RPGs and Stories

AlBQuirky

I've been reacquainting myself with the Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic games this past month (Holy Cow, do mods bring these games up to date well!). I've been watching CohhCarnage play them on Twitch along with playing my own games. Cohh plays differently than I do, but there are certainly similarities, too.

One thing that pops out is, as Cohh put it, "I want the best story I can get." This leads to "gaming the game" where you save and reload often, seeking "the correct" dialogue responses. Is this counterproductive?

In KotOR specifically, there certain rules one must follow. Don't talk to Bastilla after she kisses you in KotOR 1, if you want her romance option to go further. Get The Handmaiden on your side before talking to Visas in KotOR 2, if you want Handmaiden's best option.

Then you have "influence" with your party members, based on your dialogue options with them. This means that playing lightside will have you miss out on your darkside companions, and vice versa. Playing gray will halt your progress at some point with all.

Don't get me wrong, KotOR has some of the best video game writing I have ever played (opinion). But I find myself wondering about the gamification of the stories.

Am I alone here, or do others find themselves doing this, too? If so, are there other games that you find yourself seeking "the best" outcomes in dialogues?

Sovrath

AlBQuirky said:

Am I alone here, or do others find themselves doing this, too? If so, are there other games that you find yourself seeking "the best" outcomes in dialogues?

Since it's a single player game it doesn't matter.

If a game is great I can stand to play it a few times and see what the other story options are.

If a game is "good" for me, and I'm enjoying it, then I kind of want the story I want because I'm probably not going to replay it.

In the end, the care games but they can also be viewed as toys. If a person wants to cheat in his/her own game or reload in order to skew the outcomes then that's ok because it's their own enjoyment.

In Oblvion, since I always did the Bruma quest at a very high level, once I stopped the daedric war engine I'd come out to find everyone dead since all the daedra are too high for the town.

For the first playthrough it was a sobering experience. For the subsequent ones I did a small mod where I gave myself a spell that upped the health and armor of everyone in some huge radius. My story for that is my Elder Scrolls character is the same character for every game. Being the reincarnation of the Neravarine has its advantages.

So I have this ability and yadda, yadda, yadda, I use it. I called it Hero's Blessing.

Now more people than no people are alive. I'm fine with the result and it's an enjoyable experience.

So yeah, players should do what they want in order to maximize their enjoyment.

To that end, my friend who only plays elder scrolls games takes it where it lies. If an npc dies or an outcome happens he just rolls with it.

Palebane

I think exploring choices without ideal outcomes is much more entertaining, personally. As stated above, if I’m going to be spending more time with a game, I often use guides to get desired outcomes, proper builds, etc. Ironically I do end up spending a lot more time with games that employ this mechanic, not because Im a completionist, but because variety is the spice of life. Part curiosity and part admiration for the game/story itself; If a game can get me curious about alternate outcomes, thats a big hook for me, but I also enjoy going with the flow or having a preset idea of what my character is like and how they would act and respond (consequences be damned), especially on the first playthrough.

Lord.Bachus

GW2 offers some choices that atleast matter a little..

but for the rest? 

Where it comes to story quallity i think LOTRO, ESO, FF14 and The secret world stand out for story quallity.

not much interaction tough..

botrytis

Lord.Bachus said:

GW2 offers some choices that atleast matter a little..

but for the rest? 

Where it comes to story quallity i think LOTRO, ESO, FF14 and The secret world stand out for story quallity.

not much interaction tough..

GW2 is OK with story, mostly the original PS but Trahearne made me hate the game. LOTRO is really the only story MMO. FF, ESO and TSW all are mediocre as far as story to me. None of them engaged me or made me want to play the game to move on. Most of the time I was like 'Really? That is lame.'

Po_gg

botrytis said:

LOTRO is really the only story MMO. FF, ESO and TSW all are mediocre as far as story to me.

I hold LotRO and TSW on the same level, just by a different narrative method (but I did countless posts on that, rather not repeat them )

Lord.Bachus said:

GW2 offers some choices that atleast matter a little..

but for the rest?

Choices, let alone meaningful and also lasting choices, that's a tough nut to crack in MMORPGs. Not technically, don't get me wrong, but for the player reception...

AoC tried it, with big red warning text around: people ended up on the "wrong" path due whatever reasons (from ignorance and "I don't read quests" to deliberate decisions turn out differently they've expected), people cursed, yelled, prepared for lynching, AoC got rid of those quest choices.

LotRO tried it with first year of Frostbluff (a really great storyline though, I hesitated to put it on my post in the "Best quests" thread), surrounded with big red warnings about your choice is final, siding with the corrupt mayor for riches, or helping the poor townsfolk. Sure they could only offer some rags, but it was a christmas content FFS...

I think I even had a post here about it, how disappointed I was when saw all those people in the mayor's rewarded outfit. "Just a game, of course I choose the goodies!"

And then, several months later the helpful players got a heartfelt letter from the townsfolk, who managed to put Frostbluff on the right track, economy is good, so they've sent a robe of thanks. Which was an awesome closure of the storyline btw.

Except all the Misers (the mayor helpers) went into rage mode, and demanded a change, so next winter Turbine had to change it into replayable, and with it the meaningful choice was gone...

TSW tried it too, with your choices in the Dreamscape resulted which ultimate ability your character got at the end of the main story. The three powers were pretty much the same, still, players were into rage mode if they didn't get the one they thought the best, and demanded an option to change it...

Different outcomes and meaningful choices are great for singleplayer games -and just an opinion I believe it's great for online too-, but most online players are conditioned otherwise. Retrains, gear swaps, etc. nothing is really permanent there, especially not story decisions...

Po_gg

All the babbling above and the "only" thing I forgot is the OP...

AlBQuirky said:

Am I alone here, or do others find themselves doing this, too? If so, are there other games that you find yourself seeking "the best" outcomes in dialogues?

Definitely not alone, I love to explore all endings and different paths in adventure/RPG games. Heck, even in GTAs

Reminds me, an another good candidate for the "Best quest" thread, from the singleplayer side, the storyline of Therese and Jeanette in VtM: Bloodlines. Multiple outcomes, and even a "hidden" one, only available for Malkavian characters, which was a really good idea.

If you really like different paths and endings, check Shadow of Memories. The story is literally built around that mechanic, with each ending you learn more and will be able to reach the "real" ending. I rarely praise console games, but Konami really did something unique with that piece.

AlBQuirky

botrytis said:

Lord.Bachus said:

GW2 offers some choices that atleast matter a little..

but for the rest? 

Where it comes to story quallity i think LOTRO, ESO, FF14 and The secret world stand out for story quallity.

not much interaction tough..

GW2 is OK with story, mostly the original PS but Trahearne made me hate the game. LOTRO is really the only story MMO. FF, ESO and TSW all are mediocre as far as story to me. None of them engaged me or made me want to play the game to move on. Most of the time I was like 'Really? That is lame.'

I was aiming more towards single player RPGs since "save scumming" is not possible in MMORPGs. But thanks for your input

AlBQuirky

Sovrath said:

AlBQuirky said:

Am I alone here, or do others find themselves doing this, too? If so, are there other games that you find yourself seeking "the best" outcomes in dialogues?

Since it's a single player game it doesn't matter.

If a game is great I can stand to play it a few times and see what the other story options are.

If a game is "good" for me, and I'm enjoying it, then I kind of want the story I want because I'm probably not going to replay it.

In the end, the care games but they can also be viewed as toys. If a person wants to cheat in his/her own game or reload in order to skew the outcomes then that's ok because it's their own enjoyment.

In Oblvion, since I always did the Bruma quest at a very high level, once I stopped the daedric war engine I'd come out to find everyone dead since all the daedra are too high for the town.

For the first playthrough it was a sobering experience. For the subsequent ones I did a small mod where I gave myself a spell that upped the health and armor of everyone in some huge radius. My story for that is my Elder Scrolls character is the same character for every game. Being the reincarnation of the Neravarine has its advantages.

So I have this ability and yadda, yadda, yadda, I use it. I called it Hero's Blessing.

Now more people than no people are alive. I'm fine with the result and it's an enjoyable experience.

So yeah, players should do what they want in order to maximize their enjoyment.

To that end, my friend who only plays elder scrolls games takes it where it lies. If an npc dies or an outcome happens he just rolls with it.

I always start out trying to "go with the flow" of conversations, but then I say something that *I* think is where I want to go and suddenly, the devs disagree with me and I've come to a screeching halt on that particular dialogue path. It becomes more of a guessing game ("What do the devs want here?") than an actual interaction between my character and their buddies.

And sometimes, like your Oblivion example, the game doesn't seem to "keep up" with that you're doing. Modding that makes perfect sense to me

DafAtRandom

I think I may be in the minority, in that in today's day and age with New Game+, you usually can rectify your "bad ending".

So what I'll usually do, is play a game on my own for the first playthrough.  Then if I don't get the best ending, I'll restart in New Game+ where you usually keep some or all of your advantages and follow a guide at that point to ensure I see the best ending.

That's exactly what happened with me with Persona 4 Golden, which was my first Persona game, so I didn't know exactly what I was doing, especially at the start of the game.  So came the game's ending and I didn't know who the killer was !! So I got a shitty ending, started the game again as New Game+ and followed a guide, and after a total of 143 hours, I experienced "my" ending as well as the best possible one.

alkarionlog

AlBQuirky said:

I've been reacquainting myself with the Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic games this past month (Holy Cow, do mods bring these games up to date well!). I've been watching CohhCarnage play them on Twitch along with playing my own games. Cohh plays differently than I do, but there are certainly similarities, too.

One thing that pops out is, as Cohh put it, "I want the best story I can get." This leads to "gaming the game" where you save and reload often, seeking "the correct" dialogue responses. Is this counterproductive?

In KotOR specifically, there certain rules one must follow. Don't talk to Bastilla after she kisses you in KotOR 1, if you want her romance option to go further. Get The Handmaiden on your side before talking to Visas in KotOR 2, if you want Handmaiden's best option.

Then you have "influence" with your party members, based on your dialogue options with them. This means that playing lightside will have you miss out on your darkside companions, and vice versa. Playing gray will halt your progress at some point with all.

Don't get me wrong, KotOR has some of the best video game writing I have ever played (opinion). But I find myself wondering about the gamification of the stories.

Am I alone here, or do others find themselves doing this, too? If so, are there other games that you find yourself seeking "the best" outcomes in dialogues?

strange I don't remember this things with bastila on kotor 1 and in kotor 2, though in kotor 2 everyone in that group was a jedi when I ended...

I can't really say I look for the best outcome, I do what I would normally do, and I still always get the best outcome, lowering or absolve evil chars, and leading then to do better

AlBQuirky

alkarionlog said:

AlBQuirky said:

I've been reacquainting myself with the Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic games this past month (Holy Cow, do mods bring these games up to date well!). I've been watching CohhCarnage play them on Twitch along with playing my own games. Cohh plays differently than I do, but there are certainly similarities, too.

One thing that pops out is, as Cohh put it, "I want the best story I can get." This leads to "gaming the game" where you save and reload often, seeking "the correct" dialogue responses. Is this counterproductive?

In KotOR specifically, there certain rules one must follow. Don't talk to Bastilla after she kisses you in KotOR 1, if you want her romance option to go further. Get The Handmaiden on your side before talking to Visas in KotOR 2, if you want Handmaiden's best option.

Then you have "influence" with your party members, based on your dialogue options with them. This means that playing lightside will have you miss out on your darkside companions, and vice versa. Playing gray will halt your progress at some point with all.

Don't get me wrong, KotOR has some of the best video game writing I have ever played (opinion). But I find myself wondering about the gamification of the stories.

Am I alone here, or do others find themselves doing this, too? If so, are there other games that you find yourself seeking "the best" outcomes in dialogues?

strange I don't remember this things with bastila on kotor 1 and in kotor 2, though in kotor 2 everyone in that group was a jedi when I ended...

I can't really say I look for the best outcome, I do what I would normally do, and I still always get the best outcome, lowering or absolve evil chars, and leading then to do better

There were also "Character X needs to go to this planet with you" in order to further their own stories, like Carth and his Sith son on Korriban, or Atton and his connection to Nar Shadda in KotOR 1. If you miss these party members, their stories go haywire.

It's not really "the best" outcomes I'm seeking, but more of what I described in my reply to Sovrath. I choose a dialogue option that I think will accomplish what I want, only to find out it did something totally unexpected, and alters what I was looking for with that companion.

Mendel

I think I play RPGs differently at different times.  On a first play through, I prefer to make the dialog choices that fit my character's (and my own) ethics.  Only on a second time through the game will I try alternative choices.

I tend to get very tired of games that allow me to choose all dialog choices.  Pathfinder does this, and I find myself playing for a few days, then leaving the game alone for a few weeks.  I think developers just put some of the dialog choices in to put in quips and sayings they personally like, nothing at all to do with the character I'm talking with.  These frequently do nothing to advance the story, or cause any reaction from the NPC.  If an NPC doesn't react when I choose the "threaten them" option, that almost always breaks immersion.  Bad characterization is one symptom of bad writing.

alkarionlog

AlBQuirky said:

alkarionlog said:

AlBQuirky said:

I've been reacquainting myself with the Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic games this past month (Holy Cow, do mods bring these games up to date well!). I've been watching CohhCarnage play them on Twitch along with playing my own games. Cohh plays differently than I do, but there are certainly similarities, too.

One thing that pops out is, as Cohh put it, "I want the best story I can get." This leads to "gaming the game" where you save and reload often, seeking "the correct" dialogue responses. Is this counterproductive?

In KotOR specifically, there certain rules one must follow. Don't talk to Bastilla after she kisses you in KotOR 1, if you want her romance option to go further. Get The Handmaiden on your side before talking to Visas in KotOR 2, if you want Handmaiden's best option.

Then you have "influence" with your party members, based on your dialogue options with them. This means that playing lightside will have you miss out on your darkside companions, and vice versa. Playing gray will halt your progress at some point with all.

Don't get me wrong, KotOR has some of the best video game writing I have ever played (opinion). But I find myself wondering about the gamification of the stories.

Am I alone here, or do others find themselves doing this, too? If so, are there other games that you find yourself seeking "the best" outcomes in dialogues?

strange I don't remember this things with bastila on kotor 1 and in kotor 2, though in kotor 2 everyone in that group was a jedi when I ended...

I can't really say I look for the best outcome, I do what I would normally do, and I still always get the best outcome, lowering or absolve evil chars, and leading then to do better

There were also "Character X needs to go to this planet with you" in order to further their own stories, like Carth and his Sith son on Korriban, or Atton and his connection to Nar Shadda in KotOR 1. If you miss these party members, their stories go haywire.

It's not really "the best" outcomes I'm seeking, but more of what I described in my reply to Sovrath. I choose a dialogue option that I think will accomplish what I want, only to find out it did something totally unexpected, and alters what I was looking for with that companion.

his kid, yes I did made him quit the korriban, atton is kotor 2 though, and he was a jedi killer, I learned him pazzak trick and made him a jedi, thing is, I always read and didn't care much for who would follow me, so doing the companion quests was never really a problem, and in kotor combat was dirty easy with my jedi guardian, force jump and flurry kill too fast, I killed adds too fast to even my companion act

rojoArcueid

AlBQuirky said:

Am I alone here, or do others find themselves doing this, too? If so, are there other games that you find yourself seeking "the best" outcomes in dialogues?

You are not alone. I would not play the Witcher series without a small guide to both romance and how to keep certain NPCs alive. The game is so long and the player dialog choices so random that you choose the wrong answer somewhere in the beginning you might not see a harsh outcome until almost the end of the game which is already too far to reload a previous save file.

Those choices are good because they add a lot of replayability, but with so many games to play i want to get the best outcome possible in my first playthough because i don't know when i'll have the chance to replay the same game.

EDIT: I treat Mass Effect and Dragon Age the same as the Witcher. If i get to bond with a character because of how well written it is, i wont move on until i make the right decision and keep them alive.

AlBQuirky

Mendel said:

I think I play RPGs differently at different times.  On a first play through, I prefer to make the dialog choices that fit my character's (and my own) ethics.  Only on a second time through the game will I try alternative choices.

I tend to get very tired of games that allow me to choose all dialog choices.  Pathfinder does this, and I find myself playing for a few days, then leaving the game alone for a few weeks.  I think developers just put some of the dialog choices in to put in quips and sayings they personally like, nothing at all to do with the character I'm talking with.  These frequently do nothing to advance the story, or cause any reaction from the NPC.  If an NPC doesn't react when I choose the "threaten them" option, that almost always breaks immersion.  Bad characterization is one symptom of bad writing.

I thought about this more and try to play the same way. I'm not so pressed to play games that I feel rushed at all, so the first time through, I try to play my character the way I envision them. It is the subsequent play throughs that I start to "fret"

The dialogues that "reset" so you can ask everything bugs me, too. You piss off a character, hit the "I have more questions." choice, and suddenly they're all talkative again. :ugh:

Amathe

I find thet playing mmorpgs (at least the way I play them) has kind of ruined single player RPGs for me. Sadly, I focus a lot more now on character power/item acquisition than I do the RPG's story.

It's not that I ignore the story. It's that I have another focus- rewards. In a dialogue choice, I will be trying to anticipate what choice is more rewarding, not what choice seems most apprpriate to my character.

I'm not proud of this, mind you.

Erevus

You bring back memories !!!! How heavenly was back then where you form a gang in ye old mmorpgs and go pk each newbie and then the newbie became your pet to protect himself and becoming a modern day slave. Now THAT was role playing.

cameltosis

In roleplaying games with story choices, my usual method is to decide on what sort of role I am playing and then, you know, play it.

That usually means I'll choose to be pretty brutal to my enemies, never letting them off or causing them pain whenever the story lets me, whilst also being fiercely loyal to any friends and also being protective of the innocent. Most of the time, that means walking the centre line, living in the grey area. But, story choices usually don't affect anything other than the story, so playing through it once is enough for me.

The KOTOR games are a different matter. The lightside/darkside choices directly affected the gameplay, either by opening up new skills or allowing your companions to go down new routes and become jedi themselves.

I never bothered trying to game the system in order to get my companions to romance me or become jedi - I hate companions in general, as well as story, so I was never gonna waste that effort - but I did play through KOTOR 2 a few times. First time I played it, I did as I said above: chose a role and then played it. Second time, I went full lightside, third time, full darkside. Going to either extreme trivialised the game. Full lightside basically made me unkillable, but combat was slow so it was pretty boring. Full darkside meant everything around me just melting, and it was quick.

In SWTOR, I just went full darkside (as a jedi) from day 1, because the choices were meaningless in terms of rewards, gameplay or story. So, it was better to go either full light or full dark in order to unlock the best crystals and maintain the cosmetic effect of being full darkside.

In more general terms, if there is a "best" outcome, in terms of rewards or mechanics, then I will almost always choose that option. I really couldn't give a shit about story, but if there is a clear reward for choosing something then I'll take it. Luckily, it's rare that a choice is clearly marked as being the best, so I'm free to continue roleplaying.

AlBQuirky

Amathe said:

I find thet playing mmorpgs (at least the way I play them) has kind of ruined single player RPGs for me. Sadly, I focus a lot more now on character power/item acquisition than I do the RPG's story.

It's not that I ignore the story. It's that I have another focus- rewards. In a dialogue choice, I will be trying to anticipate what choice is more rewarding, not what choice seems most apprpriate to my character.

I'm not proud of this, mind you.

That's how CohhCarnage plays, too. Every RPG he plays is a lootfest with optimal character builds. Not that this is "wrong", just different. I can totally see what you're saying, too

Ungood

This made me think of many of my old D&D games I used play, and all too often players would only want to roll 20's, or seek the best outcomes, but when it came to a roleplayer, you needed to know how to role with the 1's as well as the 20's, because that is how the game plays.

In that regard, while I like lore and story, I will just role with whatever choices I made, and as long as I can continue the game, I will keep playing. If my choices ended me, then I will restart, and often the second time around, I will make different choices just for the hell of it.

Wizardry

I do not watch Cohh,he is a sellout that gets paid to endorse games.Angry Joe or more so Delrith has become the same and losing credibility.

Yes i do enjoy a great story but outside of FF10 i have yet to see another great story.Sad when i see a game like FFVII as the most popular ever but the story is imo crap and all over the place.I have no idea what most people are looking for from games because popularity seems to win over anything else.
I actually enjoyed doing the story stuff inside of the mmorpg FFXI as well,the cutscenes which Square Enix is usually really good at in all their games.Many of us remember the days of Baldur's gate but that was not great story telling that was simply giving characters a fun personality so we could easily identify with each character.

When comes to alternate stories,i do not like the idea of a BEST story,just script a great one and that is the winning ticket for me.Trying to cheat systems is usually NOT related to the story but more so to get a better outcome/reward.I would be more akin to simply enjoying various story routes than trying to min max the results.

Aeander

I usually just try to stay in character.

And that character is usually the most flippant, snarky douchebag in the universe. Always go with the sarcastic answers. 

kitarad

I read stuff online to make sure I get the outcome I want. If one character might die if I'll go talk to another character first to make sure the character that might die has all the quests completed. I do this all the time because I seldom replay games so I read and find out what are the crucial points that need certain dialogue options and pick those so that when I have done playing the game I am done and have the best outcome or the outcome I like best. I dislike going through a game and discover I made a mistake in act 1 in act 4.

Scot

Well as that sort of gameplay is a choice, a choice you could get wrong so it has been largely removed from RPG's. Remember a player must now days not feel any frustration, any sense he made a wrong choice, unless it is super easy to rectify. This is not strange really, if you only knew the power of the easymode side.

I would be interested to know of any RPG's out in the last five years where you could still make these sort of choices, a dying breed.

Po_gg

Scot said:

Remember a player must now days not feel any frustration, any sense he made a wrong choice, unless it is super easy to rectify. This is not strange really, if you only knew the power of the easymode side.

Awesome one   even moreso since anger, fear (of screwing up) and hate (the other players) lead these youngster padawans to the easymode side.

Last five year is a bit short, TSW was more than seven years ago and was maybe the last one where you could -at the start, for temporarily and just mildy- wreck your build, and even that minuscule barrier caused a lot of angry voices, rage quits, demand of a respec, etc. 

No matter how many times it was said they only need to play a bit more, and will be able to fix all of those early mishaps...

That was leading to the spoonfed "choose your class" design with the crap Legends relaunch.