By now you would expect Sweden's lack of restrictions to show a marked increase in cases and deaths, but that does not appear to be the so when compared to four other European countries of very similar population. Do realise that they have many restrictions, but as far as I know they are still going work. If this data holds up to hindsight scrutiny I think a somewhat different approach to "lockdown" may be in order.
Indeed but the data is showing so far that less stringent measures have not lead to more deaths. So I would suggest this has to be more to do with media pressure than anything else. I did think Sweden would be brought in line, this is not uncommon, brow beating a country that is not instep until it does what it is told. Mind you I am not saying the worlds strategy is wrong just that this data may indicate that it is wrong and looks like being swept under the carpet.
Ummm ... the data shows that less stringent measures DO lead to more deaths (Sweden is included here, albeit a special case)
But if you have different peer reviewed journal articles about this i am happy to read it.
I would be more than happy if this were true.
You mention peer review as if that is gospel, as this paper
says "There remains a high level of uncertainty in these estimates." But I am going to take them at face value as they are the best we have. The percentage of total population
infected in Sweden
is comparable to other countries like Switzerland,
Belgium and France. We had "experts" on the TV telling us in the first weeks the news broke that stopping air travel would not be effective, locking down cities would not be effective and indeed the head of the UN (I think it was) telling us that stopping flights would harm the dissemination of information about the virus! So forgive me if I take models of deaths which have been prevented with a pinch of salt. If those predictions are correct how come Sweden is not doing far worse?
So for me the evidence is already there that a country not having
as many restrictions has not seen the higher infection rate you would expect.
Now this could have a simple explanation and be down to the pattern of carriers
who where coming out of China
and then moving around Europe. So Sweden
may have got of relatively lightly in that regard. But it is worth consideration;
instead it just seems to be being ignored because it does not fit the narrative
that is being given out about best practice.
There, you clearly see the covid hoax - people aren't dying at any unusual rate, in fact they die less than in past years.
As I mentioned before overall country mortality rates may
not be affected by Corvid because of factors like having less people on the roads
means less road traffic deaths.
Scot said:As I mentioned before overall country mortality rates may
not be affected by Corvid because of factors like having less people on the roads
means less road traffic deaths.
>>> You mention peer review as if that is gospel, as this paper
says "There remains a high level of uncertainty in these estimates." >>>
Peer review has for the last decades been shown as the most effective, even if not 100 % effective way, to ensure quality in science.
You yourself gave good reasons why peer review is necessary, as these days all matter of experts crawl out of the woodwork with their personal opinions, sometimes exotic, at other times downright dangerous (remember those two French "experts" talking about CoVid medication testing best done in Africa ?).
>>> If those predictions are correct how come Sweden is not doing far worse? >>>
Because it lags behind Italy and the worst is yet to come for Sweden. I have a friend living in Sweden (originally from UK) and he has a few choice words to say about both the Swedish and the UK system of containment .... not exactly printable here ;-)
A word about the predictive models used ... they are constantly being refined with more data coming in. The scientists themselves are always giving a caveat "high level of uncertainty in these estimates" ... but the error bars get smaller and smaller the more data is coming in. The uncertainty goes down every day. The predictions get more accurate every day ... even if (especially some) politicians do not always like what those predictions tell them.
But (some) have now more time to read those analysis reports (lying in an intensive care unit bed somewhere instead of shaking hands in hospitals in front of TV cameras)
What a surprise the lol troll is one of the covidiots... not.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Don't you have anything better to do than racism, nationalism and conspiracy theories?
Like - volunteering at your local community to help in a time of crisis?
If an EVE Online player wants to participate in the "PLEX for Good" campaign - more power to them. Its their money. All the information they want is there. All the background information they want about how the money is used and the credibility of the charity can be found with a web browser.
CoVid-19 (SARS CoV-02) .... research to its origin is still ongoing. So nothing is 100 % proven in that regard. It was discovered and reported in Wuhan.
CoVid-19 (SARS CoV-02) .... research to its origin is still ongoing. So nothing is 100 % proven in that regard. It was discovered and reported in Wuhan.
it was spread from a wet market from a diseased bat.
Either way the chinese need to pay restitution to the world. This is the second mass pandemic they have been responsible for in the last 2 decades. They need to stop living in dirty conditions and come up to the standards of the western world.
People still touting the story about the bat in Wuhan. That wasn't true.
Chinese tourist don't go to all European or Asian countries. Italy is a popular Chinese tourist destination. India isn't for instance. One of the reasons the Chinese were not responsible for the spread there it was Italians who spread it there. Italians spread it to a lot of European countries.
