Can we get back to talking about CU? 'He Who Lives Under a Bridge' was probably summoned here by the delicious Whine and Cheese but you can only get rid of the creature by ignoring it.
So, wow, what an article, MMORPG.com is showing a bit of character as of late. I won't be getting a refund myself, I fully understand the risks of crowdfunding and the fact that you make a donation, I consider the money I donate to be lost immediately and when I do get something in return I am pleasantly surprised.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Look I am sorry but if you were listening to what I am saying then you would know that I am right. Either that or you don't keep up to date with MMO kickstarter news. Every single one of them has talked about getting an investor and then later they talk about how they have to find another investor. Camelot Unchained has done it 3 times.
....so you make up ridiculous premise that devs must have only 1 investor, fully funding the project(upfront, eh?) and that is why indy MMOs are doomed.
But if I am listening to you, I would know you are right... The one not listening to you is you, sir.
Look I think you are here to try to stir up drama and try to goad me into an argument. So here is what I am going to do. Block you. Feel honored your the first person to make that list.
It's a good move for your sanity. That one is an active drain on the intellectual, moral, and social climate of these forums.
Look I am sorry but if you were listening to what I am saying then you would know that I am right. Either that or you don't keep up to date with MMO kickstarter news. Every single one of them has talked about getting an investor and then later they talk about how they have to find another investor. Camelot Unchained has done it 3 times.
....so you make up ridiculous premise that devs must have only 1 investor, fully funding the project(upfront, eh?) and that is why indy MMOs are doomed.
But if I am listening to you, I would know you are right... The one not listening to you is you, sir.
Look I think you are here to try to stir up drama and try to goad me into an argument. So here is what I am going to do. Block you. Feel honored your the first person to make that list.
It's a good move for your sanity. That one is an active drain on the intellectual, moral, and social climate of these forums.
I tried to have a conversation with him but unless I am crazy he wasn't bringing any facts to the table even as he was saying I wasn't do so.
I try to have conversations with everyone even if I do see there POV on the given topic but they have to bring facts of there own.
Look I am sorry but if you were listening to what I am saying then you would know that I am right. Either that or you don't keep up to date with MMO kickstarter news. Every single one of them has talked about getting an investor and then later they talk about how they have to find another investor. Camelot Unchained has done it 3 times.
....so you make up ridiculous premise that devs must have only 1 investor, fully funding the project(upfront, eh?) and that is why indy MMOs are doomed.
But if I am listening to you, I would know you are right... The one not listening to you is you, sir.
Look I think you are here to try to stir up drama and try to goad me into an argument. So here is what I am going to do. Block you. Feel honored your the first person to make that list.
It's a good move for your sanity. That one is an active drain on the intellectual, moral, and social climate of these forums.
I tried to have a conversation with him but unless I am crazy he wasn't bringing any facts to the table even as he was saying I wasn't do so.
I try to have conversations with everyone even if I do see there POV on the given topic but they have to bring facts of there own.
He’s a legend in his own mind
This sound like anyone we know?
"I’m Better Than You and You’re a Moron Troll: This type of troll isn’t out-of-control-crazy, just more condescending and smug. This troll looks for picky things to criticize as justification for why you are an idiot with the mental capacity of a sea cucumber. These trolls will also take time to spell out specific reasons why they are too good/talented/smart to listen to you. Kristen Lamb (2012)"
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I have zero issues with them not issuing a refund. It says it right in the Tier when you sign up, no refunds. People need to stfu and just accept that they made a decision and live with that decision.
Everyone still thinking announcing Ragnarok was the intention of that stream should go watch it again. It was an engine pitch for buyout or licensing.
During the stream he says that if he came up with the idea for Ragnarok two years ago he would've done it then and regrets not thinking of it sooner. Think about that for a second, that's 5 years into the development of CU. He also says " no CU funds were used to make Ragnarok" but CU funds were used we all know to make the engine. Then he says when answering a question "CU and Rag are two diff games only the engine is the same". "No CU funds(2 mil) being used for Rag" probably because all the CU funds were already used to create the engine so what he said is wordplay/manipulation. If the engine + devs "supposedly" working on CU are now working on something else like a engine pitch tech demo then CU backers investment IS being used elsewhere and there is no gray area for that no matter how much he tries to spin it.
