle" changes.
I don't have answers as to what they could do to really refresh the MMO genre but I know that I'm getting real tired of playing mostly the same game with a different title and skin since the invention of the MMO
Slight improvements are the general process of innovation. Major innovations that produce ground breaking change are few and far between. If one only counts the major ones they are doomed to see nothing but stagnation for great lengths of time.
I think cars have changed a lot over the years, and there have been a lot of innovations to them, but they all still have the same basic design of 4 wheels, a single driver, seats, windows, doors. One could look at Cars like MMO's. Each one is in it's own way unique, special, innovative, yet.. overall they are still all kinda the same.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
RIFT introduced randomly spawning dimensional breaches ranging from solo to small group sized, to region spanning invasions, to make the world more dynamic and provide opportunity for spontaneous grouping. They also introduced modular ability tree selection, that allow you to select three trees from the pool of those available for your class, adding a higher degree of customization than is otherwise typical.
GW2 did away with the need to seek out quest givers to both get and turn in missions, made travel times negligible, and generally eliminating or reducing tedious MMORPG elements. They also introduced a system where your combat abilities varied greatly depending on your equipped weapons, adding an atypical layer of customization.
ESO uses scaling to eliminate the structured flow of many MMORPGs that require you to proceed through content along a strict path where your choices are largely limited by level, instead allowing players to adventure where they want regardless.
These aren't "invention of the printing press" scale innovations, but each brought something new to the table that caused them to stand out from their fellows.
"Rifts" were just public quests that they borrowed from Warhammer...it wasnt anything innovative.
I think cars have changed a lot over the years, and there have been a lot of innovations to them, but they all still have the same basic design of 4 wheels, a single driver, seats, windows, doors. One could look at Cars like MMO's. Each one is in it's own way unique, special, innovative, yet.. overall they are still all kinda the same.
LOL I would like to see people make the same arguments for cars that they do for MMOs.
"Back in the old days you could only go 30mph and you had to do all of your own repairs, now cars go by so fast and they drive themselves. Car manufacturers need to stop dumbing cars down!"
Can people read the entire OP at least before posting? I didn't say there's no innovation in gaming since it's creation... just over the last 10 years, it has been especially lacking. Also, it's not really an innovation if it's just a gimmick of insert random game that doesn't really affect other games that come after.
I think cars have changed a lot over the years, and there have been a lot of innovations to them, but they all still have the same basic design of 4 wheels, a single driver, seats, windows, doors. One could look at Cars like MMO's. Each one is in it's own way unique, special, innovative, yet.. overall they are still all kinda the same.
LOL I would like to see people make the same arguments for cars that they do for MMOs.
"Back in the old days you could only go 30mph and you had to do all of your own repairs, now cars go by so fast and they drive themselves. Car manufacturers need to stop dumbing cars down!"
Dude .... that sounds like my Uncle.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Can people read the entire OP at least before posting? I didn't say there's no innovation in gaming since it's creation... just over the last 10 years, it has been especially lacking. Also, it's not really an innovation if it's just a gimmick of insert random game that doesn't really affect other games that come after.
Between you and me,
I loved BDO's combat, I thought the combo system was really innovative.
I loved how Trove managed to use a Voxel game set up but build a beautiful MMO landscape. I thought that was some innovation (given a lot of newer MMO's seem to be adopting this approach, it shows some good application)
I really liked how GW2 handled mounts, they were not just Speed Boosts, they each had a platforming ability that made them unique to the landscape. I thought that was pretty innovative.
And speaking of GW2, I loved their Dynamic Leveling System, where even after making max level you could still go back and play with your friends in the starting zones and not be stupid OPed.
So there have been some good bits and parts, often however, just that, bits and parts, and some really great ideas are not always in really great MMO's.. just saying on that one.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
What kinds of "innovations" are folks seeking? I see that word thrown about quite a bit and I often wonder what people really mean.
Can we have innovations that don't change the whole genre? Minor innovations happen here and there. Most of the innovations I've seen deal with graphics, and I'm still wondering if they're good or not.
Someone mentioned GW2's questing. If I recall correctly, one still had to speak to the quest giver afterwards to receive their "special reward" and shop at their "special shop." Basically, this innovation removed the "tedious" running back and forth and role playing aspect of actually speaking with an NPC.
GW2's dynamic events was fun at first, then annoying. I only played a little and saw many, many players totally ignore dynamic events. I quickly understood why after escorting the caravan for the tenth time while running to my next area of interest.
Someone else mentioned WoW, but it rarely innovates, just implements better.
What are the basics of MMOs and what can be "innovated" without changing the genre (besides graphics...)? (Is this a whole new thread?)
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
What kinds of "innovations" are folks seeking? I see that word thrown about quite a bit and I often wonder what people really mean.
Can we have innovations that don't change the whole genre? Minor innovations happen here and there. Most of the innovations I've seen deal with graphics, and I'm still wondering if they're good or not.
Someone mentioned GW2's questing. If I recall correctly, one still had to speak to the quest giver afterwards to receive their "special reward" and shop at their "special shop." Basically, this innovation removed the "tedious" running back and forth and role playing aspect of actually speaking with an NPC.
GW2's dynamic events was fun at first, then annoying. I only played a little and saw many, many players totally ignore dynamic events. I quickly understood why after escorting the caravan for the tenth time while running to my next area of interest.
Someone else mentioned WoW, but it rarely innovates, just implements better.
What are the basics of MMOs and what can be "innovated" without changing the genre (besides graphics...)? (Is this a whole new thread?)
Actually, I think there is room for a lot of improvement in MMORPGs. But actually innovating might involve thinking outside the core elements of melee, magic, healing and crafting that we think of when we think of an MMORPG. These are the fundamental abstractions that D&D made, and no one has really ventured outside that comfort zone. Why? It's risky, games cost enough already without compounding the risk of failure. It's easier to do something already blocked out, even if it involves a new abstraction of something another game already tried.
The companies don't have to establish new expectations among the customer base. They can get players to buy in on a card-based melee system easier than they could get those same players to accept a new abstracted system, like politics. At least, I think that is how companies are thinking, they don't credit players with wanting to try something they've never seen before. It's really a bit of a disservice, probably. But imposing a completely new concept on the player base is difficult and expensive, so companies see that as extra risk.
I think there are plenty of things that could be innovated in an MMORPG, I think we're likely to be stuck with incremental forms of evolution rather than anything radical. Incremental change and radical change are both innovations. It's just that companies are more comfortable attempting incremental changes rather than something completely different.
"And now for something completely different." We need more Monty Pythons in the game development business.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
RIFT introduced randomly spawning dimensional breaches ranging from solo to small group sized, to region spanning invasions, to make the world more dynamic and provide opportunity for spontaneous grouping. They also introduced modular ability tree selection, that allow you to select three trees from the pool of those available for your class, adding a higher degree of customization than is otherwise typical.
GW2 did away with the need to seek out quest givers to both get and turn in missions, made travel times negligible, and generally eliminating or reducing tedious MMORPG elements. They also introduced a system where your combat abilities varied greatly depending on your equipped weapons, adding an atypical layer of customization.
ESO uses scaling to eliminate the structured flow of many MMORPGs that require you to proceed through content along a strict path where your choices are largely limited by level, instead allowing players to adventure where they want regardless.
These aren't "invention of the printing press" scale innovations, but each brought something new to the table that caused them to stand out from their fellows.
"Rifts" were just public quests that they borrowed from Warhammer...it wasnt anything innovative.
Public quests are in Champions Online, so Warhammer wasn't the originator of them.
Regardless, rifts go far beyond the limited scope of public quests, as they are more than something that one just happens upon and can participate in (though they can be that in the simplest of terms.) Rather, they are a central system over which the character is able to develop greater influence over time as they attune with the elements over time. Further to that, rifts have other uses beyond interacting with the planes that the character put them to.
So, the rifts are more than just public quests.
However, Rift does have something akin to public quests in the form of Instant Adventures, that essentially joins a series of short "adventures" together in patchwork fashion, that culminates in a boss battle every five or so, and then starts the cycle over again ad nauseam. One can join the queue and have it pop pretty much instantly to be thrown into a random group and drop out just as easily when they get tired of riding that train.
Someone mentioned GW2's questing. If I recall correctly, one still had to speak to the quest giver afterwards to receive their "special reward" and shop at their "special shop." Basically, this innovation removed the "tedious" running back and forth and role playing aspect of actually speaking with an NPC.
GW2's dynamic events was fun at first, then annoying. I only played a little and saw many, many players totally ignore dynamic events. I quickly understood why after escorting the caravan for the tenth time while running to my next area of interest.
Someone else mentioned WoW, but it rarely innovates, just implements better.
What are the basics of MMOs and what can be "innovated" without changing the genre (besides graphics...)? (Is this a whole new thread?)
You recall incorrectly. The currency reward was delivered remotely. You only had to return to the NPC if you wished to buy something at that shop. Otherwise, you could use it any any shop that accepted it.
If you wish to return to quest givers as role-play you are free to do so. Those that see that as tedious busywork are free to carry on adventuring.
Repeating the same dynamic event will get old quickly, which may explain why many you saw chose to largely ignore them.
WoW innovated to the point where the vast majority of MMORPGs that came after followed as closely in their footsteps as possible for quite some time. I suppose it feels old hat now that virtually everyone has been doing it a long while, but WoW started it all and many feel it continues to be the best at it.
VR may be able to advance MMORPGs to a groundbreaking level once it reaches a point of sufficient sophistication, but such is the province of fiction for now.
Otherwise, innovations will come in small doses that for the most part will be minor tweaks of what has been about for some time.
I've seen some talk of trying to make the game world dynamically change in response to collective player action. If that works out it could freshen up things a bit.
Someone mentioned GW2's questing. If I recall correctly, one still had to speak to the quest giver afterwards to receive their "special reward" and shop at their "special shop." Basically, this innovation removed the "tedious" running back and forth and role playing aspect of actually speaking with an NPC.
GW2's dynamic events was fun at first, then annoying. I only played a little and saw many, many players totally ignore dynamic events. I quickly understood why after escorting the caravan for the tenth time while running to my next area of interest.
Someone else mentioned WoW, but it rarely innovates, just implements better.
What are the basics of MMOs and what can be "innovated" without changing the genre (besides graphics...)? (Is this a whole new thread?)
You recall incorrectly. The currency reward was delivered remotely. You only had to return to the NPC if you wished to buy something at that shop. Otherwise, you could use it any any shop that accepted it.
If you wish to return to quest givers as role-play you are free to do so. Those that see that as tedious busywork are free to carry on adventuring.
Thanks for those GW2 clarifications. Once I read your post I recalled getting in game e-mails with rewards
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Someone mentioned GW2's questing. If I recall correctly, one still had to speak to the quest giver afterwards to receive their "special reward" and shop at their "special shop." Basically, this innovation removed the "tedious" running back and forth and role playing aspect of actually speaking with an NPC.
GW2's dynamic events was fun at first, then annoying. I only played a little and saw many, many players totally ignore dynamic events. I quickly understood why after escorting the caravan for the tenth time while running to my next area of interest.
Someone else mentioned WoW, but it rarely innovates, just implements better.
What are the basics of MMOs and what can be "innovated" without changing the genre (besides graphics...)? (Is this a whole new thread?)
You recall incorrectly. The currency reward was delivered remotely. You only had to return to the NPC if you wished to buy something at that shop. Otherwise, you could use it any any shop that accepted it.
If you wish to return to quest givers as role-play you are free to do so. Those that see that as tedious busywork are free to carry on adventuring.
Thanks for those GW2 clarifications. Once I read your post I recalled getting in game e-mails with rewards
Most welcome. In a way, it is a bit of a double-edged sword. It is quick and easy, and does away with a lot of backtracking. However, it could also easily be immersion killing for many.
One generally expects to interact directly when handing in quests and receiving rewards in a largely fantasy setting rather then having their pay delivered by direct deposit and their thanks by what is effectively instant messaging.
Someone mentioned GW2's questing. If I recall correctly, one still had to speak to the quest giver afterwards to receive their "special reward" and shop at their "special shop." Basically, this innovation removed the "tedious" running back and forth and role playing aspect of actually speaking with an NPC.
GW2's dynamic events was fun at first, then annoying. I only played a little and saw many, many players totally ignore dynamic events. I quickly understood why after escorting the caravan for the tenth time while running to my next area of interest.
Someone else mentioned WoW, but it rarely innovates, just implements better.
What are the basics of MMOs and what can be "innovated" without changing the genre (besides graphics...)? (Is this a whole new thread?)
You recall incorrectly. The currency reward was delivered remotely. You only had to return to the NPC if you wished to buy something at that shop. Otherwise, you could use it any any shop that accepted it.
If you wish to return to quest givers as role-play you are free to do so. Those that see that as tedious busywork are free to carry on adventuring.
Thanks for those GW2 clarifications. Once I read your post I recalled getting in game e-mails with rewards
Most welcome. In a way, it is a bit of a double-edged sword. It is quick and easy, and does away with a lot of backtracking. However, it could also easily be immersion killing for many.
One generally expects to interact directly when handing in quests and receiving rewards in a largely fantasy setting rather then having their pay delivered by direct deposit and their thanks by what is effectively instant messaging.
While this is true, I have to say I loved how they treated it like an actual letter you would receive from the quest giver.
Very nice touch.
Yes. I have map completion on more then one character.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Someone mentioned GW2's questing. If I recall correctly, one still had to speak to the quest giver afterwards to receive their "special reward" and shop at their "special shop." Basically, this innovation removed the "tedious" running back and forth and role playing aspect of actually speaking with an NPC.
GW2's dynamic events was fun at first, then annoying. I only played a little and saw many, many players totally ignore dynamic events. I quickly understood why after escorting the caravan for the tenth time while running to my next area of interest.
Someone else mentioned WoW, but it rarely innovates, just implements better.
What are the basics of MMOs and what can be "innovated" without changing the genre (besides graphics...)? (Is this a whole new thread?)
You recall incorrectly. The currency reward was delivered remotely. You only had to return to the NPC if you wished to buy something at that shop. Otherwise, you could use it any any shop that accepted it.
If you wish to return to quest givers as role-play you are free to do so. Those that see that as tedious busywork are free to carry on adventuring.
Thanks for those GW2 clarifications. Once I read your post I recalled getting in game e-mails with rewards
Most welcome. In a way, it is a bit of a double-edged sword. It is quick and easy, and does away with a lot of backtracking. However, it could also easily be immersion killing for many.
One generally expects to interact directly when handing in quests and receiving rewards in a largely fantasy setting rather then having their pay delivered by direct deposit and their thanks by what is effectively instant messaging.
While this is true, I have to say I loved how they treated it like an actual letter you would receive from the quest giver.
Very nice touch.
Yes. I have map completion on more then one character.
The presentation was well done, as you say, and that method of quest completion didn't bother me personally. I could see it not being to the taste of some, though.
I did come to dislike other elements of the game, but many would feel these issues petty in nature. For me, though, it is the petty things that can come to be vexing over time.
Regardless, GW2 has many great features, and provides an incredibly generous amount of content at no cost so that one can get an excellent impression of the game by the time any purchase must be made if they want to press on further.
RIFT introduced randomly spawning dimensional breaches ranging from solo to small group sized, to region spanning invasions, to make the world more dynamic and provide opportunity for spontaneous grouping. They also introduced modular ability tree selection, that allow you to select three trees from the pool of those available for your class, adding a higher degree of customization than is otherwise typical.
GW2 did away with the need to seek out quest givers to both get and turn in missions, made travel times negligible, and generally eliminating or reducing tedious MMORPG elements. They also introduced a system where your combat abilities varied greatly depending on your equipped weapons, adding an atypical layer of customization.
ESO uses scaling to eliminate the structured flow of many MMORPGs that require you to proceed through content along a strict path where your choices are largely limited by level, instead allowing players to adventure where they want regardless.
These aren't "invention of the printing press" scale innovations, but each brought something new to the table that caused them to stand out from their fellows.
"Rifts" were just public quests that they borrowed from Warhammer...it wasnt anything innovative.
Public quests are in Champions Online, so Warhammer wasn't the originator of them.
Regardless, rifts go far beyond the limited scope of public quests, as they are more than something that one just happens upon and can participate in (though they can be that in the simplest of terms.) Rather, they are a central system over which the character is able to develop greater influence over time as they attune with the elements over time. Further to that, rifts have other uses beyond interacting with the planes that the character put them to.
So, the rifts are more than just public quests.
However, Rift does have something akin to public quests in the form of Instant Adventures, that essentially joins a series of short "adventures" together in patchwork fashion, that culminates in a boss battle every five or so, and then starts the cycle over again ad nauseam. One can join the queue and have it pop pretty much instantly to be thrown into a random group and drop out just as easily when they get tired of riding that train.
warhammer online released 1 year earlier than champions online.
Well, live and learn. Regardless, rifts are not akin to the public quests of either of them.
RIFT introduced randomly spawning dimensional breaches ranging from solo to small group sized, to region spanning invasions, to make the world more dynamic and provide opportunity for spontaneous grouping. They also introduced modular ability tree selection, that allow you to select three trees from the pool of those available for your class, adding a higher degree of customization than is otherwise typical.
GW2 did away with the need to seek out quest givers to both get and turn in missions, made travel times negligible, and generally eliminating or reducing tedious MMORPG elements. They also introduced a system where your combat abilities varied greatly depending on your equipped weapons, adding an atypical layer of customization.
ESO uses scaling to eliminate the structured flow of many MMORPGs that require you to proceed through content along a strict path where your choices are largely limited by level, instead allowing players to adventure where they want regardless.
These aren't "invention of the printing press" scale innovations, but each brought something new to the table that caused them to stand out from their fellows.
"Rifts" were just public quests that they borrowed from Warhammer...it wasnt anything innovative.
Public quests are in Champions Online, so Warhammer wasn't the originator of them.
Regardless, rifts go far beyond the limited scope of public quests, as they are more than something that one just happens upon and can participate in (though they can be that in the simplest of terms.) Rather, they are a central system over which the character is able to develop greater influence over time as they attune with the elements over time. Further to that, rifts have other uses beyond interacting with the planes that the character put them to.
So, the rifts are more than just public quests.
However, Rift does have something akin to public quests in the form of Instant Adventures, that essentially joins a series of short "adventures" together in patchwork fashion, that culminates in a boss battle every five or so, and then starts the cycle over again ad nauseam. One can join the queue and have it pop pretty much instantly to be thrown into a random group and drop out just as easily when they get tired of riding that train.
warhammer online released 1 year earlier than champions online.
Well, live and learn. Regardless, rifts are not akin to the public quests of either of them.
True, although the rifts ( back when rift released ) was just kind of random popped-pqs so in some ways the same, in other not. Variant of the system. Was fun in the beginning, tedious later on
For the rifts themselves that may well have been the case, at the very beginning of the game. But that was also the very beginning of rifts. They have grown far beyond it.
To say that rifts are a variant of public events is dismissive of their scope in the game, and how integral they are to setting of the world. They are conceptually a central element, where public events as I recall were just short-term repeatable scenarios that one could participate in on the fly if they happened to be about at the right time.
At least, that is what they are in Champions Online and GW2. The ones I played in Warhammer Online were basically the same. However, my time with game was extremely limited, so they may have been different as one played on, or over time while it was running, so maybe they eventually became more like rifts than I am aware of.
Either way, regardless of how one wants to categorize it, both group events and rifts, as they developed, added at least something to the mix.
I agree that rifts can get rather tedious, especially when they happen to intrude on what I actually want to be doing at the time, or if they are those scenario ones that don't always have clear objectives. The footholds with the waving wiener ( probably not the official name) that inflicts frequent crowd control are just damned annoying.
I think cars have changed a lot over the years, and there have been a lot of innovations to them, but they all still have the same basic design of 4 wheels, a single driver, seats, windows, doors. One could look at Cars like MMO's. Each one is in it's own way unique, special, innovative, yet.. overall they are still all kinda the same.
LOL I would like to see people make the same arguments for cars that they do for MMOs.
"Back in the old days you could only go 30mph and you had to do all of your own repairs, now cars go by so fast and they drive themselves. Car manufacturers need to stop dumbing cars down!"
Excellent example. Over 40 years ago I was promised flying cars. Instead they are on the verge of dumbing them down so that they will drive themselves, relegating me to being a simple passenger with no active control of the vehicle.
I also drove recklessly with no seat belts and my girlfriend rode right next to me on the bench seat where I could drape one arm around her at all times. Can't do any of that in most modern cars and my guess is few these days go to the drive in movie where I certainly had some great times.
Oh yes, how many 17 year olds today do you suppose help their friends pull motors and replace transmissions with 4:11 gearboxes in a 66 Chevelle SS 396? Spent more time working on it than driving it but oh did it "go" when we did.
Modern MMOs have pretty much gone the same way, we used to be able to create characters with varying racial and class stats, and choose differing skills, abilities and gear of varying effectiveness against multiple damage types.
Of course, there was a risk, you might not like the results, so you had to be careful with your choices or be prepared to re-roll.
Some classes could fly in Shadowbane, most modern MMOs prevent it as it "screws up the balance"
Back in the day, there was DAOC and its yet to be duplicated (well) RVR model. Today they give us GW2 and ESO. .....ugh...
So yeah, cars and MMOs, both have gone backwards in many ways, while of course improving in minor conviences but failing to deliver real change. (I.e flying)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Can people read the entire OP at least before posting? I didn't say there's no innovation in gaming since it's creation... just over the last 10 years, it has been especially lacking. Also, it's not really an innovation if it's just a gimmick of insert random game that doesn't really affect other games that come after.
Between you and me,
I loved BDO's combat, I thought the combo system was really innovative.
I loved how Trove managed to use a Voxel game set up but build a beautiful MMO landscape. I thought that was some innovation (given a lot of newer MMO's seem to be adopting this approach, it shows some good application)
I really liked how GW2 handled mounts, they were not just Speed Boosts, they each had a platforming ability that made them unique to the landscape. I thought that was pretty innovative.
And speaking of GW2, I loved their Dynamic Leveling System, where even after making max level you could still go back and play with your friends in the starting zones and not be stupid OPed.
So there have been some good bits and parts, often however, just that, bits and parts, and some really great ideas are not always in really great MMO's.. just saying on that one.
Well , BDO combat is Vindictus little brother and actually lesser combat imo
Trove , you cant even build in the open world but a tiny 10x10 shed and its not persistent has it is constantly taken down and moved , as there is no "World" really but a series of instanced worlds that dye ... rest is instanced .. Minecraft does a much better job of what you describe .. Trove tried to add a wick to Minecraft but mehhh ..
EQ2 has mounts that Fly,Run ,Glide,Jump ,Over Under Sideways Down,Backwards Forwards Square and Round .. Sooo GW2 did nothing here.. sideways move
EQ2 also had the Mentoring which allowed you to starting Zones as well as LOTRO with Refelction Mirror ,
So as you see all sideways moves again
All of the examples at best are parallel moves with no inovation at all ..
RIFT introduced randomly spawning dimensional breaches ranging from solo to small group sized, to region spanning invasions, to make the world more dynamic and provide opportunity for spontaneous grouping. They also introduced modular ability tree selection, that allow you to select three trees from the pool of those available for your class, adding a higher degree of customization than is otherwise typical.
GW2 did away with the need to seek out quest givers to both get and turn in missions, made travel times negligible, and generally eliminating or reducing tedious MMORPG elements. They also introduced a system where your combat abilities varied greatly depending on your equipped weapons, adding an atypical layer of customization.
ESO uses scaling to eliminate the structured flow of many MMORPGs that require you to proceed through content along a strict path where your choices are largely limited by level, instead allowing players to adventure where they want regardless.
These aren't "invention of the printing press" scale innovations, but each brought something new to the table that caused them to stand out from their fellows.
Rifts from Rift are just an expanded version of Wars , Which are actually quite static as you still need people to open the Tears , There is not this amazing Dynamic world taking place at all go on Prime and into the Silverwood , its completely dead and void of Rifts .. And as a sidenote .. games like UO AC and EQ were doing Public quests long before War or Rift and doing them better as they truly were not static or announced in anyway ..
Games like War and Rift tried to mimic those events buy eliminating the GM that conducted them , but producing a lesser and more boring and predictable version of UO/EQ/AC events
Dungeons and Dragons online has the Modular Tree(and its much Deeper) another sideways move , and the lesser imo...
Hmm many games have done Gear specific skills even in a 20 year old game like UO i can carry 4 different Bows if i choose each with different skills and varied swords with different Skills , and i swap constantly , another slight sideways move .
.. EQ2 and LOTRO both have remote quest triggers and turn ins , hundreds of them ...
As we know other games have introduced scaling before ESO and there version is an abomintation imo , T1 ruined much of the game , every fight feels exactly the same for lvl 1 - CP 232, there is no Overland challenge in 93% of the content ..And the all the lore is completly broken from it , Why as an AD would i want to save the village of the EP king so he can pat me on the head and give me a trinket , I should want to kill him as my mortal enemy not bath his feet ...
All of the examples at best are parallel moves with no inovation at all ..
RIFT introduced randomly spawning dimensional breaches ranging from solo to small group sized, to region spanning invasions, to make the world more dynamic and provide opportunity for spontaneous grouping. They also introduced modular ability tree selection, that allow you to select three trees from the pool of those available for your class, adding a higher degree of customization than is otherwise typical.
GW2 did away with the need to seek out quest givers to both get and turn in missions, made travel times negligible, and generally eliminating or reducing tedious MMORPG elements. They also introduced a system where your combat abilities varied greatly depending on your equipped weapons, adding an atypical layer of customization.
ESO uses scaling to eliminate the structured flow of many MMORPGs that require you to proceed through content along a strict path where your choices are largely limited by level, instead allowing players to adventure where they want regardless.
These aren't "invention of the printing press" scale innovations, but each brought something new to the table that caused them to stand out from their fellows.
Rifts from Rift are just an expanded version of Wars , Which are actually quite static as you still need people to open the Tears , There is not this amazing Dynamic world taking place at all go on Prime and into the Silverwood , its completely dead and void of Rifts .. And as a sidenote .. games like UO AC and EQ were doing Public quests long before War or Rift and doing them better as they truly were not static or announced in anyway ..
Games like War and Rift tried to mimic those events buy eliminating the GM that conducted them , but producing a lesser and more boring version of UO/EQ/AC events
Dungeons and Dragons online has the Modular Tree(and its much Deeper) another sideways move , and the lesser imo...
Hmm many games have done Gear specific skills even in a 20 year old game like UO i can carry 4 different Bows if i choose each with different skills and varied swords with different Skills , and i swap constantly , another slight sideways move ..
As we know other games have introduced scaling before ESO and there version is an abomintation imo , T1 ruined much of the game , every fight feels exactly the same for lvl 1 - CP 232, there is no Overland challenge in 93% of the content ..And the all the lore is completly broken from it , Why as an AD would i want to save the village of the EP king so he can pat me on the head and give me a trinket , I should want to kill him as my mortal enemy not bath his feet ...
They replaced GM's with scripted events, and who wants to go and meet a scripted event rather than play something made for the day by a GM?
I think cars have changed a lot over the years, and there have been a lot of innovations to them, but they all still have the same basic design of 4 wheels, a single driver, seats, windows, doors. One could look at Cars like MMO's. Each one is in it's own way unique, special, innovative, yet.. overall they are still all kinda the same.
LOL I would like to see people make the same arguments for cars that they do for MMOs.
"Back in the old days you could only go 30mph and you had to do all of your own repairs, now cars go by so fast and they drive themselves. Car manufacturers need to stop dumbing cars down!"
Excellent example. Over 40 years ago I was promised flying cars. Instead they are on the verge of dumbing them down so that they will drive themselves, relegating me to being a simple passenger with no active control of the vehicle.
I also drove recklessly with no seat belts and my girlfriend rode right next to me on the bench seat where I could drape one arm around her at all times. Can't do any of that in most modern cars and my guess is few these days go to the drive in movie where I certainly had some great times.
Oh yes, how many 17 year olds today do you suppose help their friends pull motors and replace transmissions with 4:11 gearboxes in a 66 Chevelle SS 396? Spent more time working on it than driving it but oh did it "go" when we did.
Modern MMOs have pretty much gone the same way, we used to be able to create characters with varying racial and class stats, and choose differing skills, abilities and gear of varying effectiveness against multiple damage types.
Of course, there was a risk, you might not like the results, so you had to be careful with your choices or be prepared to re-roll.
Some classes could fly in Shadowbane, most modern MMOs prevent it as it "screws up the balance"
Back in the day, there was DAOC and its yet to be duplicated (well) RVR model. Today they give us GW2 and ESO. .....ugh...
So yeah, cars and MMOs, both have gone backwards in many ways, while of course improving in minor conviences but failing to deliver real change. (I.e flying)
I was promised jetpacks too btw......
You lived in the good ole days. I was born in 1981 but i want to buy a classic car in the future
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Comments
I loved BDO's combat, I thought the combo system was really innovative.
I loved how Trove managed to use a Voxel game set up but build a beautiful MMO landscape. I thought that was some innovation (given a lot of newer MMO's seem to be adopting this approach, it shows some good application)
I really liked how GW2 handled mounts, they were not just Speed Boosts, they each had a platforming ability that made them unique to the landscape. I thought that was pretty innovative.
And speaking of GW2, I loved their Dynamic Leveling System, where even after making max level you could still go back and play with your friends in the starting zones and not be stupid OPed.
So there have been some good bits and parts, often however, just that, bits and parts, and some really great ideas are not always in really great MMO's.. just saying on that one.
Can we have innovations that don't change the whole genre? Minor innovations happen here and there. Most of the innovations I've seen deal with graphics, and I'm still wondering if they're good or not.
Someone mentioned GW2's questing. If I recall correctly, one still had to speak to the quest giver afterwards to receive their "special reward" and shop at their "special shop." Basically, this innovation removed the "tedious" running back and forth and role playing aspect of actually speaking with an NPC.
GW2's dynamic events was fun at first, then annoying. I only played a little and saw many, many players totally ignore dynamic events. I quickly understood why after escorting the caravan for the tenth time while running to my next area of interest.
Someone else mentioned WoW, but it rarely innovates, just implements better.
What are the basics of MMOs and what can be "innovated" without changing the genre (besides graphics...)? (Is this a whole new thread?)
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
The companies don't have to establish new expectations among the customer base. They can get players to buy in on a card-based melee system easier than they could get those same players to accept a new abstracted system, like politics. At least, I think that is how companies are thinking, they don't credit players with wanting to try something they've never seen before. It's really a bit of a disservice, probably. But imposing a completely new concept on the player base is difficult and expensive, so companies see that as extra risk.
I think there are plenty of things that could be innovated in an MMORPG, I think we're likely to be stuck with incremental forms of evolution rather than anything radical. Incremental change and radical change are both innovations. It's just that companies are more comfortable attempting incremental changes rather than something completely different.
"And now for something completely different." We need more Monty Pythons in the game development business.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
What would I like to see? Just an change of focus from single player and exploring SWG line of thinking and dynamic content based around it.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Very nice touch.
Yes. I have map completion on more then one character.
I also drove recklessly with no seat belts and my girlfriend rode right next to me on the bench seat where I could drape one arm around her at all times. Can't do any of that in most modern cars and my guess is few these days go to the drive in movie where I certainly had some great times.
Oh yes, how many 17 year olds today do you suppose help their friends pull motors and replace transmissions with 4:11 gearboxes in a 66 Chevelle SS 396? Spent more time working on it than driving it but oh did it "go" when we did.
Modern MMOs have pretty much gone the same way, we used to be able to create characters with varying racial and class stats, and choose differing skills, abilities and gear of varying effectiveness against multiple damage types.
Of course, there was a risk, you might not like the results, so you had to be careful with your choices or be prepared to re-roll.
Some classes could fly in Shadowbane, most modern MMOs prevent it as it "screws up the balance"
Back in the day, there was DAOC and its yet to be duplicated (well) RVR model. Today they give us GW2 and ESO. .....ugh...
So yeah, cars and MMOs, both have gone backwards in many ways, while of course improving in minor conviences but failing to deliver real change. (I.e flying)
I was promised jetpacks too btw......
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Innovation is how we got to a place where no one even knows what a mmorpg is anymore, but many agree that whatever one is, it sucks.
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