There are plenty of games out there. You're specifically talking about MMORPGs, but the situation they're in is the norm now. If you don't like the current norm, then you don't like MMORPGs. If you don't like MMORPGs, then play a different genre.
Wishful thinking is all well and good but neither you nor anyone else can do anything about it beyond making your own MMORPG in your own image... or start a massive boycott, one large enough to get their attention.
My point is, clearly lots of people don't mind the current situation, otherwise it wouldn't be as lucrative. Sometimes the number of people who don't like something seems large, but that's because they're spending their times shouting whereas the others are just playing their games.
The problem with the current MMORPGs isn't the current games. It's nostalgia. There is a tendency for the genre, both players and developers, to look backwards to the past.
Just like comics had a Golden Age, so did MMORPGs. However, comics eventually came to a Silver Age by rethinking many of the Golden Age tenants, not replicating them. Physical changes to paper and printing, super villains came out in force to challenge the super heroes, and the super heroes showed emotion and thought in addition to action and fighting. Comics of the 50s were failing until the revolution came to the industry, somewhat predictable and stagnant in content, but with a dwindling, but satisfied, customer base.
Right now, everyone associated with the MMORPG genre seems to be focusing on 'replication' instead of 'rethinking'. That is stifling innovation, and innovation is what the genre needs to move forward. The genre is waiting on it's Silver Age, but too few people are thinking about how to get there.
With that thinking I'd never be listening to Gesualdo or Bach or Palestrina or Ravel or Stravinsky or watching Jimmy Stewart, Cary Grant, Audrey Hepburn movies "etc, etc."
Old games are different. And they offer different experiences.
But as I said in another post, there are people who lack that axis of thinking and are more about moving forward, one and done, "been there done that now what else do you have."
Not everyone thinks that way.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Every mmorpg I played, all my guildmates are quite happy. So I think it is only this forum...
Same here, at least for right now. I'm playing Legends of Aria, were all quite happy. We found our "niche" among all the crap and really enjoying it because it's a real mmorpg. Most everyone is on Discord voice, and during the day people are helping each other achieve anything needing to be accomplished that requires help. This is the content I can do until I get of little higher level. Evening around 7pm est they have something scheduled as a guild.
It's already a large organized guild, but they are looking forward to the Steam launch soon. My goal here is helping the new Steam players in the content I'm doing now.
It's not this forum !!! Since EVERYONE is on voice and not a single one of them knows what this site is. They continuously talk about how bad all other mmorpg's suck. Infact they are completely uninformed of the progress of Pantheon.
Believe it or not I keep silent during these discussions and it's a HUGE group.
This validates everything I say, so I keep my head high as you people contradict yourselfs.
I'm playing legend of aria too... But you do realize it is very niche. Small player base right?
There simply is no point in game studio dumping much money in to this type of game. Only way games like legend of aria would survive is if they "budget" their game and don't over spent on development.
I think the sooner people realize its over the better. MMORPG was a genre built on the fantasy that multiple games could survive long term with 10+mil subscribers paying $15 monthly, because one was able to do it, and while several survive, usually relying on a famed IP to keep ticking, it was a genre built on too much required money to last, and its why its dead.
They were too expensive to make, and required such a large audience they needed to be made to make lots of gamers with different likes/dislikes happy....which is why mmorpgs went down that path to doom as time went on.
Smaller niche games built on low tech and a dream and old survivors with famed IP's are all thats left, no one is investing millions into a large or even medium budget MMORPG in the west, and eastern games are reluctant to try the west due to repeated failure.
The standoff is: everyone else went to another game type that focused directly on the MMORPG mechanics they liked, built just for that, and are able to be profitable and enjoyable....and a small crowd thinking the next big WOW is coming from a kickstarter and silver tongued developer promising the world.
Like pvp? BR/Team based shooters/MOBA all do the pvp much better than a MMORPG could, without the side fluff to slog through.
Like sandbox survival? They got heaps of those on steam, you can even keep griefers out but still retain full loot pvp with your own server, or carebear it up with buddies...man how many MMORPG players dreamed of this?
Love the story? Single player RPG will deliver a MUCH better story than any MMORPG could
Loved getting phat loot? Looter shooters/ARPG games do this much better, and without all the BS associated with MMORPG questing ect that slowed the loot. No massive try hard raids needed here so you wont need to drop 10 hrs of guild leader bossing around people...awesome (this is my favorite type)
MMORPG's were relics of the online world being new. People wanted online gaming experience and MMORPG was the only game type on the block. Now people are sick of online interactions as a whole and just because online isnt a thing anymore. SO what does MMORPG have? Nostalgia for which games are already established and what else? QUest hubs? No one liked those. Protect the farmers crops? Everyone hated that. Hell those raids are done better in monster hunter without all the BS for the few who liked those.
Lots of good memories...but MMORPG isnt coming back any time soon...if ever. Best to find a game type you like thats successful.
Err ... why would I need to care if a game is successful ?
I'm the customer, not the producer.
Do you also eat whatever food is currently popular, not the food you like best ? I couldnt care less if the rest of my country would eat at McDonalds, that food stinks, its overpriced garbage.
Likewise, I play a game if I enjoy playing it. For no other reason.
Actually I think the bigger problem going forward is that PCs used for gaming is increasingly niche and the real money is in cellphone games. Welcome to yesterday only with a little more microsoft bob.
Actually I think the bigger problem going forward is that PCs used for gaming is increasingly niche and the real money is in cellphone games. Welcome to yesterday only with a little more microsoft bob.
To me the only problem is the interface. I don’t like playing on small cell phone screens and don’t really like touch screens for most gaming. I have zero issue with the devices themselves actually and wouldn’t mind if I replaced all my gaming with a good tablet with attached monitor, keyboard and mouse.
After all they’re all computers anyway and mobile performance is getting really damn good. I’m Looking at either an iPad Pro or surface pro for art work and the only real reason I’m going with the surface pro is because the software doesn’t run in the iPad... yet.
Actually I think the bigger problem going forward is that PCs used for gaming is increasingly niche and the real money is in cellphone games. Welcome to yesterday only with a little more microsoft bob.
To me the only problem is the interface. I don’t like playing on small cell phone screens and don’t really like touch screens for most gaming. I have zero issue with the devices themselves actually and wouldn’t mind if I replaced all my gaming with a good tablet with attached monitor, keyboard and mouse.
After all they’re all computers anyway and mobile performance is getting really damn good. I’m Looking at either an iPad Pro or surface pro for art work and the only real reason I’m going with the surface pro is because the software doesn’t run in the iPad... yet.
Yeah I wish someone would come out with a good form factor mobile gaming device. Not likely to happen since PSP phone failed and sometimes things get written a little premature.
I don't want to carry accessories more than ear buds and don't want two devices.
Developers are not aiming at devices to make gaming better,they are aiming at $$$,sooner people realize it,then perhaps they will start using better judgement before handing over money to LAZY game designs. It is EASY to get better games,stop paying for shitty ones.All of those/these BR games released with ONE map,if that is not the laziest cheapest effort i have ever seen from a studio then idk what is. I should of course make note that Fortnite was not a BR and was suppose to be a full rpg game.Which reaffirms what i said,studios are not in this to make you a better game,if they see an EASY buck to be made switching over to BR,they will as we also noticed that other rpg doing the same thing. People wanted Blizzard to improve their games like HOTS and now HS community ios complaining a lot and losing a lot of players so what does Blizzard do,they REMOVE their spending on the Esport side of things,they send out a QA to some players asking if they cared about esport.
LAZIER and less cost is what dev studios are aiming for,the top paid execs making 2-25+ million a year have to show constant big profits or their boss/investors start complaining.So if people open their eyes...wake up,these studios are giving us ZERO indication they want to improve gaming.Geesh look at Blizzard yet again,let's not improve Diablo that made us MILLIONS,let's turn it into a cheap ass micro-transaction mobile game.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Developers are not aiming at devices to make gaming better,they are aiming at $$$,sooner people realize it,then perhaps they will start using better judgement before handing over money to LAZY game designs. It is EASY to get better games,stop paying for shitty ones.All of those/these BR games released with ONE map,if that is not the laziest cheapest effort i have ever seen from a studio then idk what is. I should of course make note that Fortnite was not a BR and was suppose to be a full rpg game.Which reaffirms what i said,studios are not in this to make you a better game,if they see an EASY buck to be made switching over to BR,they will as we also noticed that other rpg doing the same thing. People wanted Blizzard to improve their games like HOTS and now HS community ios complaining a lot and losing a lot of players so what does Blizzard do,they REMOVE their spending on the Esport side of things,they send out a QA to some players asking if they cared about esport.
LAZIER and less cost is what dev studios are aiming for,the top paid execs making 2-25+ million a year have to show constant big profits or their boss/investors start complaining.So if people open their eyes...wake up,these studios are giving us ZERO indication they want to improve gaming.Geesh look at Blizzard yet again,let's not improve Diablo that made us MILLIONS,let's turn it into a cheap ass micro-transaction mobile game.
You waste so much time complaining on these forums. Most people here are pc gamers and most posts are about looking for better games. It’s like you are screaming looking for validation or something. Go to a mobile game forum and complain. Go anywhere but here.
Developers are not aiming at devices to make gaming better,they are aiming at $$$,sooner people realize it,then perhaps they will start using better judgement before handing over money to LAZY game designs. It is EASY to get better games,stop paying for shitty ones.All of those/these BR games released with ONE map,if that is not the laziest cheapest effort i have ever seen from a studio then idk what is. I should of course make note that Fortnite was not a BR and was suppose to be a full rpg game.Which reaffirms what i said,studios are not in this to make you a better game,if they see an EASY buck to be made switching over to BR,they will as we also noticed that other rpg doing the same thing. People wanted Blizzard to improve their games like HOTS and now HS community ios complaining a lot and losing a lot of players so what does Blizzard do,they REMOVE their spending on the Esport side of things,they send out a QA to some players asking if they cared about esport.
LAZIER and less cost is what dev studios are aiming for,the top paid execs making 2-25+ million a year have to show constant big profits or their boss/investors start complaining.So if people open their eyes...wake up,these studios are giving us ZERO indication they want to improve gaming.Geesh look at Blizzard yet again,let's not improve Diablo that made us MILLIONS,let's turn it into a cheap ass micro-transaction mobile game.
They are making games people will play. Just happens that players will play these games.
You make it seem as if we stop buying or playing these games the other 100 million who enjoy the games will stop.
I mean, hell I have had issues with the genre being themepark since the WoW clone era started. This place used to be hostile to the idea of sandboxes and moving away from quest grinds.
You make some good points, but at the end of the day, the Golden Rule, remains the Golden Rule..."Those who have the Gold, make the Rules" Be it EA or Activision, too many suits tends to ruin a game. At least from the gamers perspective. But suits are playing to investors, not gamers in the first place. That having been said, Apex Legends shows that good games can be made in spite of suits.
It boils down to this. No one is happy. A select few have their niche game for the time being (ESO,WoW,FF14,GW2) but all-in-all take that game away their back in the pool with the rest of us.
It all comes down to money. I started with wanting a monthly fee, then realized it's all bad.
Standoff: -MAXIMUM PROFIT (company) -Good wholesome game (player)
I took the Liberty to find this: Wholesome- Somebody who is pure of heart, devoid of corruption or malice, modest, stable, virtuous, and all-around sweet and compassionate....... This is what we want in a game..... This will not come from Triple A.... Never !!
I want a monthly fee but their is "some golden rules attached". - The game has to have a long run never ending cycle of entertainment to it. Obviously the player will get tired of it, but the potential has to be their. - The company or developer needs to re-invest proceeds. It seems they are unwilling to do that other than fixing mandatory bugs. Instead they spit out expansions and sell their game to the player all over again.
Unfortunately both golden rules are not even a thought, but instead maximum profit.
WITH MAXIMUM PROFIT BEING THE COMPANIES GOAL. THIS LEAVES THE MMORPG PLAYER WITH ALL BAD OPTIONS.
A word for the optimist: You opinion can't count. Go ahead and eat your spoiled tuna sandwich and not complain
For profit games are for profit. This has always been and will always be so. That isn't inherently a matter of standoff, but is inherently the foundation of gaming. Without profit few games if any would be made. With no or few games available there will be no to few players. Companies may differ as to the amount of profit they expect but it will never be none for a game with ongoing costs and with the intention to expand, which applies to all MMORPGs.
Expansions are reinvestment. They cost money to make. This money comes from previous earnings once the game is well established. Did you think they periodically appeared as if from nowhere and at no cost to the company, as though they were crafted by expansion faeries? Further, without expansion where would the never ending cycle of entertainment come from?
They tend to be similar to what came before because it is what was bought into by their players to begin with. There will be some tweaking here and that, but ultimately they are likely going to be quite recognizable when compared to the past. If expansions were radically different one to the next the risk of player loss would be fairly high I imagine, as it would soon lose much of what drew players in originally.
Your "golden rules" count, because following them helps to maximize profits. That is why most MMORPGs try to be fun (with varied success) and release expansions over time if still live (to varied reception.) Without some profit expectation for these things they wouldn't be done.
Opinion counts, in that it helps a person decide where to spend their money and time, so they can derive the greatest amount of benefit for that investment. It is of course irrelevant when it comes to the issue of profit driven gaming. It has always been and will always be so.
It boils down to this. No one is happy. A select few have their niche game for the time being (ESO,WoW,FF14,GW2) but all-in-all take that game away their back in the pool with the rest of us.
It all comes down to money. I started with wanting a monthly fee, then realized it's all bad.
Standoff: -MAXIMUM PROFIT (company) -Good wholesome game (player)
I took the Liberty to find this: Wholesome- Somebody who is pure of heart, devoid of corruption or malice, modest, stable, virtuous, and all-around sweet and compassionate....... This is what we want in a game..... This will not come from Triple A.... Never !!
I want a monthly fee but their is "some golden rules attached". - The game has to have a long run never ending cycle of entertainment to it. Obviously the player will get tired of it, but the potential has to be their. - The company or developer needs to re-invest proceeds. It seems they are unwilling to do that other than fixing mandatory bugs. Instead they spit out expansions and sell their game to the player all over again.
Unfortunately both golden rules are not even a thought, but instead maximum profit.
WITH MAXIMUM PROFIT BEING THE COMPANIES GOAL. THIS LEAVES THE MMORPG PLAYER WITH ALL BAD OPTIONS.
A word for the optimist: You opinion can't count. Go ahead and eat your spoiled tuna sandwich and not complain
For profit games are for profit. This has always been and will always be so. That isn't inherently a matter of standoff, but is inherently the foundation of gaming. Without profit few games if any would be made. With no or few games available there will be no to few players. Companies may differ as to the amount of profit they expect but it will never be none for a game with ongoing costs and with the intention to expand, which applies to all MMORPGs.
Expansions are reinvestment. They cost money to make. This money comes from previous earnings once the game is well established. Did you think they periodically appeared as if from nowhere and at no cost to the company, as though they were crafted by expansion faeries? Further, without expansion where would the never ending cycle of entertainment come from?
They tend to be similar to what came before because it is what was bought into by their players to begin with. There will be some tweaking here and that, but ultimately they are likely going to be quite recognizable when compared to the past. If expansions were radically different one to the next the risk of player loss would be fairly high I imagine, as it would soon lose much of what drew players in originally.
Your "golden rules" count, because following them helps to maximize profits. That is why most MMORPGs try to be fun (with varied success) and release expansions over time if still live (to varied reception.) Without some profit expectation for these things they wouldn't be done.
Opinion counts, in that it helps a person decide where to spend their money and time, so they can derive the greatest amount of benefit for that investment. It is of course irrelevant when it comes to the issue of profit driven gaming. It has always been and will always be so.
This is a very safe post, It tells us how a business works and stays afloat making a profit along the way.... So thank you for that.
However, what I'm saying is : WITH MAXIMUM PROFIT BEING THE COMPANIES GOAL. THIS LEAVES THE MMORPG PLAYER WITH ALL BAD OPTIONS..... I would like to stress the word "maximum".... Infact too much maximum.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This is a very safe post, It tells us how a business works and stays afloat making a profit along the way.... So thank you for that.
However, what I'm saying is : WITH MAXIMUM PROFIT BEING THE COMPANIES GOAL. THIS LEAVES THE MMORPG PLAYER WITH ALL BAD OPTIONS..... I would like to stress the word "maximum".... Infact too much maximum.
It's not a safe post, it's a completely accurate post. Maximum profit is always a company's goal.
How they get there is another thing.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
you dont agree? vote with your wallet then because they have zero shit to give about people thumping their feet on the floor screaming about eeevil companies making p2w mmos if thats the business model that is profitable
you dont agree? vote with your wallet then because they have zero shit to give about people thumping their feet on the floor screaming about eeevil companies making p2w mmos if thats the business model that is profitable
The wallet wars have been lost. Significant spending now is in the thousands per month. They don't care if you spend little to nothing.
Comments
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
There simply is no point in game studio dumping much money in to this type of game. Only way games like legend of aria would survive is if they "budget" their game and don't over spent on development.
They were too expensive to make, and required such a large audience they needed to be made to make lots of gamers with different likes/dislikes happy....which is why mmorpgs went down that path to doom as time went on.
Smaller niche games built on low tech and a dream and old survivors with famed IP's are all thats left, no one is investing millions into a large or even medium budget MMORPG in the west, and eastern games are reluctant to try the west due to repeated failure.
The standoff is: everyone else went to another game type that focused directly on the MMORPG mechanics they liked, built just for that, and are able to be profitable and enjoyable....and a small crowd thinking the next big WOW is coming from a kickstarter and silver tongued developer promising the world.
Like pvp? BR/Team based shooters/MOBA all do the pvp much better than a MMORPG could, without the side fluff to slog through.
Like sandbox survival? They got heaps of those on steam, you can even keep griefers out but still retain full loot pvp with your own server, or carebear it up with buddies...man how many MMORPG players dreamed of this?
Love the story? Single player RPG will deliver a MUCH better story than any MMORPG could
Loved getting phat loot? Looter shooters/ARPG games do this much better, and without all the BS associated with MMORPG questing ect that slowed the loot. No massive try hard raids needed here so you wont need to drop 10 hrs of guild leader bossing around people...awesome (this is my favorite type)
MMORPG's were relics of the online world being new. People wanted online gaming experience and MMORPG was the only game type on the block. Now people are sick of online interactions as a whole and just because online isnt a thing anymore. SO what does MMORPG have? Nostalgia for which games are already established and what else? QUest hubs? No one liked those. Protect the farmers crops? Everyone hated that. Hell those raids are done better in monster hunter without all the BS for the few who liked those.
Lots of good memories...but MMORPG isnt coming back any time soon...if ever. Best to find a game type you like thats successful.
After all they’re all computers anyway and mobile performance is getting really damn good. I’m Looking at either an iPad Pro or surface pro for art work and the only real reason I’m going with the surface pro is because the software doesn’t run in the iPad... yet.
I don't want to carry accessories more than ear buds and don't want two devices.
It is EASY to get better games,stop paying for shitty ones.All of those/these BR games released with ONE map,if that is not the laziest cheapest effort i have ever seen from a studio then idk what is.
I should of course make note that Fortnite was not a BR and was suppose to be a full rpg game.Which reaffirms what i said,studios are not in this to make you a better game,if they see an EASY buck to be made switching over to BR,they will as we also noticed that other rpg doing the same thing.
People wanted Blizzard to improve their games like HOTS and now HS community ios complaining a lot and losing a lot of players so what does Blizzard do,they REMOVE their spending on the Esport side of things,they send out a QA to some players asking if they cared about esport.
LAZIER and less cost is what dev studios are aiming for,the top paid execs making 2-25+ million a year have to show constant big profits or their boss/investors start complaining.So if people open their eyes...wake up,these studios are giving us ZERO indication they want to improve gaming.Geesh look at Blizzard yet again,let's not improve Diablo that made us MILLIONS,let's turn it into a cheap ass micro-transaction mobile game.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
You waste so much time complaining on these forums. Most people here are pc gamers and most posts are about looking for better games. It’s like you are screaming looking for validation or something. Go to a mobile game forum and complain. Go anywhere but here.
You make it seem as if we stop buying or playing these games the other 100 million who enjoy the games will stop.
I mean, hell I have had issues with the genre being themepark since the WoW clone era started. This place used to be hostile to the idea of sandboxes and moving away from quest grinds.
Expansions are reinvestment. They cost money to make. This money comes from previous earnings once the game is well established. Did you think they periodically appeared as if from nowhere and at no cost to the company, as though they were crafted by expansion faeries? Further, without expansion where would the never ending cycle of entertainment come from?
They tend to be similar to what came before because it is what was bought into by their players to begin with. There will be some tweaking here and that, but ultimately they are likely going to be quite recognizable when compared to the past. If expansions were radically different one to the next the risk of player loss would be fairly high I imagine, as it would soon lose much of what drew players in originally.
Your "golden rules" count, because following them helps to maximize profits. That is why most MMORPGs try to be fun (with varied success) and release expansions over time if still live (to varied reception.) Without some profit expectation for these things they wouldn't be done.
Opinion counts, in that it helps a person decide where to spend their money and time, so they can derive the greatest amount of benefit for that investment. It is of course irrelevant when it comes to the issue of profit driven gaming. It has always been and will always be so.
It tells us how a business works and stays afloat making a profit along the way.... So thank you for that.
However, what I'm saying is :
WITH MAXIMUM PROFIT BEING THE COMPANIES GOAL. THIS LEAVES THE MMORPG PLAYER WITH ALL BAD OPTIONS..... I would like to stress the word "maximum".... Infact too much maximum.
And the mmorpg with large population wow/eso etc, have resonable cashshop.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo