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Should game journalists be subjected to law and game companies anti-bribary??

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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited March 2019
    Wargfoot said:
    ^--- half the internet is like: "OMG, HE TOOK AWAY MY WILL.  I'M A DRONE AND MUST BUY MEDIEVAL ORC MINING TODAY."
    If you're going to be intentionally misleading in describing the game because you're getting paid...  Well honestly, you'd deserve the internet skewering.


    Nobody cares if you warn us.  No one wants to hear shitty, fake takes.  Period.  Waste of bandwidth.
    GdemamibrandedwolfSBFordHatefull

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  • alkarionlogalkarionlog Member EpicPosts: 3,584
    Wargfoot said:
    TimEisen said:
    Social stuff is all a work and they get held to zero accountability.
    If someone is paid to play a game and they hype the game what accountability do you think that requires?  Bear in mind that my follow up questions are going to be along the lines of how this would be different than any other type of advertising.

    Even at that, a streamer is going to be giving you an in depth look into the product before you buy.  He can praise the graphics and game play all he wants but as long as he's showing me the product I'm pretty sure I can look past the BS and decide for myself.

    Are people here not familiar with the concept of marketing/advertising?

    This whole thread strikes me as really odd.
    none, hence why most people here ignore reviews and just come to use the forums

    you as a sane person should ignore reviews, why both you and me know they will be based on bad taste, or inability to play(hence why I can't stand watching poeple play, most are awfull), or even worse lying because they was paid to give a nice review
    Gdemamibrandedwolf
    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
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    edited March 2019
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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Wargfoot said:
    Wargfoot said:
    TimEisen said:
    Social stuff is all a work and they get held to zero accountability.
    If someone is paid to play a game and they hype the game what accountability do you think that requires?  Bear in mind that my follow up questions are going to be along the lines of how this would be different than any other type of advertising.

    Even at that, a streamer is going to be giving you an in depth look into the product before you buy.  He can praise the graphics and game play all he wants but as long as he's showing me the product I'm pretty sure I can look past the BS and decide for myself.

    Are people here not familiar with the concept of marketing/advertising?

    This whole thread strikes me as really odd.
    People are aware, but take your logic to the extreme...
    You put the rebuttal to your post in the opening line.
    Most things break down at the extreme.... which is why it is qualified with the word 'extreme'.





    The principle holds.  Qualifying a behavior by implying folks shouldn't fall prey to it, as a solution to the issue, is the very definition of victim blaming.

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  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    edited March 2019
    Amathe said:
    So you want gaming website reviewers to have to buy every game and every product they review? Seems a bit harsh. And impractical. 
    Yes , and i think they should be required to put there home address at the end of each article
    PhryLinif
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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Wargfoot said:
    Wargfoot said:
    Wargfoot said:
    TimEisen said:
    Social stuff is all a work and they get held to zero accountability.
    If someone is paid to play a game and they hype the game what accountability do you think that requires?  Bear in mind that my follow up questions are going to be along the lines of how this would be different than any other type of advertising.

    Even at that, a streamer is going to be giving you an in depth look into the product before you buy.  He can praise the graphics and game play all he wants but as long as he's showing me the product I'm pretty sure I can look past the BS and decide for myself.

    Are people here not familiar with the concept of marketing/advertising?

    This whole thread strikes me as really odd.
    People are aware, but take your logic to the extreme...
    You put the rebuttal to your post in the opening line.
    Most things break down at the extreme.... which is why it is qualified with the word 'extreme'.

    The principle holds.  Qualifying a behavior by implying folks shouldn't fall prey to it, as a solution to the issue, is the very definition of victim blaming.
    #1: You haven't established that a kid receiving money to promote a game is wrong.
    I'm pretty sure marketing is legal - comparing it to illegal activity at a party is off the hook.

    #2: Victim Blaming
    I don't believe that a person being a victim makes them instantly blameless.  It isn't an either/or zero sum game.  If you live in a world where "Buyer Beware" is a catch phrase and make purchases based on a biased review you may be a victim and an idiot at the same time.  
    And nothing about folks being an idiot means it's any more acceptable for someone to misrepresent to that person for personal gain.

    Accepting money to stream isn't the same as misrepresenting the product.  Misrepresenting the product is wrong, not being paid to stream a game.  The act of merely streaming the game doesn't attempt to directly persuade anyone to do anything.  Misrepresenting the experience by, say, attempting to falsely explain away or egregiously minimize faults, or making inaccurate comparisons to competitors' titles to attempt to persuade the audience those titles are inferior?  That's misrepresentation for financial gain.  That's wrong.  That's also completely legal here in America to a ludicrous degree.
    SBFord

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  • AstropuyoAstropuyo Member RarePosts: 2,178
    Yeah so basically if someone is stupid I can bilk them and it's morally correct. By the logic of buyer beware.

    No doubt consumers are dumb but you know what doesn't help? Marketing layers that are used to engage absolute bullshit to sell packages of the next shitty royale game.

    It may not be illegal but it lacks ethics which is fine honestly I mean look at this site. They tried to sell us VPN protection on the account of "DDOS" attacks. That being said the entire industry is trashy. It's actually worse than Adserver type marketing.


    Ir's like the 80's again with game crashes like it even feels the same the only difference is we  can actively watch and discuss it from the far ranges of the net.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited March 2019
    Astropuyo said:
    Yeah so basically if someone is stupid I can bilk them and it's morally correct. By the logic of buyer beware.

    No doubt consumers are dumb but you know what doesn't help? Marketing layers that are used to engage absolute bullshit to sell packages of the next shitty royale game.

    It may not be illegal but it lacks ethics which is fine honestly I mean look at this site. They tried to sell us VPN protection on the account of "DDOS" attacks. That being said the entire industry is trashy. It's actually worse than Adserver type marketing.


    Ir's like the 80's again with game crashes like it even feels the same the only difference is we  can actively watch and discuss it from the far ranges of the net.
    Your second sentence is what I'm trying to convey, too.

    You can both call on fellow consumers to be more prudent while condemning shitty marketing practices just the same.  They aren't mutually exclusive.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say the two don't interact in any way in terms of ethical or practical acceptability.


    EDIT- @Wargfoot just saw your post about the laws limiting speech, and I understand your sentiment.  However, fraudulent speech aimed at misleading others for financial gain isn't speech worth protecting, much like blackmail or other forms of unprotected speech.

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  • SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
    @wargfoot Please refrain from multiple posts in a row. 
    brandedwolf


    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 


  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,070
    SBFord said:
    @wargfoot Please refrain from multiple posts in a row. 
    Wait, what?  It's against the rules to do multiple posts in a row? 

    Oops.  :*

    /ducks.


    Phry

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Kyleran said:
    SBFord said:
    @wargfoot Please refrain from multiple posts in a row. 
    Wait, what?  It's against the rules to do multiple posts in a row? 

    Oops.  :*

    /ducks.


    I try to avoid it whenever I can, but man oh man, it can be hard to do so when posting from one's phone..
    Hatefull

    image
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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited March 2019
    Wargfoot said:
    Okay, the problem statement in the OP is that games get misrepresented.
    I agree that happens and I agree that it shouldn't happen.

    Given the current environment and my personal level of power (I have no political power) the best I can offer is to make use of several reviews and, if possible, buy through a store that will refund your money upon request.  Above all else, "Buyer Beware" - that phrase doesn't make the conmen right, rather, it acknowledges they exist.

    ^--- That is solid advice for the current environment in which we find ourselves.  If you ignore that advice, in my honest estimation, the conman is still wrong but his dishonesty doesn't make you any less an idiot.

    And Frenchie, thanks for recognizing my fundamental concern.  I'd rather not get the government involved when the consumer has the tools to handle the problem him/herself.  Maybe getting burned on a game will teach a life lesson that will come in handy for when purchases really get expensive.
    I agree with your assessment of the current situation.  And I see what you mean reference using the phrase "buyer beware."

    I agree; most consumers should be more prudent.  But getting something like a consumer base to do something consistently is like, as they say, "herding cats."  Only, these cats live hundreds or thousands of miles apart and have never met one another.  You even put such cats in the same room, you risk altercations between felines.

    I don't advocate government involvement out of a naive belief the government has its citizens good in mind 100% of the time.  Rather, out of practicality: consumers won't organize themselves in any meaningful way, so if our true goal is to eliminate both the conman and the conned, approaching it via government intervention seems to be the most realistic way to go about it.

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  • SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
    Kyleran said:
    SBFord said:
    @wargfoot Please refrain from multiple posts in a row. 
    Wait, what?  It's against the rules to do multiple posts in a row? 

    Oops.  :*

    /ducks.


    Well a couple ... like TWO ... in a row is OK. 3 or 4 or 10 is not. :P

    *files Kyleran's name away in the Watch Files*
    PhrybrandedwolfGrunty[Deleted User][Deleted User]Hatefull


    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 


  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,507
    A good review of a game that isn't terrible will explain game mechanics well enough to simultaneously consider some readers that the game is worth looking into and other readers that they should ignore the game.  If you look at a review and the only thing you take away from it is the overall score, you're doing it wrong.
    AlBQuirky
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  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    Linif said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Linif said:
    TimEisen said:
    Linif said:
    As far as I'm concerned, they are subject to law and so are companies... it's just a matter of proving it? 
    I don't think so, otherwise social media would collapse over night. I mean, when you see a famous or even semi famous/lots of followers person on the net, every inch of what you are seeing and the camera filming it, are given to the person for free to "review" them. Then there are the straight up paid plugs but those fall under "advertising".
    I don't believe that if social media was subject to law etc, it'd collapse. Correct me if I'm wrong but someone has to actually report the law being broken in these cases for the law to get involved, unless there's an entity of the law policing these things.

