Well as that sort of gameplay is a choice, a choice you could get wrong so it has been largely removed from RPG's. Remember a player must now days not feel any frustration, any sense he made a wrong choice, unless it is super easy to rectify. This is not strange really, if you only knew the power of the easymode side.
I would be interested to know of any RPG's out in the last five years where you could still make these sort of choices, a dying breed.
That's a really good point, Scot!
I haven't gotten around to playing these games yet, but what about Pathfinder: Kingmaker or Pillars of Eternity 2? Did they have any "hard choices?" They're both heralded as great RPGs.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I just like running around and killing stuff and exploring...i can do without the story in just about any game.
I like that, too. There are a few games, though, where the stories and companions are truly amazing and KotOR is one (two?) of them.
And sometimes, those stories can get in the way of good gameplay
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Well as that sort of gameplay is a choice, a choice you could get wrong so it has been largely removed from RPG's. Remember a player must now days not feel any frustration, any sense he made a wrong choice, unless it is super easy to rectify. This is not strange really, if you only knew the power of the easymode side.
I would be interested to know of any RPG's out in the last five years where you could still make these sort of choices, a dying breed.
That's a really good point, Scot!
I haven't gotten around to playing these games yet, but what about Pathfinder: Kingmaker or Pillars of Eternity 2? Did they have any "hard choices?" They're both heralded as great RPGs.
Not played either of those yet, but they are on my wish list I think. All I can say is that it will be a major turn of direction if PoE 2 has a hard choice.
Not played either of those yet, but they are on my wish list I think. All I can say is that it will be a major turn of direction if PoE 2 has a hard choice.
I thought you mean just MMORPGs Al, and I agree with Scot - sure, I only know Pillars. Plan to pick Pathfinder on this month's Humble though.
Neither of them are a good fit overall (classes, and party-based), but if you're only interested in the choice part of the question, then the answer is no.
They do offer a metric ton of options and variations, like good RPGs do, but there are no "hard" ones, or at least not on the level you asked. The classes alone serve as a good barrier against that.
Theoretically it might be possible to make a really bad character with a totally lacking group composition, but just as an exception and not as something "common", or business as usual.
On general you can make your character and party any way you like and you might have different outcomes and paths and gameplay, but you will have fun and get to the end.
You can't really fail - on the wider scale I mean. Sure, you can lose fights here and there, close off entire story parts with a bad move, but "hard choice" in the form of a badly built character or a wrong story decision "kills" the game for you, that is simply not there.
Mind you, it wasn't there in the past either, since "hard choice" is just in the player's (especially these "new gamers") perceptions. You couldn't really wreck your character or adventure in tabletops either, but you could make bad decisions, and then live (and play forward) with the consequences.
Just recently the gamers don't want to live with that. So at first the consequences were toned down, but the new gamers were still dissatisfied, yelling choice anxiety / paradox of choice, etc. thus eventually devs just simply started to remove those nasty choices and streamline everything.
(just added this last paragraph to emphasis Pillars of Eternity and Pathfinder (at least based on what I know about it) are still great RPGs, regardless of you can't really wreck the game with bad choices.)
Not played either of those yet, but they are on my wish list I think. All I can say is that it will be a major turn of direction if PoE 2 has a hard choice.
I thought you mean just MMORPGs Al, and I agree with Scot - sure, I only know Pillars. Plan to pick Pathfinder on this month's Humble though.
Neither of them are a good fit overall (classes, and party-based), but if you're only interested in the choice part of the question, then the answer is no.
They do offer a metric ton of options and variations, like good RPGs do, but there are no "hard" ones, or at least not on the level you asked. The classes alone serve as a good barrier against that.
Theoretically it might be possible to make a really bad character with a totally lacking group composition, but just as an exception and not as something "common", or business as usual.
On general you can make your character and party any way you like and you might have different outcomes and paths and gameplay, but you will have fun and get to the end.
