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Legends of Aria trying a Karma System to control ganking

MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,531
in Legends of Aria
LoA is putting in a somewhat complex "Karma System" to try and prevent the game from becoming a gankfest.  Wouldn't it just be easier to have two official servers?  One with unrestricted, open-world PvP and the other purely PvE?  I guess I just don't have much faith in developers' ability to control determined gankers.  What do you guys think?

https://www.legendsofaria.com/feature-highlight-karma-system/
craftseekerSlyLoKceratop001Tokkend_20
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Comments

  • aslan132aslan132 Member UncommonPosts: 630
    The biggest problem with making a PVE server, is that it becomes the only one. PVP servers die when PVE servers are made. 
    bcbullyOctagon7711PeskyPhry
  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    There is a fatal flaw in 'karma' systems, and all other similar 'gank control' systems. Ganking has to occur for them to kick in. The result is miserable players, both those that get ganked and those that do the ganking and both groups seek other games.
    [Deleted User]Gdemami
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,531
    aslan132 said:
    The biggest problem with making a PVE server, is that it becomes the only one. PVP servers die when PVE servers are made. 
    But doesn't that speak volumes about the lack of demand for PvP servers?  The only ones that want them are the tiny majority of gankers.  The vast majority of players don't want to deal with them.
    craftseekerKyleranVrikaPeskyPhryd_20
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,843
    If a games economy, player interaction as a whole is built around pvp you can’t just “add a pve sever”. 

    Add bounty hunters and jail, problem solved.
    craftseeker[Deleted User]Gdemami
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,531
    edited November 2018
    bcbully said:
    If a games economy, player interaction as a whole is built around pvp you can’t just “add a pve sever”. 

    Add bounty hunters and jail, problem solved.
    Is there a successful MMO that has a working system like this?  That effectively prevents ganking?  I remember Archeage trying some kind of jail system, and it was a joke.
    craftseeker[Deleted User]Phryd_20
  • CazrielCazriel Member RarePosts: 419
    These never work because gankers don't care.  How is it devs have not figured this out yet? 
    aslan132 said:
    The biggest problem with making a PVE server, is that it becomes the only one. PVP servers die when PVE servers are made. 
    Surprise!  Given a "meaningful choice" players will opt for "happy" over "challenging". 
    Octagon7711
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,193
    Pvp zones or some Pvp flag is the only way to go. Separate servers splits the population and any kind of open pvp, even with karma, will drive away most players. 
    Octagon7711
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,531
    edited November 2018
    Pvp zones or some Pvp flag is the only way to go. Separate servers splits the population and any kind of open pvp, even with karma, will drive away most players. 
    There are PvP-free areas.  The question is, is all the "best stuff" in open PvP areas? 

    I just don't get why so many of these indie developers are going for open PvP when it's pretty much a disaster for most MMOs.  Maybe it's a carry-over from a development period before people realized open PvP in an MMO is pretty much a kiss of death?  I mean, EVE pulled it off to some extent, but how many other MMOs can say that?  If you're an indie developer that's already going to be struggling to get any significant player base, why scare away so many potential players?  Is it the lure of having a mostly PvP experience because they can't afford to develop a lot of PvE content?
    Octagon7711PeskyManWithNoTan
  • GinazGinaz Member RarePosts: 2,571
    MightyUnclean said:
    Pvp zones or some Pvp flag is the only way to go. Separate servers splits the population and any kind of open pvp, even with karma, will drive away most players. 
    There are PvP-free areas.  The question is, is all the "best stuff" in open PvP areas? 

    I just don't get why so many of these indie developers are going for open PvP when it's pretty much a disaster for most MMOs.  Maybe it's a carry-over from a development period before people realized open PvP in an MMO is pretty much a kiss of death?  I mean, EVE pulled it off to some extent, but how many other MMOs can say that?  If you're an indie developer that's already going to be struggling to get any significant player base, why scare away so many potential players?  Is it the lure of having a mostly PvP experience because they can't afford to develop a lot of PvE content?
    It's because they can't afford to make actual content, so the players are forced to make their own through pvp.
    KyleranOctagon7711d_20

    Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

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  • GinazGinaz Member RarePosts: 2,571
    bcbully said:
    If a games economy, player interaction as a whole is built around pvp you can’t just “add a pve sever”. 

    Add bounty hunters and jail, problem solved.
    Name me an MMO where your "solution" has actually worked.  I'm not holding my breath for your answer.
    Octagon7711

    Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?

    Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 10,014
    MightyUnclean said:
    Pvp zones or some Pvp flag is the only way to go. Separate servers splits the population and any kind of open pvp, even with karma, will drive away most players. 
    There are PvP-free areas.  The question is, is all the "best stuff" in open PvP areas? 

    I just don't get why so many of these indie developers are going for open PvP when it's pretty much a disaster for most MMOs.  Maybe it's a carry-over from a development period before people realized open PvP in an MMO is pretty much a kiss of death?  I mean, EVE pulled it off to some extent, but how many other MMOs can say that?  If you're an indie developer that's already going to be struggling to get any significant player base, why scare away so many potential players?  Is it the lure of having a mostly PvP experience because they can't afford to develop a lot of PvE content?
    In general PVPers are a very vocal lot......Theyve done polls here a few times to find out how many really enjoy PVP MMOs and its usually a 1/3 of the players or less.
  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 2,012
    Lets be honest here.  No matter what Karma system you put in a Open World Full Loot PVP game that said game will have a very low population and will always be on life support as a game.  Why do you think Mortal Online has been on life support since day 1 and the developers make that a part time job?  Because they have a few thousand players playing and those players donate money to the game because no one would pay for a subscription nor would they spend more than a little money here or there on the game. 

    Coming from playing UO who played in 1998 I understand what LoA is trying to do.  However LoA will not work as an MMORPG in todays MMORPG genera and make money.  They are trying to get people to accept OP Full Loot PVP which will NEVER happen.   There are better ways of doing Open world PVP and This game is not one of them.   Having Full Loot PVP just makes sure your game is Dead on arrival and the developers and player base has already driven off several thousand players because of being stupid asses thinking that players will be OK with this system.  I had a one on one conversation with a developer and his head is up his ass thinking their system works and people will come in once the game is release and everything will be fine.    It will not work and they will have spent 5+ years making a game that quickly will shut down.  

    There is a lot of good ideas in Open world PVP games coming up like Ashes of Creation and Camelot unchained.  Both groups of developers understand that adding Full PVP Looting would kill their games.  So they are putting in some PVP Looting and with Ashes they are making a Karma system which will reduce ganking because the gankers will quickly risk more than their prey.  Both are very good ideas to open World PVP.  SWG had some good OP PVP systems.  They had the player run bases and players attacking a city with other faction players.   Players didnt need to flag up if they were covert which was good for crafters and non combat players.  It also allowed new players not to be forced into PVP.  However guys like me on my commado would always flag up when the odds were even.  If it was me and 3 friends and the city had 40 imps in it I wouldnt flag up no matter what they said.   Yet When these 40 imps had their base vulnerable I attacked the base and them.   I didnt have to worry about them looting my shit, yea my shit broke and I was OK with that.   

    Yet LoA developers got their heads up their asses trying to make LoA a successful OW Full Loot PVP game while telling anyone that disagrees with them casual carebears.   I gave good feedback and good ideas for them to clean up their game and make it successful.  They want Pre T2A UO which more power too them but it will fail or be the next MO. 

    Reality is OW Full Loot PVP mmorpgs dont work and have a very small population.   
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    aslan132 said:
    The biggest problem with making a PVE server, is that it becomes the only one. PVP servers die when PVE servers are made. 
    Well then that would make it clear to stray away from a fail idea ,would it not?
    PVP in a mmorpg is imo a ridiculous idea,there is no way to balance something like that,so there is always going to be an ongoing outcry of complaints and balancing.

    Why not just aim for PVE only?If they are just having this pvp idea to aim for more customers,that is a selfish reason to ruin the game and will only RUIN your potential to grow rather than help it.
    SlyLoK

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Member RarePosts: 2,698
    edited November 2018
    aslan132 said:
    The biggest problem with making a PVE server, is that it becomes the only one. PVP servers die when PVE servers are made. 
    PvP servers die anyway. It was the reason Trammel came along with UO. Players that didn't want to PvP were going elsewhere.

    Really the only way I see a combined server working is a faction Order vs Chaos. If you want to PVP then you join one of those factions.
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,177
    I will believe this when I see it actually working. Most systems just end up being abused or irrelevant and largely ignored since DMKano in one game talked about creating throwaway characters to grief and circumvent the karma system.

  • YaevinduskYaevindusk Member RarePosts: 2,094
    edited November 2018
    aslan132 said:
    The biggest problem with making a PVE server, is that it becomes the only one. PVP servers die when PVE servers are made. 

    This just turns into a "deny players what they want" thing.

    If PvE is so vastly popular, why wouldn't you want to give the option to someone?

    PvP players will play on PvP regardless; PvE players won't give any money to you and their own population will dwindle from gankers who just want to be assholes.  Which kills entire games rather than just servers.

    That said, I played during UO and am used to Felucca rulesets.  Just stating what I saw from that particular subject.
    d_20
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  • ceratop001ceratop001 Member RarePosts: 1,594
    Open World PvP is awesome. If you can't handle it then get better organized. Quit crying and get some friends and organize a strategy to beat the PvPers. Crying babies kill games not the system. Most PvE players I run across simply don't belong in mmo's. They want their cake and eat it to. They don't want to suffer and get better. Guess what dying is good. Yes over and over repeatedly dying is good. It teaches you how to play your class.
    craftseekerKyleran[Deleted User]SlyLoK[Deleted User]PeskyKnyttaManWithNoTanSolar_ProphetGdemami
     
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,004
    One has just to look around at the most popular MMO's and see they have zones and flagging.  The only exception might be survival themed games or team based.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • TokkenTokken Member EpicPosts: 3,649
    not much stops ganking in most games........
    Kylerancraftseeker[Deleted User]d_20

    Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004!  Make PvE GREAT Again!

  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 2,193
    Optional factions. Get tired of pve and want some pvp, joins faction. Get tired of pvp and want to relax, leave the faction. 

    One server. Lots of options. 
    laserit
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,057
    edited November 2018
    Open World PvP is awesome. If you can't handle it then get better organized. Quit crying and get some friends and organize a strategy to beat the PvPers. Crying babies kill games not the system. Most PvE players I run across simply don't belong in mmo's. They want their cake and eat it to. They don't want to suffer and get better. Guess what dying is good. Yes over and over repeatedly dying is good. It teaches you how to play your class.
    Priceless.   :D 
    craftseekerceratop001KnyttaPhrySolar_Prophet

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  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,531
    ceratop001 said:
    Open World PvP is awesome. If you can't handle it then get better organized. Quit crying and get some friends and organize a strategy to beat the PvPers. Crying babies kill games not the system. Most PvE players I run across simply don't belong in mmo's. They want their cake and eat it to. They don't want to suffer and get better. Guess what dying is good. Yes over and over repeatedly dying is good. It teaches you how to play your class.
    LOL, I wonder why most players shy away from playing with PvPers...They just need to learn to enjoy the suffering!
    craftseekerKyleranPhryceratop001
  • ceratop001ceratop001 Member RarePosts: 1,594
    Rhoklaw said:
    ceratop001 said:
    Open World PvP is awesome. If you can't handle it then get better organized. Quit crying and get some friends and organize a strategy to beat the PvPers. Crying babies kill games not the system. Most PvE players I run across simply don't belong in mmo's. They want their cake and eat it to. They don't want to suffer and get better. Guess what dying is good. Yes over and over repeatedly dying is good. It teaches you how to play your class.
    DAoC has PvP that I enjoy, go figure. You don't need ganking to have enjoyable PvP, unless you're sadistic sociopath. Yes, I said it and I will continue to point that out.
    Well I am a sadistic sociopath ganker. Omg I'm exposed. *hides*
     
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Rhoklaw said:
    aslan132 said:
    The biggest problem with making a PVE server, is that it becomes the only one. PVP servers die when PVE servers are made. 
    Sounds to me like they should stop making PvP games then, if there's not enough players to support them.
    Its a numbers thing, there are enough players to support PVP games, but the bulk of the gaming community prefers PVE, if just having 2 or 300,000 players is acceptable then it can be done, a good example here would be Eve Online peak numbers for Eve were around 500,000, these days i think its less than half that, but it is a dedicated or perhaps 'hard core' community.
    If you want the 'big numbers' and here i am talking about the 1 million plus figures, then you need the PVE players too, thats also why PVE servers, if there is an option, are the most populated and often cause PVP servers to be 'depopulated', nothing is ever going to change this because it deals with the types of players that are playing the game in the first place, of course there is the whole money thing, PVE content in MMO's is far more expensive to keep on top of than PVP content, in the end it becomes a precarious juggling act where trying to keep both gaming communities happy is a never ending challenge. ;)
    Gobstopper3DManWithNoTan
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,404
    I know people like Bcbully and Ikcin equate the numbers playing MOBAs to indicate the huge popularity of PvP. I don't disagree I myself love PvP in MOBAs I play. That is because it is an even playground.That does not mean I'm going to PvP in an MMORPG .

    Problem is that it is so very easy to drive people away with poor systems. They can easily feel that the there is no hope to overcome the odds especially when the system allows groups to gang up on players and out level and out equip them. You need a good regulatory system which a lot of developers are too lazy to implement and too afraid to because it might piss of the hardcore gankers. I dislike PvP because I have never seen the fairness in it and I liked it in MOBAs and even in DAOC .

    I think DAOC was amazing because it did it a lot right. I wish more games could replicate the formula.
    d_20Kyleran
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