Lots of people say the Ragnarok engine pitch tech demo looks like garbage and he doesn't seem to care because everything in it is just placeholders showcasing what the engine can do.
If you still doubt any of what I wrote I encourage you to go to YouTube, search Camelot Unchained and search for the December CU monthly recap. In that video Ragnarok was already being worked on without anyone knowing. Notice the lack of any enthusiasm for CU as he throws random papers around trying hard to come up with anything to say, that's what deception looks like. Pretending not to be working on another game and the guilt really comes through in that video.
False in one, false in all. If he lied about the "getting beta in two years" and "launch by 2018" then it's possible the entire reason to get funds for CU was only to make an engine to sell all along. Think about what the CU backers have gotten for their 2 million dollar investment 7 years later? Not much except being able to log into a forum, test a limited pre alpha game a few times, lots of concept art and daydreaming about a game that maybe was never even being created.
True, but more to the point. A fool and his money were lucky to get together in the first place.
I guess the point of this article is to tell everyone that they only have themselves to blame?
I guess my question in all of this is:
How the heck did Jacobs and City State get financial backing for a second product when they haven't managed to deliver their first product? Sure the people who backed the Kickstarter campaign for Camelot Unchained will feel jilted by this, but the people who funding the second game are the ones who really seem to be taking the bigger risk here.
Well, just when you think things can't get any more interesting ....
Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising.
True, but more to the point. A fool and his money were lucky to get together in the first place.
I guess the point of this article is to tell everyone that they only have themselves to blame?
I guess my question in all of this is:
How the heck did Jacobs and City State get financial backing for a second product when they haven't managed to deliver their first product? Sure the people who backed the Kickstarter campaign for Camelot Unchained will feel jilted by this, but the people who funding the second game are the ones who really seem to be taking the bigger risk here.
Well, just when you think things can't get any more interesting ....
It's probably his sister backing things again. I mean, who else could he talk into it at this point? But that's just a guess.
The kickstarter paid developers lack determination. The should paint their goals and focus on them. But once they start, they begin to dream, loosing track of what they should do. Instead they do a bit of this, do a bit of that, get new ideas and dabble in additional areas. If they would keep their initial vision and finish them first, this good article would not be necessary.
Named kickstarted projects *do* have investors and fail to deliver to them. Every backer is an investor, but it is easier to ignore the dissapointment of tiny unknown investors than those of big known corporations.
Perhaps crowdfunding of certain amounts of money should be supervised more closely. It would be a shame if this cool system of funding would cease due to the work of big black sheep.
...so investors are retarded and invest into a projects that they know will never be finished?
The "?" is a clue.
(This public service does not, nor should it be assumed to express any opinion on the banter!)
I know what he’s trying to relay. I’ve been following the whole exchange. Question is how have these investors of crowdfunded mmorpg’s done so far with their investments and does the information that the investor is given differ wildly from what the person donating to the crowdfunding is given.
A smart investor will only invest an amount that they feel comfortable with. Going all in is just asking for trouble. Times this by 1000 when considering to invest in a crowdfunded mmorpg. If it was a good investment, everyone would be in.
“You got to know when to hold em, know when to fold em, know when to walk away and know when to run”
MJ has always been pretty open about the fact that they receive a steady stream of refunds. They even subtract the refunds from their crowdfunding tracker. It was over $5 million at one point and is now at $4.7 million.
Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong. Maybe this is really a brilliant job of rethinking the development process. It seems City State learned it's lesson from EA Mythic and the mighty Warhammer crater.
After the dust settled and enough time passed after the Warhammer splat, City State found a way to get a sackful of money to develop a game without a publisher or a single large investor who would put external pressure on City State to deliver a finished product within a certain time frame or insist on the return of that investment. A single investor would have long ago requested that either the product be produced or that their money be returned. By breaking up the "investments" into thousands of small increments, City State is almost immune to external pressure to finish their development process.
If a few of the small investors get antsy and ask for refunds City State can absorb the relatively small loss and still have money to continue. The vast majority of investors put up a sum small enough that they figured the risk of no game being produced was worth the minimal investment to them. People routinely throw $100 at all kinds of things that pay no dividends and the loss is something they can absorb so the vast majority will never get around to asking for their money back even if the game turns out to be a meme of the City State guys laughing at the people who gave them the money in the first place. This is besides the fact that City State is at least moderately protected from some kind of legal action by the disclaimer that everyone was warned that their investment was at risk for total loss if the game wasn't produced.
The practical reality is City State has a fully funded and nearly infinite development cycle for its game with no external pressure to deliver the product since it can always say, "We told you up front you're taking a risk that the game might not ever be produced" (something they couldn't get away with in dealing with a publisher or single large investor who would require sureties for their investment probably including a personal guarantee).
Mr. Jacobs will probably remind the investors that he put up his own money to start the project and at no time did he ever promise investors that Camelot Unchained would be the sole project of City State Studios (more is the pity those investors would say). I have no evidence that he didn't, just as I have no evidence that he didn't set that up as some kind of loan to City State to guarantee a return on his investment. City State must be turning some kind of profit somehow. You can't stay in business for almost a decade on an initial investment, so if Mr. Jacobs was smart he's long since recouped the money he fronted his own company. That would only be smart business on his part and not really subject to complaint. It's his business after all and he's in it to make a buck or two. He can run it any way he sees fit as evidenced by the latest news out of City State.
All this has been said many times before, but this is what it looks like when the chickens come home to roost. Its kind of like finding out that the friend who bummed $20.00 from you so he could go to McDonalds to get french fries for both of you, then kept your $20 and got another friend to treat him to dinner at Hooters and shows no sign of coming back with your fries. Dang, now I want french fries.
A decade is a long time to wait with bated breath, so I don't blame folks for sharpening their pitchforks.
Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising.
' Crowfall selling their untested engine, Chronicles and almost anything they do it seems).
Crowfall is selling just a license for using their in-house tool-kit for Unity Engine that is also concurrent for use in CF development. In fact, it is also an optimization piece for the existing game and is not a separate engine from unity. The latest CF patch coming in February also updates the Unity engine and this toolkit. The 4 employees assigned to the toolkit are back end engineers for the game itself... the projects are congruent in purpose. (I am a backer and investor).
DaoC was a fluke, and Mark Jacobs is taking advantage of people based on success that was pure luck.
How exactly was it a "fluke"?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
English is not a second language to me, maybe you can clarify.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
So, wow, what an article, MMORPG.com is showing a bit of character as of late. I won't be getting a refund myself, I fully understand the risks of crowdfunding and the fact that you make a donation, I consider the money I donate to be lost immediately and when I do get something in return I am pleasantly surprised.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
"I’m Better Than You and You’re a Moron Troll: This type of troll isn’t out-of-control-crazy, just more condescending and smug. This troll looks for picky things to criticize as justification for why you are an idiot with the mental capacity of a sea cucumber. These trolls will also take time to spell out specific reasons why they are too good/talented/smart to listen to you. Kristen Lamb (2012)"
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Namely:
To which @Gdemami replied:
...so investors are retarded and invest into a projects that they know will never be finished?
The "?" is a clue.
(This public service does not, nor should it be assumed to express any opinion on the banter!)
During the stream he says that if he came up with the idea for Ragnarok two years ago he would've done it then and regrets not thinking of it sooner. Think about that for a second, that's 5 years into the development of CU. He also says " no CU funds were used to make Ragnarok" but CU funds were used we all know to make the engine. Then he says when answering a question "CU and Rag are two diff games only the engine is the same". "No CU funds(2 mil) being used for Rag" probably because all the CU funds were already used to create the engine so what he said is wordplay/manipulation. If the engine + devs "supposedly" working on CU are now working on something else like a engine pitch tech demo then CU backers investment IS being used elsewhere and there is no gray area for that no matter how much he tries to spin it.
Lots of people say the Ragnarok engine pitch tech demo looks like garbage and he doesn't seem to care because everything in it is just placeholders showcasing what the engine can do.
If you still doubt any of what I wrote I encourage you to go to YouTube, search Camelot Unchained and search for the December CU monthly recap. In that video Ragnarok was already being worked on without anyone knowing. Notice the lack of any enthusiasm for CU as he throws random papers around trying hard to come up with anything to say, that's what deception looks like. Pretending not to be working on another game and the guilt really comes through in that video.
False in one, false in all. If he lied about the "getting beta in two years" and "launch by 2018" then it's possible the entire reason to get funds for CU was only to make an engine to sell all along. Think about what the CU backers have gotten for their 2 million dollar investment 7 years later? Not much except being able to log into a forum, test a limited pre alpha game a few times, lots of concept art and daydreaming about a game that maybe was never even being created.
True, but more to the point. A fool and his money were lucky to get together in the first place. I guess the point of this article is to tell everyone that they only have themselves to blame? I guess my question in all of this is: How the heck did Jacobs and City State get financial backing for a second product when they haven't managed to deliver their first product? Sure the people who backed the Kickstarter campaign for Camelot Unchained will feel jilted by this, but the people who funding the second game are the ones who really seem to be taking the bigger risk here. Well, just when you think things can't get any more interesting ....
Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising.
Named kickstarted projects *do* have investors and fail to deliver to them. Every backer is an investor, but it is easier to ignore the dissapointment of tiny unknown investors than those of big known corporations.
Perhaps crowdfunding of certain amounts of money should be supervised more closely. It would be a shame if this cool system of funding would cease due to the work of big black sheep.
Clan Hispania
@Arterius
A smart investor will only invest an amount that they feel comfortable with. Going all in is just asking for trouble. Times this by 1000 when considering to invest in a crowdfunded mmorpg. If it was a good investment, everyone would be in.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
https://i.imgur.com/SmeABo7.png
If you want to know scammers... take a look at the Red Cross
https://ashesofcreation.com/r/Y4U3PQCASUPJ5SED
After the dust settled and enough time passed after the Warhammer splat, City State found a way to get a sackful of money to develop a game without a publisher or a single large investor who would put external pressure on City State to deliver a finished product within a certain time frame or insist on the return of that investment. A single investor would have long ago requested that either the product be produced or that their money be returned. By breaking up the "investments" into thousands of small increments, City State is almost immune to external pressure to finish their development process.
If a few of the small investors get antsy and ask for refunds City State can absorb the relatively small loss and still have money to continue. The vast majority of investors put up a sum small enough that they figured the risk of no game being produced was worth the minimal investment to them. People routinely throw $100 at all kinds of things that pay no dividends and the loss is something they can absorb so the vast majority will never get around to asking for their money back even if the game turns out to be a meme of the City State guys laughing at the people who gave them the money in the first place. This is besides the fact that City State is at least moderately protected from some kind of legal action by the disclaimer that everyone was warned that their investment was at risk for total loss if the game wasn't produced.
The practical reality is City State has a fully funded and nearly infinite development cycle for its game with no external pressure to deliver the product since it can always say, "We told you up front you're taking a risk that the game might not ever be produced" (something they couldn't get away with in dealing with a publisher or single large investor who would require sureties for their investment probably including a personal guarantee).
Mr. Jacobs will probably remind the investors that he put up his own money to start the project and at no time did he ever promise investors that Camelot Unchained would be the sole project of City State Studios (more is the pity those investors would say). I have no evidence that he didn't, just as I have no evidence that he didn't set that up as some kind of loan to City State to guarantee a return on his investment. City State must be turning some kind of profit somehow. You can't stay in business for almost a decade on an initial investment, so if Mr. Jacobs was smart he's long since recouped the money he fronted his own company. That would only be smart business on his part and not really subject to complaint. It's his business after all and he's in it to make a buck or two. He can run it any way he sees fit as evidenced by the latest news out of City State.
All this has been said many times before, but this is what it looks like when the chickens come home to roost. Its kind of like finding out that the friend who bummed $20.00 from you so he could go to McDonalds to get french fries for both of you, then kept your $20 and got another friend to treat him to dinner at Hooters and shows no sign of coming back with your fries. Dang, now I want french fries.
A decade is a long time to wait with bated breath, so I don't blame folks for sharpening their pitchforks.
Many a small thing has been made large by the right kind of advertising.
Crowfall is selling just a license for using their in-house tool-kit for Unity Engine that is also concurrent for use in CF development. In fact, it is also an optimization piece for the existing game and is not a separate engine from unity. The latest CF patch coming in February also updates the Unity engine and this toolkit. The 4 employees assigned to the toolkit are back end engineers for the game itself... the projects are congruent in purpose. (I am a backer and investor).
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED