Gonna burst your bubble here, but PvP is HUGE, it's Fucking Massive in the gaming world, it dwarfs the population of players that play MMO's across the world, that is why games like Fortnight is a billion dollar business, and people have become millionaires on playing those kinds of games.
So, Just a heads up, when Companies make a PvP MMO, they are not looking to make bank off that microscopic subset of players that adore the totally flawed and unbalanced systems of yesteryears MMO PvP, they are looking to pull from that huge well of PvP players.
Reality Check: Real PvP players don't want an unbalanced rubbish of a game, neither do PvE players, and neither do the people that watch Streams.
Here's another reality check: You don't try to sell fishing rods to bird watchers so you don't make MMORPGs for BR casuals.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
There are no PvP-centric open world MMO's currently on the market. It's all PvE. We finally had something with a budget behind it coming out, but no, we can't have nice things because every single game that comes out needs to be PvE only according to the PvE crowd.
Really? ALL mmos recently released where exclusively pve? They didn't have pvp, like at all? Don't be some melodramatic. The majority of them tried to cater to all playstyles it wasn't focused on exclusively pve or pvp and that is the problem.
It won't need to appeal to streamers,they will be paying streamer houses to play their game. I wouldn't even doubt we end up seeing Dr,Disrespect and his sidekick Summit1G,they seem to move from game to game,whoever pays them more. Personally i can't stand about 99% of the streamers,most of the females are tramps dancing or showing cleavage for money and the guys all think they are RPO gamer's ..lol,look at me i am a real pro. So i will tend to watch the more relaxed self driven streamers than the simple business deal ones.Angry Joe might make some good video content on games but his stream is a horrible sellout to business deals. So yeah we can expect to see a LOT of streamers and their houses contacted to stream this,likely even a day before the rest of us get it.Actually unless i see something good,i won't be playing it.
You're right, the streamers will play whatever they are paid to play, you're right, I should have clarified that I was more referring to the people that watch the streams, my bad.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Gonna burst your bubble here, but PvP is HUGE, it's Fucking Massive in the gaming world, it dwarfs the population of players that play MMO's across the world, that is why games like Fortnight is a billion dollar business, and people have become millionaires on playing those kinds of games.
So, Just a heads up, when Companies make a PvP MMO, they are not looking to make bank off that microscopic subset of players that adore the totally flawed and unbalanced systems of yesteryears MMO PvP, they are looking to pull from that huge well of PvP players.
Reality Check: Real PvP players don't want an unbalanced rubbish of a game, neither do PvE players, and neither do the people that watch Streams.
Here's another reality check: You don't try to sell fishing rods to bird watchers so you don't make MMORPGs for BR casuals.
Well Apparent, Amazon thought they were selling Fishing Rods (A very popular and profitable sporting pastime that has many ways to enjoy it, from fly fishing to oceanic marlin hunting - IE: PvP &PvE players), and realized they were gonna get Bird Watchers (A much smaller and less profitable demographic - IE: TvT players), and are trying to fix that fuck up before they go bankrupt trying to sell something that does not sell.
But, to be fair, that is not the fault any of the player groups.
It's entirely the fault of the Amazon dev's not having a clue about what they are doing and had not been paying attention to any of the lessons that other game companies had to learn the hard way, and, it was going to be a train wreck anyway, because given their sudden changes, it's painfully obvious they had no idea who and what demographic they were actually building for at the start.
Just my observations at this point.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
There are no PvP-centric open world MMO's currently on the market. It's all PvE. We finally had something with a budget behind it coming out, but no, we can't have nice things because every single game that comes out needs to be PvE only according to the PvE crowd.
Really? ALL mmos recently released where exclusively pve? They didn't have pvp, like at all? Don't be some melodramatic. The majority of them tried to cater to all playstyles it wasn't focused on exclusively pve or pvp and that is the problem.
Catering to all playstyles is not pvp-centric, is it? You just proved my point with your statement, so thank you.
There are no PvP-centric open world MMO's currently on the market. It's all PvE. We finally had something with a budget behind it coming out, but no, we can't have nice things because every single game that comes out needs to be PvE only according to the PvE crowd.
Really? ALL mmos recently released where exclusively pve? They didn't have pvp, like at all? Don't be some melodramatic. The majority of them tried to cater to all playstyles it wasn't focused on exclusively pve or pvp and that is the problem.
Catering to all playstyles is not pvp-centric, is it? You just proved my point with your statement, so thank you.
So, the problem is not a lack of MMO's that provide PvP, (of which there are plenty), the problem is that the people that want a PvP MMO are unwilling to share.
Yah.. that sounds like a problem.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
There are no PvP-centric open world MMO's currently on the market. It's all PvE. We finally had something with a budget behind it coming out, but no, we can't have nice things because every single game that comes out needs to be PvE only according to the PvE crowd.
Really? ALL mmos recently released where exclusively pve? They didn't have pvp, like at all? Don't be some melodramatic. The majority of them tried to cater to all playstyles it wasn't focused on exclusively pve or pvp and that is the problem.
Catering to all playstyles is not pvp-centric, is it? You just proved my point with your statement, so thank you.
Neither are they pve-centric as you claim, so try again.
Actually what PvP needs is game AI good enough to be able to act like weak actual players. If half the players on a server in a PvP game were actually AI players and they tended to lose battles but put up a decent fight, then Pvpers would win (on average) that 70%+ that people need to be happy as opposed to the 50% that you get on a pure pvp server where pveers are removed from the equation.
PvP servers suffer because 30% of the players(higher when pveers are included) win 30% or fewer of their engagements and tend to leave, making a new 30% of players who have no fun and leave...
Adding more bad players where nobody knows the difference solves the problem.
I know there have been miner bots made for games and monster killing bots. You could program them to try to flee from pvp encounters. Pause for a few seconds and fight badly or even competently with poor to bad equipment.
Imagine if devs and players put even 1/100th of the thought into rpg systems and mechanics as they do about pvp and pve. Then the games may be fun to play either way.
What's funny is there are literally hundreds of thousands of old PvP loving MMO players out there that could have easily given them the right formula for how to create a good MMO with good PvP. Even if they just asked old DAoC players and got info from that narrow opinion base, the end result would have been much better than what we re seeing here.
Even better, most probably would have given their creative advice for the cost of the damn game, or even a free month.
The one thing I take from this thread is that you only have to say "PvP" and so many MMO fans immediately switch off. Realm v Realm was the answer to the PvP/PvE conundrum, the fact so few MMO players have even played in such a game is part of the reason there is still such a knee jerk reaction to PvP.
Toughen is the answer imho. Die a 1000 times to a boss, that’s ok. Die to a player OMG...
Neither one bothers me in the slightest. I like the entire mmorpg experience not just part of it...
Doubt I really need to spell it out, but...
The player that died to that boss CHOSE to fight it countless times. The player that was ganked, had no saying in it.
What if there was a wandering high level mob that would only agro if you hunted in an area without at least a small group?
Or just wandering high level mobs mixed with low level mobs needed for progression...
Is that acceptable?
EQ did things like that, where they mixed high and low level mobs in a zone, the example I remember vividly of this was Foon and Choon right in wolf area. Most of the time, especially with new players, it was not well received.
I notice a lot of MMO's going forward did not adopt that kind of diversity, I wager because, overall, players didn't like it.
Kithicor Forest was always my favorite, I remember having to go through that place at night sometimes to get from my village to the main town and it was really scary with roaming high level undead. Looking back, I probably hated it at the time (when I got killed), but it was a neat mechanic that I do miss sometimes.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
The one thing I take from this thread is that you only have to say "PvP" and so many MMO fans immediately switch off. Realm v Realm was the answer to the PvP/PvE conundrum, the fact so few MMO players have even played in such a game is part of the reason there is still such a knee jerk reaction to PvP.
Toughen is the answer imho. Die a 1000 times to a boss, that’s ok. Die to a player OMG...
Neither one bothers me in the slightest. I like the entire mmorpg experience not just part of it...
Doubt I really need to spell it out, but...
The player that died to that boss CHOSE to fight it countless times. The player that was ganked, had no saying in it.
What if there was a wandering high level mob that would only agro if you hunted in an area without at least a small group?
Or just wandering high level mobs mixed with low level mobs needed for progression...
Is that acceptable?
EQ did things like that, where they mixed high and low level mobs in a zone, the example I remember vividly of this was Foon and Choon right in wolf area. Most of the time, especially with new players, it was not well received.
I notice a lot of MMO's going forward did not adopt that kind of diversity, I wager because, overall, players didn't like it.
Kithicor Forest was always my favorite, I remember having to go through that place at night sometimes to get from my village to the main town and it was really scary with roaming high level undead. Looking back, I probably hated it at the time (when I got killed), but it was a neat mechanic that I do miss sometimes.
I admit, it was a cool mechanic with the night and day mobs. EQ really did a lot of things that seemed to be ahead of the curve, I wager a lot of which was just really a bright eyed team seeing what they could pull off that seemed wild and fun from a players perspective, after all, Brad was an avid player of his own game, so there is that. A lot of it was pretty wild. Some of it was downright mean, like, Kithicor was right on the exit of Rivervale (Halfling Noob Town), and there was zero warning about what went down in that zone at night.
And you're right, there was a real fear factor, because if you died out there, there was a good chance you were not going to get your body back in time.
I can't say I miss that.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
The amazing thing is the DAoC is the only game that really got PVE and PVP right. That was until they added an expansion that afforded those that completed a long quest chain amazing PVP powers. Up until that point, even PVErs were jumping in and PVPing at times.
One way to kill a game is to give PVPers any kind of major advantage. That is one of the reasons why PVP in ESO sucks, way too many overpowered players make it difficult for the average person to enjoy it.
It is obvious this Amazon team has no clue what they are doing and have not done any research on the successes and failures of other MMOs. So, any hope that this game will be decent is a slim hope at best.
The amazing thing is the DAoC is the only game that really got PVE and PVP right. That was until they added an expansion that afforded those that completed a long quest chain amazing PVP powers. Up until that point, even PVErs were jumping in and PVPing at times.
One way to kill a game is to give PVPers any kind of major advantage. That is one of the reasons why PVP in ESO sucks, way too many overpowered players make it difficult for the average person to enjoy it.
It is obvious this Amazon team has no clue what they are doing and have not done any research on the successes and failures of other MMOs. So, any hope that this game will be decent is a slim hope at best.
There are non CP campaigns in ESO.
PvP sucks in ESO because PvP in an MMORPG sucks period. It is a lost cause that should remain lost. It should not be part of the core game.
With an the changes to PvP in New World it remains to be seen. Optional PvP is always the better option if PvP must exist.
The amazing thing is the DAoC is the only game that really got PVE and PVP right. That was until they added an expansion that afforded those that completed a long quest chain amazing PVP powers. Up until that point, even PVErs were jumping in and PVPing at times.
One way to kill a game is to give PVPers any kind of major advantage. That is one of the reasons why PVP in ESO sucks, way too many overpowered players make it difficult for the average person to enjoy it.
It is obvious this Amazon team has no clue what they are doing and have not done any research on the successes and failures of other MMOs. So, any hope that this game will be decent is a slim hope at best.
What amazing PvP powers? Realm Rank abilities or Master levels? I thought RR added meaning to PvP and I thought Master levels gave PvEers abilities that helped them in PvP.
Amazon has already stated that they found an immense amount of people ganking lowbies over and over. Of course the PvP crowd will ignore this fact and keep claiming PvP games fail because of PvE drama. Quite the opposite really as PvE crowds have little to no affect on how PvP works. If a game allows PvP, it allows PvP. The fact it doesn't allow you to gank lowbies all day just says something about the PvP crowd.
DAoC has been discussed multiple times of how PvE and PvP can work well together in a RPG progression setting. At this point, the only ones still arguing are the sociopaths.
Coming from a PvP player, I tend to agree with you. PvP players are their own worst enemy.
The issue is, most cannot see beyond their next kill. From my experience, they never consider the longevity of the game they are playing. Players that continually make life miserable for others seem to think that the "others" will continue to submit to this abuse when in reality most will not. So, as others have pointed out, the game slowly withers and dies, then the idiot moves on to the next game, all the while bitching at the devs for "killing" the game. Rinse and repeat.
I do enjoy PvP for the sake of competition I do not enjoy being repeatedly ganked because I started a few days behind a sociopath nor do I find joy in doing that to others. Friendly competition is one thing, just being a bell tip because you can, is another.
I prefer the flag system, it lets people that want to PvP do so, and doesn't force the death of the game.
DAoC is a good example imo.
You’re a pvpr too now huh?
This is getting rich lmao
I started PvPing in SWG, Reb, BH. So if you mean "now as in since the turn of the century, then yes, I guess I am. I play PvE as well, but I prefer PvP as I do enjoy the randomness that PvP brings.
Not sure what your point is other than proving you know nothing about me, but yes, I am a PvPer probably longer than you have been.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
The amazing thing is the DAoC is the only game that really got PVE and PVP right. That was until they added an expansion that afforded those that completed a long quest chain amazing PVP powers. Up until that point, even PVErs were jumping in and PVPing at times.
One way to kill a game is to give PVPers any kind of major advantage. That is one of the reasons why PVP in ESO sucks, way too many overpowered players make it difficult for the average person to enjoy it.
It is obvious this Amazon team has no clue what they are doing and have not done any research on the successes and failures of other MMOs. So, any hope that this game will be decent is a slim hope at best.
What amazing PvP powers? Realm Rank abilities or Master levels? I thought RR added meaning to PvP and I thought Master levels gave PvEers abilities that helped them in PvP.
I liked both.
Ya I don't remember a "long quest chain" with Atlantis. All it came down to was camping certain items (and scrolls?) etc So it didn't give anyone out doing RvR or stalking people in Darkness Falls an advantage. When Classic went live I was all over it until they merged it back into ToA. It wasn't about an "advantage" personally I just never liked ToA. If you were active at all on Classic you were given enough "stuff" to get all the things you needed for ToA... but if you were playing classic because you hated ToA... that "stuff" didn't matter.
There were a lot of things changed with ToA which at this point I can't even remember. Archery seems to come to mind but I wasn't playing an Archer on Classic.
The amazing thing is the DAoC is the only game that really got PVE and PVP right. That was until they added an expansion that afforded those that completed a long quest chain amazing PVP powers. Up until that point, even PVErs were jumping in and PVPing at times.
One way to kill a game is to give PVPers any kind of major advantage. That is one of the reasons why PVP in ESO sucks, way too many overpowered players make it difficult for the average person to enjoy it.
It is obvious this Amazon team has no clue what they are doing and have not done any research on the successes and failures of other MMOs. So, any hope that this game will be decent is a slim hope at best.
What amazing PvP powers? Realm Rank abilities or Master levels? I thought RR added meaning to PvP and I thought Master levels gave PvEers abilities that helped them in PvP.
I liked both.
Ya I don't remember a "long quest chain" with Atlantis. All it came down to was camping certain items (and scrolls?) etc So it didn't give anyone out doing RvR or stalking people in Darkness Falls an advantage. When Classic went live I was all over it until they merged it back into ToA. It wasn't about an "advantage" personally I just never liked ToA. If you were active at all on Classic you were given enough "stuff" to get all the things you needed for ToA... but if you were playing classic because you hated ToA... that "stuff" didn't matter.
There were a lot of things changed with ToA which at this point I can't even remember. Archery seems to come to mind but I wasn't playing an Archer on Classic.
I seem to be one of the few that really like ToA. I liked the master levels and thought the idea behind artifact gear was really cool. You're right in that it didn't do a lot for RvR but the artifacts had to be leveled in certain areas, which I thought was a cool way to bring PvE back to regions that were all but dead... and they all leveled up in the frontiers, bringing it back to RvR.
The amazing thing is the DAoC is the only game that really got PVE and PVP right. That was until they added an expansion that afforded those that completed a long quest chain amazing PVP powers. Up until that point, even PVErs were jumping in and PVPing at times.
One way to kill a game is to give PVPers any kind of major advantage. That is one of the reasons why PVP in ESO sucks, way too many overpowered players make it difficult for the average person to enjoy it.
It is obvious this Amazon team has no clue what they are doing and have not done any research on the successes and failures of other MMOs. So, any hope that this game will be decent is a slim hope at best.
What amazing PvP powers? Realm Rank abilities or Master levels? I thought RR added meaning to PvP and I thought Master levels gave PvEers abilities that helped them in PvP.
I liked both.
Bunny hoping, animation canceling, etc. Big difference between those that abuse the mechanics and those that don't.
This eternal question will never be answered to every ones satisfaction. Anyone who knows me, knows I'm a Care Bear from WAY back (fluffs Care Bear fur ^^). PvP simply doesn't mix well with PvE. First, it diverts some of the Dev teams limited time and talent away from what makes them the most money. Second, unless PvP is completely separate, the Dev team spends endless time chasing the great God "Balance". In the process. many weapons and other gear gets nerfed into the ground, to appease the PvP howlers (Look at Destiny 2 as just one nasty example of this). Third, the Goonies will ALWAYS be with us. It doesn't matter how creative the Devs think they are, this is an arms race they simply can't win, unless PvP is completely separate. For all these reasons and many more, unless its a PvP only game, adding PvP doesn't make sense.
Immersion shattering? Really? Oh, god, this is getting stupid.
The reason why most PvE players do not want to be forced to PvP is because it is wasting their time. A lot of players have limited time for their entertainment and being forced into an activity they don't enjoy on general or don't want to do at that particular moment is what is the problem.
PvP players, imagine wanting to participate in an interesting PvP battle and being forced instead to do a dungeon run at the whim of a PvE player. That is what not having the PvP toggle does to PvE players. For you the toggle means that you can PvP as much as you want as long as you want it but you cannot drag random people into your activity wasting their time when they don't want to participate.
No we don't like to be forced or maniupulated. Has nothing to do with wasting my time. I just find PvP boring and worthless.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Immersion shattering? Really? Oh, god, this is getting stupid.
The reason why most PvE players do not want to be forced to PvP is because it is wasting their time. A lot of players have limited time for their entertainment and being forced into an activity they don't enjoy on general or don't want to do at that particular moment is what is the problem.
PvP players, imagine wanting to participate in an interesting PvP battle and being forced instead to do a dungeon run at the whim of a PvE player. That is what not having the PvP toggle does to PvE players. For you the toggle means that you can PvP as much as you want as long as you want it but you cannot drag random people into your activity wasting their time when they don't want to participate.
No we don't like to be forced or maniupulated. Has nothing to do with wasting my time. I just find PvP boring and worthless.
Not having pvp loss and only having pvp gain is not balanced.
PvP balance is a farce. It will never happen and if it does, they are doing PvP wrong.
Why does someone have to lose something in order for there to be "balance"? If I kill you and gain Realm Points and exp (DAoC) and you do not, why do you then feel the need to take the persons stuff who lost in order for it to feel "balanced"? That makes no sense because it has nothing to do with balance. That's just someone who wants full loot PvP.
Comments
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
But, to be fair, that is not the fault any of the player groups.
It's entirely the fault of the Amazon dev's not having a clue about what they are doing and had not been paying attention to any of the lessons that other game companies had to learn the hard way, and, it was going to be a train wreck anyway, because given their sudden changes, it's painfully obvious they had no idea who and what demographic they were actually building for at the start.
Just my observations at this point.
Catering to all playstyles is not pvp-centric, is it? You just proved my point with your statement, so thank you.
Yah.. that sounds like a problem.
PvP servers suffer because 30% of the players(higher when pveers are included) win 30% or fewer of their engagements and tend to leave, making a new 30% of players who have no fun and leave...
Adding more bad players where nobody knows the difference solves the problem.
I know there have been miner bots made for games and monster killing bots. You could program them to try to flee from pvp encounters. Pause for a few seconds and fight badly or even competently with poor to bad equipment.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
And you're right, there was a real fear factor, because if you died out there, there was a good chance you were not going to get your body back in time.
I can't say I miss that.
One way to kill a game is to give PVPers any kind of major advantage. That is one of the reasons why PVP in ESO sucks, way too many overpowered players make it difficult for the average person to enjoy it.
It is obvious this Amazon team has no clue what they are doing and have not done any research on the successes and failures of other MMOs. So, any hope that this game will be decent is a slim hope at best.
PvP sucks in ESO because PvP in an MMORPG sucks period. It is a lost cause that should remain lost. It should not be part of the core game.
With an the changes to PvP in New World it remains to be seen. Optional PvP is always the better option if PvP must exist.
Not sure what your point is other than proving you know nothing about me, but yes, I am a PvPer probably longer than you have been.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
There were a lot of things changed with ToA which at this point I can't even remember. Archery seems to come to mind but I wasn't playing an Archer on Classic.
I know some peeps are upset by it, but I hope it's not a shit show this summer.
If it's PvE-centered then E better be damn well engaging if they want to keep players around.
Luckily, it's not going to cost me anything to find out, as I believe I snagged it when it was free.
They may change that before release also, so I'll have to research before playing.
Gut Out!
What, me worry?
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!