France was for a time also looking like the virus had not hit it badly. Look at the figures now. Plus they have not been strictly testing.
Many European countries do not practice the same forms of greeting Italians are fond of. We here hug and kiss each other even people we meet for the first time. It isn't unusual not sure if Swedes do that. These things contribute to the rate at which infections spread.
Germany has a lot of infections but their death toll is far lower because they have an excellent medical system. They are a wealthy country with very good systems that helped alleviate the problem. Italy on the other hand do not have that and we suffered badly as a result. Our medical facilities are very badly run especially in the South of Italy.
While the North of Italy is far better it is not as efficient and modern as Germany's.
>>> You mention peer review as if that is gospel, as this paper
says "There remains a high level of uncertainty in these estimates." >>>
Peer review has for the last decades been shown as the most effective, even if not 100 % effective way, to ensure quality in science.
You yourself gave good reasons why peer review is necessary, as these days all matter of experts crawl out of the woodwork with their personal opinions, sometimes exotic, at other times downright dangerous (remember those two French "experts" talking about CoVid medication testing best done in Africa ?).
>>> If those predictions are correct how come Sweden is not doing far worse? >>>
Because it lags behind Italy and the worst is yet to come for Sweden. I have a friend living in Sweden (originally from UK) and he has a few choice words to say about both the Swedish and the UK system of containment .... not exactly printable here ;-)
A word about the predictive models used ... they are constantly being refined with more data coming in. The scientists themselves are always giving a caveat "high level of uncertainty in these estimates" ... but the error bars get smaller and smaller the more data is coming in. The uncertainty goes down every day. The predictions get more accurate every day ... even if (especially some) politicians do not always like what those predictions tell them.
But (some) have now more time to read those analysis reports (lying in an intensive care unit bed somewhere instead of shaking hands in hospitals in front of TV cameras)
While I regard peer review as the best we have lets not be unaware of limitations.
I can't remember the exact case (this is not what the link above talks about) but a number of peer reviewers of genetic research were dismissing certain papers which could lead to funding being put into areas they were not working in. That said it is the best we have you just have to be aware of the issues.
I did say we won't know the truth of what the best procedures are until all this has passed, as only then will the data set be complete. So I fully agree that as time goes on the predictive models get much better. My concern is what the best procedures are is already cemented in group think, always keep an open mind.
To me if Sweden's figures do not become as bad as you think they will become regarded as an outrider, you called it a "special case". Already Sweden's figures are being viewed as some how not having the weight the others do. Time will tell.
My impression (UK here) of expert advice being given to governments was a cautious approach from the likes of Chief Medical Officers, they were not advising lockdowns the week after the news came in from China. The media experts reflected this, though some made extraordinary claims that defied common sense. The media loves a meme do you remember when it was suggested schools would close? I saw a version of "Well you can't keep teenagers apart if they want to get together" followed by a shared laugh three times on different stations. The media which laughed at the idea we should take strict measures is now asking why there are not enough tests and masks, astonishingly brazen.
As to politicians doing stupid things, come on their politicians. There was that EU fellow who did a TV briefing where he announced no one should be shaking hands while the restrictions are in place. Then he welcomed someone on the stage and shook their hand!
Gdemami: I do a shopping run once a week, there is about a sixth of the cars on the road you would expect to see, so yes road traffic accidents must be down. I doubt its just that though there are no doubt other reasons, but do you actually want us to belief no one is really dying from this?
it was spread from a wet market from a diseased bat.
Either way the chinese need to pay restitution to the world. This is the second mass pandemic they have been responsible for in the last 2 decades. They need to stop living in dirty conditions and come up to the standards of the western world.
>>>it was spread from a wet market from a diseased bat.>>>
One theory. Not 100 % proven yet. One of many.
>>> they have been responsible >>>
Nature is reponsible, not China. Let me tell you from personal experience, conditions in China are often better than those in many so called first world countries (including parts of the USA and Europe). They employ many more people in all kind of cleaning jobs - they have enough of them, especially the elderly. You will always find "dirty" conditions in any country if you look close enough.
The "standards of the western world" .. i would be cautious with that. There is a well known study about the USA (just to give an example, its not limited to the USA) ... and what the average (stressing the word AVERAGE here) standard of living REALLY is there compared to other parts of the world
do you actually want us to belief no one is really dying from this?
...dying of what? Acute respiratoty infection?
As far car accidents go, do your due diligence please...ie. at least check their contribution to mortality rate.
"Road traffic deaths will increase worldwide, from 0.99 million to 2.34 million (represent- ing 3.4% of all deaths). Road traffic deaths
will increase on average by over 80% in low-income and middle-income
countries and decline by almost 30% in high- income countries."
So its between 2,38 - 6,12 %
Which - for the CoVid situation - means its a small effect on the overall curve. Noticeable (if less traffic and less road traffic death) but not a big contributor
Erillion, you seem like a smart enough person. If people like you would wake up and stop watching CNN, the world would be a much better place for us all to live in.
Here's a thought for the tinfoil crowd. Which do you think is more likely: that the governments who have taken steps to try to mitigate this at a huge economic cost know less about what's really going on with this virus or know more than random internet covidiots who may have taken biology in HS if that?
Bonus question: is it in the best interest of the money people to overplay the pandemic or downplay it?
CNN...lol.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
@Iselin ; I am not sure what the real motivation is. I have heard plenty of theories so far. At this point, I am leaning toward this being a cover for an economic crash. Back in 2008 the government bailed out the banks to the tune of around 800B I think it was? Well, they have given the banks (last time I looked) about 870B over the last 3-4 months. Again, I am leaning toward this reason. I think people would be rioting in the streets if they weren't locked in their homes and were told that the banks were being infused with cash again.
@Iselin ; I am not sure what the real motivation is. I have heard plenty of theories so far. At this point, I am leaning toward this being a cover for an economic crash. Back in 2008 the government bailed out the banks to the tune of around 800B I think it was? Well, they have given the banks (last time I looked) about 870B over the last 3-4 months. Again, I am leaning toward this reason. I think people would be rioting in the streets if they weren't locked in their homes and were told that the banks were being infused with cash again.
Time will tell.....
Wow. Creative conspiracy theory as conspiracy theories go but how do you get the whole world and all the epidemiologists to go along with it?
Nah. The simple answer is best. This is a very bad flu that's killing people at a much higher rate than normal and it's everywhere.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
How do you get the "whole world" and the scientific community to go along with all the other lies that are told to us on a daily basis?
To add to what I said earlier, it's likely also a push for global vaccinations and one world government. You already have Bill Gates and Henry Kissinger, two globalist lap dogs out there saying we need to globally vaccinate everyone and Kissinger said we should "temporarily" establish a unified government to combat this "pandemic".
This is how it always works. 1) People who really run the world want to push an agenda. 2) Create a problem 3) Get everyone in a panic 4) Come up with a magical solution which also just happens to be the agenda they want to push 5) Implement "solution" 6) Profit
Erillion, you seem like a smart enough person. If people like you would wake up and stop watching CNN, the world would be a much better place for us all to live in.
I think i watched CNN the last time 8 months ago in a hotel room at around 11 p.m.
I watched about 30 other news agencies in the meantime. With the exclusion of FOX news ... as I value my brain cells
How do you get the "whole world" and the scientific community to go along with all the other lies that are told to us on a daily basis?
To add to what I said earlier, it's likely also a push for global vaccinations and one world government. You already have Bill Gates and Henry Kissinger, two globalist lap dogs out there saying we need to globally vaccinate everyone and Kissinger said we should "temporarily" establish a unified government to combat this "pandemic".
This is how it always works. 1) People who really run the world want to push an agenda. 2) Create a problem 3) Get everyone in a panic 4) Come up with a magical solution which also just happens to be the agenda they want to push 5) Implement "solution" 6) Profit
How do you get the "whole world" and the scientific community to go along with all the other lies that are told to us on a daily basis?
To add to what I said earlier, it's likely also a push for global vaccinations and one world government. You already have Bill Gates and Henry Kissinger, two globalist lap dogs out there saying we need to globally vaccinate everyone and Kissinger said we should "temporarily" establish a unified government to combat this "pandemic".
This is how it always works. 1) People who really run the world want to push an agenda. 2) Create a problem 3) Get everyone in a panic 4) Come up with a magical solution which also just happens to be the agenda they want to push 5) Implement "solution" 6) Profit
Illuminati much ?
Only Bavarian, I am something of a traditionalist.
What amazes me is the traction world government theories have. Where is the profit here; countries, companies and many individual citizens are going to have a huge debt coming out of this?
My husband's family comes from the north of Italy where this virus has hit them hard. My mother in law is thankfully safe in a home but my husband's friends have lost their parents who have survived each winter on flu vaccines perfectly fine all this time. Try telling the people who lost entire generations that this is a conspiracy. Some of you haven't enough brain cells to rub together.
Comments
https://www.euromomo.eu/
There, you clearly see the covid hoax - people aren't dying at any unusual rate, in fact they die less than in past years.
You mention peer review as if that is gospel, as this paper says "There remains a high level of uncertainty in these estimates." But I am going to take them at face value as they are the best we have. The percentage of total population infected in Sweden is comparable to other countries like Switzerland, Belgium and France. We had "experts" on the TV telling us in the first weeks the news broke that stopping air travel would not be effective, locking down cities would not be effective and indeed the head of the UN (I think it was) telling us that stopping flights would harm the dissemination of information about the virus! So forgive me if I take models of deaths which have been prevented with a pinch of salt. If those predictions are correct how come Sweden is not doing far worse?
So for me the evidence is already there that a country not having as many restrictions has not seen the higher infection rate you would expect. Now this could have a simple explanation and be down to the pattern of carriers who where coming out of China and then moving around Europe. So Sweden may have got of relatively lightly in that regard. But it is worth consideration; instead it just seems to be being ignored because it does not fit the narrative that is being given out about best practice.
As I mentioned before overall country mortality rates may not be affected by Corvid because of factors like having less people on the roads means less road traffic deaths.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
It could be as well spread within population for years already.
Either way the chinese need to pay restitution to the world. This is the second mass pandemic they have been responsible for in the last 2 decades. They need to stop living in dirty conditions and come up to the standards of the western world.
Chinese tourist don't go to all European or Asian countries. Italy is a popular Chinese tourist destination. India isn't for instance. One of the reasons the Chinese were not responsible for the spread there it was Italians who spread it there. Italians spread it to a lot of European countries.
France was for a time also looking like the virus had not hit it badly. Look at the figures now. Plus they have not been strictly testing.
Many European countries do not practice the same forms of greeting Italians are fond of. We here hug and kiss each other even people we meet for the first time. It isn't unusual not sure if Swedes do that. These things contribute to the rate at which infections spread.
Germany has a lot of infections but their death toll is far lower because they have an excellent medical system. They are a wealthy country with very good systems that helped alleviate the problem. Italy on the other hand do not have that and we suffered badly as a result. Our medical facilities are very badly run especially in the South of Italy.
While the North of Italy is far better it is not as efficient and modern as Germany's.
https://theconversation.com/the-peer-review-system-has-flaws-but-its-still-a-barrier-to-bad-science-84223
I can't remember the exact case (this is not what the link above talks about) but a number of peer reviewers of genetic research were dismissing certain papers which could lead to funding being put into areas they were not working in. That said it is the best we have you just have to be aware of the issues.
I did say we won't know the truth of what the best procedures are until all this has passed, as only then will the data set be complete. So I fully agree that as time goes on the predictive models get much better. My concern is what the best procedures are is already cemented in group think, always keep an open mind.
To me if Sweden's figures do not become as bad as you think they will become regarded as an outrider, you called it a "special case". Already Sweden's figures are being viewed as some how not having the weight the others do. Time will tell.
My impression (UK here) of expert advice being given to governments was a cautious approach from the likes of Chief Medical Officers, they were not advising lockdowns the week after the news came in from China. The media experts reflected this, though some made extraordinary claims that defied common sense. The media loves a meme do you remember when it was suggested schools would close? I saw a version of "Well you can't keep teenagers apart if they want to get together" followed by a shared laugh three times on different stations. The media which laughed at the idea we should take strict measures is now asking why there are not enough tests and masks, astonishingly brazen.
As to politicians doing stupid things, come on their politicians. There was that EU fellow who did a TV briefing where he announced no one should be shaking hands while the restrictions are in place. Then he welcomed someone on the stage and shook their hand!
Gdemami: I do a shopping run once a week, there is about a sixth of the cars on the road you would expect to see, so yes road traffic accidents must be down. I doubt its just that though there are no doubt other reasons, but do you actually want us to belief no one is really dying from this?
As far car accidents go, do your due diligence please...ie. at least check their contribution to mortality rate.
Bonus question: is it in the best interest of the money people to overplay the pandemic or downplay it?
CNN...lol.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Time will tell.....
Nah. The simple answer is best. This is a very bad flu that's killing people at a much higher rate than normal and it's everywhere.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
To add to what I said earlier, it's likely also a push for global vaccinations and one world government. You already have Bill Gates and Henry Kissinger, two globalist lap dogs out there saying we need to globally vaccinate everyone and Kissinger said we should "temporarily" establish a unified government to combat this "pandemic".
This is how it always works.
1) People who really run the world want to push an agenda.
2) Create a problem
3) Get everyone in a panic
4) Come up with a magical solution which also just happens to be the agenda they want to push
5) Implement "solution"
6) Profit
What amazes me is the traction world government theories have. Where is the profit here; countries, companies and many individual citizens are going to have a huge debt coming out of this?