You can't really fail - on the wider scale I mean. Sure, you can lose fights here and there, close off entire story parts with a bad move, but "hard choice" in the form of a badly built character or a wrong story decision "kills" the game for you, that is simply not there.
Mind you, it wasn't there in the past either, since "hard choice" is just in the player's (especially these "new gamers") perceptions. You couldn't really wreck your character or adventure in tabletops either, but you could make bad decisions, and then live (and play forward) with the consequences.
Just recently the gamers don't want to live with that. So at first the consequences were toned down, but the new gamers were still dissatisfied, yelling choice anxiety / paradox of choice, etc. thus eventually devs just simply started to remove those nasty choices and streamline everything.
(just added this last paragraph to emphasis Pillars of Eternity and Pathfinder (at least based on what I know about it) are still great RPGs, regardless of you can't really wreck the game with bad choices.)
In MMOs the sort of choice I am thinking of is where you pick one of two sides to ally with, say a couple of tribes fighting each other. By doing the side you picks quests and killing huge numbers of the opposite faction you get access to a skill line, different for each faction. That means you could later decide your skill line is not the best one, it could take months to change to the other side if you could at all. That's a "wrong" choice that causes frustration etc.
And that character is usually the most flippant, snarky douchebag in the universe. Always go with the sarcastic answers.
I try to be good mostly but weirdly enough when I played a Jedi knight in SWTOR I picked the evil choices making my inherently good character progressively dark. It gave me a strange sense of elation to do so. I didn't like the mass slaughter choices and that part made me hesitate and I changed my mind and didn't do it. I think I have a hero complex of sorts. Most games I try to be ambivalent or slightly evil but never go full on evil. I don't think I can take that route. I dislike being hated by others.
I am aware that it is a game but I simply find it against the grain to try to be a complete arsehole even in a game. I like saving people or trying to do only slightly evil stuff and even if it is an anaemic play style I cannot seem to break out of that mold.
Not played either of those yet, but they are on my wish list I think. All I can say is that it will be a major turn of direction if PoE 2 has a hard choice.
I thought you mean just MMORPGs Al, and I agree with Scot - sure, I only know Pillars. Plan to pick Pathfinder on this month's Humble though.
Neither of them are a good fit overall (classes, and party-based), but if you're only interested in the choice part of the question, then the answer is no.
They do offer a metric ton of options and variations, like good RPGs do, but there are no "hard" ones, or at least not on the level you asked. The classes alone serve as a good barrier against that.
Theoretically it might be possible to make a really bad character with a totally lacking group composition, but just as an exception and not as something "common", or business as usual.
On general you can make your character and party any way you like and you might have different outcomes and paths and gameplay, but you will have fun and get to the end.
You can't really fail - on the wider scale I mean. Sure, you can lose fights here and there, close off entire story parts with a bad move, but "hard choice" in the form of a badly built character or a wrong story decision "kills" the game for you, that is simply not there.
Mind you, it wasn't there in the past either, since "hard choice" is just in the player's (especially these "new gamers") perceptions. You couldn't really wreck your character or adventure in tabletops either, but you could make bad decisions, and then live (and play forward) with the consequences.
Just recently the gamers don't want to live with that. So at first the consequences were toned down, but the new gamers were still dissatisfied, yelling choice anxiety / paradox of choice, etc. thus eventually devs just simply started to remove those nasty choices and streamline everything.
(just added this last paragraph to emphasis Pillars of Eternity and Pathfinder (at least based on what I know about it) are still great RPGs, regardless of you can't really wreck the game with bad choices.)
The choices I was thinking of were more dialogue/story based. KotOR 1 & 2 both have "classes" that are fun to mess around with, but really can't "screw up", so to speak.
I was thinking of speaking with Kreia in KotOR 2 and the many times I had to think through my response before choosing them. The fine line between agreeing/disagreeing with her views or challenging them. Or guessing how far to go "flirty" with Bastilla in KotOR 1.
Don't worry about the MMORPG mix-up. It happens
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
And that character is usually the most flippant, snarky douchebag in the universe. Always go with the sarcastic answers.
I try to be good mostly but weirdly enough when I played a Jedi knight in SWTOR I picked the evil choices making my inherently good character progressively dark. It gave me a strange sense of elation to do so. I didn't like the mass slaughter choices and that part made me hesitate and I changed my mind and didn't do it. I think I have a hero complex of sorts. Most games I try to be ambivalent or slightly evil but never go full on evil. I don't think I can take that route. I dislike being hated by others.
I am aware that it is a game but I simply find it against the grain to try to be a complete arsehole even in a game. I like saving people or trying to do only slightly evil stuff and even if it is an anaemic play style I cannot seem to break out of that mold.
I find no "fun" at all in being evil. Most of the time, it is written as just being a dick to everyone. I actually enjoy "being helpful."
I wanted to see what the "Evil Jedi Robes" were like at the end of KotOR 1 so I had Zaalbar kill Mission just after landing on the final planet. Once I got the robes, I logged out and deleted that save file. I couldn't boot the game back up for about a week afterwards
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I find replaying sections, peeking behind the curtains so to speak, to be illusion shattering. I never, ever replay rpgs or any other kind of game to make different choices and see what happens then.
My last story heavy game is Detroit: Become Human which is literally a ‘make your own story as you go along’ game where things can horribly wrong and main characters can die. Because of this it is an incredibly powerful experience, but you have to embrace the illusion for it to work. Playing this game once means I will miss out on tons of content, on the other hand, the story I played through is my story and my experience alone, undiluted.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Post edited by lahnmir on
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I think replaying sections, peeking behind the curtains so to speak, to be illusion shattering. I never, ever replay rpgs or any other kind of game to make different choices and see what happens then.
My last story heavy game is Detroit: Become Human which is literally a ‘make your own story as you go along’ game where things can horribly wrong and main characters can die. Because of this it is an incredibly powerful experience, but you have to embrace the illusion for it to work. Playing this game once means I will miss out on tons of content, on the other hand, the story I played through is my story and my experience alone, undiluted.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
I haven't played that game but watched some streamers play it when it released. It was an interesting game and the choices seemed "real enough." Most streamers at the end, went back and looked at all the differing possible paths one could have taken on that flowchart within the game. That was enlightening
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
(at first, admittedly not a Cage fan here. Nicely put)
I give you that, Detroit does have choices, and a few branching paths which end up maybe 3 or 4 different outcomes (with mild variatons of characters present or not, etc.), but the issue is, it has almost nothing else.
Makes me wonder, if Netflix could somehow add QTEs into Bandersnatch, would that turn it into a game?
Since Cage's "games" are basically that, a movie with branching plotlines cut into parts and tied those parts with choices (that's Bandersnatch so far), with a ton of QTEs, and a few shooting sequences in small areas - which shooting element is what Cage enthusiasts used to cite to point out how it ain't just an average interactive movie.
It doesn't enough to qualify as a game for me, but it's definitely an age old debate, ever since Dragon's Lair in the '80s...
(at first, admittedly not a Cage fan here. Nicely put)
I give you that, Detroit does have choices, and a few branching paths which end up maybe 3 or 4 different outcomes (with mild variatons of characters present or not, etc.), but the issue is, it has almost nothing else.
Makes me wonder, if Netflix could somehow add QTEs into Bandersnatch, would that turn it into a game?
Since Cage's "games" are basically that, a movie with branching plotlines cut into parts and tied those parts with choices (that's Bandersnatch so far), with a ton of QTEs, and a few shooting sequences in small areas - which shooting element is what Cage enthusiasts used to cite to point out how it ain't just an average interactive movie.
It doesn't enough to qualify as a game for me, but it's definitely an age old debate, ever since Dragon's Lair in the '80s...
Ohh I agree, Cage has the subtlety of a sledgehammer and can derail his own stories like crazy although I would classify his experiences as games. But I think Detroit is his best work and although it is easy to tear it apart and destruct it, it is also incredibly powerful once you embrace the illusion and run with it. Thats why I used it as an example.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Ohh I agree, Cage has the subtlety of a sledgehammer and can derail his own stories like crazy although I would classify his experiences as games. But I think Detroit is his best work and although it is easy to tear it apart and destruct it, it is also incredibly powerful once you embrace the illusion and run with it. Thats why I used it as an example.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
"Subtlety of a sledgehammer" that was spot on
He overwrites stuff, often didactic as hell, etc. as a scriptwriter or director he'd be even worse than a game director so I used to debate voices on he should make movies instead.
Best work is also depending more on taste, I think Heavy Rain was maybe the most cohesive one, but even there the end twist was dead obvious from pretty early on, and the end was really cheesy for a noir story... Detroit has a few decently developed side characters though, like Clancy Brown.
(I can only rate the story, since QTEs aren't gameplay in my eyes, and the action part is weaker than any average f2p or early access action game's mechanics...)
GW2 offers some choices that atleast matter a little..
but for the rest?
Choices, let alone meaningful and also lasting choices, that's a tough nut to crack in MMORPGs. Not technically, don't get me wrong, but for the player reception...
AoC tried it, with big red warning text around: people ended up on the "wrong" path due whatever reasons (from ignorance and "I don't read quests" to deliberate decisions turn out differently they've expected), people cursed, yelled, prepared for lynching, AoC got rid of those quest choices.
LotRO tried it with first year of Frostbluff (a really great storyline though, I hesitated to put it on my post in the "Best quests" thread), surrounded with big red warnings about your choice is final, siding with the corrupt mayor for riches, or helping the poor townsfolk. Sure they could only offer some rags, but it was a christmas content FFS...
I think I even had a post here about it, how disappointed I was when saw all those people in the mayor's rewarded outfit. "Just a game, of course I choose the goodies!"
And then, several months later the helpful players got a heartfelt letter from the townsfolk, who managed to put Frostbluff on the right track, economy is good, so they've sent a robe of thanks. Which was an awesome closure of the storyline btw.
Except all the Misers (the mayor helpers) went into rage mode, and demanded a change, so next winter Turbine had to change it into replayable, and with it the meaningful choice was gone...
TSW tried it too, with your choices in the Dreamscape resulted which ultimate ability your character got at the end of the main story. The three powers were pretty much the same, still, players were into rage mode if they didn't get the one they thought the best, and demanded an option to change it...
Different outcomes and meaningful choices are great for singleplayer games -and just an opinion I believe it's great for online too-, but most online players are conditioned otherwise. Retrains, gear swaps, etc. nothing is really permanent there, especially not story decisions...
People can be lame.
However, it's probably best to build a game from the ground up with the idea that different choices will lead a character along different paths. Suddenly throwing that concept into an already existing MMORPG is not such a great idea. Unless the developers are planning on redesigning the entire game.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
GW2 offers some choices that atleast matter a little..
but for the rest?
Choices, let alone meaningful and also lasting choices, that's a tough nut to crack in MMORPGs. Not technically, don't get me wrong, but for the player reception...
AoC tried it, with big red warning text around: people ended up on the "wrong" path due whatever reasons (from ignorance and "I don't read quests" to deliberate decisions turn out differently they've expected), people cursed, yelled, prepared for lynching, AoC got rid of those quest choices.
LotRO tried it with first year of Frostbluff (a really great storyline though, I hesitated to put it on my post in the "Best quests" thread), surrounded with big red warnings about your choice is final, siding with the corrupt mayor for riches, or helping the poor townsfolk. Sure they could only offer some rags, but it was a christmas content FFS...
I think I even had a post here about it, how disappointed I was when saw all those people in the mayor's rewarded outfit. "Just a game, of course I choose the goodies!"
And then, several months later the helpful players got a heartfelt letter from the townsfolk, who managed to put Frostbluff on the right track, economy is good, so they've sent a robe of thanks. Which was an awesome closure of the storyline btw.
Except all the Misers (the mayor helpers) went into rage mode, and demanded a change, so next winter Turbine had to change it into replayable, and with it the meaningful choice was gone...
TSW tried it too, with your choices in the Dreamscape resulted which ultimate ability your character got at the end of the main story. The three powers were pretty much the same, still, players were into rage mode if they didn't get the one they thought the best, and demanded an option to change it...
Different outcomes and meaningful choices are great for singleplayer games -and just an opinion I believe it's great for online too-, but most online players are conditioned otherwise. Retrains, gear swaps, etc. nothing is really permanent there, especially not story decisions...
I remember the LotR one. Gosh the uproar. Players never really accept consequences and developers cannot have unhappy players or their game loses players. Difficult to balance and in the end they make every quest line repeatable or of no consequence.
GW2 offers some choices that atleast matter a little..
but for the rest?
Choices, let alone meaningful and also lasting choices, that's a tough nut to crack in MMORPGs. Not technically, don't get me wrong, but for the player reception...
AoC tried it, with big red warning text around: people ended up on the "wrong" path due whatever reasons (from ignorance and "I don't read quests" to deliberate decisions turn out differently they've expected), people cursed, yelled, prepared for lynching, AoC got rid of those quest choices.
LotRO tried it with first year of Frostbluff (a really great storyline though, I hesitated to put it on my post in the "Best quests" thread), surrounded with big red warnings about your choice is final, siding with the corrupt mayor for riches, or helping the poor townsfolk. Sure they could only offer some rags, but it was a christmas content FFS...
I think I even had a post here about it, how disappointed I was when saw all those people in the mayor's rewarded outfit. "Just a game, of course I choose the goodies!"
And then, several months later the helpful players got a heartfelt letter from the townsfolk, who managed to put Frostbluff on the right track, economy is good, so they've sent a robe of thanks. Which was an awesome closure of the storyline btw.
Except all the Misers (the mayor helpers) went into rage mode, and demanded a change, so next winter Turbine had to change it into replayable, and with it the meaningful choice was gone...
TSW tried it too, with your choices in the Dreamscape resulted which ultimate ability your character got at the end of the main story. The three powers were pretty much the same, still, players were into rage mode if they didn't get the one they thought the best, and demanded an option to change it...
Different outcomes and meaningful choices are great for singleplayer games -and just an opinion I believe it's great for online too-, but most online players are conditioned otherwise. Retrains, gear swaps, etc. nothing is really permanent there, especially not story decisions...
I remember the LotR one. Gosh the uproar. Players never really accept consequences and developers cannot have unhappy players or their game loses players. Difficult to balance and in the end they make every quest line repeatable or of no consequence.
Yeah, ruin the game for everyone because of some loud-mouthed idiots.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
However, it's probably best to build a game from the ground up with the idea that different choices will lead a character along different paths. Suddenly throwing that concept into an already existing MMORPG is not such a great idea.
Just for the record, AoC and TSW were built from ground up with that, in AoC just a few quests though, for the fun - it was easy to remove those when they saw the complaints.
TSW too, the very introduction was putting an emphasis on it during your dream (literally maybe the second minute of your gameplay after the character creation), I mean what's not obvious in:
[Dreamer]You will see the end of days. You will see the dawning of a new age.
To be a monarch or a beggar.
To lose everything or to become a god.
To stand with us or against us.
The choice is yours. Remember this...
And then the (to avoid spoilers) lady in white vs. guy in black "debate", and how you must make the right choices, etc.
So when at the end there were different outcomes, why the surprise?
To Funcom's credit, they didn't change it, no matter the complaints. At least in TSW.
They did change it however in the relaunched Legends...
In LotRO it really was a "suddenly entered new concept" but they told it beforehand a lot of times the choice is final, and no worries it will only affect cosmetics (besides the story aspect of course). And they didn't lie, it was only cosmetics. Nice outfits vs. shabby rags and the feeling of doing the right thing.
...and next summer a really nice outfit too
That's when the whining started, until that point ("we did the good pick, look at my cool top hat") those players had no problems with the mission.
I am so obsessive compulsive about obtaining the best possible outcome in a RPG I probably belong in a 12 Step group.
Did five play throughs in Fallout 4, deleted over 1200 save games (30GB) after each one.
I've actually ruined several great RPGs, never actually finishing them because I kept saving, reloading, and replaying every possible dialog choice in an attempt to achieve the best one including KOTOR and the original Dragon Age.
Between all of the resaving and reloading of every fight, because there too I not only must win, but must win in the best way possible, (boom headshot, down goes the level 65 Deathclaw using my trusty .22 caliber rifle, only took 53 retries) and dialogue replays my "progress" slowed to such a crawl I grew bored and gave up, a self inflicted issue I realize and not a problem with the game.
I tried to find ways to compensate, reading countless guides and even full walkthroughs to ensure victory, but instead they took all of the surprise out of the game so while I did finish, seemed like a hollow victory.
Just happened to me recently, got Disco Elysium around Christmas. I spent several evenings trying to create a character, searching the Web for the best build(s) but you know what, I could not find one.
Sure, people shared the pros and cons of each choice, and their influence on the game play, but I could not discern which was the "best" choice.
I finally picked some safe, middle of the road build and....found myself back in the same old trap. There I was, saving and replaying every single dialogue or decision choice with everything I did.
Long story short, I never made it outside of the diner in the starting hotel as I could not well determine if the choices I made were the "best" ones and I set the game aside after only two or three hours of play.
Just can't go down that road anymore, better to stick with online games which don't provide any such options.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I am so obsessive compulsive about obtaining the best possible outcome in a RPG I probably belong in a 12 Step group.
Did five play throughs in Fallout 4, deleted over 1200 save games (30GB) after each one.
I've actually ruined several great RPGs, never actually finishing them because I kept saving, reloading, and replaying every possible dialog choice in an attempt to achieve the best one including KOTOR and the original Dragon Age.
Between all of the resaving and reloading of every fight, because there too I not only must win, but must win in the best way possible, (boom headshot, down goes the level 65 Deathclaw using my trusty .22 caliber rifle, only took 53 retries) and dialogue replays my "progress" slowed to such a crawl I grew bored and gave up, a self inflicted issue I realize and not a problem with the game.
I tried to find ways to compensate, reading countless guides and even full walkthroughs to ensure victory, but instead they took all of the surprise out of the game so while I did finish, seemed like a hollow victory.
Just happened to me recently, got Disco Elysium around Christmas. I spent several evenings trying to create a character, searching the Web for the best build(s) but you know what, I could not find one.
Sure, people shared the pros and cons of each choice, and their influence on the game play, but I could not discern which was the "best" choice.
I finally picked some safe, middle of the road build and....found myself back in the same old trap. There I was, saving and replaying every single dialogue or decision choice with everything I did.
Long story short, I never made it outside of the diner in the starting hotel as I could not well determine if the choices I made were the "best" ones and I set the game aside after only two or three hours of play.
Just can't go down that road anymore, better to stick with online games which don't provide any such options.
You're the 'on steroids' version of me when I play. I too have suffered similar problems of not finishing games due to this dumb overabundance of wanting the best outcome. After reading what you wrote I must change is my mantra. I will live with what I pick on Disco Elysium.
GW2 offers some choices that atleast matter a little..
but for the rest?
Choices, let alone meaningful and also lasting choices, that's a tough nut to crack in MMORPGs. Not technically, don't get me wrong, but for the player reception...
AoC tried it, with big red warning text around: people ended up on the "wrong" path due whatever reasons (from ignorance and "I don't read quests" to deliberate decisions turn out differently they've expected), people cursed, yelled, prepared for lynching, AoC got rid of those quest choices.
LotRO tried it with first year of Frostbluff (a really great storyline though, I hesitated to put it on my post in the "Best quests" thread), surrounded with big red warnings about your choice is final, siding with the corrupt mayor for riches, or helping the poor townsfolk. Sure they could only offer some rags, but it was a christmas content FFS...
I think I even had a post here about it, how disappointed I was when saw all those people in the mayor's rewarded outfit. "Just a game, of course I choose the goodies!"
And then, several months later the helpful players got a heartfelt letter from the townsfolk, who managed to put Frostbluff on the right track, economy is good, so they've sent a robe of thanks. Which was an awesome closure of the storyline btw.
Except all the Misers (the mayor helpers) went into rage mode, and demanded a change, so next winter Turbine had to change it into replayable, and with it the meaningful choice was gone...
TSW tried it too, with your choices in the Dreamscape resulted which ultimate ability your character got at the end of the main story. The three powers were pretty much the same, still, players were into rage mode if they didn't get the one they thought the best, and demanded an option to change it...
Different outcomes and meaningful choices are great for singleplayer games -and just an opinion I believe it's great for online too-, but most online players are conditioned otherwise. Retrains, gear swaps, etc. nothing is really permanent there, especially not story decisions...
People can be lame.
However, it's probably best to build a game from the ground up with the idea that different choices will lead a character along different paths. Suddenly throwing that concept into an already existing MMORPG is not such a great idea. Unless the developers are planning on redesigning the entire game.
How would you handle 2 (or more) players affecting the same part of the world in different or opposite ways?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
How would you handle 2 (or more) players affecting the same part of the world in different or opposite ways?
What do you mean exactly?
One player cuts a tree down, another one plants a tree?
One player delivers a village from calamity and then another one burns it down?
One player saves a king from an illness (natural or magical) by finding the antidote, then another player sneaks in to assassinate the same king?
Post edited by Ancient_Exile on
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
I am so obsessive compulsive about obtaining the best possible outcome in a RPG I probably belong in a 12 Step group.
Did five play throughs in Fallout 4, deleted over 1200 save games (30GB) after each one.
I've actually ruined several great RPGs, never actually finishing them because I kept saving, reloading, and replaying every possible dialog choice in an attempt to achieve the best one including KOTOR and the original Dragon Age.
Between all of the resaving and reloading of every fight, because there too I not only must win, but must win in the best way possible, (boom headshot, down goes the level 65 Deathclaw using my trusty .22 caliber rifle, only took 53 retries) and dialogue replays my "progress" slowed to such a crawl I grew bored and gave up, a self inflicted issue I realize and not a problem with the game.
I tried to find ways to compensate, reading countless guides and even full walkthroughs to ensure victory, but instead they took all of the surprise out of the game so while I did finish, seemed like a hollow victory.
Just happened to me recently, got Disco Elysium around Christmas. I spent several evenings trying to create a character, searching the Web for the best build(s) but you know what, I could not find one.
Sure, people shared the pros and cons of each choice, and their influence on the game play, but I could not discern which was the "best" choice.
I finally picked some safe, middle of the road build and....found myself back in the same old trap. There I was, saving and replaying every single dialogue or decision choice with everything I did.
Long story short, I never made it outside of the diner in the starting hotel as I could not well determine if the choices I made were the "best" ones and I set the game aside after only two or three hours of play.
Just can't go down that road anymore, better to stick with online games which don't provide any such options.
I faced a similar, though far-less amplified version, of your problem when playing Warhammer Total War. I wasted a lot of time going back to fix my mistakes or just restarting while playing the Empire and the Dwarves. (Though less so with the Dwarves who I did not play as much). However, I have resolved to play Warhammer Total War as if it is Darkest Dungeon next time I play.
"If everything was easy, nothing would be hard."
"Show me on the doll where PVP touched you."
(Note: If I type something in a thread that does not exactly pertain to the stated subject of the thread in every, way, shape, and form, please feel free to send me a response in a Private Message.)
How would you handle 2 (or more) players affecting the same part of the world in different or opposite ways?
What do you mean exactly?
One player cuts a tree down, another one plants a tree?
One player delivers a village from calamity and then another one burns it down?
One player saves a king from an illness (natural or magical) by finding the antidote, then another player sneaks in to assassinate the same king?
No on the first one, yes for the following 2.
Let's not derail this thread, too, into another "my perfect world" thread. This is about RPG stories
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Comments
I haven't gotten around to playing these games yet, but what about Pathfinder: Kingmaker or Pillars of Eternity 2? Did they have any "hard choices?" They're both heralded as great RPGs.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
And sometimes, those stories can get in the way of good gameplay
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I am aware that it is a game but I simply find it against the grain to try to be a complete arsehole even in a game. I like saving people or trying to do only slightly evil stuff and even if it is an anaemic play style I cannot seem to break out of that mold.
I was thinking of speaking with Kreia in KotOR 2 and the many times I had to think through my response before choosing them. The fine line between agreeing/disagreeing with her views or challenging them. Or guessing how far to go "flirty" with Bastilla in KotOR 1.
Don't worry about the MMORPG mix-up. It happens
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I wanted to see what the "Evil Jedi Robes" were like at the end of KotOR 1 so I had Zaalbar kill Mission just after landing on the final planet. Once I got the robes, I logged out and deleted that save file. I couldn't boot the game back up for about a week afterwards
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
My last story heavy game is Detroit: Become Human which is literally a ‘make your own story as you go along’ game where things can horribly wrong and main characters can die. Because of this it is an incredibly powerful experience, but you have to embrace the illusion for it to work. Playing this game once means I will miss out on tons of content, on the other hand, the story I played through is my story and my experience alone, undiluted.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Yeah, ruin the game for everyone because of some loud-mouthed idiots.
And they didn't lie, it was only cosmetics. Nice outfits vs. shabby rags and the feeling of doing the right thing.
Did five play throughs in Fallout 4, deleted over 1200 save games (30GB) after each one.
I've actually ruined several great RPGs, never actually finishing them because I kept saving, reloading, and replaying every possible dialog choice in an attempt to achieve the best one including KOTOR and the original Dragon Age.
Between all of the resaving and reloading of every fight, because there too I not only must win, but must win in the best way possible, (boom headshot, down goes the level 65 Deathclaw using my trusty .22 caliber rifle, only took 53 retries) and dialogue replays my "progress" slowed to such a crawl I grew bored and gave up, a self inflicted issue I realize and not a problem with the game.
I tried to find ways to compensate, reading countless guides and even full walkthroughs to ensure victory, but instead they took all of the surprise out of the game so while I did finish, seemed like a hollow victory.
Just happened to me recently, got Disco Elysium around Christmas. I spent several evenings trying to create a character, searching the Web for the best build(s) but you know what, I could not find one.
Sure, people shared the pros and cons of each choice, and their influence on the game play, but I could not discern which was the "best" choice.
I finally picked some safe, middle of the road build and....found myself back in the same old trap. There I was, saving and replaying every single dialogue or decision choice with everything I did.
Long story short, I never made it outside of the diner in the starting hotel as I could not well determine if the choices I made were the "best" ones and I set the game aside after only two or three hours of play.
Just can't go down that road anymore, better to stick with online games which don't provide any such options.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
How would you handle 2 (or more) players affecting the same part of the world in different or opposite ways?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I faced a similar, though far-less amplified version, of your problem when playing Warhammer Total War. I wasted a lot of time going back to fix my mistakes or just restarting while playing the Empire and the Dwarves. (Though less so with the Dwarves who I did not play as much). However, I have resolved to play Warhammer Total War as if it is Darkest Dungeon next time I play.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR