Mandatory Reading- A timeline

Slapshot1188

https://massivelyop.com/2020/04/02/vague-patch-notes-chronicles-of-elyrias-road-to-nowhere/

Iselin

Too many complex and never before done features hyped with too small a budget, too small a team of nobodies, with a ridiculously short time frame to release.

It took willful blindness to not have been very skeptical right from the very beginning. This had delusion on a clinical scale and/or scam written all over it from day one.

Credit to massively for sounding the alarm more often and more loudly than others but even they had some part in aiding and abetting this thing by not being quick enough to point out the obvious.

Mendel

Iselin said:

Too many complex and never before done features hyped with too small a budget, too small a team of nobodies, with a ridiculously short time frame to release.

It took willful blindness to not have been very skeptical right from the very beginning. This had delusion on a clinical scale and/or scam written all over it from day one.

Credit to massively for sounding the alarm more often and more loudly than others but even they had some part in aiding and abetting this thing by not being quick enough to point out the obvious.

Realistically, how difficult would it have been for MOP.com or MMORPG.com to put a condition on coverage, something as simple as "show us something that we can show our readers"?  Instead, the development teams want to protect their "ideas" by keeping details strictly at the 30,000 foot level -- enough clarity to encourage more "donations" while obfuscating the details of work actually done.  These companies want to hide behind NDAs and still receive the free press and publicity of a mention by an "industry game site".  If developers can't step out from behind the curtain occasionally, well, you get what you paid for.

Yes, MOP.com did a tiny bit more than MMORPG.com to expose this fiasco, but the damage done to SBS was far less significant than the benefit to SBS.

Iselin

Mendel said:

Iselin said:

Too many complex and never before done features hyped with too small a budget, too small a team of nobodies, with a ridiculously short time frame to release.

It took willful blindness to not have been very skeptical right from the very beginning. This had delusion on a clinical scale and/or scam written all over it from day one.

Credit to massively for sounding the alarm more often and more loudly than others but even they had some part in aiding and abetting this thing by not being quick enough to point out the obvious.

Realistically, how difficult would it have been for MOP.com or MMORPG.com to put a condition on coverage, something as simple as "show us something that we can show our readers"?  Instead, the development teams want to protect their "ideas" by keeping details strictly at the 30,000 foot level -- enough clarity to encourage more "donations" while obfuscating the details of work actually done.  These companies want to hide behind NDAs and still receive the free press and publicity of a mention by an "industry game site".  If developers can't step out from behind the curtain occasionally, well, you get what you paid for.

Yes, MOP.com did a tiny bit more than MMORPG.com to expose this fiasco, but the damage done to SBS was far less significant than the benefit to SBS.

The thing that annoys me is that sites like this and MOP are in the business of influencing gamers. They, like all media that is about giving reliable opinions, live or die by their credibility.

There is more than enough evidence that there are some rotten things in gaming and it's not just crowdfunding. There are unethical monetization schemes by AAA companies that should be called out and highlighted.

Back in the '80s and '90s it was fine to just cover everything new that was coming with enthusiasm and optimism because the industry was niche and almost without exception games were being developed with honest good intentions.

But those days are long gone. They went away when it became big business and all kinds of asset-flip crap, dodgy monetization and schemes to separate the enthusiastic and gullible from their money have sprouted up. 

The gaming media with very few exceptions however is still plodding along as if we were still in the '90s. "Look at this cool new shiny!" "Here's the latest press release from Rocko's Midnight Emporium." That doesn't work any more. It does no service to the reader at best and at worst, like I said, aids and abets dodgy and unsavory enterprises passing themselves off as legit studios because very few things get put through the critical filter they should go through.

Press releases about shit and scams look almost identical to those from the honest and promising games in development. If you just pass them both along with no comment you are implicitly saying that there is no difference between the two. And man is there ever a difference.

Slapshot1188

In many instances sites just seem to take the PR file emailed by a company and paste it into a “news” article.

Trident9259

Slapshot1188 said:

In many instances sites just seem to take the PR file emailed by a company and paste it into a “news” article.

no shit.

like in my recent research about this fiasco i came across articles by this site such as this one:

https://www.mmorpg.com/chronicles-of-elyria/news/chronicles-of-elyria-shares-video-of-pre-alpha-advanced-traversal-mechanics-gameplay-2000117459

you don't have to have a phd in game design to realise that the footage shown was utter garbage considering the game has been in development for 5 years.

yet mmorpg.com made no mention of this.

ironically, the article's author bio reads:

A highly opinionated avid PC gamer, Poorna blindly panics with his friends in various multiplayer games, much to the detriment of his team. Constantly questioning industry practices and a passion for technological progress drive his love for the video game industry. He pulls no punches and tells it like he sees it.

well he clearly did not question what the fuck have these scammers been doing for 5 years has he?

Wizardry

Know what though,it might not take a phd or even a smidgen of thought to realize bad studios,bad games but apparently 99% of the population are idiots that fall for everything.

I just noted in another thread that Rockstar 299 million,Epic and Fortnite 2.4 billion fro their cash shops ,3 games in total.How does that kind of money get spent unless people are just idiots?

So imagine how many billions are spent in cash shops in the entire industry,INSANE,you buy a country with the money.

So yeah this Walsh simply saw a cash grab,he saw like everyone else a market where you can con anyone and come away like bandits.Notice i didn't even mention Chris Robert's  in my opening sentence.You know why one of his partners is a business lawyer /accountant,there is only one reason,he is up to no good and been that way for a LONG time.

You know why Robert's was never on time in any of his past games,he knew to milk his investors,especially one like Microsoft.So he put out a "feeler"see what kind of fish bite and he found out that all he needed was worms and he captured truck loads of fish.

So idk either people do need a phd or maybe they should have stayed in school longer to learn a few things,like math...common sense.They don't really teach common sense in school huh,maybe that's the problem.

Deveron

It’s not so much stupid as it is dopamine production manipulation. 

Games in general have gotten a pass through the psychological department for long now, to make them more fun, more rewarding and ultimately more addicting for a long time now. Just think back to the days of the arcade, where kids of the 80s burnt more money on games than your regular Fortnite player today. 

There’s just more of ‘em pooled into fewer games all over the globe, instead of being divided into local money pits, but there’s a reason why arcades all over the globe got regulated and ended up being age-restricted. That, of course, left publishers with a big hole in their pockets and seeking for new ways of monetization.

So if the kids can’t come to your place to waste their parents dough on you, whatyagonnado?! Yep, invade their homes with consoles, get them hooked up on your closed system for cheap and then sell them games at a price point that means even more profit than building, delivering, maintaining these big huge ass machines in the arcades. 

Over the long run, however, people got so used to the price of games and - especially with the advent of pc gaming - got holds onto technology that allowed them to acquire games through different sources, that it became nearly impossible to adjust prices and those sweet, sweet profits began dwindling and the publishers’ purses thinning again.

Cue the internet, subscription services, player to player RMT, the old economic axiom that time is money, the technology to prevent most cheating and the inherent nature of gamers wanting and willing to cheat to save time and the dollar signs reappeared in the greedy eyeballs of publishers. And since we all were so well groomed in our youths, we all welcomed the opportunity to game anywhere and anytime on our mobile devices.

So I think we’re just at or close to another peak of the gaming industry’s monetization level, currently. RMT and gambling like features are beginning to be regulated in at least some countries and the awareness of gamers and parents alike has risen considerably the last few years, but thanks to the fast technological advancements, the industry hasn’t to wait years for outside and independent invention to leverage, but is actively involved in developing and exploring all kinds of options.

So, no, I do not think it is much about stupid, but about grooming, manipulation, addictions and just some half-baked developers with a cheap psychology degree jumping on the bandwagon of exploitation. Substitute “gaming” with “gambling” - or any other habit-forming / addictive substance - and you’ll see how perverted the history of video gaming truly is. And when you take a good look inside bars, casinos, drug dealers’ ledgers, you‘ll find plenty of smart folks, often some of the smartest.

That’s because we all are stupid and susceptible to manipulation. Believing we’re not just opens us up to be taken advantage of. Stay woke!

Scot

Iselin said:

Too many complex and never before done features hyped with too small a budget, too small a team of nobodies, with a ridiculously short time frame to release.

It took willful blindness to not have been very skeptical right from the very beginning. This had delusion on a clinical scale and/or scam written all over it from day one.

Credit to massively for sounding the alarm more often and more loudly than others but even they had some part in aiding and abetting this thing by not being quick enough to point out the obvious.

When did Massively sound the alarm, how far back and how often? Did MMORPG.com or any other gaming site ever do so? Just talking about the fact they are having some lay offs is not an article about there being something to question. Not saying you are wrong, I don't follow development as much as you guys and I got the impression no hard questions were asked? Indeed the only article I can remember questioning crowd funded MMOs was about Star Citizen and those came after mainstream media had questioned what was going on.

I did rather get the idea that just like film magazines don't question films in development and roleplaying magazines don't question roleplaying games in development, MMO sites don't question MMOs in development. After launch they do, but not during the process.

Iselin

Scot said:

Iselin said:

Too many complex and never before done features hyped with too small a budget, too small a team of nobodies, with a ridiculously short time frame to release.

It took willful blindness to not have been very skeptical right from the very beginning. This had delusion on a clinical scale and/or scam written all over it from day one.

Credit to massively for sounding the alarm more often and more loudly than others but even they had some part in aiding and abetting this thing by not being quick enough to point out the obvious.

When did Massively sound the alarm, how far back and how often? Did MMORPG.com or any other gaming site ever do so? Just talking about the fact they are having some lay offs is not an article about there being something to question. Not saying you are wrong, I don't follow development as much as you guys and I got the impression no hard questions were asked? Indeed the only article I can remember questioning crowd funded MMOs was about Star Citizen and those came after mainstream media had questioned what was going on.

I did rather get the idea that just like film magazines don't question films in development and roleplaying magazines don't question roleplaying games in development, MMO sites don't question MMOs in development. After launch they do, but not during the process.

Don't remember exact dates but Tim here to his credit, did a while back - he was the only one of the writers here who did as I recall. Massively a short time before that as well.

Scot

Tim did "CoE Wherefore Art Thou" in Jan 2019, that is the only article I can find on MMORPG.com which really questioned the project. Massively don't seem to have questioned the project as a whole but in their tone about setbacks you get a negative impression. But MMO's always have setbacks apart from Tim's piece I see no real questions raised. I think part of the problem is that if you are doing development blogs you are partly on side, its hard to be bipartisan in that situation. But a greater factor is the desire of media not to attack their own hobby, it is their bread and butter after all.

Gdemami

Scot said:

But a greater factor is the desire of media not to attack their own hobby, it is their bread and butter after all.

...or even greater factor is not all in medias are idiots.

Sure, you get exceptions like Eisen, Shreirer and/or sometimes articles go retard(typical MassivelyOP) for easy clicks but these are indeed exceptions.

Hint: compare a media like youtubers and websites.

Writing form is still keeping a bit higher standards, the gap is narrowing but it is still noticeable compared to equally popular streamers like AngryJoe or LazyPeon running their mouths and shit talks for views.

Kyleran

Wizardry said:

Know what though,it might not take a phd or even a smidgen of thought to realize bad studios,bad games but apparently 99% of the population are idiots that fall for everything.

I just noted in another thread that Rockstar 299 million,Epic and Fortnite 2.4 billion fro their cash shops ,3 games in total.How does that kind of money get spent unless people are just idiots?

So imagine how many billions are spent in cash shops in the entire industry,INSANE,you buy a country with the money.

So yeah this Walsh simply saw a cash grab,he saw like everyone else a market where you can con anyone and come away like bandits.Notice i didn't even mention Chris Robert's  in my opening sentence.You know why one of his partners is a business lawyer /accountant,there is only one reason,he is up to no good and been that way for a LONG time.

You know why Robert's was never on time in any of his past games,he knew to milk his investors,especially one like Microsoft.So he put out a "feeler"see what kind of fish bite and he found out that all he needed was worms and he captured truck loads of fish.

So idk either people do need a phd or maybe they should have stayed in school longer to learn a few things,like math...common sense.They don't really teach common sense in school huh,maybe that's the problem.

Common sense really isn't all that common.

cheyane

I remember when they left the Spatial OS thing . I read about it on these boards.

Scot

cheyane said:

I remember when they left the Spatial OS thing . I read about it on these boards.

Yes, they cover setbacks but no one says "and that really is going to put the game back a year" or question if it can continue. Posters here were at least saying if you make major decisions like start a Trove version of the game then months later abandoned the idea you have wasted months of time and money. I sussed that but did not realise the effect several such successive knocks were going to have.

Gdemami said:

Scot said:

But a greater factor is the desire of media not to attack their own hobby, it is their bread and butter after all.

...or even greater factor is not all in medias are idiots.

Sure, you get exceptions like Eisen, Shreirer and/or sometimes articles go retard(typical MassivelyOP) for easy clicks but these are indeed exceptions.

Hint: compare a media like youtubers and websites.

Writing form is still keeping a bit higher standards, the gap is narrowing but it is still noticeable compared to equally popular streamers like AngryJoe or LazyPeon running their mouths and shit talks for views.

It is a reply from the guy who keeps telling us we are not developers and so don't have a clue what we are talking about. Guys like Slapshot and later Kyleran opened our eyes to the issues. You just kept saying we don't know what we are talking about and doing lol's. I don't expect exposes all the time, I just think after this articels should lean a bit more to the skeptical. We were all caught up in the buzz for years.

Gdemami

Scot said:
It is a reply from the guy who keeps telling us we are not developers and so don't have a clue what we are talking about. 

...yep, and that still applies - point in case your very post, calling trolls to be an eye opener.

Enough said. Common sense is indeed not that common...

OrangeBoy

I'm not sure if you can call 99% of the pop. idiots. There should be slack given to individuals who invest their money on pure intentions only to be back stabbed by scum with ill intentions.

I'd rather live in a world with people ready to help and invest their money in their dreams especially if both parties are grounded and have good intentions. And one way to make sure scumbags like Casp are far and few in between is for the law to make an example out of them.

I'd add that if Caspian's MO was to scam from the beginning, the punishment for people like him who prey off of good people should be EXTREMELY severe. I'm talking lengthy prison time or even lynching. That's if it's proven he was a shyster from the very beginning in a court of law.

Nilden

Gdemami said:

Scot said:
It is a reply from the guy who keeps telling us we are not developers and so don't have a clue what we are talking about. 

...yep, and that still applies - point in case your very post, calling trolls to be an eye opener.

Enough said. Common sense is indeed not that common...

You're just salty because they were right about everything and this dumpster fire shutting down just proves you don't know anything about game design.

Iselin

Nilden said:

Gdemami said:

Scot said:
It is a reply from the guy who keeps telling us we are not developers and so don't have a clue what we are talking about. 

...yep, and that still applies - point in case your very post, calling trolls to be an eye opener.

Enough said. Common sense is indeed not that common...

You're just salty because they were right about everything and this dumpster fire shutting down just proves you don't know anything about game design.

You're wasting your time. A defining characteristic of that personality disorder is to not learn from mistakes because they never make any.

OrangeBoy

Gdemami said:

Scot said:
It is a reply from the guy who keeps telling us we are not developers and so don't have a clue what we are talking about. 

...yep, and that still applies - point in case your very post, calling trolls to be an eye opener.

Enough said. Common sense is indeed not that common...

You remind me of that old guy from UP, except you stayed grumpy. I'll pray for you.

Nilden

Iselin said:

Nilden said:

Gdemami said:

Scot said:
It is a reply from the guy who keeps telling us we are not developers and so don't have a clue what we are talking about. 

...yep, and that still applies - point in case your very post, calling trolls to be an eye opener.

Enough said. Common sense is indeed not that common...

You're just salty because they were right about everything and this dumpster fire shutting down just proves you don't know anything about game design.

You're wasting your time. A defining characteristic of that personality disorder is to not learn from mistakes because they never make any.

Felt more like stating the obvious truth but yeah probably both.

MightyUnclean

You guys are taking the wrong approach with Gdemami.  He's not here to have rational discussions about MMOs.  He's here to LOL and stir shit.  You're never going to be able to carry on a serious conversation with him.

Gdemami

Nilden said:

You're just salty because they were right about everything and this dumpster fire shutting down just proves you don't know anything about game design.

...actually, it only proves (further and again) utter lack of critical thinking and trolling of yours and others alike.

You just shit talk.

MightyUnclean

Gdemami said:

Nilden said:

You're just salty because they were right about everything and this dumpster fire shutting down just proves you don't know anything about game design.

...actually, it only proves (further and again) utter lack of critical thinking and trolling of yours and others alike.

You just shit talk.

See what I mean?

You guys are taking the wrong approach with Gdemami.  He's not here to have rational discussions about MMOs.  He's here to LOL and stir shit.  You're never going to be able to carry on a serious conversation with him.

Gdemami

MightyUnclean said:
You're never going to be able to carry on a serious conversation with him.

...that's correct.

I cannot have a conversation with someone who is incapable of slightest rational thinking.

Nilden

Gdemami said:

Nilden said:

You're just salty because they were right about everything and this dumpster fire shutting down just proves you don't know anything about game design.

...actually, it only proves (further and again) utter lack of critical thinking and trolling of yours and others alike.

You just shit talk.

Oh so none of us were right and Caspian didn't shut the entire thing down taking 8 million dollars and leaving his backers with nothing?

Truth hurts so it's trolling huh?