Very Interesting Article on the Death Penalty in MMORPGs

Iselin

Kyleran said:

Why? Death penalties aren't contrived, players lose their ships or bases which represents very real amounts of time and effort, so protecting them is very much an accomplishment, moreso than any ther "contrived" player goal, at least IMO.

It is ALWAYS nothing but a time sink. The length of time varies but that's it. Apparently you are motivated by fear of time sinks... time sinks that take you away from the enjoyable part of the game sucks. But you be you and have fun with that

And a big lol at the DAoC ffa servers where the death penalty was 100% identical to that in the core servers. The only thing different was that anyone of any faction could kill you anywhere so factions had zero meaning there. It was a gang wars and mugging simulator whereas the core DAoC was the "nations at war" simulator. But you're right, different strokes.

AlBQuirky

I can't say I "liked" EQ's death penalty, but I preferred it to most of the others I've encountered in MMOs. Sometimes, it was a pain in the ass. Other times, it created situations to "ask for help" and possibly meet players you may never meet (higher levels, usually). EQ's death penalty was another possible social situaton, if one wanted to look at it that way, which I did

City of Heroes was simply an "Experience point debt" that had to repaid first before normal experience resumed. That wasn't too bad, yet much more lenient. You basically got 1/2 experience value until that debt was paid off. There were Super Groups formed that thrived on this penalty and they constantly kept themselves in debt. It basically made the game "twice as long" as normal experience accruals, which we know most MMO player want no part of. But is also allowed superheroes to be heroes. I was in a Super Group and its alliances where if a party was wiping, there would be arguments about who would stay to keep the aggro of the mobs while the others ran to safety to hopefully get the party back on its feet. "Healer out now!" was a common command from the tank

Iselin said:

How can the main hero demigod who's going to save the world die? Film over... roll the credits And what's this resurrection bit all about? Go permadeath or go home... sheesh.

Death penalties in MMOs? They are just contrived punishments to make you fear death because presumably that makes not dying feel like an accomplishment. That's great if you're playing in order to accomplish not dying, I guess. But then you get up, jump through whatever death penalty hoops they've devised and eventually get back to playing where you want to play... some accomplishment that lol.

For the rest of us who play for the journey those penalties are just annoying disruptions to what we enjoy. I'd much rather get the dying bit over with as quickly as possible so I can go back and tackle the thing I was trying to do when I died - which presumably is the thing I enjoy doing in the game - immediately.

I don't need to be punished with obnoxious time sinks. I'm not a masochist. I know I failed and what motivates me is to do it all over again until I don't fail. The quicker I get back to trying to succeed the better.

 

Am I to take it that you don't want a challenge? Something hard?

If dying is "just a terrible time sink", than what makes a game hard for you? Sounds like dying is not one of them.

Then again, one players "punishment" is another "opportunity."

Not trying to say good or bad, just curious how you view "challenging."

[edit]

Just had a thought! Wouldn't a great (for companies) death penalty be a GREAT cash shop mechanic? You could even tier the resurrection costs and gains

Iselin

AlBQuirky said:

Iselin said:

How can the main hero demigod who's going to save the world die? Film over... roll the credits And what's this resurrection bit all about? Go permadeath or go home... sheesh.

Death penalties in MMOs? They are just contrived punishments to make you fear death because presumably that makes not dying feel like an accomplishment. That's great if you're playing in order to accomplish not dying, I guess. But then you get up, jump through whatever death penalty hoops they've devised and eventually get back to playing where you want to play... some accomplishment that lol.

For the rest of us who play for the journey those penalties are just annoying disruptions to what we enjoy. I'd much rather get the dying bit over with as quickly as possible so I can go back and tackle the thing I was trying to do when I died - which presumably is the thing I enjoy doing in the game - immediately.

I don't need to be punished with obnoxious time sinks. I'm not a masochist. I know I failed and what motivates me is to do it all over again until I don't fail. The quicker I get back to trying to succeed the better.

 

Am I to take it that you don't want a challenge? Something hard?

If dying is "just a terrible time sink", than what makes a game hard for you? Sounds like dying is not one of them.

Then again, one players "punishment" is another "opportunity."

Not trying to say good or bad, just curious how you view "challenging."

No, I definitely want hard and the harder the better. But that's irrelevant to death punishment. I don't mind dying over and over if I'm trying to do something tough. It's the artificial wait imposed by the death penalties between the dying over and over part to the content I enjoy that I have no use for.

Amaranthar

You know, I've often thought of how an MMORPG would be if there was no auto-resurrection at all. No ghosts, no presence at all in-game for a dead character, except their corpse and eventual bones.
(Alts, of course.) 

If the only ways you got your character back from dying was if another player Resurrected your character. Or maybe an NPC if they were around and had a whim to do so. 

How often would a player with a higher level character, and friends, who were capable of Ressing do a "recovery run"?
What about simply recovering the skull of said character and taking it to a Temple for Resurrections? 

Would some players form a guild and go around collecting skulls they found and taking them to Temples?
In UO, there were guilds of "Healers" that mimicked the NPC Healers, and performed such duties, just for the fun of RPing it. 

Of course, players could lose their characters permanently if there's no help to be found, and if they never do it themselves with another character. 

KnightFalz

I skimmed through the article, but it really isn't saying anything that I haven't read before. I still see no particular benefit to harshly punitive death penalties.

Failure in itself already wastes my time. I'm not inclined to also have a heaping pile of salt rubbed into that wound for good measure.

Such would simply constrain my play rather than enhance it as my aversion to risk would cause me to avoid all but the most trivial encounters.

Perhaps in the right setting, like one that is truly low fantasy with little to no magic, harsh penalties may be well suited such that it counters my distaste for them. It would have to provide what I felt to be an exceptional experience.

Kyleran

Iselin said:

Kyleran said:

Why? Death penalties aren't contrived, players lose their ships or bases which represents very real amounts of time and effort, so protecting them is very much an accomplishment, moreso than any ther "contrived" player goal, at least IMO.

It is ALWAYS nothing but a time sink. The length of time varies but that's it. Apparently you are motivated by fear of time sinks... time sinks that take you away from the enjoyable part of the game sucks. But you be you and have fun with that

And a big lol at the DAoC ffa servers where the death penalty was 100% identical to that in the core servers. The only thing different was that anyone of any faction could kill you anywhere so factions had zero meaning there. It was a gang wars and mugging simulator whereas the core DAoC was the "nations at war" simulator. But you're right, different strokes.

Yes, the FFA server was exactly as you describe, death and its associated penalties (which included a decent amount of gold lost) was around every corner.

Meant one couldn't just go out and mindlessly pull camps, instead having to be alert at all time and make fight or flight decisions at a moments notice. 

I played only on WOWs PVP servers for similar reason, more challenge and yes, avoiding death and its penalties is an important part of gameplay to me.

Still, both games weren't enough, especially in PVP there was no meaning, players always charged into the fray with no real thought to their survival.

Well not unless you were part of an organized 8 man in DAOC Mordred, those groups definitely played to win without dying, never engaging in a fight unless all cooldown timers were over.

I did try one for a bit, but was a bit too serious faced for me.

EVE is where I found my home, finally, a game and gamers who understood that just as in real life warfare, it's pretty much a hollow victory if winning comes at too great a cost.

Amaranthar

Amaranthar said:

You know, I've often thought of how an MMORPG would be if there was no auto-resurrection at all. No ghosts, no presence at all in-game for a dead character, except their corpse and eventual bones.
(Alts, of course.) 

If the only ways you got your character back from dying was if another player Resurrected your character. Or maybe an NPC if they were around and had a whim to do so. 

How often would a player with a higher level character, and friends, who were capable of Ressing do a "recovery run"?
What about simply recovering the skull of said character and taking it to a Temple for Resurrections? 

Would some players form a guild and go around collecting skulls they found and taking them to Temples?
In UO, there were guilds of "Healers" that mimicked the NPC Healers, and performed such duties, just for the fun of RPing it. 

Of course, players could lose their characters permanently if there's no help to be found, and if they never do it themselves with another character. 

Imagine entering the dark caverns of an Ancient Wyrm, creeping slowly along, and seeing hundreds of skulls along the way, each with a former character's name on it. 
How ominous would that feel? LOL

Iselin

Kyleran said:

Iselin said:

Kyleran said:

Why? Death penalties aren't contrived, players lose their ships or bases which represents very real amounts of time and effort, so protecting them is very much an accomplishment, moreso than any ther "contrived" player goal, at least IMO.

It is ALWAYS nothing but a time sink. The length of time varies but that's it. Apparently you are motivated by fear of time sinks... time sinks that take you away from the enjoyable part of the game sucks. But you be you and have fun with that

And a big lol at the DAoC ffa servers where the death penalty was 100% identical to that in the core servers. The only thing different was that anyone of any faction could kill you anywhere so factions had zero meaning there. It was a gang wars and mugging simulator whereas the core DAoC was the "nations at war" simulator. But you're right, different strokes.

Yes, the FFA server was exactly as you describe, death and its associated penalties (which included a decent amount of gold lost) was around every corner.

Meant one couldn't just go out and mindlessly pull camps, instead having to be alert at all time and make fight or flight decisions at a moments notice. 

I played only on WOWs PVP servers for similar reason, more challenge and yes, avoiding death and its penalties is an important part of gameplay to me.

Still, both games weren't enough, especially in PVP there was no meaning, players always charged into the fray with no real thought to their survival.

Well not unless you were part of an organized 8 man in DAOC Mordred, those groups definitely played to win without dying, never engaging in a fight unless all cooldown timers were over.

I did try one for a bit, but was a bit too serious faced for me.

EVE is where I found my home, finally, a game and gamers who understood that just as in real life warfare, it's pretty much a hollow victory if winning comes at too great a cost.

You're making the classic mistake of equating lack of harsh death penalties with easy and YOLO Leroy Jenkins game play.

I DO NOT need fear of time sinks to motivate me to play to the best of my abilities. I always play that way regardless. So to me they are just annoyances that at best may motivate idiots to not play idiotically. I do not need that shit.

Amaranthar

Iselin said:

Kyleran said:

Iselin said:

Kyleran said:

Why? Death penalties aren't contrived, players lose their ships or bases which represents very real amounts of time and effort, so protecting them is very much an accomplishment, moreso than any ther "contrived" player goal, at least IMO.

It is ALWAYS nothing but a time sink. The length of time varies but that's it. Apparently you are motivated by fear of time sinks... time sinks that take you away from the enjoyable part of the game sucks. But you be you and have fun with that

And a big lol at the DAoC ffa servers where the death penalty was 100% identical to that in the core servers. The only thing different was that anyone of any faction could kill you anywhere so factions had zero meaning there. It was a gang wars and mugging simulator whereas the core DAoC was the "nations at war" simulator. But you're right, different strokes.

Yes, the FFA server was exactly as you describe, death and its associated penalties (which included a decent amount of gold lost) was around every corner.

Meant one couldn't just go out and mindlessly pull camps, instead having to be alert at all time and make fight or flight decisions at a moments notice. 

I played only on WOWs PVP servers for similar reason, more challenge and yes, avoiding death and its penalties is an important part of gameplay to me.

Still, both games weren't enough, especially in PVP there was no meaning, players always charged into the fray with no real thought to their survival.

Well not unless you were part of an organized 8 man in DAOC Mordred, those groups definitely played to win without dying, never engaging in a fight unless all cooldown timers were over.

I did try one for a bit, but was a bit too serious faced for me.

EVE is where I found my home, finally, a game and gamers who understood that just as in real life warfare, it's pretty much a hollow victory if winning comes at too great a cost.

You're making the classic mistake of equating lack of harsh death penalties with easy and YOLO Leroy Jenkins game play.

I DO NOT need fear of time sinks to motivate me to play to the best of my abilities. I always play that way regardless. So to me they are just annoyances that at best may motivate idiots to not play idiotically. I do not need that shit.

How about the "thrill of victory"? 
It's always bothered me that there isn't much of that, because there's no "agony of defeat." 

That's one of several reasons that MMORPGs feel so lackluster, IMO. 

To each their own, but that's mine. 

Iselin

tzervo said:

Iselin said:

You're making the classic mistake of equating lack of harsh death penalties with easy and YOLO Leroy Jenkins game play.

I DO NOT need fear of time sinks to motivate me to play to the best of my abilities. I always play that way regardless. So to me they are just annoyances that at best may motivate idiots to not play idiotically. I do not need that shit.

Harsh death penalties DO prevent YOLO behaviours. They are not just time sinks, they are regressions, and that is the difference compared to no penalty: you have no checkpoints, you have no limit to how much you can lose(especially if you repeatedly mess up), and you need to evaluate risk vs reward. The playstyle changes completely in this context.

Idiots are not going to play less idiotically in such games. They will generally go to easier games that make them feel less like an idiot. That does not mean that no-death-penalty games cannot attract or challenge skilled or smart people, but they will on average attract more idiots.

So a regression is not a time sink during the time it takes you to get back to where you used to be, be it level progress or location, or gear or all 3? That's a pretty convoluted differentiation. It's a time sink.

I play Diablo 3 HC every season at very high levels. GR100+ if that means anything to you. That has permadeath. Do you know what you lose with permadeath? The time it takes you to get a replacement back to the same capability as your now dead hero was.


Amaranthar said:

Iselin said:

Kyleran said:

Iselin said:

Kyleran said:

Why? Death penalties aren't contrived, players lose their ships or bases which represents very real amounts of time and effort, so protecting them is very much an accomplishment, moreso than any ther "contrived" player goal, at least IMO.

It is ALWAYS nothing but a time sink. The length of time varies but that's it. Apparently you are motivated by fear of time sinks... time sinks that take you away from the enjoyable part of the game sucks. But you be you and have fun with that

And a big lol at the DAoC ffa servers where the death penalty was 100% identical to that in the core servers. The only thing different was that anyone of any faction could kill you anywhere so factions had zero meaning there. It was a gang wars and mugging simulator whereas the core DAoC was the "nations at war" simulator. But you're right, different strokes.

Yes, the FFA server was exactly as you describe, death and its associated penalties (which included a decent amount of gold lost) was around every corner.

Meant one couldn't just go out and mindlessly pull camps, instead having to be alert at all time and make fight or flight decisions at a moments notice. 

I played only on WOWs PVP servers for similar reason, more challenge and yes, avoiding death and its penalties is an important part of gameplay to me.

Still, both games weren't enough, especially in PVP there was no meaning, players always charged into the fray with no real thought to their survival.

Well not unless you were part of an organized 8 man in DAOC Mordred, those groups definitely played to win without dying, never engaging in a fight unless all cooldown timers were over.

I did try one for a bit, but was a bit too serious faced for me.

EVE is where I found my home, finally, a game and gamers who understood that just as in real life warfare, it's pretty much a hollow victory if winning comes at too great a cost.

You're making the classic mistake of equating lack of harsh death penalties with easy and YOLO Leroy Jenkins game play.

I DO NOT need fear of time sinks to motivate me to play to the best of my abilities. I always play that way regardless. So to me they are just annoyances that at best may motivate idiots to not play idiotically. I do not need that shit.

How about the "thrill of victory"? 
It's always bothered me that there isn't much of that, because there's no "agony of defeat." 

That's one of several reasons that MMORPGs feel so lackluster, IMO. 

To each their own, but that's mine. 

The "agony of defeat" comes from the defeat. Not any punishment you tack on to it.

Aeander

Iselin said:

tzervo said:

Iselin said:

You're making the classic mistake of equating lack of harsh death penalties with easy and YOLO Leroy Jenkins game play.

I DO NOT need fear of time sinks to motivate me to play to the best of my abilities. I always play that way regardless. So to me they are just annoyances that at best may motivate idiots to not play idiotically. I do not need that shit.

Harsh death penalties DO prevent YOLO behaviours. They are not just time sinks, they are regressions, and that is the difference compared to no penalty: you have no checkpoints, you have no limit to how much you can lose(especially if you repeatedly mess up), and you need to evaluate risk vs reward. The playstyle changes completely in this context.

Idiots are not going to play less idiotically in such games. They will generally go to easier games that make them feel less like an idiot. That does not mean that no-death-penalty games cannot attract or challenge skilled or smart people, but they will on average attract more idiots.

So a regression is not a time sink during the time it takes you to get back to where you used to be, be it level progress or location, or gear or all 3? That's a pretty convoluted differentiation. It's a time sink.

I play Diablo 3 HC every season at very high levels. GR100+ if that means anything to you. That has permadeath. Do you know what you lose with permadeath? The time it takes you to get a replacement back to the same capability as your now dead hero was.


Amaranthar said:

Iselin said:

Kyleran said:

Iselin said:

Kyleran said:

Why? Death penalties aren't contrived, players lose their ships or bases which represents very real amounts of time and effort, so protecting them is very much an accomplishment, moreso than any ther "contrived" player goal, at least IMO.

It is ALWAYS nothing but a time sink. The length of time varies but that's it. Apparently you are motivated by fear of time sinks... time sinks that take you away from the enjoyable part of the game sucks. But you be you and have fun with that

And a big lol at the DAoC ffa servers where the death penalty was 100% identical to that in the core servers. The only thing different was that anyone of any faction could kill you anywhere so factions had zero meaning there. It was a gang wars and mugging simulator whereas the core DAoC was the "nations at war" simulator. But you're right, different strokes.

Yes, the FFA server was exactly as you describe, death and its associated penalties (which included a decent amount of gold lost) was around every corner.

Meant one couldn't just go out and mindlessly pull camps, instead having to be alert at all time and make fight or flight decisions at a moments notice. 

I played only on WOWs PVP servers for similar reason, more challenge and yes, avoiding death and its penalties is an important part of gameplay to me.

Still, both games weren't enough, especially in PVP there was no meaning, players always charged into the fray with no real thought to their survival.

Well not unless you were part of an organized 8 man in DAOC Mordred, those groups definitely played to win without dying, never engaging in a fight unless all cooldown timers were over.

I did try one for a bit, but was a bit too serious faced for me.

EVE is where I found my home, finally, a game and gamers who understood that just as in real life warfare, it's pretty much a hollow victory if winning comes at too great a cost.

You're making the classic mistake of equating lack of harsh death penalties with easy and YOLO Leroy Jenkins game play.

I DO NOT need fear of time sinks to motivate me to play to the best of my abilities. I always play that way regardless. So to me they are just annoyances that at best may motivate idiots to not play idiotically. I do not need that shit.

How about the "thrill of victory"? 
It's always bothered me that there isn't much of that, because there's no "agony of defeat." 

That's one of several reasons that MMORPGs feel so lackluster, IMO. 

To each their own, but that's mine. 

The "agony of defeat" comes from the defeat. Not any punishment you tack on to it.

Yeah, I make an exception for HC in Diablo 3, but that's just because progression in that game is so fun.

For all that it gets so right, I can't play HC in Path of Exile because the combat and character building in the early/mid game is so... fucking... boring. 

Iselin

Aeander said:

Yeah, I make an exception for HC in Diablo 3, but that's just because progression in that game is so fun.

For all that it gets so right, I can't play HC in Path of Exile because the combat and character building in the early/mid game is so... fucking... boring. 

The only reason I play D3 HC is for the same reason I play in all 3 servers, NA, EU and Asia: so I can do the 1-70 and whatever GR I get to before the fiddly end-game grind kills my soul, part 6 times.

I enjoy the leveling and early gearing - making do with less than fully optimized builds - not so much the paragon grinding and leveling up legendary gems to use as augments that the end-game is all about once you have nearly perfect gear.

Iselin

tzervo said:

Iselin said:

So a regression is not a time sink during the time it takes you to get back to where you used to be, be it level progress or location, or gear or all 3? That's a pretty convoluted differentiation. It's a time sink.

I play Diablo 3 HC every season at very high levels. GR100+ if that means anything to you. That has permadeath. Do you know what you lose with permadeath? The time it takes you to get a replacement back to the same capability as your now dead hero was.

a) Take a challenging content. Every time you die you go back to the beginning.

b) Take the same content, make it harder and put a checkpoint half way.

A player playing in context (a) will play very differently from a player that plays in context (b). For both (a) and (b) the challenge is, lets say, the same, both (a) and (b) lose time if they die (timesink), but if (b) dies after the checkpoint, no biggie.

Now scale it up. It is now an MMORPG so it is open ended. (a) has no checkpoints but every time you die you rewind. (b) has no rewinds but you keep adding more and more checkpoints the further you progress in. Dieing gets you to the last checkpoint. Both are timesinks but the dynamics are different.

It all comes down to time spent in the end but I still do not agree with your oversimplification.

Potayto potahto. What you call oversimplification is just me telling it like it is without all the BS glorification of a crappy system.

Sovrath

Ancient_Exile said:

The Death Penalty Mechanic and Loss Aversion in MMO Design

https://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-death-penalty-mechanic-and-loss-aversion-in-mmo-design/

Please read it.  Whether you think you hate death penalties or not.

the article is fine but it doesn't really pertain to everyone.

I would tend to lean toward harder death penalties but unless I missed something, the article seems to claim that everyone reacts to loss and gain the same.

Which is just not true.

Iselin

tzervo said:

Potayto Tomato. You call them both vegetables I tell you they taste different.

OK that was good one

ChildoftheShadows

Kyleran said:

Now, if you a developer,  how do you create a death penalty which libertarian minded Iselin, (I have a right to my fun, nothing must disturb it) carebear EQ1 players, (give us tough death penalties, err but not really too tough) or sturdier gamers (if it didnt really hurt to obtain it, what is the point) such as I will enjoy?

Just like getting "carebear" PVE players to enjoy and stick around your OWPVP game. You don't. You make a choice to what degree you want in your game and go for it.

Whenever I think of these game design choices I can't help but think of Venn diagrams. You put all the people that like death penalties in one circle and all the people that like games with no death penalties in another circle. You can cater 100% to one or the other or you can slowly try to merge those where you'll get some overlap, but knowing good and well not everyone from either side is going to fit into that overlap.

LackingMMO

The big thing is risk vs reward.. right now it is out of wack. The players starting out have the same risk right outside the city gates as the players going for the best items in the most dangerous dungeon in the game which in turn is the same risk as the player that is running that highly important letter from one village to the other village 20 feet away. Its just very anticlimactic when the raid party whips and its just like ehh ok... the same feeling you get when it happened in the beginning of the game.

Amaranthar

ChildoftheShadows said:

Kyleran said:

Now, if you a developer,  how do you create a death penalty which libertarian minded Iselin, (I have a right to my fun, nothing must disturb it) carebear EQ1 players, (give us tough death penalties, err but not really too tough) or sturdier gamers (if it didnt really hurt to obtain it, what is the point) such as I will enjoy?

Just like getting "carebear" PVE players to enjoy and stick around your OWPVP game. You don't. You make a choice to what degree you want in your game and go for it.

Whenever I think of these game design choices I can't help but think of Venn diagrams. You put all the people that like death penalties in one circle and all the people that like games with no death penalties in another circle. You can cater 100% to one or the other or you can slowly try to merge those where you'll get some overlap, but knowing good and well not everyone from either side is going to fit into that overlap.

True. 
But you can slide those circles closer together or farther apart, and that makes some drastic changes to the inclusive number count. 

Utinni

Inconvenience isn't challenge.

Amaranthar

Utinni said:

Inconvenience isn't challenge.

Avoiding it is. 
That is, if you label losing as "inconvenience." 

Makes me wonder, are these no lose MMORPGs even games? 

cameltosis

I read the article, it was very well written with some compelling thoughts.

However, for me personally, "loss" is just something to be avoided and heavy death penalties will simply make me avoid the game completely. So, I can't really agree with the main thrust of the article, because it is already proven wrong for me personally and therefore likely to be wrong for many others too. Given the way the market went, I'd guess we're in the majority.

Why is the article wrong for me personally?

Because I play for FUN. And, on a psychological level, fun happens when the challenge is matched to my skill level. This means that, as a player, I seek out the most challenging content in the game and "test" myself against it. The best fights are the ones where success or failure balances on a knife edge (i.e. my skill equals, but doesn't exceed, the challenge), which means that death is common place for my playstyle.

So, if there was a harsh death penelty, it would directly prevent me from playing the game for maximum amounts of fun. I would be forced to lower the challenge level, in order to survive and not lose anything, which means lowering the amount of fun I would have.

Now, a harsh death penalty may mean I gain in other areas (such as socially, as the author points out, I would naturally seek more allies to reduce risk), but those other gains do not outweigh the loss of fun. Additionally, fear is not an emotion I welcome. Why the fuck do I want to be afraid when playing a game?!?!?! That's a concept I cannot understand one bit.

Finally, I'm of the opinion that all of the benefits the author is hoping to get through harsh death penalties can be achieved by a multitude of better gameplay mechanics.

ChildoftheShadows

Amaranthar said:

ChildoftheShadows said:

Kyleran said:

Now, if you a developer,  how do you create a death penalty which libertarian minded Iselin, (I have a right to my fun, nothing must disturb it) carebear EQ1 players, (give us tough death penalties, err but not really too tough) or sturdier gamers (if it didnt really hurt to obtain it, what is the point) such as I will enjoy?

Just like getting "carebear" PVE players to enjoy and stick around your OWPVP game. You don't. You make a choice to what degree you want in your game and go for it.

Whenever I think of these game design choices I can't help but think of Venn diagrams. You put all the people that like death penalties in one circle and all the people that like games with no death penalties in another circle. You can cater 100% to one or the other or you can slowly try to merge those where you'll get some overlap, but knowing good and well not everyone from either side is going to fit into that overlap.

True. 
But you can slide those circles closer together or farther apart, and that makes some drastic changes to the inclusive number count. 

Yes, but you are still making an active choice to exclude someone from the design which is why I've always stated that games shouldn't be designed to cater to more people and instead be designed around what the developer actually wants to play. You end up with a lot more possible outcomes where more gamers having something they truly enjoy.
Not to mention that when developers create something they like they will typically create a better game, I would assume

AlBQuirky

Iselin said:

AlBQuirky said:

Iselin said:

How can the main hero demigod who's going to save the world die? Film over... roll the credits And what's this resurrection bit all about? Go permadeath or go home... sheesh.

Death penalties in MMOs? They are just contrived punishments to make you fear death because presumably that makes not dying feel like an accomplishment. That's great if you're playing in order to accomplish not dying, I guess. But then you get up, jump through whatever death penalty hoops they've devised and eventually get back to playing where you want to play... some accomplishment that lol.

For the rest of us who play for the journey those penalties are just annoying disruptions to what we enjoy. I'd much rather get the dying bit over with as quickly as possible so I can go back and tackle the thing I was trying to do when I died - which presumably is the thing I enjoy doing in the game - immediately.

I don't need to be punished with obnoxious time sinks. I'm not a masochist. I know I failed and what motivates me is to do it all over again until I don't fail. The quicker I get back to trying to succeed the better.

 

Am I to take it that you don't want a challenge? Something hard?

If dying is "just a terrible time sink", than what makes a game hard for you? Sounds like dying is not one of them.

Then again, one players "punishment" is another "opportunity."

Not trying to say good or bad, just curious how you view "challenging."

No, I definitely want hard and the harder the better. But that's irrelevant to death punishment. I don't mind dying over and over if I'm trying to do something tough. It's the artificial wait imposed by the death penalties between the dying over and over part to the content I enjoy that I have no use for.

Interesting. It seems "fear of Death" is a component here. I get what you're saying, and to a point, I agree.

EQ had me quitting after I just hit level 38, ran through East Commonlands on my way to Freeport for some banking, and died because I beat a "Special Event" (Halloween thingie, I think) but had only a few hit points. As I sat to recover, a level 2 Orc Pawn decided I was easy prey and killed me. I lost my new level and the songs that went with it. I quit and never looked back.

The fear of death can be a boon or bane, depending on the player. Too much fear and they won't "try" anything just to see what happens. Too little and they don't care what happens. Each player has a different "point of no return."

I think the key is what Aeander alluded to: "progression in that game is so fun." If the progression is fun, I don't mind. I'm in no hurry to reach the "end of the game", aka endgame. If the progression is fun, lost time means very little. If progression is a pain the ass, lost time hurts tenfold.

You mentioned in a later post about "always playing my best." How do you do this when a new skill, ability, or spell is learned for the first time? Most games give very little "mechanical info" on these and the learning comes through trial and error. Or at least it used to

I know that a very harsh death penalty could make this learning extremely tedious and may even make players shy about experimenting. EQ's ended up pushing me away, after all.

I guess this came about because you state often how you like challenging gameplay and your comments about death penalties struck me as odd. I guess I see it as if there is zero fear of death and it is "just a bump in the road", how challenging can it be, if a player really cares not one whit about failure?

Again, not any judgement. It just struck me strangely

Amaranthar

ChildoftheShadows said:

Amaranthar said:

ChildoftheShadows said:

Kyleran said:

Now, if you a developer,  how do you create a death penalty which libertarian minded Iselin, (I have a right to my fun, nothing must disturb it) carebear EQ1 players, (give us tough death penalties, err but not really too tough) or sturdier gamers (if it didnt really hurt to obtain it, what is the point) such as I will enjoy?

Just like getting "carebear" PVE players to enjoy and stick around your OWPVP game. You don't. You make a choice to what degree you want in your game and go for it.

Whenever I think of these game design choices I can't help but think of Venn diagrams. You put all the people that like death penalties in one circle and all the people that like games with no death penalties in another circle. You can cater 100% to one or the other or you can slowly try to merge those where you'll get some overlap, but knowing good and well not everyone from either side is going to fit into that overlap.

True. 
But you can slide those circles closer together or farther apart, and that makes some drastic changes to the inclusive number count. 

Yes, but you are still making an active choice to exclude someone from the design which is why I've always stated that games shouldn't be designed to cater to more people and instead be designed around what the developer actually wants to play. You end up with a lot more possible outcomes where more gamers having something they truly enjoy.
Not to mention that when developers create something they like they will typically create a better game, I would assume

Oh boy, do I disagree with that one. 
It's a product, and it's a lot of money, and I think Devs need to look at it in a more professional way. 
There's a lot to look at in the MMORPG market to decide what to make. 

For one thing, in my mind anyways, is the wide open end of customers who are not satisfied. WoW kept only about 30% of their players who tried it. And that was WoW. 

Making another clone is getting riskier every day. 

I think you want to look at it all and figure out, to the best of your ability:
- where there's a market (that's not saturated already)
- what works and what doesn't, but consider it all. 
--- You have class based that gamers seem to really like
--- You have skills based that seem to also be attractive
--- You can draw a conclusion there and mix them

--- You want to avoid the clone syndrome 

--- Things like perma-death, rampant PKing, FtP, etc., are all in negative territory

--- There are many gamers who like PvE
--- There are many gamers who like PvP
--- Draw a conclusion there? Remember to consider that open market thingy.

That's just a little sample. 

Iselin

AlBQuirky said:

Iselin said:

AlBQuirky said:

Iselin said:

How can the main hero demigod who's going to save the world die? Film over... roll the credits And what's this resurrection bit all about? Go permadeath or go home... sheesh.

Death penalties in MMOs? They are just contrived punishments to make you fear death because presumably that makes not dying feel like an accomplishment. That's great if you're playing in order to accomplish not dying, I guess. But then you get up, jump through whatever death penalty hoops they've devised and eventually get back to playing where you want to play... some accomplishment that lol.

For the rest of us who play for the journey those penalties are just annoying disruptions to what we enjoy. I'd much rather get the dying bit over with as quickly as possible so I can go back and tackle the thing I was trying to do when I died - which presumably is the thing I enjoy doing in the game - immediately.

I don't need to be punished with obnoxious time sinks. I'm not a masochist. I know I failed and what motivates me is to do it all over again until I don't fail. The quicker I get back to trying to succeed the better.

 

Am I to take it that you don't want a challenge? Something hard?

If dying is "just a terrible time sink", than what makes a game hard for you? Sounds like dying is not one of them.

Then again, one players "punishment" is another "opportunity."

Not trying to say good or bad, just curious how you view "challenging."

No, I definitely want hard and the harder the better. But that's irrelevant to death punishment. I don't mind dying over and over if I'm trying to do something tough. It's the artificial wait imposed by the death penalties between the dying over and over part to the content I enjoy that I have no use for.

Interesting. It seems "fear of Death" is a component here. I get what you're saying, and to a point, I agree.

EQ had me quitting after I just hit level 38, ran through East Commonlands on my way to Freeport for some banking, and died because I beat a "Special Event" (Halloween thingie, I think) but had only a few hit points. As I sat to recover, a level 2 Orc Pawn decided I was easy prey and killed me. I lost my new level and the songs that went with it. I quit and never looked back.

The fear of death can be a boon or bane, depending on the player. Too much fear and they won't "try" anything just to see what happens. Too little and they don't care what happens. Each player has a different "point of no return."

I think the key is what Aeander alluded to: "progression in that game is so fun." If the progression is fun, I don't mind. I'm in no hurry to reach the "end of the game", aka endgame. If the progression is fun, lost time means very little. If progression is a pain the ass, lost time hurts tenfold.

You mentioned in a later post about "always playing my best." How do you do this when a new skill, ability, or spell is learned for the first time? Most games give very little "mechanical info" on these and the learning comes through trial and error. Or at least it used to

I know that a very harsh death penalty could make this learning extremely tedious and may even make players shy about experimenting. EQ's ended up pushing me away, after all.

I guess this came about because you state often how you like challenging gameplay and your comments about death penalties struck me as odd. I guess I see it as if there is zero fear of death and it is "just a bump in the road", how challenging can it be, if a player really cares not one whit about failure?

Again, not any judgement. It just struck me strangely

When I get a new skill or when I'm in a new game I don't yet know how to play well, like everyone else I learn by trying on the rats and grunts and not the orc king That would be foolish. Playing my best also means knowing what I can and can't do at any given point in time. I will push the envelope to find my limits but how often I do that totally depends on my comfort level and my familiarity with the skills and game in general.

I just see no relationship between difficulty of the content I'm playing and "time-outs" after every death. I just want to get back to the difficult content where I died and keep working on overcoming its challenges. A copse run is not the challenging content I want to be doing. You may consider those as other separate challenges and hell, you may even enjoy corpse runs lol... not judging. I don't. I want to get back to my difficult content and spend my game time doing that rather than try to mitigate the death penalty for the next 15 minutes or 2 days.

Adding annoyances does not make it more difficult. Just more annoying.