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Complicated game

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  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    cheyane said:

    One of the posters in the thread suggested this progression for the enhancements. Please give me an input on this path please and my idea to invest this way although all the subsequent levelling points will be in wisdom. This is just a toon to get to 20 so not doing any epic content or particularly hard stuff just a levelling build that is fun I hope.

    Alright, that is a 36 point Epic End Game build.

    So there is a LOT there you can avoid, and a huge amount that will have no weight when it comes to doing anything pre Epic's short of Reaper content.

    I mean their Pre 20th feat and stat split is solid. The Boon to Wisdom or Dex, I would have to look that up again, but I think you also get saves based on Wisdom with a Monk, so, ideally, you can't go wrong with more wisdom.

    I am a little confused as to what is your actual question with this?

    Because.. that is a shit ton of gear grind, and unless you have a lot of that already banked, that is not going to be anywhere near a "fun level up to 20" build to make.



    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,404
    edited April 2020
    I just wanted to know about the enhancements I will be buying the Falconry tree.

    I know that is an end game build. I am not going to get that gear though. I was merely using it for the feat progress and the trees. I think the tree does not really work now that some of it has been nerfed. It is not that easy to find builds that match or are current.

    I don't intend to grind and get the gear I was just looking for a build that mixes Dex and Wisdom with more points in wisdom. I needed to check which enhancements to take.

    Are you saying you have to focus on either Wisdom or Dex and not mix it? I want to get whirlwind Attack and I think you need a high Dex for that. Quivering palm does not scale well end game is what I am lead to believe and it better to focus on the raw DPS and that is why I decided on a mix build as far as stats go. I won't however be stealthing around so no sneak attacks either.

    I just wanted your input on the enhancement tree is all.
    Post edited by cheyane on
    Ungood
    Garrus Signature
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    edited April 2020
    cheyane said:
    I just wanted to know about the enhancements I will be buying the Falconry tree.

    I know that is an end game build. I am not going to get that gear though. I was merely using it for the feat progress and the trees. I think the tree does not really work now that some of it has been nerfed. It is not that easy to find builds that match or are current.

    I don't intend to grind and get the gear I was just looking for a build that mixes Dex and Wisdom with more points in wisdom. I needed to check which enhancements to take.

    Are you saying you have to focus on either Wisdom or Dex and not mix it? I want to get whirlwind Attack and I think you need a high Dex for that. Quivering palm does not scale well end game is what I am lead to believe and it better to focus on the raw DPS and that is why I decided on a mix build as far as stats go. I won't however be stealthing around so no sneak attacks either.

    I just wanted your input on the enhancement tree is all.
    Ok solid questions.

    I would like to say, some of this depends on what content you plan to run and how you like to play.

    But, for starters, Str is never a combat stat for Monks, I mean with Ninja's low start to get the Dex to Hit and Damage, requiring only a 6 point investment, and level 3, there is no reason at all to even consider Str as a Damage stat for Monk, so that is really not a consideration.

    The discussions is mainly about Wisdom for DC, and I see their point to that system, since it is building off the Bane/Jade effects off Shinto, which is hella fun, all things said and done.

    While you want enough Dex to get the feats, putting the main and remaining points into Wisdom, is a very smart move.

    Yah.. Shinto bane and jade attacks are hella fun.. go with the wisdom.

    Added:

    Since to get Wisdom To-Hit and Damage, is their 12 point investment, I will say, all their other boons also work well with any class, so you could stop there, but they going to 21, to get the added Wisdom Boon to DC's basically doubling up on the Monk's Wisdom boon to DC checks.

    Nice combo all things said and done, and while not needed for Hard and even some Elite quests, for if you plan to do Reaper that becomes a necessity.

    Basically you will want out of Falconry is Killer Instinct, Killer Instinct II, and Deadly Instinct, These are flat out Mandatory. 

    I would suggest getting things like "Out in Nature" for the heal amp, as well, if you plan to use Insta-kills get the "Watch the Center".

    You will want to raise your wisdom with the Trait line as well, and get the Well Rounded, but keep in mind, the goal with your 21 point spend, is to get the 3 core abilities, Killer Instinct (Wisdom to Hit), Killer Instinct II (Wisdom to Damage) and Deadly Instinct (Gives you +1/2 your Wisdom to tactical DC's)

    This works REALLY well with Shinto, when you use abilities like Jade Strike, or Tomb of Jade, , for example, but Shino really shines if you rise that DC with Falconry, and with the Wisdom to Hit&Damage, there is no real loss to DPS using Wisdom over Dex.

    Hope some of that helps you.. not sure if I gave you the answers you were looking for.
    cheyane
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • katzklawkatzklaw Member UncommonPosts: 101
    as a leveling build... hmm? will you be doing reapers? will you be soloing? i would say go with enough dex for the feats you want, and go wisdom for the rest of it, especially since you are going for falconry. do not discount the effectiveness of sneak attack just because you won't be sneaking. literally the ONLY thing that sneak attack requires in DDO is that you not have agro for some reason. this can be anything from 1. you're in a group and the mob is hitting someone else, to 2. you blinded or otherwise disoriented the mob (anything that procs a bluff effect... deception, improved deception, etc) to 3. many forms of hard CC (stunning fist/stunning blow and jade prison immediately come to mind for me for a monk... but other examples are freezing ice/spinning ice from warchanter or any other spell or effect that freezes/stones a creature... like freezing ice on the frozen tunic, or stone prison from stonedust handwraps)

    if not doing reapers... take stunning fist, load up your DC as high as you can crank it. load up your sneak attack as high as you can get it. and level as thus. stun enemy, wipe the floor with them in half a second or less. rinse and repeat till 20. the higher DPS from wisdom + falconry will come in handy against the rednames, and the wisdom in water stance will give you saves to ignore spells and traps. 

    the rest is icing on the cake
    Ungoodcheyane
  • katzklawkatzklaw Member UncommonPosts: 101
    if you ARE doing reaper... i haven't run a monk in reaper. only a bard and an AA... so unfortunately, i can't give you much advice... but jade tomb does work on a reaper. so that to me still said crank the CCs up to 11. 
    Ungoodcheyane
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,404
    edited April 2020
    Ungood said:
    cheyane said:
    I just wanted to know about the enhancements I will be buying the Falconry tree.

    I know that is an end game build. I am not going to get that gear though. I was merely using it for the feat progress and the trees. I think the tree does not really work now that some of it has been nerfed. It is not that easy to find builds that match or are current.

    I don't intend to grind and get the gear I was just looking for a build that mixes Dex and Wisdom with more points in wisdom. I needed to check which enhancements to take.

    Are you saying you have to focus on either Wisdom or Dex and not mix it? I want to get whirlwind Attack and I think you need a high Dex for that. Quivering palm does not scale well end game is what I am lead to believe and it better to focus on the raw DPS and that is why I decided on a mix build as far as stats go. I won't however be stealthing around so no sneak attacks either.

    I just wanted your input on the enhancement tree is all.
    Ok solid questions.

    I would like to say, some of this depends on what content you plan to run and how you like to play.

    But, for starters, Str is never a combat stat for Monks, I mean with Ninja's low start to get the Dex to Hit and Damage, requiring only a 6 point investment, and level 3, there is no reason at all to even consider Str as a Damage stat for Monk, so that is really not a consideration.

    The discussions is mainly about Wisdom for DC, and I see their point to that system, since it is building off the Bane/Jade effects off Shinto, which is hella fun, all things said and done.

    While you want enough Dex to get the feats, putting the main and remaining points into Wisdom, is a very smart move.

    Yah.. Shinto bane and jade attacks are hella fun.. go with the wisdom.

    Added:

    Since to get Wisdom To-Hit and Damage, is their 12 point investment, I will say, all their other boons also work well with any class, so you could stop there, but they going to 21, to get the added Wisdom Boon to DC's basically doubling up on the Monk's Wisdom boon to DC checks.

    Nice combo all things said and done, and while not needed for Hard and even some Elite quests, for if you plan to do Reaper that becomes a necessity.

    Basically you will want out of Falconry is Killer Instinct, Killer Instinct II, and Deadly Instinct, These are flat out Mandatory. 

    I would suggest getting things like "Out in Nature" for the heal amp, as well, if you plan to use Insta-kills get the "Watch the Center".

