Survival games with hardcore rule sets are popular because you put zero effort into your character and if you die, another decent weapon is right around the corner. They are transient worlds where you can start over at the "endgame" anytime. MMORPGs with the same rule sets always fail, or turn into tiny niche games like albion. All of the popular MMORPGs are a mix of pvp and pve and do not feature full loot. When you invest months into developing your character and riding the gear treadmill, most people don't want to lose their stuff. PVP turns into a mass zergfest as it is in Albion. I like survival games, but the things I like about them are the same things that kill a MMORPG.
you cannot combine vegan food with meat, well sure... you could, but it wouldn't be vegan anymore
Realm Versus Realm, as in DAOC squares that circle.
Yeah but the PVE was crap
No it was not, I preferred WoW and AC from those days, but it was not bad. And once again there is no reason a RvR MMO cannot have the best PvE there is, nothing about RvR inhibits great PvE.
Some games have both. I've had a lot of PvP fun in DAOC, Ryzom, and ESO. But none of those games *force* you to PvP.
Each of those games has zones where PvP is open, and if you go there, you can and probably will be attacked. In Ryzom's case, the best materials for crafting were in a PvP zone.
The fundamental problem is where you are FORCED to do what you don't want to. In ESO, some of the PvP skills have to be earned in PvE. Games with open PvP might allow PvE, but you can be attacked at any time. Few people want this.
I'm absolutely sure that no game forces you to buy/download it. Therefore no game is forcing you to play it. PvE or PvP
Sure, and why would you NOT buy a game? Because it forces you to play in a way you don't like, Successful games provide both experiences without forcing players one way or the other.
Some games have both. I've had a lot of PvP fun in DAOC, Ryzom, and ESO. But none of those games *force* you to PvP.
Each of those games has zones where PvP is open, and if you go there, you can and probably will be attacked. In Ryzom's case, the best materials for crafting were in a PvP zone.
The fundamental problem is where you are FORCED to do what you don't want to. In ESO, some of the PvP skills have to be earned in PvE. Games with open PvP might allow PvE, but you can be attacked at any time. Few people want this.
I'm absolutely sure that no game forces you to buy/download it. Therefore no game is forcing you to play it. PvE or PvP
Sure, and why would you NOT buy a game? Because it forces you to play in a way you don't like, Successful games provide both experiences without forcing players one way or the other.
Successful games provide a great experience to the market they are catering to.
Most companies want to "try" to cater to different play styles so they can maximize their audience. However, that is seldom done well.
Different markets are also a factor. Lineage and Lineage 2 are still huge over in korea. Both have open world pvp.
Then again, from what I've read, they actually play the game differently than westerners so perhaps there isn't a lot of ganking for the sake of ganking.
There aren't many grade A pvp mmorpg's. It could be a chicken and the egg situation. Smaller audience for pvp games because they aren't that great. But people look at the smaller audicence and say that it's beacause no one wants to play a pvp mmorpg.
So which is it? Because they just aren't made well or that no one wants a pvp mmorpg. And, it's a sliding scale. The reality is that there is a small group of people who love messing with others. They are the group that ruins it for everyone.
To add, EVE is supposed to be one of those games that has done both well, Except my time in the early game and what was presumably a safe space was getting blown up by other players. Still not clear how they did it but it has something to do with me mining and collecting my "bits" and then I would get killed.
Of course, I didn't cry about it and cry that this was forced "anything." I knew what the game was about but thought to try it anyway.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The game was designed from the beginning with PvP as the focal point and assets built around that. 5 months before launch you have a shift in your plans it spells a receipe for disaster at launch. I feel PvE players will experience a major let down with the lack of content. As someone said in the other thread this game will go the way of No Mans Sky and build up to a great game. I wont be suprised if they push back the release date to add more PvE content.
The game was designed from the beginning with PvP as the focal point and assets built around that. 5 months before launch you have a shift in your plans it spells a receipe for disaster at launch. I feel PvE players will experience a major let down with the lack of content. As someone said in the other thread this game will go the way of No Mans Sky and build up to a great game. I wont be suprised if they push back the release date to add more PvE content.
Strong possibility they will push back release.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
PvP and PvE need to have separate main areas. Sure, a flag to turn on PvP in a PvE area is nice, but PvPers need to have an area where all out war is expected, like any WvWvW area, or PvP Battleground. I'm a PvEr, but man I loves me some battlegrounds or WvW(vW).
In the end, there ARE PvPers out there who get their jollies ganking lowbies over and over and over again. Its not cool, and its not fun, and it certainly makes the lowbie not want to spend any more amount of their valuable time or money in the game. And that's the bottom line. Cater to elite endgame raiders and a game will always fail, b/c there is just no money in it. Cater to PvPers in a mixed environment and the game will fail in similar fashion. There are just way more PvErs out there and these games are business endeavors from the start.
As others said, you either make a PvP game or you make a PvE game. The two dispositions will never work. That said, the "Just don't add PvP" is flat out asinine. There are dozens of PvE MMOs and not a single decent western PvP MMO. That isn't due to lack of popularity either. Every PvP MMO flop can be blamed on imbalance, lack of any PvE timesinks or P2W elements. It's high time that people who are mature enough to not rage quit from ganking get their own game. The PvE crowd needs get over their entitled belief they deserve the right to play every game without consequences.
I watched a video where a chap explained that this game right now has almost no real content for PvE. Most of the content so far has been for PvP. What are they offering the PvE players for them to even consider playing this game?
The thing is... the game didn't really have PvP content as well. It was really barebones in the alpha.
As others said, you either make a PvP game or you make a PvE game. The two dispositions will never work. That said, the "Just don't add PvP" is flat out asinine. There are dozens of PvE MMOs and not a single decent western PvP MMO. That isn't due to lack of popularity either. Every PvP MMO flop can be blamed on imbalance, lack of any PvE timesinks or P2W elements. It's high time that people who are mature enough to not rage quit from ganking get their own game. The PvE crowd needs get over their entitled belief they deserve the right to play every game without consequences.
The PvP crowd needs to stop thinking everything has to be their way.
I'm so happy that these developers came to their senses and changed their game to meet the demands of the majority of MMO players...on the other hand, why don't they just have a server for PvE and another for PvP? Makes no difference to me, I won't be playing the game anyway...just seems like a no-brainer.
Ive had great times playing Darkfall, open world full loot Pvp. Ive also had piss poor experiences playing it. I was not among the top 20% skill wise, but still had my fun. I took my beat downs, geared back up, continued on. Some of the greatest moments were had out farming for mats and such, then suddenly being attacked, fighting to hold the stuff I had obtained while farming. Never has a PvE game given me that type of excitement.
With that said, being older now, and less time to game, I prefer a game with areas to do battle, such as battle grounds or separate maps with set pvp rules and objectives, though the thought of some nice open world sieges and large scale battles in New World does sound like great fun. Just perhaps not the full loot part for me any longer.
If I had more time to sink into games, I would be all for a full loot/partial loot, as I think Pvp needs some risk/reward. Otherwise, Pvp starts to become stale and meaningless. Darkfall had sieges for cities, full loot, and gear durability, gear that could not be repaired or fixed. It helped keep the economy going and a reason to go out and farm for more mats and gear. There was usually always something to keep you busy, rather it be needing more enchanting mats, materials to build your city back after a fight, or iron/rares to craft new gear. Cities had value via some having quarries to mine for rare ores, or timber mills to get rare woods and such. Different cities were more desirable, thus creating a reason to wage war. This would cause alliances to form, politics to happen. Sadly that game was ran by a poor company and management team. It needed some safe areas for newer players to get a footing, and more PvE content. The mobs A.I. was terrible.
Hey Pooma you didn't have to over-emphasize how you know nothing about PvP by suggesting duels as the only PvP option for MMORPGs.
PvP in MMOs is not a 1v1 thing. That is in fact the worst possible application of PvP in MMORPGs because it will highlight all the imbalances that a system with varied classes and levels has.
This is not Fornite where everyone starts out exactly the same with the same gear and same skills and the whole thing is over in 10 minutes.
Where MMORPG PvP shines is in large group engagements in maps that are large enough to support it with interesting objectives / challenges where group strategy and tactics can flex. 1v1 fights do happen in those as well but only as brief fights around the edges of major engagements. But they're not the purpose and end-goal of anything,
Cyrodiil in ESO actually does it quite well - nearly as well as DAoC did it - but only if you're willing to get out of solo or just you and one buddy play style. Join a full well-led warband and go take keeps or defend them if you want to see what MMO PvP is really all about.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
This is the very reason these games make separate servers, one for PVE and one for PVP so people can play whatever style they like. Trying to force PVP or PVE on a player is just bad business and ultimately spell doom for the game..
Yeah the problem is that the PVP servers always end up empty and are a waste of money. Now you would think the devs would look at this and have a wake up moment.
All of the most popular PC games are PvP. They will definitely favor the PvP content over the PvE.
What most popular PC games are PvP?
Shadowbane? Darkfall? Dark Age of Camelot?
The most popular games are the ones where everyone can pick it up and play it. And they are not PvP games. Did you check lately if used to live in a parallel universe where PvP was the most popular thing in your reality, but somehow you got transported into our reality where PvP is a niche market?
Pretty sure he's talking about Fortnite, Overwatch, LoL, etc.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
All of the most popular PC games are PvP. They will definitely favor the PvP content over the PvE.
What most popular PC games are PvP?
Shadowbane? Darkfall? Dark Age of Camelot?
The most popular games are the ones where everyone can pick it up and play it. And they are not PvP games. Did you check lately if used to live in a parallel universe where PvP was the most popular thing in your reality, but somehow you got transported into our reality where PvP is a niche market?
Good thing this is just an opinion by some random nobody. The reality is we don't want "instanced duels". If I wanted to 1v1 somebody I'd just go play street fighter. I want open world pvp and a unique experience not found in other games. That's what NW used to be. You can be a highwayman, trader, mercenary or bounty hunter. Now you can't be any of those things,
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Realm Versus Realm, as in DAOC squares that circle.
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Most companies want to "try" to cater to different play styles so they can maximize their audience. However, that is seldom done well.
Different markets are also a factor. Lineage and Lineage 2 are still huge over in korea. Both have open world pvp.
Then again, from what I've read, they actually play the game differently than westerners so perhaps there isn't a lot of ganking for the sake of ganking.
There aren't many grade A pvp mmorpg's. It could be a chicken and the egg situation. Smaller audience for pvp games because they aren't that great. But people look at the smaller audicence and say that it's beacause no one wants to play a pvp mmorpg.
So which is it? Because they just aren't made well or that no one wants a pvp mmorpg. And, it's a sliding scale. The reality is that there is a small group of people who love messing with others. They are the group that ruins it for everyone.
To add, EVE is supposed to be one of those games that has done both well, Except my time in the early game and what was presumably a safe space was getting blown up by other players. Still not clear how they did it but it has something to do with me mining and collecting my "bits" and then I would get killed.
Of course, I didn't cry about it and cry that this was forced "anything." I knew what the game was about but thought to try it anyway.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Oh wait then it turned into a survival game.
Oh then it turned into a Battle Royale game.
Ah but then they tested some PvP stuff so it was a pvP game ..... except they never said this.
So now when it has PvE and PvP - more than one mode it seems - people are surprised?
The scope could still expand pre-launch; it could certainly expand post-launch.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
In the end, there ARE PvPers out there who get their jollies ganking lowbies over and over and over again. Its not cool, and its not fun, and it certainly makes the lowbie not want to spend any more amount of their valuable time or money in the game. And that's the bottom line. Cater to elite endgame raiders and a game will always fail, b/c there is just no money in it. Cater to PvPers in a mixed environment and the game will fail in similar fashion. There are just way more PvErs out there and these games are business endeavors from the start.
That's just, like, my opinion, man.
I had to say it.
With that said, being older now, and less time to game, I prefer a game with areas to do battle, such as battle grounds or separate maps with set pvp rules and objectives, though the thought of some nice open world sieges and large scale battles in New World does sound like great fun. Just perhaps not the full loot part for me any longer.
If I had more time to sink into games, I would be all for a full loot/partial loot, as I think Pvp needs some risk/reward. Otherwise, Pvp starts to become stale and meaningless. Darkfall had sieges for cities, full loot, and gear durability, gear that could not be repaired or fixed. It helped keep the economy going and a reason to go out and farm for more mats and gear. There was usually always something to keep you busy, rather it be needing more enchanting mats, materials to build your city back after a fight, or iron/rares to craft new gear. Cities had value via some having quarries to mine for rare ores, or timber mills to get rare woods and such. Different cities were more desirable, thus creating a reason to wage war. This would cause alliances to form, politics to happen. Sadly that game was ran by a poor company and management team. It needed some safe areas for newer players to get a footing, and more PvE content. The mobs A.I. was terrible.
PvP in MMOs is not a 1v1 thing. That is in fact the worst possible application of PvP in MMORPGs because it will highlight all the imbalances that a system with varied classes and levels has.
This is not Fornite where everyone starts out exactly the same with the same gear and same skills and the whole thing is over in 10 minutes.
Where MMORPG PvP shines is in large group engagements in maps that are large enough to support it with interesting objectives / challenges where group strategy and tactics can flex. 1v1 fights do happen in those as well but only as brief fights around the edges of major engagements. But they're not the purpose and end-goal of anything,
Cyrodiil in ESO actually does it quite well - nearly as well as DAoC did it - but only if you're willing to get out of solo or just you and one buddy play style. Join a full well-led warband and go take keeps or defend them if you want to see what MMO PvP is really all about.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Yeah the problem is that the PVP servers always end up empty and are a waste of money. Now you would think the devs would look at this and have a wake up moment.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED