I'm thinking of building a private helicopter factory..... I always wanted one for myself so I can buzz around the neighborhood.
Since crowd funding works on "just a basic idea" like Pantheon, I figure I can build a factory to produce them.
Understand I know nothing about helicopters, nothing at all other than it would be cool.
Now If I can start generating a few million dollars by crowed funding maybe I'll start making phone calls to key people that know something about them..... at least I'll make an effort but only if I have millions, or maybe not..... Please support !
Does anyone have pictures of helicopters to post ?
When I backed this game I had truly hoped they would build out the basics(EQ1 type game) then build upon it over time.
...except that does not work with highly saturated market we have today.
Today, when you release an MMO, you are competing with titles that have many years of post-release development under their belt and without enough content and features. That is a reason why big studios are making big budget games - they are required in order to be competitive.
Just watch sometimes the release of big budget games, how players are whining that they are missing group finders and all sort of QoL features, not to speak about "raw" content.
Releasing barebone game aimed at already small audience with limited features and content thinking it will grow over time, is releasing DOA game. It's a naive pipe dream.
I'm thinking of building a private helicopter factory..... I always wanted one for myself so I can buzz around the neighborhood.
Since crowd funding works on "just a basic idea" like Pantheon, I figure I can build a factory to produce them.
Understand I know nothing about helicopters, nothing at all other than it would be cool.
Now If I can start generating a few million dollars by crowed funding maybe I'll start making phone calls to key people that know something about them..... at least I'll make an effort but only if I have millions, or maybe not..... Please support !
Aerovero is a company that specializes in human powered machines. They won their kickstarter for a human powered helicopter, won and award for it and, well, started Aerovero.
The point being is that one can raise money for just about anything and if the people behind it are intelligent, know what they are doing and can show they can create what they say they they can create are going to be successful.
what is crowdfunding but a way to reach out to people who are interested in your product, showing you can make it (which is the key there) and seeing if people want to give money. I'm pretty sure that the other way to do it is to show up at an organization, show your project and get investment if it seems feasible.
So "you" delete would not succeed with your helicopter kickstarter. But the people at Aerovero did.
I don't think it's beyond the pale for someone to kickstart an ultra-light helicopter project and succeed as we know we can buy kits for those things.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
When I backed this game I had truly hoped they would build out the basics(EQ1 type game) then build upon it over time.
...except that does not work with highly saturated market we have today.
Today, when you release an MMO, you are competing with titles that have many years of post-release development under their belt and without enough content and features. That is a reason why big studios are making big budget games - they are required in order to be competitive.
Just watch sometimes the release of big budget games, how players are whining that they are missing group finders and all sort of QoL features, not to speak about "raw" content.
Releasing barebone game aimed at already small audience with limited features and content thinking it will grow over time, is releasing DOA game. It's a naive pipe dream.
Hence "hoped". Thanks for the State of the Industry explanation though!
I'm thinking of building a private helicopter factory..... I always wanted one for myself so I can buzz around the neighborhood.
Since crowd funding works on "just a basic idea" like Pantheon, I figure I can build a factory to produce them.
Understand I know nothing about helicopters, nothing at all other than it would be cool.
Now If I can start generating a few million dollars by crowed funding maybe I'll start making phone calls to key people that know something about them..... at least I'll make an effort but only if I have millions, or maybe not..... Please support !
Aerovero is a company that specializes in human powered machines. They won their kickstarter for a human powered helicopter, won and award for it and, well, started Aerovero.
The point being is that one can raise money for just about anything and if the people behind it are intelligent, know what they are doing and can show they can create what they say they they can create are going to be successful.
what is crowdfunding but a way to reach out to people who are interested in your product, showing you can make it (which is the key there) and seeing if people want to give money. I'm pretty sure that the other way to do it is to show up at an organization, show your project and get investment if it seems feasible.
So "you" delete would not succeed with your helicopter kickstarter. But the people at Aerovero did.
I don't think it's beyond the pale for someone to kickstart an ultra-light helicopter project and succeed as we know we can buy kits for those things.
I don't know that Delete would succeed with a crowdfunding project to "build a helicopter", but he could certainly find some footing for "buying a helicopter". Maybe even he could look to fund his tuition at a flight school.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I'm thinking of building a private helicopter factory..... I always wanted one for myself so I can buzz around the neighborhood.
Since crowd funding works on "just a basic idea" like Pantheon, I figure I can build a factory to produce them.
Understand I know nothing about helicopters, nothing at all other than it would be cool.
Now If I can start generating a few million dollars by crowed funding maybe I'll start making phone calls to key people that know something about them..... at least I'll make an effort but only if I have millions, or maybe not..... Please support !
Aerovero is a company that specializes in human powered machines. They won their kickstarter for a human powered helicopter, won and award for it and, well, started Aerovero.
The point being is that one can raise money for just about anything and if the people behind it are intelligent, know what they are doing and can show they can create what they say they they can create are going to be successful.
what is crowdfunding but a way to reach out to people who are interested in your product, showing you can make it (which is the key there) and seeing if people want to give money. I'm pretty sure that the other way to do it is to show up at an organization, show your project and get investment if it seems feasible.
So "you" delete would not succeed with your helicopter kickstarter. But the people at Aerovero did.
I don't think it's beyond the pale for someone to kickstart an ultra-light helicopter project and succeed as we know we can buy kits for those things.
I don't know that Delete would succeed with a crowdfunding project to "build a helicopter", but he could certainly find some footing for "buying a helicopter". Maybe even he could look to fund his tuition at a flight school.
Well, it seems you simply need a newsletter full of fluff.... that's all it takes.... with a newsletter you can say practically anything, even create a vision.
Since my grammar sucks, do you want a job ?.... But first we need pictures lots and lots of helicopter pictures.
Tanist said: There used to be a time when less people with more difficult tools and much harder challenges were able to produce innovations that set the standards for future generations of gaming
...it is easy to set "standards" when there are none.
Just because there are pre-built options and many tools available does not necessarily mean lower cost and faster development.
Whether using custom built engine, modyfing an existing one and/or using middleware technology is very tough call since the devil is often in the details you cannot forsee.
"it shouldn't be taking this long" or similar comments are outlandish. You have no idea what challenges they are/were facing or just any insight into a project and it's history.
As far as difference between video game from 1998 and 2020, it is indeed visual assets. They shoots the cost of video games through the roof.
You are not arguing a position though, only excuses.
Logical process dictates that their approach is less work intensive. In fact, this is the very aspect of technological development. Trying to tit for tat to justify why a team of less developers achieved more in less time than now is just... an excuse.
Unity provided them with a means to focus on content over having to develop numerous tools and technology that a proprietary engine would require, something Brad himself has argued in the past as to why they chose Unity over such an in house development engine.
I may not know the specific challenges that they may face, but I do know the basic challenges any project faces in design, development and implementation. This is common among any field that attends similar development objectives. Trying to dismiss objection with "You are not an expert" is a fallacy of ignorance and naivety.
The requirements for visual assets do not however change the fact that their functional designs are severely behind release standards. If the objection by VR was "We have a lot of content to produce, our core designs, functions, classes, systems, etc... are already finished, we are just working on bulk content and story/play design", then at least it would be reasonable. They however are 5+ years in and have yet to get out of a pre-Alpha and have yet to even finish a feature complete project they sought,
I am neither young or ignorant on the tech.
The fact is, they have less work due to the tools they use (and if they have more work, then they admit they made a poor choice in engines) and are behind schedule compared to far more technically advanced projects of their time.
As I said, many games and developers did far more with far less, and much less time in the past. While I do understand graphics are an issue these days, I will not accept such as an excuse for such lack of production. We did far more with far less in the past, stop making excuses.
When I backed this game I had truly hoped they would build out the basics(EQ1 type game) then build upon it over time.
...except that does not work with highly saturated market we have today.
Today, when you release an MMO, you are competing with titles that have many years of post-release development under their belt and without enough content and features. That is a reason why big studios are making big budget games - they are required in order to be competitive.
Just watch sometimes the release of big budget games, how players are whining that they are missing group finders and all sort of QoL features, not to speak about "raw" content.
Releasing barebone game aimed at already small audience with limited features and content thinking it will grow over time, is releasing DOA game. It's a naive pipe dream.
Pure excuses.
Many of the most innovative games of the past did so with limited development teams and NO previous development examples to promote their title. All I hear is big whines about how times are hard for developers in a competitive environment to develop a game that lets be honest... has based itself around GOING BACK to the original design concepts, made by a developer who STARTED the genre and you have the audacity to whine and complain like they are up against something new?
Do you even know what this game was originally designed for? Why it was created? What it was made to achieve?
This is why this game is nothing more than mainstream garbage. You argue like a person who has no clue what it was originally created to be and that means, either the game is being designed for mainstream or its original design. If it was the original design, these "problems" would not be an issue, but then.. we both know Pantheon is not for the original supporters, no... it is designed for mainstream, which is why you argue mainstream and proclaim Pantheon exactly as I have said, a mainstream sell out game for the masses.
No need to argue, I accept that is what this game is.
Enjoy it, I have no desire to play mainstream garbage.
TLDR :It shouldn't take 5 years for a pre-alpha with no complete features using a pre-built engine and assets ...or should it.... you don't know the challenges they face!
You purport to lecture on logic while using fallacy, how authoritarian of you.
...fallacy? I am not the one to ignore reality and call it "excuses"...
At any time you were able to enter the discussion and attend to any specific point of objection, yet you however have chosen to rely on points of rhetoric with no discernible objection. You are typical of the arguments who have nothing, but wish to protest none the less.
Enter the discussion anytime you like, or.. continue to relegate your position to that of a whine based irrelevance. /shrug
At any time you were able to enter the discussion and attend to any specific point of objection, yet you however have chosen to rely on points of rhetoric with no discernible objection.
...again, I am not the one to ignore reality and call it "excuses".
This 'conversation' was just hilarious...back to lolling posts...
At any time you were able to enter the discussion and attend to any specific point of objection, yet you however have chosen to rely on points of rhetoric with no discernible objection.
...again, I am not the one to ignore reality and call it "excuses".
This 'conversation' was just hilarious...back to lolling posts...
Again... another allegation without evidence to support the objection. Your rhetoric continues, showing you lack any valid point in discussion so you elude to victories without classification.
...logical process dictates to assume you know nothing of logic.
"I’m Better Than You and You’re a Moron Troll: This type of troll isn’t out-of-control-crazy, just more condescending and smug. This troll looks for picky things to criticize as justification for why you are an idiot with the mental capacity of a sea cucumber. These trolls will also take time to spell out specific reasons why they are too good/talented/smart to listen to you. Kristen Lamb (2012)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
TLDR :It shouldn't take 5 years for a pre-alpha with no complete features using a pre-built engine and assets ...or should it.... you don't know the challenges they face!
No I don't, but what of the challenges of the EQ team or the other MMOs of the time who had to do more with much less? Less bandwidth, less storage and operating memory, etc... What of them and their challenges?
I do not know of the specifics of VR, but I do know the challenges of software development not only now, but back then and I am not impressed by the developers of today. They do far less, with far more and complain about not having enough to do it.
Then again, this is common even outside of this field.
TLDR :It shouldn't take 5 years for a pre-alpha with no complete features using a pre-built engine and assets ...or should it.... you don't know the challenges they face!
No I don't, but what of the challenges of the EQ team or the other MMOs of the time who had to do more with much less? Less bandwidth, less storage and operating memory, etc... What of them and their challenges?
I do not know of the specifics of VR, but I do know the challenges of software development not only now, but back then and I am not impressed by the developers of today. They do far less, with far more and complain about not having enough to do it.
Then again, this is common even outside of this field.
I think most of their team is learning how to make a game as they are doing it. They were using volunteers for a while too.
TLDR :It shouldn't take 5 years for a pre-alpha with no complete features using a pre-built engine and assets ...or should it.... you don't know the challenges they face!
No I don't, but what of the challenges of the EQ team or the other MMOs of the time who had to do more with much less? Less bandwidth, less storage and operating memory, etc... What of them and their challenges?
I do not know of the specifics of VR, but I do know the challenges of software development not only now, but back then and I am not impressed by the developers of today. They do far less, with far more and complain about not having enough to do it.
Then again, this is common even outside of this field.
I think most of their team is learning how to make a game as they are doing it. They were using volunteers for a while too.
TLDR :It shouldn't take 5 years for a pre-alpha with no complete features using a pre-built engine and assets ...or should it.... you don't know the challenges they face!
No I don't, but what of the challenges of the EQ team or the other MMOs of the time who had to do more with much less? Less bandwidth, less storage and operating memory, etc... What of them and their challenges?
I do not know of the specifics of VR, but I do know the challenges of software development not only now, but back then and I am not impressed by the developers of today. They do far less, with far more and complain about not having enough to do it.
Then again, this is common even outside of this field.
I think most of their team is learning how to make a game as they are doing it. They were using volunteers for a while too.
That would certainly explain a lot.
They just recently got someone who can do animations, hence them being so excited to show us a climbing animation.
TLDR :It shouldn't take 5 years for a pre-alpha with no complete features using a pre-built engine and assets ...or should it.... you don't know the challenges they face!
No I don't, but what of the challenges of the EQ team or the other MMOs of the time who had to do more with much less? Less bandwidth, less storage and operating memory, etc... What of them and their challenges?
I do not know of the specifics of VR, but I do know the challenges of software development not only now, but back then and I am not impressed by the developers of today. They do far less, with far more and complain about not having enough to do it.
Then again, this is common even outside of this field.
I think most of their team is learning how to make a game as they are doing it. They were using volunteers for a while too.
That would certainly explain a lot.
They just recently got someone who can do animations, hence them being so excited to show us a climbing animation.
Well, they have certainly made it clear that graphics are MAJOR priority with the amount of time they have spent on it.
TLDR :It shouldn't take 5 years for a pre-alpha with no complete features using a pre-built engine and assets ...or should it.... you don't know the challenges they face!
No I don't, but what of the challenges of the EQ team or the other MMOs of the time who had to do more with much less? Less bandwidth, less storage and operating memory, etc... What of them and their challenges?
I do not know of the specifics of VR, but I do know the challenges of software development not only now, but back then and I am not impressed by the developers of today. They do far less, with far more and complain about not having enough to do it.
Then again, this is common even outside of this field.
I think most of their team is learning how to make a game as they are doing it. They were using volunteers for a while too.
That would certainly explain a lot.
They just recently got someone who can do animations, hence them being so excited to show us a climbing animation.
Well, they have certainly made it clear that graphics are MAJOR priority with the amount of time they have spent on it.
CLIMBING GUYS! FINALLY A VERTICAL CRAWLING ANIMATION FOR A CLASSIC TEAM BASED HIGH FANTASY MMORPG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TLDR :It shouldn't take 5 years for a pre-alpha with no complete features using a pre-built engine and assets ...or should it.... you don't know the challenges they face!
No I don't, but what of the challenges of the EQ team or the other MMOs of the time who had to do more with much less? Less bandwidth, less storage and operating memory, etc... What of them and their challenges?
I do not know of the specifics of VR, but I do know the challenges of software development not only now, but back then and I am not impressed by the developers of today. They do far less, with far more and complain about not having enough to do it.
Then again, this is common even outside of this field.
I think most of their team is learning how to make a game as they are doing it. They were using volunteers for a while too.
That would certainly explain a lot.
They just recently got someone who can do animations, hence them being so excited to show us a climbing animation.
Well, they have certainly made it clear that graphics are MAJOR priority with the amount of time they have spent on it.
This does prove the point though, climbing like this was not in earlier mmo's so they have departed from the old standard of what was achievable. I know Unity pretty well, and if they had access to all EQ assets, they could patch together an equivalent game pretty quickly (up and running in months not years). It might not perform as well as the original on older platforms which is something that hasn't been mentioned in this debate, but it is false that it would take as long or longer to make an equal or equivalent to a 20 year old game.
TLDR :It shouldn't take 5 years for a pre-alpha with no complete features using a pre-built engine and assets ...or should it.... you don't know the challenges they face!
No I don't, but what of the challenges of the EQ team or the other MMOs of the time who had to do more with much less? Less bandwidth, less storage and operating memory, etc... What of them and their challenges?
I do not know of the specifics of VR, but I do know the challenges of software development not only now, but back then and I am not impressed by the developers of today. They do far less, with far more and complain about not having enough to do it.
Then again, this is common even outside of this field.
I think most of their team is learning how to make a game as they are doing it. They were using volunteers for a while too.
That would certainly explain a lot.
They just recently got someone who can do animations, hence them being so excited to show us a climbing animation.
Well, they have certainly made it clear that graphics are MAJOR priority with the amount of time they have spent on it.
CLIMBING GUYS! FINALLY A VERTICAL CRAWLING ANIMATION FOR A CLASSIC TEAM BASED HIGH FANTASY MMORPG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I thought it was funny how the dev's were so happy they invented climbing.
This does prove the point though, climbing like this was not in earlier
mmo's so they have departed from the old standard of what was
achievable. I know Unity pretty well, and if they had access to all EQ
assets, they could patch together an equivalent game pretty quickly (up
and running in months not years). It might not perform as well as the
original on older platforms which is something that hasn't been
mentioned in this debate, but it is false that it would take as long or
longer to make an equal or equivalent to a 20 year old game.
Well of course it wouldn't take longer. All the hard work was already done 20+ years ago. Desert of Flames (EQ2 expansion with the same climbing as Pantheon) came out in 2005. ~15 years ago.
It's been pointed out dozens (hundreds?) of times over the past 6 years:
They could grey box every zone and use primitives for both mobs and player-characters, and play test ALL the mechanics, all the systems, all the game loops, without a single particle effect, texture, light, model, art or asset required.
That's how you make a game on the cheap. That's how you prove you have a game that's worth playing for years. If your target audience doesn't care about the graphics? Then play to the strengths of your target audience. THEN you add the art. THEN you make it pretty.
This whole idea of making it pretty before the mechanics are tested and proven to the target audience is financially irresponsible with such a small budget and small team.
Plus, client performance wouldn't even be a consideration at all, during that kind of testing. You could test hundreds of builds per months with thousands of volunteers, and everyone would do it for free, or pay a sub for the privilege. It would also play on ~any machine, without hardware considerations.
Comments
I'm taking suggestions.
Today, when you release an MMO, you are competing with titles that have many years of post-release development under their belt and without enough content and features. That is a reason why big studios are making big budget games - they are required in order to be competitive.
Just watch sometimes the release of big budget games, how players are whining that they are missing group finders and all sort of QoL features, not to speak about "raw" content.
Releasing barebone game aimed at already small audience with limited features and content thinking it will grow over time, is releasing DOA game. It's a naive pipe dream.
Aerovero is a company that specializes in human powered machines. They won their kickstarter for a human powered helicopter, won and award for it and, well, started Aerovero.
The point being is that one can raise money for just about anything and if the people behind it are intelligent, know what they are doing and can show they can create what they say they they can create are going to be successful.
what is crowdfunding but a way to reach out to people who are interested in your product, showing you can make it (which is the key there) and seeing if people want to give money. I'm pretty sure that the other way to do it is to show up at an organization, show your project and get investment if it seems feasible.
So "you" delete would not succeed with your helicopter kickstarter. But the people at Aerovero did.
I don't think it's beyond the pale for someone to kickstart an ultra-light helicopter project and succeed as we know we can buy kits for those things.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Since my grammar sucks, do you want a job ?.... But first we need pictures lots and lots of helicopter pictures.
Logical process dictates that their approach is less work intensive. In fact, this is the very aspect of technological development. Trying to tit for tat to justify why a team of less developers achieved more in less time than now is just... an excuse.
Unity provided them with a means to focus on content over having to develop numerous tools and technology that a proprietary engine would require, something Brad himself has argued in the past as to why they chose Unity over such an in house development engine.
I may not know the specific challenges that they may face, but I do know the basic challenges any project faces in design, development and implementation. This is common among any field that attends similar development objectives. Trying to dismiss objection with "You are not an expert" is a fallacy of ignorance and naivety.
The requirements for visual assets do not however change the fact that their functional designs are severely behind release standards. If the objection by VR was "We have a lot of content to produce, our core designs, functions, classes, systems, etc... are already finished, we are just working on bulk content and story/play design", then at least it would be reasonable. They however are 5+ years in and have yet to get out of a pre-Alpha and have yet to even finish a feature complete project they sought,
I am neither young or ignorant on the tech.
The fact is, they have less work due to the tools they use (and if they have more work, then they admit they made a poor choice in engines) and are behind schedule compared to far more technically advanced projects of their time.
As I said, many games and developers did far more with far less, and much less time in the past. While I do understand graphics are an issue these days, I will not accept such as an excuse for such lack of production. We did far more with far less in the past, stop making excuses.
Pure excuses.
Many of the most innovative games of the past did so with limited development teams and NO previous development examples to promote their title. All I hear is big whines about how times are hard for developers in a competitive environment to develop a game that lets be honest... has based itself around GOING BACK to the original design concepts, made by a developer who STARTED the genre and you have the audacity to whine and complain like they are up against something new?
Do you even know what this game was originally designed for? Why it was created? What it was made to achieve?
This is why this game is nothing more than mainstream garbage. You argue like a person who has no clue what it was originally created to be and that means, either the game is being designed for mainstream or its original design. If it was the original design, these "problems" would not be an issue, but then.. we both know Pantheon is not for the original supporters, no... it is designed for mainstream, which is why you argue mainstream and proclaim Pantheon exactly as I have said, a mainstream sell out game for the masses.
No need to argue, I accept that is what this game is.
Enjoy it, I have no desire to play mainstream garbage.
Enter the discussion anytime you like, or.. continue to relegate your position to that of a whine based irrelevance. /shrug
This 'conversation' was just hilarious...back to lolling posts...
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I do not know of the specifics of VR, but I do know the challenges of software development not only now, but back then and I am not impressed by the developers of today. They do far less, with far more and complain about not having enough to do it.
Then again, this is common even outside of this field.
learn-as-you-go
THEN you add the art. THEN you make it pretty.
This whole idea of making it pretty before the mechanics are tested and proven to the target audience is financially irresponsible with such a small budget and small team.