    They're subject to the laws, but only if someone points the law at them?
    So a reviewer who disagrees with your own opinion should be held responsible to laws? It matters not "why" they disagree. It only matters they do, right?

    A reviewer says a game gets 4.5 stars out 5. Does that make it a fact, or is it their opinion? How about movie reviewers? Automotive reviewers? Restaurant reviewers?

    In my opinion, opinions should never be regulated :)
    No, no. That's not what I'm saying at all. Disagreeing with something someone says doesn't mean either party has broken the law in any way shape or form. I thought this discussion was about journalists taking bribes and the like to advertise games in a positive light?

    I fear I may have missed the original point of this thread :S
    You read it right. I twisted it a bit to make my point. Sorry about that :)

    Why does it matter if reviewers take money/gifts/bribes or not? Does it sway your own buying decisions, or is this more of a "looking out for the stupid people" kind of thing?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    TEKK3N said:
    To be honest I don't think most journalists are bribed.
    I would say they are biased.
    The thought that a certain company might stop advertising on your website would be enough to add 1 or 2 extra points to the overall score of a game.
    I don't believe in blatant bribery in most cases.
    Well, reviews (opinions) by their very nature are biased, either for, against, or indifferent :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    edited March 2019
    EDIT- @Wargfoot just saw your post about the laws limiting speech, and I understand your sentiment.  However, fraudulent speech aimed at misleading others for financial gain isn't speech worth protecting, much like blackmail or other forms of unprotected speech.
    Which are duly covered by libel and slander laws, already in place. There are even false advertising laws that never get enforced.

    It amazes me how quick people say, "We need a law for this!", when in fact, we just have to enforce the laws already in place. Opinions are protected by the first amendment of the US Constitution. Right, wrong, inflammatory, or otherwise.

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
    [Deleted User]Gdemami

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • LinifLinif Member UncommonPosts: 340
    AlBQuirky said:
    Linif said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Linif said:
    TimEisen said:
    Linif said:
    As far as I'm concerned, they are subject to law and so are companies... it's just a matter of proving it? 
    I don't think so, otherwise social media would collapse over night. I mean, when you see a famous or even semi famous/lots of followers person on the net, every inch of what you are seeing and the camera filming it, are given to the person for free to "review" them. Then there are the straight up paid plugs but those fall under "advertising".
    I don't believe that if social media was subject to law etc, it'd collapse. Correct me if I'm wrong but someone has to actually report the law being broken in these cases for the law to get involved, unless there's an entity of the law policing these things.

    They're subject to the laws, but only if someone points the law at them?
    So a reviewer who disagrees with your own opinion should be held responsible to laws? It matters not "why" they disagree. It only matters they do, right?

    A reviewer says a game gets 4.5 stars out 5. Does that make it a fact, or is it their opinion? How about movie reviewers? Automotive reviewers? Restaurant reviewers?

    In my opinion, opinions should never be regulated :)
    No, no. That's not what I'm saying at all. Disagreeing with something someone says doesn't mean either party has broken the law in any way shape or form. I thought this discussion was about journalists taking bribes and the like to advertise games in a positive light?

    I fear I may have missed the original point of this thread :S
    You read it right. I twisted it a bit to make my point. Sorry about that :)

    Why does it matter if reviewers take money/gifts/bribes or not? Does it sway your own buying decisions, or is this more of a "looking out for the stupid people" kind of thing?
    I'd say it only matters to those that care whether the review is genuine or not. Personally I take everything I read with a grain of salt, but even then I can be susceptible to hype, Fallout 76 was a brutal reminder (First game preordered in years...).

    The law is pretty clear with regards to bribery. Taking anything of value or gaining an advantage for performing your job improperly is against the law. Now, whether or not someone can prove they've done that or cares enough to prove it/report it is another story. I can't imagine may people would take it that seriously but I've been surprised before, however it doesn't change the fact that it's illegal.

    Naturally, there's a lot of grey area. So strictly speaking, if a reviewer receives financial compensation to deliberately give a good review, then that is bribery and therefore illegal. (Fact check me if anyone can be bothered, but I'm confident that's how it works?)

    If you haven't already guessed though, I am in no way, shape or form a lawyer or in a law-based job, my information comes from the brief research I've done and what I think is clear logic. If you haven't already, take it with a healthy dose of salt :P
    Gdemami
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