    You will want to raise your wisdom with the Trait line as well, and get the Well Rounded, but keep in mind, the goal with your 21 point spend, is to get the 3 core abilities, Killer Instinct (Wisdom to Hit), Killer Instinct II (Wisdom to Damage) and Deadly Instinct (Gives you +1/2 your Wisdom to tactical DC's)

    This works REALLY well with Shinto, when you use abilities like Jade Strike, or Tomb of Jade, , for example, but Shino really shines if you rise that DC with Falconry, and with the Wisdom to Hit&Damage, there is no real loss to DPS using Wisdom over Dex.

    Hope some of that helps you.. not sure if I gave you the answers you were looking for.
    No not doing Reaper. Good advice will take notes on everything you have said. So it is viable then and not a total loss to put part in Dex and rest in Wisdom. Thank you for giving me the confidence to try it.

    katzklaw
    said:
    as a leveling build... hmm? will you be doing reapers? will you be soloing? i would say go with enough dex for the feats you want, and go wisdom for the rest of it, especially since you are going for falconry. do not discount the effectiveness of sneak attack just because you won't be sneaking. literally the ONLY thing that sneak attack requires in DDO is that you not have agro for some reason. this can be anything from 1. you're in a group and the mob is hitting someone else, to 2. you blinded or otherwise disoriented the mob (anything that procs a bluff effect... deception, improved deception, etc) to 3. many forms of hard CC (stunning fist/stunning blow and jade prison immediately come to mind for me for a monk... but other examples are freezing ice/spinning ice from warchanter or any other spell or effect that freezes/stones a creature... like freezing ice on the frozen tunic, or stone prison from stonedust handwraps)

    if not doing reapers... take stunning fist, load up your DC as high as you can crank it. load up your sneak attack as high as you can get it. and level as thus. stun enemy, wipe the floor with them in half a second or less. rinse and repeat till 20. the higher DPS from wisdom + falconry will come in handy against the rednames, and the wisdom in water stance will give you saves to ignore spells and traps. 

    the rest is icing on the cake
    Fantastic idea on the stunning blow and using sneak attack after you stun it. Probably solo mostly I won't get many groups I doubt I will anyway.
    Ungood
    Garrus Signature
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,404
    katzklaw said:
    if you ARE doing reaper... i haven't run a monk in reaper. only a bard and an AA... so unfortunately, i can't give you much advice... but jade tomb does work on a reaper. so that to me still said crank the CCs up to 11. 
    Are bards hard to solo was curious never played one.
    Garrus Signature
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    cheyane said:
    Ungood said:
    cheyane said:
    I just wanted to know about the enhancements I will be buying the Falconry tree.

    I know that is an end game build. I am not going to get that gear though. I was merely using it for the feat progress and the trees. I think the tree does not really work now that some of it has been nerfed. It is not that easy to find builds that match or are current.

    I don't intend to grind and get the gear I was just looking for a build that mixes Dex and Wisdom with more points in wisdom. I needed to check which enhancements to take.

    Are you saying you have to focus on either Wisdom or Dex and not mix it? I want to get whirlwind Attack and I think you need a high Dex for that. Quivering palm does not scale well end game is what I am lead to believe and it better to focus on the raw DPS and that is why I decided on a mix build as far as stats go. I won't however be stealthing around so no sneak attacks either.

    I just wanted your input on the enhancement tree is all.
    Ok solid questions.

    I would like to say, some of this depends on what content you plan to run and how you like to play.

    But, for starters, Str is never a combat stat for Monks, I mean with Ninja's low start to get the Dex to Hit and Damage, requiring only a 6 point investment, and level 3, there is no reason at all to even consider Str as a Damage stat for Monk, so that is really not a consideration.

    The discussions is mainly about Wisdom for DC, and I see their point to that system, since it is building off the Bane/Jade effects off Shinto, which is hella fun, all things said and done.

    While you want enough Dex to get the feats, putting the main and remaining points into Wisdom, is a very smart move.

    Yah.. Shinto bane and jade attacks are hella fun.. go with the wisdom.

    Added:

    Since to get Wisdom To-Hit and Damage, is their 12 point investment, I will say, all their other boons also work well with any class, so you could stop there, but they going to 21, to get the added Wisdom Boon to DC's basically doubling up on the Monk's Wisdom boon to DC checks.

    Nice combo all things said and done, and while not needed for Hard and even some Elite quests, for if you plan to do Reaper that becomes a necessity.

    Basically you will want out of Falconry is Killer Instinct, Killer Instinct II, and Deadly Instinct, These are flat out Mandatory. 

    I would suggest getting things like "Out in Nature" for the heal amp, as well, if you plan to use Insta-kills get the "Watch the Center".

    You will want to raise your wisdom with the Trait line as well, and get the Well Rounded, but keep in mind, the goal with your 21 point spend, is to get the 3 core abilities, Killer Instinct (Wisdom to Hit), Killer Instinct II (Wisdom to Damage) and Deadly Instinct (Gives you +1/2 your Wisdom to tactical DC's)

    This works REALLY well with Shinto, when you use abilities like Jade Strike, or Tomb of Jade, , for example, but Shino really shines if you rise that DC with Falconry, and with the Wisdom to Hit&Damage, there is no real loss to DPS using Wisdom over Dex.

    Hope some of that helps you.. not sure if I gave you the answers you were looking for.
    No not doing Reaper. Good advice will take notes on everything you have said. So it is viable then and not a total loss to put part in Dex and rest in Wisdom. Thank you for giving me the confidence to try it.
    I just want to say, a lot of what will make the game harder or easier, will be based on When you take those abilities.

    You will want to get the 12 points in the Falconry as fast and early as possible, as that is what will move you from STR to Wisdom for Combat, however, then you can focus on the Shinto and others, before going back to Falconry to cap off the DC's. 

    You might even want to jump right into Ninja Spy at the start, just so you can use Dex for those first few levels, and then reset into Falconry to make a complete swap over to Wisdom for To-Hit and Damage.

    cheyane
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • katzklawkatzklaw Member UncommonPosts: 101
    cheyane said:
    katzklaw said:
    if you ARE doing reaper... i haven't run a monk in reaper. only a bard and an AA... so unfortunately, i can't give you much advice... but jade tomb does work on a reaper. so that to me still said crank the CCs up to 11. 
    Are bards hard to solo was curious never played one.
    bards have always kinda been the redheaded step children of DDO... they are in a very good place now... but for a very long time they were widely considered to suck. you were only there to sing your little songs, and then probably turn into a soulstone.

    the introduction of the swashbuckler tree, the addition of the single weapon fighting feat, and the total revamp of the warchanter tree has made VAST improvements to playability and soloability of a bard. 

    i bucked the trend by building and playing a surprisingly beastly little thing... 16 bard, 2 barbarian, 2 rogue. the synergy between warchanter and barbarian rage was there. evasion... sneak attack, traps...  i swung my collection of greataxes like a champ.  her DPS was never stellar compared to the true DPS classes out there.. fighter, monk, etc... but she held her own quite nicely. i PREFER to run in a group, even if it's a small one, but i *could* solo... when everyone else said "bards suck"

    i was the first bard to solo the 13th Eclipse raid... commonly known as "shroud". i did it BEFORE those changes were made. when bards "sucked"



    January 2014. 25th level. 


    so that said, i dunno if i'm the worst person to ask if bards can solo, cuz i forced mine to do so despite the haters... or if i'm the BEST person to ask.   :D :D :D 

    that said... as i mentioned, swashbuckler, SWF line, and warchanter have really helped out a lot. and yes, i would consider a bard able to solo at this time. still a bit on the challenging side, like a rogue, but definitely doable. 
    Ungoodcheyane
  • katzklawkatzklaw Member UncommonPosts: 101
    now it's practically easy-sauce. faceroll most trash mobs. cleave with warchanter ability "spinning ice" watch as all the trash turns to ice statues around you and now takes helpless damage AND sneak attack damage. kill everthing. rinse and repeat thru the dungeon. heal and buff as needed
  • katzklawkatzklaw Member UncommonPosts: 101
    edited April 2020
    cheyane said:
    Fantastic idea on the stunning blow and using sneak attack after you stun it. Probably solo mostly I won't get many groups I doubt I will anyway.
    just FYI, you don't need to do anything special to get sneak attack. it will just happen if you meet the requirements... IE, the mob either can't see you (thru blindness or bluff) or is CCed as i mentioned. 


    i realize you're playing a pure monk, but i will say i absolutely TORE mobs up so fast it wasn't even funny with a rogue monk mix. i would stunning fist, and literally kill things within 1-2 hits with the huge sneak attack/ helpless damage i was getting. i killed stuff so fast i had to wait for the refresh on stunning fist, and it's not that long!  he was supposed to be an assassin... but he killed mobs so fast with stunning fist/sneak attack that he literally almost never got the chance to assassinate anything. LOL
    Ungoodcheyane
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,404
    edited April 2020
    I have actually never tried to multiclass. Not even sure how to. Do you like just go speak to another trainer for the level you desire to take another class or are there some requirements or things you have to unlock to take another class?
    Ungood
    Garrus Signature
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    edited April 2020
    cheyane said:
    I have actually never tried to multiclass. Not even sure how to. Do you like just go speak to another trainer for the level you desire to take another class or are there some requirements or things you have to unlock to take another class?
    That's it, just talk to a different trainer.

    They mention some nonsense about dual classing that became surprisingly forgettable as the years went by, and then I would say back them "yes, I have no idea what I am doing, I think Sorcerer would be a great addition to my last 10 Barbarian levels"

    This is also why the ongoing joke is never level up when you are drunk or stoned. 

    I am going to say.. don't multi-class unless you have planned the Multi-Class in advance.. made that mistake with my fighter, I added in Ranger levels on a whim, and while it was kinda what I wanted, so I liked where it was going, but because I was going about it unplanned and ass sideways.. I ended up needing to do a complete TR to fix them.

    And while in most cases it is just a matter of spacing things out, or the order you take the classes in, to get the most advantage, sometimes, it is a matter of some classes not having good mixing abilities. Like for example, you can't be a Lawful Bard, so you can't mix Bard with Monk or Paladin, that is something you would need to take into consideration when theorycrafting a build. Or for example, when a barbarian rages you can't cast spells, so mixing a barbarian and say a sorcerer is not an ideal combo.
    cheyane
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    xD_Gaming said:
    So if I am chaotic, I will need to choose chaotic classes ?
    You will need to choose classes that can take a Chaotic alignment. Like for example, Wizards can be Any Alignment, so can Warlocks, Rogues, Sorcerers, Fighters, Rangers, Clerics, Favored Souls, Artis, and Alchemist..

    Now. Bards, Barbarians, Paladins, Druids, and Monks, all have their own specific alignment restrictions. 

    Now here is where things get fun.

    Warlocks can be any Alignment, but their Alignment can affect what Pact options they can have.

    Also, your alignment can affect what weapons and gear you can use, as DDO has a whole series of Alignment based gear.

    To give an example, if you are a Chaotic Aligned player, you can wield Arnanic Weapons, but take a neg level if you try to use a Axiomatic Weapon.

    At the same time, a True Chaos weapon can only be used by a Chaotic player.

    It's a complex game.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,404
    Ungood said:
    xD_Gaming said:
    So if I am chaotic, I will need to choose chaotic classes ?
    You will need to choose classes that can take a Chaotic alignment. Like for example, Wizards can be Any Alignment, so can Warlocks, Rogues, Sorcerers, Fighters, Rangers, Clerics, Favored Souls, Artis, and Alchemist..

    Now. Bards, Barbarians, Paladins, Druids, and Monks, all have their own specific alignment restrictions. 

    Now here is where things get fun.

    Warlocks can be any Alignment, but their Alignment can affect what Pact options they can have.

    Also, your alignment can affect what weapons and gear you can use, as DDO has a whole series of Alignment based gear.

    To give an example, if you are a Chaotic Aligned player, you can wield Arnanic Weapons, but take a neg level if you try to use a Axiomatic Weapon.

    At the same time, a True Chaos weapon can only be used by a Chaotic player.

    It's a complex game.
    Yeah so many wonderful ideas.  Pity other games didn't adopt any.
    Ungood
    Garrus Signature
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    cheyane said:
    Ungood said:
    xD_Gaming said:
    So if I am chaotic, I will need to choose chaotic classes ?
    You will need to choose classes that can take a Chaotic alignment. Like for example, Wizards can be Any Alignment, so can Warlocks, Rogues, Sorcerers, Fighters, Rangers, Clerics, Favored Souls, Artis, and Alchemist..

    Now. Bards, Barbarians, Paladins, Druids, and Monks, all have their own specific alignment restrictions. 

    Now here is where things get fun.

    Warlocks can be any Alignment, but their Alignment can affect what Pact options they can have.

    Also, your alignment can affect what weapons and gear you can use, as DDO has a whole series of Alignment based gear.

    To give an example, if you are a Chaotic Aligned player, you can wield Arnanic Weapons, but take a neg level if you try to use a Axiomatic Weapon.

    At the same time, a True Chaos weapon can only be used by a Chaotic player.

    It's a complex game.
    Yeah so many wonderful ideas.  Pity other games didn't adopt any.
    That's all part of the 3.5 AD&D rule system.

    DDO at its core is AD&D 3.5 MMO, and for those that enjoy that kind of system, it feels like home.

    This includes gear, mobs, classes, races, abilities, feats, and the like.

    For me, this is kinda what I had hoped to find with an MMO, a massive online version of Dungeons and Dragons.
    YashaX
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 8,177
    edited April 2020
    Damn you guys are all having fun I haven't found time yet to play despite being locked in. I need to also check on builds since I cannot find my old builds that I meticulously planned and then printed out. Bet they are outdated anyway.

    Tomorrow is shopping for groceries followed by hours of imagining I have the virus. Down to a psychosomatic cough and fever. Even have a thermometer next to my computer.
    Ungoodcheyane

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    edited April 2020
    FTR....

    Some of you are LOST in the past,devs have created much more complex formulas instead of simple dice rolls because it adds more depth and realism to combat.
    Geesh ALL of game design has long surpassed DnD,to me it is not relevant anymore.

    So it is not about "that type of system"it is more about the same ideas just done better.

    I played some of the earliest versions of,the Ultima's and Might n Magics,Wizardry,Baldurs gates,if there was an early rpg,i played it,Lands of lore all of them.

    It was sort of intriguing playing rpg's in the past because not many knew what was coming next,what item/loot lay around the corner,nobody knew.Then years later you look back at guides and it's like best item was a +10 sword or some weapon with +5 to hit etc etc.Like i said modern formulas surpass the simplicity behind ancient game designs.

    There is however room ,a LOT of room to improve on all aspects of our mmorpg's.Will we see a game improve the modern designs,i sure hope so because i am sick of kickstarter crap and garbage games trying to advertise to us like i am some sucker.


    MendelYashaX

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    Wizardry said:
    FTR....

    Some of you are LOST in the past,devs have created much more complex formulas instead of simple dice rolls because it adds more depth and realism to combat.
    Geesh ALL of game design has long surpassed DnD,to me it is not relevant anymore.

    So it is not about "that type of system"it is more about the same ideas just done better.

    I played some of the earliest versions of,the Ultima's and Might n Magics,Wizardry,Baldurs gates,if there was an early rpg,i played it,Lands of lore all of them.

    It was sort of intriguing playing rpg's in the past because not many knew what was coming next,what item/loot lay around the corner,nobody knew.Then years later you look back at guides and it's like best item was a +10 sword or some weapon with +5 to hit etc etc.Like i said modern formulas surpass the simplicity behind ancient game designs.

    There is however room ,a LOT of room to improve on all aspects of our mmorpg's.Will we see a game improve the modern designs,i sure hope so because i am sick of kickstarter crap and garbage games trying to advertise to us like i am some sucker.


    Sure.. there is a lot of room for improvement, modern MMO's could have some amazing systems in place to add depths of realism like we have never seen before.

    Instead they are basically controller based simplistic games of action/interaction.

    So while the room is there.. No one is using it.

    Which is what makes DDO so amazing, it's 14 years old, and still today seems to be one of the very few MMO's that is using any of that room at all.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • hfztthfztt Member RarePosts: 1,401
    For me the killer system is the whole Search, Spot, Traps, Locks, Hidden Doors etc. system that adds such nice depth to the adventures. It not only about DPS.
    SovrathUngoodNyghthowlerYashaXkatzklaw
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,499
    Ungood said:
    Wizardry said:
    FTR....

    Some of you are LOST in the past,devs have created much more complex formulas instead of simple dice rolls because it adds more depth and realism to combat.
    Geesh ALL of game design has long surpassed DnD,to me it is not relevant anymore.

    So it is not about "that type of system"it is more about the same ideas just done better.

    I played some of the earliest versions of,the Ultima's and Might n Magics,Wizardry,Baldurs gates,if there was an early rpg,i played it,Lands of lore all of them.

    It was sort of intriguing playing rpg's in the past because not many knew what was coming next,what item/loot lay around the corner,nobody knew.Then years later you look back at guides and it's like best item was a +10 sword or some weapon with +5 to hit etc etc.Like i said modern formulas surpass the simplicity behind ancient game designs.

    There is however room ,a LOT of room to improve on all aspects of our mmorpg's.Will we see a game improve the modern designs,i sure hope so because i am sick of kickstarter crap and garbage games trying to advertise to us like i am some sucker.


    Sure.. there is a lot of room for improvement, modern MMO's could have some amazing systems in place to add depths of realism like we have never seen before.

    Instead they are basically controller based simplistic games of action/interaction.

    So while the room is there.. No one is using it.

    Which is what makes DDO so amazing, it's 14 years old, and still today seems to be one of the very few MMO's that is using any of that room at all.
    For being controller-based, a whole lot of MMOs sure are awkward to play on a controller.  Complexity isn't what kills controller usage.  Requiring fast, precise analog motions is what kills controller usage.  A game like FFXIV is plenty controller-friendly in spite of its complexity, in part because Square-Enix decided that was a major priority in designing the game.  A whack-a-mole type game that only uses a single mouse button and nothing else could be completely unplayable on a controller in spite of its simplicity.
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,843
    The only PvE only (might as well be) mmorpg that I put some time into and enjoyed.
    [Deleted User]UngoodYashaX
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,499
    I've now played through the entire Korthos and Borderlands quest lines.  I've done all of the level 1 quests on hard (except The Grotto, which is solo-only) and most of them on elite.

    For Korthos on normal, I did it completely solo.  Mobs would mostly miss when they attacked you, and even if they hit, the question was whether they'd do 1 damage or 0.  For Borderlands on normal, it quickly became obvious that that wasn't viable.  One mob takes two HP off of you, another takes 3, and pretty soon, you end up dead if you don't have healing.  Bring a hireling healer and it's trivial again.

    I wanted to try Borderlands and not just Korthos because the latter is explicitly intended as a newbie zone and the former is not.  Newbie areas are likely to make things really easy to ensure that a brand new player who has no clue what he's doing doesn't get stuck.  Borderlands is largely intended as a level 21 zone that also has a level 1 variant, so I'm expecting that to be more typical of non-endgame content.  Korthos quests on one difficulty tend to be about as hard as Borderlands quests on the next difficulty down.

    For the most part, Borderlands on elite is about the level of difficulty I was hoping for.  It was disappointing when I realized that success is heavily dependent with how good the hireling is at healing me.  I expect that on most characters, I'll just skip the normal difficulty entirely and go straight to either hard or elite.

    There were only three level 1 quests that I wasn't able to beat on elite with just a hireling:

    1)  The Grotto, which is solo-only and has no elite difficulty,
    2)  The Cannith Crystal, where mobs ignore you and go straight for the crystal and can kill it in a few hits, causing the quest to fail, and
    2)  Obstructing the Orcs, where the boss fights just have too many mobs dealing too much damage too fast.

    I've run into several bugs.  For starters, my rogue is now level 1, rank 12, so that "you can only store one level worth of experience" cap isn't as hard of a cap as is probably intended.  It seems that monster manual is the experience source that lets you go over the cap.

    Redemption also bugged to be uncompletable once.  After killing the Sahuagin so that I only had to talk to Lars Heyton to finish the quest, the hard barrier over the water disappeared.  I decided to see what was under the water, and then the hard barrier returned, trapping me underwater.  Dying and releasing apparently forces you to restart a quest from scratch, which was annoying.

    The game has a significant problem with lag.  Most of the time, it's fine.  But occasionally, you get some awful lag spike and can barely move for a while.

    Inventory management is kind of annoying.  Collectibles, ingredients, and especially gems seem like they're designed specifically to run you out of bag space.  Yes, there are dedicated bags for each of those, and I have such bags, but that only helps until those sub-bags fill up.

    Almost everywhere seems like it has low mob density.  Many MMORPGs pack mobs together far more tightly, sometimes to the extent that it seems dumb for mobs to not notice that a fight is going on.  I once saw a comic that had the head of the Scarlet Monastery (in WoW) say something to the effect of, we're under attack, so everyone split into groups of three and wait to be pulled.  DDO aggro ranges are more logical.

    I was surprised to see how much stuff like search and spot and pick lock gets used.  Groups that don't have someone who can access that are going to miss quite a bit of loot.  I'm not sure if I think that's a good thing or a bad thing.  If you're a rogue, it's nice to be needed, but it could get annoying on most other classes.
    [Deleted User]Ungood
  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534
    xD_Gaming said:
    Quizzical said:
    I've now played through the entire Korthos and Borderlands quest lines.  I've done all of the level 1 quests on hard (except The Grotto, which is solo-only) and most of them on elite.

    For Korthos on normal, I did it completely solo.  Mobs would mostly miss when they attacked you, and even if they hit, the question was whether they'd do 1 damage or 0.  For Borderlands on normal, it quickly became obvious that that wasn't viable.  One mob takes two HP off of you, another takes 3, and pretty soon, you end up dead if you don't have healing.  Bring a hireling healer and it's trivial again.

    I wanted to try Borderlands and not just Korthos because the latter is explicitly intended as a newbie zone and the former is not.  Newbie areas are likely to make things really easy to ensure that a brand new player who has no clue what he's doing doesn't get stuck.  Borderlands is largely intended as a level 21 zone that also has a level 1 variant, so I'm expecting that to be more typical of non-endgame content.  Korthos quests on one difficulty tend to be about as hard as Borderlands quests on the next difficulty down.

    For the most part, Borderlands on elite is about the level of difficulty I was hoping for.  It was disappointing when I realized that success is heavily dependent with how good the hireling is at healing me.  I expect that on most characters, I'll just skip the normal difficulty entirely and go straight to either hard or elite.

    There were only three level 1 quests that I wasn't able to beat on elite with just a hireling:

    1)  The Grotto, which is solo-only and has no elite difficulty,
    2)  The Cannith Crystal, where mobs ignore you and go straight for the crystal and can kill it in a few hits, causing the quest to fail, and
    2)  Obstructing the Orcs, where the boss fights just have too many mobs dealing too much damage too fast.

    I've run into several bugs.  For starters, my rogue is now level 1, rank 12, so that "you can only store one level worth of experience" cap isn't as hard of a cap as is probably intended.  It seems that monster manual is the experience source that lets you go over the cap.

    Redemption also bugged to be uncompletable once.  After killing the Sahuagin so that I only had to talk to Lars Heyton to finish the quest, the hard barrier over the water disappeared.  I decided to see what was under the water, and then the hard barrier returned, trapping me underwater.  Dying and releasing apparently forces you to restart a quest from scratch, which was annoying.

    The game has a significant problem with lag.  Most of the time, it's fine.  But occasionally, you get some awful lag spike and can barely move for a while.

    Inventory management is kind of annoying.  Collectibles, ingredients, and especially gems seem like they're designed specifically to run you out of bag space.  Yes, there are dedicated bags for each of those, and I have such bags, but that only helps until those sub-bags fill up.

    Almost everywhere seems like it has low mob density.  Many MMORPGs pack mobs together far more tightly, sometimes to the extent that it seems dumb for mobs to not notice that a fight is going on.  I once saw a comic that had the head of the Scarlet Monastery (in WoW) say something to the effect of, we're under attack, so everyone split into groups of three and wait to be pulled.  DDO aggro ranges are more logical.

    I was surprised to see how much stuff like search and spot and pick lock gets used.  Groups that don't have someone who can access that are going to miss quite a bit of loot.  I'm not sure if I think that's a good thing or a bad thing.  If you're a rogue, it's nice to be needed, but it could get annoying on most other classes.
    after rerolling over 30 times, I learn Kothos is not even apit stop, I drove through saying 




    Korthos is a solid starter zone, it gives you some decent gear, and lets you learn the basic ropes of the game, which is very much needed for a game like DDO, but as Quizzical said, it is not intended to be a challenge, running things on Elite, can give you a hard fight if you do not have some kind of healing going on, be it a fellow group mate, or a hire, you will need a way to sustain.

    Now when you get the Harbor, things kick up a bit, and as the quests go up in levels, they increase in both blanket difficulty, and in some cases, complexity.

    There is a lot to do in DDO, and now that Quizzical has mentioned it.. I will be looking into Borderlands. Sounds like fun.

    Also good to know about that Hard Cap being in flux, they may have changed things since last I played.. or it could be a bug new feature.
    [Deleted User]
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,499
    To be clear, I don't object to the existence of newbie zones.  Newbie zones should be easy, as you want new players to succeed at something right away rather than bashing them over the head for not being instant experts.  What I object to is when games treat almost the entire game like that.  So I was glad to see that Borderlands is a lot harder than Korthos.
    Ungood
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