The questions about the ease of finding one spot and staying there to top level have not been answered. Yes, it is possible to do the same thing in a MMO which is not scaled and "move on every seven levels." But that is surely better than not having to move at all?
I'm not a grinder so I find leveling via either scaled or non scaled grinding a soul-crushing bore. I do it slower with more variety: questing, PvP and 4-man dungeons roughly in equal parts.
But dedicated grinders don't seem to give much of a crap about variety. For months their preferred, recommended level and Champion point grinding method was to go into one instance in Craglorn, Skyreach, over and over and over again and go nowhere else.
The reason you think moving every 7 levels is preferable is because you're probably not a grinder either.
But that's neither here nor there. Scorch has posted numerous times in this thread that scaling makes ESO easier. It doesn't. AOE grinding huge pulls has always been THE grinding method - scaling or no scaling. The moving every 7 levels bit to grinders also wasn't a matter of aesthetics but of efficiency based on XP per kill because that's how grinders roll.
I don't know when he started playing but I'm starting to suspect (based also on his low CP points in the 450 range) that he actually never played before October 2016 which is when the full level scaling was introduced (DLC zones like Orsinium, Dark Brotherhood and Thieve's Guild always had the exact same type of level scaling the whole world got with One Tamriel) so he has no first hand knowledge of how equally easy that was.
For me unless you have a method to stop getting too much xp from one zone, scaling seems too open to abuse. The thing is that sort of idea could have been introduced into MMOs which are not scaled, but to my knowledge it never has been, so they will never put it into a scaled MMO either.
Are you feeling it is more difficult, locusts aside for those of us who play the way the game was meant to be played thats the crux for most players.
You mean aside from already existing scaling xp rewards in relation to mob difficulty, xp bonus/decay, first time completion and achievement bonuses, and better locations to move to when you have a better geared/statted char that all serves as a reason to move from one spot to the next?
It's not like things aren't there. Ya gotta be willing to sacrifice efficiency for the sake of laziness to stick to a single area for grinding.
You seem to think that if something is done one way in a MMO it will always be done that way, experience shows us that is not the case. Either that or you think I am just talking about the specific case of ESO here? How does the xp bonus/decay work, I don't think that was in when I was in ESO, but then it has been more than a while.
That more seemed to be your problem. Point in case, the two posts of yours just above this one where you make the generalization about sticking to zones and then throw away a bunch of mechanics because "to my knowledge it never has been".
You keep making comments of "this doesn't exist" or characterizing scaling or otherwise to operate in a particular way even though we have examples at this point of a variety of different ways in which these mechanics have been implemented.
When we have gone out of our way to provide variety in examples, how do you even think you can get away with that bogus argument?
And how do you think bonus xp/xp decay works? Down time = recuperate a bonus to xp gained, doing things depletes that pool. And that was only one of multiple things mentioned as it acts alongside the likes of first time and achievement bonuses.
On the face of it the game has scaling by the dumper truck load!
It scales mobs in missions to the lead characters level; caveat missions are in level ranges; it scales other team members to the level of the lead character - up and down; and it scales the number of mobs to the number of members in a party. It also scales the experience with the size of the team as well.
And from 1-50 the level jumps are huge - way beyond EQ1 / WoW. Nothing squished about CoX. let alone the squished nature of e.g. ESO. 3 levels is a huge jump so if you want to grind you will need to move around more frequently. It also has pretty significant jumps in mob variants as well - from minion to arch-bosses.
At this point I should say its still great fun! With team missions often hectic and frantic. And lots of whacky story arcs.
So is CoX a poster child of a traditional scaled game? On the face of it absolutely.
Throughout its history though the max character level never changed. It was 50 when it launched and it was 50 when it the game was closed. And it doesn't take that long to get to level 50 - a few weeks casual or much, much quicker if you want to power level.
So on the face of it progression stops? The mobs are always the same level when you hit 50, you never gain any levels ... dot ..... dot .... dot
Its a totally different game and yet - in many ways - it has features that have been touched on above. There are easy level X mobs and there are really, really hard level X mobs. And the locations have an impact as well.
Progression - well lets call it "gear progression". Actually enchantments which vary level, type, how many stats they boost and then there are sets which have extra boosts.
Where it gets complicated though is that the bonuses these impact apply very directly to your build. There are thousands of builds btw. And yet because some builds are inherently weak (or strong) to some types of mob .... so it gets interesting. (There are badges as well which can provide extra bonuses but think of those as another item of gear you have or you don't.)
And then you put it all into the mission scaling system in which you are just one bod in a larger group and - as I said above frantic!
It "works" though.
And underline that scaling can be done very differently.
And its currently available for all to try. And it case you have missed it you need to
Yeah it's a strong example of horizontal progression taking precedence in the long-term over the vertical. While CoX has vertical progression, and some relatively harsh vertical progression, they scale so many things around it that they instead drop the relevance of those power shifts to focus on making progression and difficulty pushed through more distinct mobs, mob tiers, and subsequent variety to both type and severity of a challenge.
And that ending up being a bit focus on the difference in design for such a system. When the progression takes more precedence in how you're slotting skills and what kind of incarnate abilities you're stacking into your setup, it's things done to hone a character for specific challenges.
On the face of it the game has scaling by the dumper truck load!
It scales mobs in missions to the lead characters level; caveat missions are in level ranges; it scales other team members to the level of the lead character - up and down; and it scales the number of mobs to the number of members in a party. It also scales the experience with the size of the team as well.
And from 1-50 the level jumps are huge - way beyond EQ1 / WoW. Nothing squished about CoX. let alone the squished nature of e.g. ESO. 3 levels is a huge jump so if you want to grind you will need to move around more frequently. It also has pretty significant jumps in mob variants as well - from minion to arch-bosses.
At this point I should say its still great fun! With team missions often hectic and frantic. And lots of whacky story arcs.
So is CoX a poster child of a traditional scaled game? On the face of it absolutely.
Throughout its history though the max character level never changed. It was 50 when it launched and it was 50 when it the game was closed. And it doesn't take that long to get to level 50 - a few weeks casual or much, much quicker if you want to power level.
So on the face of it progression stops? The mobs are always the same level when you hit 50, you never gain any levels ... dot ..... dot .... dot
Its a totally different game and yet - in many ways - it has features that have been touched on above. There are easy level X mobs and there are really, really hard level X mobs. And the locations have an impact as well.
Progression - well lets call it "gear progression". Actually enchantments which vary level, type, how many stats they boost and then there are sets which have extra boosts.
Where it gets complicated though is that the bonuses these impact apply very directly to your build. There are thousands of builds btw. And yet because some builds are inherently weak (or strong) to some types of mob .... so it gets interesting. (There are badges as well which can provide extra bonuses but think of those as another item of gear you have or you don't.)
And then you put it all into the mission scaling system in which you are just one bod in a larger group and - as I said above frantic!
It "works" though.
And underline that scaling can be done very differently.
And its currently available for all to try. And it case you have missed it you need to
Except you can control how much it' scalesu or down. That can be done in group or solo even activities scheduled for different group sizes or solo sizes (example you are as good as two or three people together). and you can control whether there's Arch Gillian's or bosses in most missions.
that level of control is an excellent way to do scaling. And the key is the world is not scaled. So you'll eventually become more powerful than all the mobs in atlas park, King's row, steel canyon...
Scaled instances under my control sure that's great, scaled world no thanks not interested.
Just give the player the choice to scale down to that level zone or not.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Would be curious the relevancy/impact of the overworld of CoH not scaling, given most mission activities take place within the instanced content, the only real reason you interact with overland mobs is generally because of TFs, meaning you are generally at or above level for any given zone any ways. Them not having scaling just kinda becomes a superfluous factor at that point.
Kinda sounds like the same results as, y'know, scaling the game world so generic/trash mobs are generally at a mid-to-low range for challenge once specced, with specific areas having tougher mobs/world bosses, and then other instanced content having the broader scope.
On the face of it the game has scaling by the dumper truck load!
It scales mobs in missions to the lead characters level; caveat missions are in level ranges; it scales other team members to the level of the lead character - up and down; and it scales the number of mobs to the number of members in a party. It also scales the experience with the size of the team as well.
And from 1-50 the level jumps are huge - way beyond EQ1 / WoW. Nothing squished about CoX. let alone the squished nature of e.g. ESO. 3 levels is a huge jump so if you want to grind you will need to move around more frequently. It also has pretty significant jumps in mob variants as well - from minion to arch-bosses.
At this point I should say its still great fun! With team missions often hectic and frantic. And lots of whacky story arcs.
So is CoX a poster child of a traditional scaled game? On the face of it absolutely.
Throughout its history though the max character level never changed. It was 50 when it launched and it was 50 when it the game was closed. And it doesn't take that long to get to level 50 - a few weeks casual or much, much quicker if you want to power level.
So on the face of it progression stops? The mobs are always the same level when you hit 50, you never gain any levels ... dot ..... dot .... dot
Its a totally different game and yet - in many ways - it has features that have been touched on above. There are easy level X mobs and there are really, really hard level X mobs. And the locations have an impact as well.
Progression - well lets call it "gear progression". Actually enchantments which vary level, type, how many stats they boost and then there are sets which have extra boosts.
Where it gets complicated though is that the bonuses these impact apply very directly to your build. There are thousands of builds btw. And yet because some builds are inherently weak (or strong) to some types of mob .... so it gets interesting. (There are badges as well which can provide extra bonuses but think of those as another item of gear you have or you don't.)
And then you put it all into the mission scaling system in which you are just one bod in a larger group and - as I said above frantic!
It "works" though.
And underline that scaling can be done very differently.
And its currently available for all to try. And it case you have missed it you need to
Except you can control how much it' scalesu or down. That can be done in group or solo even activities scheduled for different group sizes or solo sizes (example you are as good as two or three people together). and you can control whether there's Arch Gillian's or bosses in most missions.
that level of control is an excellent way to do scaling. And the key is the world is not scaled. So you'll eventually become more powerful than all the mobs in atlas park, King's row, steel canyon...
Scaled instances under my control sure that's great, scaled world no thanks not interested.
Just give the player the choice to scale down to that level zone or not.
This is where such scaling puzzles me, I prefer scaling to "activities" or in groups but why for zones you are never going to go back to on your own? Maybe for the variety, or to make for a more open world feel, but not sure it would even do that. I can't see it being more difficult or that beneficial just a different way of doing things. Also one good thing about MMOs which are not scaled is you expect to see in your zone other players at about your level, asking on zone chat about the sort of things that are important to them. So even presuming that methods to stop players sitting in one sweet xp spot work, how does it feel like a better game?
On the face of it the game has scaling by the dumper truck load!
It scales mobs in missions to the lead characters level; caveat missions are in level ranges; it scales other team members to the level of the lead character - up and down; and it scales the number of mobs to the number of members in a party. It also scales the experience with the size of the team as well.
And from 1-50 the level jumps are huge - way beyond EQ1 / WoW. Nothing squished about CoX. let alone the squished nature of e.g. ESO. 3 levels is a huge jump so if you want to grind you will need to move around more frequently. It also has pretty significant jumps in mob variants as well - from minion to arch-bosses.
At this point I should say its still great fun! With team missions often hectic and frantic. And lots of whacky story arcs.
So is CoX a poster child of a traditional scaled game? On the face of it absolutely.
Throughout its history though the max character level never changed. It was 50 when it launched and it was 50 when it the game was closed. And it doesn't take that long to get to level 50 - a few weeks casual or much, much quicker if you want to power level.
So on the face of it progression stops? The mobs are always the same level when you hit 50, you never gain any levels ... dot ..... dot .... dot
Its a totally different game and yet - in many ways - it has features that have been touched on above. There are easy level X mobs and there are really, really hard level X mobs. And the locations have an impact as well.
Progression - well lets call it "gear progression". Actually enchantments which vary level, type, how many stats they boost and then there are sets which have extra boosts.
Where it gets complicated though is that the bonuses these impact apply very directly to your build. There are thousands of builds btw. And yet because some builds are inherently weak (or strong) to some types of mob .... so it gets interesting. (There are badges as well which can provide extra bonuses but think of those as another item of gear you have or you don't.)
And then you put it all into the mission scaling system in which you are just one bod in a larger group and - as I said above frantic!
It "works" though.
And underline that scaling can be done very differently.
And its currently available for all to try. And it case you have missed it you need to
Except you can control how much it' scalesu or down. That can be done in group or solo even activities scheduled for different group sizes or solo sizes (example you are as good as two or three people together). and you can control whether there's Arch Gillian's or bosses in most missions.
that level of control is an excellent way to do scaling. And the key is the world is not scaled. So you'll eventually become more powerful than all the mobs in atlas park, King's row, steel canyon...
Scaled instances under my control sure that's great, scaled world no thanks not interested.
Just give the player the choice to scale down to that level zone or not.
This is where such scaling puzzles me, I prefer scaling to "activities" or in groups but why for zones you are never going to go back to on your own? Maybe for the variety, or to make for a more open world feel, but not sure it would even do that. I can't see it being more difficult or that beneficial just a different way of doing things. Also one good thing about MMOs which are not scaled is you expect to see in your zone other players at about your level, asking on zone chat about the sort of things that are important to them. So even presuming that methods to stop players sitting in one sweet xp spot work, how does it feel like a better game?
Why wouldn't you go back to the zones if there are reasons to go back? When ESO went to the scaling system they added, as I said earlier, a reason to go back with the 3 unique gear sets that drop in each zone. Some of those sets in some of the zones are definitely worth going back for.
But that was just the beginning.
Since that time with every DLC and chapter they have added a lot of quests chains that take you to open areas and delves in many zones. It's precisely the level scaling that has allowed them to do those types of quest chains - they didn't exist before that.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
It's precisely the level scaling that has allowed them to do those types of quest chains - they didn't exist before that.
Precisely the forced scaling? It tells a lot on their skills, doesn't it?
Considering the other games/devs do that without any forced scaling... (be it seasonal, endgame, episodic, etc. content they add)
I'm fairly sure they could've done it too without One Tamriel, but I also am fairly sure this was the easier way, that's why they went with it.
So it allows a reuse of resources (old zones), that's something but in ESO anyway they do a lot of new zones and content. It may be adding some bling to wear, just not sure it is adding much. To me this is just about the issues that may arise, I can't see how you have a better gameplay experience. Do you get to top level and say, "that was way better than those MMOs I have played which were not scaled". I just can't see how it would do that?
... I can't see how you have a better gameplay experience. Do you get to top level and say, "that was way better than those MMOs I have played which were not scaled". I just can't see how it would do that?
Don't ask me, I don't like forced scaling... as I said dozens of times in scaling threads, I like the options. I find scaling a useful tool, when it's in the hands of the players.
To make it short and bullet points,
forced scaling, I don't poke it with a 10ft pole
no scaling (be it traditional, or level-less, or horizontal sandbox, etc.), good
the above with optional scaling as a tool, best.
ed: of course that's all subjective, and my own preferences. I couldn't care less when other players with different tastes think scaled ESO is the best thing since sliced bread.
What I do have issues with is when said players write entire novels on how their way is the only one and everyone else is stupid not seeing ESO's perfection.
It's precisely the level scaling that has allowed them to do those types of quest chains - they didn't exist before that.
Precisely the forced scaling? It tells a lot on their skills, doesn't it?
Considering the other games/devs do that without any forced scaling... (be it seasonal, endgame, episodic, etc. content they add)
I'm fairly sure they could've done it too without One Tamriel, but I also am fairly sure this was the easier way, that's why they went with it.
So which other games do it without just giving you a phased, instanced slice of the old zone (LOTRO, WOW) or downscaling you (GW2) or just send you to an area with mobs 60 levels below you? Maybe you have some examples of that better, "hard way"?
The reason they did it is very simple to anyone who can follow the bouncing ball: every new zone they released as a DLC was already done that way starting with Orsinium in 2015. They did it as a matter of policy to not be like WOW and release new zones for "end game" exclusively.
As more and more DLC zones were added what do you think would have happened? Clue: eventually only the vanilla PvE content would have been not scaled. Yup it was lazy annd not excellent and hard like WOW... Where do you guys come up with this shit?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
It's precisely the level scaling that has allowed them to do those types of quest chains - they didn't exist before that.
Precisely the forced scaling? It tells a lot on their skills, doesn't it?
Considering the other games/devs do that without any forced scaling... (be it seasonal, endgame, episodic, etc. content they add)
I'm fairly sure they could've done it too without One Tamriel, but I also am fairly sure this was the easier way, that's why they went with it.
So which other games do it without just giving you a phased, instanced slice of the old zone (LOTRO, WOW) or downscaling you (GW2) or just send you to an area with mobs 60 levels below you? Maybe you have some examples of that better, "hard way"?
The reason they did it is very simple to anyone who can follow the bouncing ball: every new zone they released as a DLC was already done that way starting with Orsinium in 2015. They did it as a matter of policy to not be like WOW and release new zones for "end game" exclusively.
As more and more DLC zones were added what do you think would have happened? Clue: eventually only the vanilla PvE content would have been not scaled. Yup it was lazy annd not excellent and hard like WOW... Where do you guys come up with this shit?
This is intrinsic to One Tamriel then? I was not a fan of that, races starting in areas that were the lands of their traditional enemies. It was a real shift to gameplay first, roleplay not on the list of priorities. Some reasonable gameplay reasons, but overall not to my taste, not a huge deal as any roleplayer will know we have this sort of nonsense to put up with all the time, some even liked the idea as it meant their avatar could join in earlier.
Just to point out ESO is one of my all time favourite MMOS, this is not a dig at ESO. With or without scaling it is still up there.
Not sure anyone has said it was lazy or too easy? I did mention that I thought scaling was meant to make things harder, maybe i misread that, and if we are talking about ESO I am almost certain that is the case. I base that on the fact that MMOs never introduce difficulty only make their games ever easier.
I just don't see how being able to pick the order in which you do zones makes a game better? Indeed for story purposes it must have meant some rigging on their part, but that's just for a MMO that started out with level appropriate zones. The only thing that strikes me is I do like the idea of goruping with guildmates from the earliset levels anywhere, for me that would be the only real advantage not of just scaling but the One "MMORPG" idea.
I just don't see how being able to pick the order in which you do zones makes a game better? Indeed for story purposes it must have meant some rigging on their part, but that's just for a MMO that started out with level appropriate zones. The only thing that strikes me is I do like the idea of goruping with guildmates from the earliset levels anywhere, for me that would be the only real advantage not of just scaling but the One "MMORPG" idea.
That part of it doesn't make it better for me either. Story is a big part for me and I want to do it in sequence. That ultra openness is also IMO, not a good thing for new players who are often confused and don't really know where to go.
It's the same reason I'm not a fan of featuring their new chapters with a new tutorial that drops you in that chapter's zone when it's done.
The vanilla game went to great lengths to introduce essential things like mundus stones, mage's and fighter's guilds, etc,. to you in a logical fashion. The new chapter zones the game plops you into when you start these days don't even have mundus stones in them.
For me the whole scaling thing is actually a very small deal and like I said, if you were there all along and played in the DLC zones you were already used to it by the time they made the rest of the world function the same way.
I've always thought of ESO as being easy, and I don't think level scaling has changed that up or down in anyway. Maybe players who are not very good and relied on doing some content by over-leveling it find it harder... I'm just guessing though.
The only part that I thought was much better for me is that I never overlevel any zone. That used to be a bit of an issue for me because of the way I like to play. I do want to follow the breadcrumbs and the stories in order and complete a zone before moving on. But I also like to mix it up and do a lot of 4-man dungeons or pop over to Cyrodiil PvP for a weekend sometimes. When I was leveling in the vanilla zones before scaling I was ALWAYS outleveling and forced to skip content because when you were >5 levels above the content you stopped getting any XP... not to mention that the quest rewards became useless because they were not scaled either.
That's it really. That's the only even mildly important thing that I liked about scaling. I honestly couldn't give less of a shit about it otherwise. I find it amusing when people get bent out of shape about it though and come up with statements like they wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. But that's just me.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Even with One Tamriel, you're not starting in zones outside of your faction. You may start in DLC zones that are faction-agnostic, but you never start anything in "enemy territory" or the like. Not to mention, roleplay-wise, it's not like every person from a racial grouping is aligned ideologically with their kin.
And the ability to choose what direction and what zones you want to progress through shouldn't be that hard of a concept to get, it's just offering player choice. Don't like the zone with all the vampires or werewolves? Then go explore a different zone. You really enjoy the intrigue of noble politics? Then go play the zones with those chains.
And was Pogg's statement meant to be that ironic? He can say a specific thing is the best thing since sliced bread and regularly make comments deriding any alternative, but will chide anyone that explains their own opinions?
I find it amusing when people get bent out of shape about it though and come up with statements like they wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. But that's just me.
I don't see the issue with 10 ft poles but that's maybe just me... Would a scaled pole be more to your liking? Based on different threads and games the pole would either shrink to 5 ft or go up to even 20 ft?
On the face of it the game has scaling by the dumper truck load!
It scales mobs in missions to the lead characters level; caveat missions are in level ranges; it scales other team members to the level of the lead character - up and down; and it scales the number of mobs to the number of members in a party. It also scales the experience with the size of the team as well.
And from 1-50 the level jumps are huge - way beyond EQ1 / WoW. Nothing squished about CoX. let alone the squished nature of e.g. ESO. 3 levels is a huge jump so if you want to grind you will need to move around more frequently. It also has pretty significant jumps in mob variants as well - from minion to arch-bosses.
At this point I should say its still great fun! With team missions often hectic and frantic. And lots of whacky story arcs.
So is CoX a poster child of a traditional scaled game? On the face of it absolutely.
Throughout its history though the max character level never changed. It was 50 when it launched and it was 50 when it the game was closed. And it doesn't take that long to get to level 50 - a few weeks casual or much, much quicker if you want to power level.
So on the face of it progression stops? The mobs are always the same level when you hit 50, you never gain any levels ... dot ..... dot .... dot
Its a totally different game and yet - in many ways - it has features that have been touched on above. There are easy level X mobs and there are really, really hard level X mobs. And the locations have an impact as well.
Progression - well lets call it "gear progression". Actually enchantments which vary level, type, how many stats they boost and then there are sets which have extra boosts.
Where it gets complicated though is that the bonuses these impact apply very directly to your build. There are thousands of builds btw. And yet because some builds are inherently weak (or strong) to some types of mob .... so it gets interesting. (There are badges as well which can provide extra bonuses but think of those as another item of gear you have or you don't.)
And then you put it all into the mission scaling system in which you are just one bod in a larger group and - as I said above frantic!
It "works" though.
And underline that scaling can be done very differently.
And its currently available for all to try. And it case you have missed it you need to
Except you can control how much it' scalesu or down. That can be done in group or solo even activities scheduled for different group sizes or solo sizes (example you are as good as two or three people together). and you can control whether there's Arch Gillian's or bosses in most missions.
that level of control is an excellent way to do scaling. And the key is the world is not scaled. So you'll eventually become more powerful than all the mobs in atlas park, King's row, steel canyon...
Scaled instances under my control sure that's great, scaled world no thanks not interested.
Just give the player the choice to scale down to that level zone or not.
Yes but at a basic level its just scaling with an option of tweaking. And its not quite that simple though since although the team leader can "control" the level of the mission but the rest of the team are still scaled to the level of the team leader.
It is a feature though. And one akin to what a GM might do when running a pen&paper adventure.
Yeah it's a strong example of horizontal progression taking precedence in the long-term over the vertical. While CoX has vertical progression, and some relatively harsh vertical progression, they scale so many things around it that they instead drop the relevance of those power shifts to focus on making progression and difficulty pushed through more distinct mobs, mob tiers, and subsequent variety to both type and severity of a challenge.
And that ending up being a bit focus on the difference in design for such a system. When the progression takes more precedence in how you're slotting skills and what kind of incarnate abilities you're stacking into your setup, it's things done to hone a character for specific challenges.
captures what "progression" in CoX is about. Everything drives your build - which I lumped into "gear progression" - even a few "temporary" powers that some of which last a set number of uses some of which a set time and may require renewing (e.g. justice).
The contrast with ESO is marked and yet there is a lot in common.
I find it amusing when people get bent out of shape about it though and come up with statements like they wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. But that's just me.
I don't see the issue with 10 ft poles but that's maybe just me... Would a scaled pole be more to your liking? Based on different threads and games the pole would either shrink to 5 ft or go up to even 20 ft?
I have no pole preference either. I'd use whichever one is handier.
But all this bruhaha about level scaling kinda reminds of people who wouldn't play ESO because you couldn't sit in the chairs (you can now in case any chair sitting aficionados are interested.)
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I have no pole preference either. I'd use whichever one is handier.
But all this bruhaha about level scaling kinda reminds of people who wouldn't play ESO because you couldn't sit in the chairs (you can now in case any chair sitting aficionados are interested.)
Can only speak for myself, I don't play it since One Tamriel. (also I don't like Firor, but that's a different topic)
Just as I don't play SW:TOR since KotFE, and I'm pretty much on the fence with Neverwinter too since Undermountain last month - and I love that game, play it since beta... they've removed the forced scaling from a lot of places already, so right now I'm still playing, will see what course they'll take the following months.
Mind you, my issue is not with scaling, it's with forced. Same applies to anything else, forced pvp, forced crafting, you name it (for the record, I love crafting but if a game makes it mandatory, I'm out). Devs should give options, and not one generalized route for all. But of course giving options take efforts...
To each their own. If there's one good thing with an oversaturated market, it's you can easily skip those games you don't like. (Until the lazy devs add forced scaling into everything, at least)
On the face of it the game has scaling by the dumper truck load!
It scales mobs in missions to the lead characters level; caveat missions are in level ranges; it scales other team members to the level of the lead character - up and down; and it scales the number of mobs to the number of members in a party. It also scales the experience with the size of the team as well.
And from 1-50 the level jumps are huge - way beyond EQ1 / WoW. Nothing squished about CoX. let alone the squished nature of e.g. ESO. 3 levels is a huge jump so if you want to grind you will need to move around more frequently. It also has pretty significant jumps in mob variants as well - from minion to arch-bosses.
At this point I should say its still great fun! With team missions often hectic and frantic. And lots of whacky story arcs.
So is CoX a poster child of a traditional scaled game? On the face of it absolutely.
Throughout its history though the max character level never changed. It was 50 when it launched and it was 50 when it the game was closed. And it doesn't take that long to get to level 50 - a few weeks casual or much, much quicker if you want to power level.
So on the face of it progression stops? The mobs are always the same level when you hit 50, you never gain any levels ... dot ..... dot .... dot
Its a totally different game and yet - in many ways - it has features that have been touched on above. There are easy level X mobs and there are really, really hard level X mobs. And the locations have an impact as well.
Progression - well lets call it "gear progression". Actually enchantments which vary level, type, how many stats they boost and then there are sets which have extra boosts.
Where it gets complicated though is that the bonuses these impact apply very directly to your build. There are thousands of builds btw. And yet because some builds are inherently weak (or strong) to some types of mob .... so it gets interesting. (There are badges as well which can provide extra bonuses but think of those as another item of gear you have or you don't.)
And then you put it all into the mission scaling system in which you are just one bod in a larger group and - as I said above frantic!
It "works" though.
And underline that scaling can be done very differently.
And its currently available for all to try. And it case you have missed it you need to
Except you can control how much it' scalesu or down. That can be done in group or solo even activities scheduled for different group sizes or solo sizes (example you are as good as two or three people together). and you can control whether there's Arch Gillian's or bosses in most missions.
that level of control is an excellent way to do scaling. And the key is the world is not scaled. So you'll eventually become more powerful than all the mobs in atlas park, King's row, steel canyon...
Scaled instances under my control sure that's great, scaled world no thanks not interested.
Just give the player the choice to scale down to that level zone or not.
This is where such scaling puzzles me, I prefer scaling to "activities" or in groups but why for zones you are never going to go back to on your own? Maybe for the variety, or to make for a more open world feel, but not sure it would even do that. I can't see it being more difficult or that beneficial just a different way of doing things. Also one good thing about MMOs which are not scaled is you expect to see in your zone other players at about your level, asking on zone chat about the sort of things that are important to them. So even presuming that methods to stop players sitting in one sweet xp spot work, how does it feel like a better game?
Why wouldn't you go back to the zones if there are reasons to go back? When ESO went to the scaling system they added, as I said earlier, a reason to go back with the 3 unique gear sets that drop in each zone. Some of those sets in some of the zones are definitely worth going back for.
But that was just the beginning.
Since that time with every DLC and chapter they have added a lot of quests chains that take you to open areas and delves in many zones. It's precisely the level scaling that has allowed them to do those types of quest chains - they didn't exist before that.
Ideas of how things should go are very hard to shake at time. Reuse of resources makes the game world more realistic to me. Your starter village has enemies that has historically plagued them and now you are strong enough to defeat them at max level. Why should a supposedly vast rich city and landscape be empty because it is level 50 and everyone is one 100. I think how we think about MMORPG needs some serious readjusting.
I find it amusing when people get bent out of shape about it though and come up with statements like they wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. But that's just me.
I don't see the issue with 10 ft poles but that's maybe just me... Would a scaled pole be more to your liking? Based on different threads and games the pole would either shrink to 5 ft or go up to even 20 ft?
I have no pole preference either. I'd use whichever one is handier.
But all this bruhaha about level scaling kinda reminds of people who wouldn't play ESO because you couldn't sit in the chairs (you can now in case any chair sitting aficionados are interested.)
For me, I came here kind of leaning one way, thanks to Oblivion and my VERY limited there. That game's scaling sucked, big time. GW2's scaling prevented me going into higher level zones when I played it. I played ES:O in their beta and because of what they did to lore, I never played it again, nor will I.
What I read here confirmed my own opinion on scaling: Not good for me, or very, very limited, like CoH
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I dislike the mechanic because I feel like.......what did I just spend all that time leveling for?
And the developers are like what I just spend all that time making content for as you spend the remainder of your game in 1% of the game.
This says it all for me: spent the time grinding to level, there needs to be perks for doing that grind.
Greys SHOULD cower at you when you're 20+ levels higher, as they no longer reward you with XP or gear worth even wearing anymore.
You need to feel powerful not just with ilevels, but feeling that you're such a menace to wildlife and other baddies they would be FOOLS to try to attack you!!!
This is why the earlier MMOs even had specific combat music to distinguish yellow/orange/red mobs (no XP and not expected to live) music to WARN you too!
^ That theme on the Lavastorm beaches with mobs FROM HELL, yep, very fitting!!!
Look at the length of the song: over 3 minutes. For you to down a red NPC it could take you 3 minute to kill EACH one solo. You adventured in groups then or crossed your fingers you could body pull very good on those walkers (or you ARE dead with 3 reds on you!!!).
Comments
Are you feeling it is more difficult, locusts aside for those of us who play the way the game was meant to be played thats the crux for most players.
It's not like things aren't there. Ya gotta be willing to sacrifice efficiency for the sake of laziness to stick to a single area for grinding.
You keep making comments of "this doesn't exist" or characterizing scaling or otherwise to operate in a particular way even though we have examples at this point of a variety of different ways in which these mechanics have been implemented.
When we have gone out of our way to provide variety in examples, how do you even think you can get away with that bogus argument?
And how do you think bonus xp/xp decay works? Down time = recuperate a bonus to xp gained, doing things depletes that pool. And that was only one of multiple things mentioned as it acts alongside the likes of first time and achievement bonuses.
On the face of it the game has scaling by the dumper truck load!
It scales mobs in missions to the lead characters level; caveat missions are in level ranges; it scales other team members to the level of the lead character - up and down; and it scales the number of mobs to the number of members in a party. It also scales the experience with the size of the team as well.
And from 1-50 the level jumps are huge - way beyond EQ1 / WoW. Nothing squished about CoX. let alone the squished nature of e.g. ESO. 3 levels is a huge jump so if you want to grind you will need to move around more frequently. It also has pretty significant jumps in mob variants as well - from minion to arch-bosses.
At this point I should say its still great fun! With team missions often hectic and frantic. And lots of whacky story arcs.
So is CoX a poster child of a traditional scaled game? On the face of it absolutely.
Throughout its history though the max character level never changed. It was 50 when it launched and it was 50 when it the game was closed. And it doesn't take that long to get to level 50 - a few weeks casual or much, much quicker if you want to power level.
So on the face of it progression stops? The mobs are always the same level when you hit 50, you never gain any levels ... dot ..... dot .... dot
Its a totally different game and yet - in many ways - it has features that have been touched on above. There are easy level X mobs and there are really, really hard level X mobs. And the locations have an impact as well.
Progression - well lets call it "gear progression". Actually enchantments which vary level, type, how many stats they boost and then there are sets which have extra boosts.
Where it gets complicated though is that the bonuses these impact apply very directly to your build. There are thousands of builds btw. And yet because some builds are inherently weak (or strong) to some types of mob .... so it gets interesting. (There are badges as well which can provide extra bonuses but think of those as another item of gear you have or you don't.)
And then you put it all into the mission scaling system in which you are just one bod in a larger group and - as I said above frantic!
It "works" though.
And underline that scaling can be done very differently.
And its currently available for all to try. And it case you have missed it you need to
Download: http://patch.savecoh.com/tequila.exe
Source code: https://github.com/leandrotlz/Tequila
(Note github open source code.)
And go here if you have for discussions etc.
https://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index.php?topic=9531.0
And that ending up being a bit focus on the difference in design for such a system. When the progression takes more precedence in how you're slotting skills and what kind of incarnate abilities you're stacking into your setup, it's things done to hone a character for specific challenges.
that level of control is an excellent way to do scaling. And the key is the world is not scaled. So you'll eventually become more powerful than all the mobs in atlas park, King's row, steel canyon...
Scaled instances under my control sure that's great, scaled world no thanks not interested.
Just give the player the choice to scale down to that level zone or not.
Kinda sounds like the same results as, y'know, scaling the game world so generic/trash mobs are generally at a mid-to-low range for challenge once specced, with specific areas having tougher mobs/world bosses, and then other instanced content having the broader scope.
But that was just the beginning.
Since that time with every DLC and chapter they have added a lot of quests chains that take you to open areas and delves in many zones. It's precisely the level scaling that has allowed them to do those types of quest chains - they didn't exist before that.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
The reason they did it is very simple to anyone who can follow the bouncing ball: every new zone they released as a DLC was already done that way starting with Orsinium in 2015. They did it as a matter of policy to not be like WOW and release new zones for "end game" exclusively.
As more and more DLC zones were added what do you think would have happened? Clue: eventually only the vanilla PvE content would have been not scaled. Yup it was lazy annd not excellent and hard like WOW... Where do you guys come up with this shit?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Just to point out ESO is one of my all time favourite MMOS, this is not a dig at ESO. With or without scaling it is still up there.
Not sure anyone has said it was lazy or too easy? I did mention that I thought scaling was meant to make things harder, maybe i misread that, and if we are talking about ESO I am almost certain that is the case. I base that on the fact that MMOs never introduce difficulty only make their games ever easier.
I just don't see how being able to pick the order in which you do zones makes a game better? Indeed for story purposes it must have meant some rigging on their part, but that's just for a MMO that started out with level appropriate zones. The only thing that strikes me is I do like the idea of goruping with guildmates from the earliset levels anywhere, for me that would be the only real advantage not of just scaling but the One "MMORPG" idea.
It's the same reason I'm not a fan of featuring their new chapters with a new tutorial that drops you in that chapter's zone when it's done.
The vanilla game went to great lengths to introduce essential things like mundus stones, mage's and fighter's guilds, etc,. to you in a logical fashion. The new chapter zones the game plops you into when you start these days don't even have mundus stones in them.
For me the whole scaling thing is actually a very small deal and like I said, if you were there all along and played in the DLC zones you were already used to it by the time they made the rest of the world function the same way.
I've always thought of ESO as being easy, and I don't think level scaling has changed that up or down in anyway. Maybe players who are not very good and relied on doing some content by over-leveling it find it harder... I'm just guessing though.
The only part that I thought was much better for me is that I never overlevel any zone. That used to be a bit of an issue for me because of the way I like to play. I do want to follow the breadcrumbs and the stories in order and complete a zone before moving on. But I also like to mix it up and do a lot of 4-man dungeons or pop over to Cyrodiil PvP for a weekend sometimes. When I was leveling in the vanilla zones before scaling I was ALWAYS outleveling and forced to skip content because when you were >5 levels above the content you stopped getting any XP... not to mention that the quest rewards became useless because they were not scaled either.
That's it really. That's the only even mildly important thing that I liked about scaling. I honestly couldn't give less of a shit about it otherwise. I find it amusing when people get bent out of shape about it though and come up with statements like they wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. But that's just me.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
And the ability to choose what direction and what zones you want to progress through shouldn't be that hard of a concept to get, it's just offering player choice. Don't like the zone with all the vampires or werewolves? Then go explore a different zone. You really enjoy the intrigue of noble politics? Then go play the zones with those chains.
And was Pogg's statement meant to be that ironic? He can say a specific thing is the best thing since sliced bread and regularly make comments deriding any alternative, but will chide anyone that explains their own opinions?
Would a scaled pole be more to your liking?
It is a feature though. And one akin to what a GM might do when running a pen&paper adventure.
@Scot . @Iselin : @VengeSunsoar is talking about instances rather than overland.
@Limnic 's post namely:
captures what "progression" in CoX is about. Everything drives your build - which I lumped into "gear progression" - even a few "temporary" powers that some of which last a set number of uses some of which a set time and may require renewing (e.g. justice).
The contrast with ESO is marked and yet there is a lot in common.
But all this bruhaha about level scaling kinda reminds of people who wouldn't play ESO because you couldn't sit in the chairs (you can now in case any chair sitting aficionados are interested.)
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
What I read here confirmed my own opinion on scaling: Not good for me, or very, very limited, like CoH
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
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