Very Interesting Article on the Death Penalty in MMORPGs

Sovrath

immodium said:

I'm not arguing against failure. Not being able to complete the content is failure and I'm ok with that.

Why punish failure? All that does is it to deter people from experimenting/using their imagination and coming up with new ways to beat the content.

There's truth to this but this is by the individual.

To the point, I'm ok with harsh death penalties. But what I consider harsh might be nothing to others and vice versa.

I find the Lord of the Rings Online debuff (or any debuff that makes it difficul to try again) more punishing than xp loss. Anything that keeps me from playing the game is not to my liking UNLESS it's something like gear loss or something like that.

To that point, I remember getting into a group in Lord of the Rings Online and we failed twice at some instance. I suggested going again and they didn't want to. I would have been fine continuing to experiment but they had had enough.

So each person is different.

But again, there is a difference in looking at it as either "punishment" or "consequences."

And that's the huge issue here. Some see it as one, some the other.

Again, Darkest Dungeon last night. I find myself with too many "infected" so had to make a run with a party of "vampires" (essentially). I totally forgot about "the fanatic" and in my first hallway I encountered him. He took one of my people with good "trinkets" so I at least wanted to see if I could get them back; possibly attempt to kill him but most likely run as I wasn't that prepared.

Lost two good that run.

And that's fine, I wasn't punished. That's the game. And those were the consequences.

Ancient_Exile

immodium said:

Ancient_Exile said:

EDIT:  Making mistakes/failing, and enduring the consequences thereof, can sometimes (or even often) help us learn faster than making the correct decisions/succeeding.

Fair enough I'm just not a fan of the arbitrary way developers have implemented mechanics when dealing with death.

When you fail an encounter or keep failing an encounter you're going to have to re-evaluate your tactics/strategy regardless of whether there's a penalty or not. If you keep doing the same thing over and over and not succeeding that's enough punishment.

I'm a fan of allowing people to get back into the encounter learn the game mechanics and adjust asap. That's the fastest way of learning IMO.

EDIT: However we do live in an age where people watch youtube videos now to learn so if they can't even repeat content to learn it you've got no chance of making the learning experience longer with death penalties.

We also live in a day and age where people can look up how to complete quests or overcome various difficult challenges by reading a plethora of websites.  Because failing once is terrible.  Failing twice is catastrophic.  Failing three times is well nigh unforgivable.  Failing again and again is just plain stupid and/or lazy.  Google it, dude or dudette. 

Anyway, if there's no death penalty, players can just choose to try over and over until they finally get it right or manage to survive/prevail somehow.  Either by gradually improving in skill or just getting lucky/getting a little more mercy from the RNGoddess.  Low risk, high chance of reward.  Zzzzzz. 

Furthermore, first they cry foul at any mention of Permadeath.  Then they weep and gnash their teeth because they think Death Penalties are totally unnecessary 'time sink'.  Later they can't understand why they a shouldn't just be able to buy something from the Cash Shop to make them invincible.  What's the point of having to respawn and walk/ride/teleport back to the Dungeon?  Total waste of time.  (Well, in a lot of games, players can buy items from the Cash Shop that will let them resurrect on demand.  No Cleric/Priest/First-Aid Kit required.  Though sometimes they can get those items for free during certain times of the year or special events or w/e.)

AlBQuirky

It seems that some players feel failure is a punishment. And that's cool.

Other players feel failure is just failure. And that's cool.

In the MMO games of today, I don't feel one iota of "punishment" in a game where I am max level in 2 weeks tops. World of Warcraft's "death penalty" I have used as a means of fast travel, it's so piddly.

I just don't feel "punished" by failure, but understand how some players can. Is that more of  true "fear of failure" than I have?

Amaranthar

I don't have time to read everyone's comments. So I'm just going to say that I want a small death penalty that's easily overcome at lower skills but harder at top end of skills. 
(Because of slower advancement at high end.) 

My reasoning is this. 
If a house of cards never falls, then building one has no meaning. 

And I am tired of meaningless advancement. The never ending march until they actually call it "end game." 

Amaranthar

AlBQuirky said:

It seems that some players feel failure is a punishment. And that's cool.

Other players feel failure is just failure. And that's cool.

In the MMO games of today, I don't feel one iota of "punishment" in a game where I am max level in 2 weeks tops. World of Warcraft's "death penalty" I have used as a means of fast travel, it's so piddly.

I just don't feel "punished" by failure, but understand how some players can. Is that more of  true "fear of failure" than I have?

It goes back to that "blue ribbon" thing. 
It's not fear of "punishment", it's expectations of success as "a given." 
And I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being fine. I see it as an issue. 

The real world awaits to slap some sense into those people. 
And then they (most of them) are going to start blaming everybody/thing but themselves. 
(Apologies, but that's the truth.) 

these games are not doing anyone any favors by giving them all that they want. In fact, doing the opposite. 

Sovrath

Amaranthar said:

AlBQuirky said:

It seems that some players feel failure is a punishment. And that's cool.

Other players feel failure is just failure. And that's cool.

In the MMO games of today, I don't feel one iota of "punishment" in a game where I am max level in 2 weeks tops. World of Warcraft's "death penalty" I have used as a means of fast travel, it's so piddly.

I just don't feel "punished" by failure, but understand how some players can. Is that more of  true "fear of failure" than I have?

It goes back to that "blue ribbon" thing. 
It's not fear of "punishment", it's expectations of success as "a given." 
And I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being fine. I see it as an issue. 

The real world awaits to slap some sense into those people. 
And then they (most of them) are going to start blaming everybody/thing but themselves. 
(Apologies, but that's the truth.) 

these games are not doing anyone any favors by giving them all that they want. In fact, doing the opposite. 

To that point, and something that this discussion makes me wonder about, is it a generational thing?

Are the people who think that such things like "death penalties = punishment" much younger, in their twenties players?

And the players who don't think that are 40 +? Just a thought. Might not be correct.

Amaranthar

Sovrath said:

Amaranthar said:

AlBQuirky said:

It seems that some players feel failure is a punishment. And that's cool.

Other players feel failure is just failure. And that's cool.

In the MMO games of today, I don't feel one iota of "punishment" in a game where I am max level in 2 weeks tops. World of Warcraft's "death penalty" I have used as a means of fast travel, it's so piddly.

I just don't feel "punished" by failure, but understand how some players can. Is that more of  true "fear of failure" than I have?

It goes back to that "blue ribbon" thing. 
It's not fear of "punishment", it's expectations of success as "a given." 
And I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being fine. I see it as an issue. 

The real world awaits to slap some sense into those people. 
And then they (most of them) are going to start blaming everybody/thing but themselves. 
(Apologies, but that's the truth.) 

these games are not doing anyone any favors by giving them all that they want. In fact, doing the opposite. 

To that point, and something that this discussion makes me wonder about, is it a generational thing?

Are the people who think that such things like "death penalties = punishment" much younger, in their twenties players?

And the players who don't think that are 40 +? Just a thought. Might not be correct.

That's an excellent point. 
I grew up with parents that went through the Spanish Flu, the Great Depression and WWII. 
(My dad was an orphan because of the Flu, and when he was 18 he enlisted to fight the Nazis because of our heritage, Dutch. That's a rough way to start life, and I never once heard him not make a joke out of a tough situation.) 

I grew up in the "Boomer" generation, along with the drugs and Woodstock and the peace movements and demands for a perfect world, and all of that. 
That's where it started, not with the current youth. 

But it appears to me that those tough years of the first half of the 20th Century "made men men, and women women." 
And the very good years after WWII brought a spoiled life and high expectations. 

It's only because some of us still remember lessons handed down from "The Greatest Generation" that we even recognize this issue. Most of us didn't really appreciate those lessons until we got older, and wiser to the real world. 

Shaigh

Back in the days I cared a lot about character progression, nowadays I care more about content progression. EXP and gear penalty makes sense when it comes to character progression, it goes completely against what people looking for content progression wish to play.

Its not about which generation you grew up with, its whether you changed your preferences over time or not.

ChildoftheShadows

To me this also ties into the other thread about immersion. We're talking about "Death" here and since actual death isn't the sort of thing many people want in their long term progression MMORPG there are other, better means to create a death-like experience. Over time some people saw it as an inconvenience or annoyance so they complained and hence the change to having zero penalty, but alas for many we still strive to have that level of immersion where death means something and isn't just a slight inconvenience for making poor decisions, but is actually part of the game, part of the experience.

It's not for everyone, but for those of us that do love the experience a death penalty provides; playing games that don't have it, well to be blunt the experience is more shallow, boring, lifeless. 

Imagine fighting something and both your health bars are at a sliver.  You know if you mess up and die you are going to have debuffs, lost items, lost experience, or some kind of death penalty. You make the right choices and you come out the victor. The level of excitement you get from that is incomparable to not having anything on the line.

Just my 2c.

Sovrath

ChildoftheShadows said:

To me this also ties into the other thread about immersion. We're talking about "Death" here and since actual death isn't the sort of thing many people want in their long term progression MMORPG there are other, better means to create a death-like experience. Over time some people saw it as an inconvenience or annoyance so they complained and hence the change to having zero penalty, but alas for many we still strive to have that level of immersion where death means something and isn't just a slight inconvenience for making poor decisions, but is actually part of the game, part of the experience.

It's not for everyone, but for those of us that do love the experience a death penalty provides; playing games that don't have it, well to be blunt the experience is more shallow, boring, lifeless. 

Imagine fighting something and both your health bars are at a sliver.  You know if you mess up and die you are going to have debuffs, lost items, lost experience, or some kind of death penalty. You make the right choices and you come out the victor. The level of excitement you get from that is incomparable to not having anything on the line.

Just my 2c.

I completley agree with you in the above example but that goes back again to how different people experience death penalties differently.

Some people would just quit if they lost items. Some people would quit if it was constant running back to "do it again."

An example is dark souls. And for me specifically that giant wolf with a sword in his mouth after dying countless times  (on pc so with sketchy controls) and then having to run alllll the way back to where he was each time I eventually just put the game down.

Recently picked it up again as I'm a bit better with controller now.

But if it was just stat loss or and of course losing souls, then I could deal with that. I have issues with things I consider tedious.

Yet, other people don't really respond to lost items or xp and are good with "you failed." Failure is its own admonisment.

That's why I think developers should be more focused with the games they make and NOT make them for everyone. Make the game they want, make it good and the people will come.

ChildoftheShadows

Sovrath said:

ChildoftheShadows said:

To me this also ties into the other thread about immersion. We're talking about "Death" here and since actual death isn't the sort of thing many people want in their long term progression MMORPG there are other, better means to create a death-like experience. Over time some people saw it as an inconvenience or annoyance so they complained and hence the change to having zero penalty, but alas for many we still strive to have that level of immersion where death means something and isn't just a slight inconvenience for making poor decisions, but is actually part of the game, part of the experience.

It's not for everyone, but for those of us that do love the experience a death penalty provides; playing games that don't have it, well to be blunt the experience is more shallow, boring, lifeless. 

Imagine fighting something and both your health bars are at a sliver.  You know if you mess up and die you are going to have debuffs, lost items, lost experience, or some kind of death penalty. You make the right choices and you come out the victor. The level of excitement you get from that is incomparable to not having anything on the line.

Just my 2c

...

That's why I think developers should be more focused with the games they make and NOT make them for everyone. Make the game they want, make it good and the people will come.

I've been saying this for so long it hurts. This is the reason I haven't had a good new game to play in over a decade. Everyone trying to solve everything and making nothing but clones of the same trash.

ChildoftheShadows

Sovrath said:

Some people would just quit if they lost items. Some people would quit if it was constant running back to "do it again."

An example is dark souls. And for me specifically that giant wolf with a sword in his mouth after dying countless times  (on pc so with sketchy controls) and then having to run alllll the way back to where he was each time I eventually just put the game down. 

I've found that this is the main reason I have a hard time trying to get back into Eve these days. It's not the loss or hard work, it's the insane number of hours spent traveling just to get anywhere. Also playing Darkfall with friends and being an hour away from home when one of use dies we didn't care about losing our gear but the night was often over if we didn't have a runestone to get the other guy back to us, unless we wanted to all port back home and start over again.

AlBQuirky

ChildoftheShadows said:

Imagine fighting something and both your health bars are at a sliver.  You know if you mess up and die you are going to have debuffs, lost items, lost experience, or some kind of death penalty. You make the right choices and you come out the victor. The level of excitement you get from that is incomparable to not having anything on the line.

Just my 2c.

This hasn't happened to me in an MMO for years:

**Go to about 50 seconds in.**

(couldn't get the player to start there...)

Retlon Brenclog and my 1/2Elf Bard, Merrigrin experience: Synchro Deaths in EQ!

I had my healing song going, so that's why I kept popping back up

AlBQuirky

Sovrath said:

Amaranthar said:

AlBQuirky said:

It seems that some players feel failure is a punishment. And that's cool.

Other players feel failure is just failure. And that's cool.

In the MMO games of today, I don't feel one iota of "punishment" in a game where I am max level in 2 weeks tops. World of Warcraft's "death penalty" I have used as a means of fast travel, it's so piddly.

I just don't feel "punished" by failure, but understand how some players can. Is that more of  true "fear of failure" than I have?

It goes back to that "blue ribbon" thing. 
It's not fear of "punishment", it's expectations of success as "a given." 
And I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being fine. I see it as an issue. 

The real world awaits to slap some sense into those people. 
And then they (most of them) are going to start blaming everybody/thing but themselves. 
(Apologies, but that's the truth.) 

these games are not doing anyone any favors by giving them all that they want. In fact, doing the opposite. 

To that point, and something that this discussion makes me wonder about, is it a generational thing?

Are the people who think that such things like "death penalties = punishment" much younger, in their twenties players?

And the players who don't think that are 40 +? Just a thought. Might not be correct.

Well, I'm 57 and Iselin I think said he was 70 or so. We are on opposite sides here

But Iselin is Canadian and I'm American! :LOL:

Kyleran

immodium said:

Kyleran said:

Finally,  of course it makes sense to punish you for failure, another poster shared with you the multitude of evidence proving how failure drives us to succeed.

Imagine someone takes an entrance exam and fails it. The failure of not being accepted isn't enough, they should be punished on top of that?

I'm all for failure. I don't want everything to be easy.

Kyleran said:

Well, one other correlation between your platform game and MMORPGs, once your emulator removed the only real death penalty you had, starting over, you finished up and put the game aside in a very short time,  much like many gamers do with easy mode MMORPGs today.

They were already easy, they just got rid of the time sinks. (Long travel times, slow xp gain, corpse running etc).

That's the problem with real life analogies, difficult  to correlate to a gaming situation.

In this example failing an entrance exam is akin to permadeath in a video game....the ultimate death penalty. 

If you study law for 8 years but never pass the bar, quite likely that failure will punish you financially and emotionally for the rest of your life. 

As for difficulty, of course the mechanics themselves were almost always easy, reducing, minimizing, eliminating the travel times, slow exp grind, corpse running and avoidance of failure was the a big part of the challenge and game play to overcome. 

Ancient_Exile

Kyleran said:

immodium said:

Kyleran said:

Finally,  of course it makes sense to punish you for failure, another poster shared with you the multitude of evidence proving how failure drives us to succeed.

Imagine someone takes an entrance exam and fails it. The failure of not being accepted isn't enough, they should be punished on top of that?

I'm all for failure. I don't want everything to be easy.

Kyleran said:

Well, one other correlation between your platform game and MMORPGs, once your emulator removed the only real death penalty you had, starting over, you finished up and put the game aside in a very short time,  much like many gamers do with easy mode MMORPGs today.

They were already easy, they just got rid of the time sinks. (Long travel times, slow xp gain, corpse running etc).

That's the problem with real life analogies, difficult  to correlate to a gaming situation.

In this example failing an entrance exam is akin to permadeath in a video game....the ultimate death penalty. 

If you study law for 8 years but never pass the bar, quite likely that failure will punish you financially and emotionally for the rest of your life. 

As for difficulty, of course the mechanics themselves were almost always easy, reducing, minimizing, eliminating the travel times, slow exp grind, corpse running and avoidance of failure was the a big part of the challenge and game play to overcome. 

It seemed like the first couple MMORPGs I played had steep learning curves.  Learning and mastering all the myriad features, systems, and mechanics is part of the challenge.  And each new game has is its own set of challenges in learning and mastering its own unique systems.  Though this can be easier if the systems are somewhat similar to games I've played before.  Anyway, I don't think the vast majority of people could say that certain MMORPGs were easy when they first started playing them. 

AAAMEOW

Ancient_Exile said:

AAAMEOW said:

Ancient_Exile said:

AAAMEOW said:

KnightFalz said:

Ancient_Exile said:

tzervo said:

KnightFalz said:

tzervo said:

It is not about the encounter's difficulty, it is about making interesting decisions with their corresponding consequences and/or rewards.

If the loss mechanics are not paired with interesting decisions, then they are a mere annoyance and the design is bad.

Decisions relating to how to, or even whether to, regain what I already had don't sound all that interesting to me. For me it is simply an annoyance that wastes time that could otherwise be spent productively.

This is a rationalization.

A quote from a blog that put it succinctly in words with an example:

So the player has a choice to grind X hours to get emblems or to get lucky with a low chance drop to get the upgrade. Or, he can engage in a risky mission that can give him the same upgrade in a single hour if he succeeds but Y hours of grind to get back where he is if he loses.

The time cost of the grinding choice is obviously X hours. For the risky choice, the time cost is: 1+(1-C)*(X+Y) where C is the chance of success. The “1” part is the one hour for the risky mission. The (X+Y) part comes from the assumption that after he failed, he just gives up and grinds. It’s easier to calculate with this than with repeated attempts and the result is the same. The player wants to minimize time to reward, so chooses the shorter one. The risky is shorter if X > 1+(1-C)*(X+Y) which can be solved into C > (1+Y)/(X+Y). Assuming the death penalty is 10 hours and you need to grind 100 hours, you should take the risk if your chance is bigger than 11/110 = 10%.
It’s a straightforward formula. Where is the “interesting decision”? It comes from the fact that your chance cannot be measured, it can only be approximated and it lies on the elusive self-consciousness. The question comes down to “how good I am/the team is in this game”? This is always an interesting thing to think about.

https://greedygoblinblog.wordpress.com/2018/01/09/the-interesting-decision-around-death-penalty/

As far as I am concerned, the rest of the blog post also makes some interesting points, even though they sting.

In accordance with my vow, I have read the article which you graciously chose to share with the rest of the class.  I found it to be interesting, intriguing, enlightening, and entertaining all wrapped up and rolled into one.

"...Why did the death penalty diminished, along with the whole MMO scene? Because it’s hard to deny that the MMOs are in horrible shape. The most successful one, WoW is stagnating/losing players for years and there are no serious contenders with even 1/10 of its playerbase.

This is because they made the wrong choice of including entitled punks. Not casuals, not even socials. Casuals, like a middle aged mum who plays while the kids are asleep is aware of her limited skills. She is fine with the grinding. Actually, she likes the easy and interruptible entertainment of being in a magical world. The social is fine being around, being involved with the group instead of being at the tip of the spear. This is crucial: death penalty isn’t a problem to low-skill players as long as they are self-aware and have a grindy alternative path of progression...

...Please realize the catch: by removing death penalty, neither the skilled, nor the casual/social players got help. The entitled punks did, the group that you really don’t want in any group game. By removing death penalty, the devs invited the most toxic people: those who look down on fellow players based on oversized ego and blame and curse them for their own frequent failures..."

I think it's simpler than that. The less harsh death penalties became the less people complained about them, so they kept easing them more over time as new game came to the market to the point they are largely trivial in most MMORPGs.

Death penalties are a problem for "low-skill" players as they are inhibit what that player is inclined to do. Without they can attempt more and accordingly learn more, leading to an experience less laced with drudgery.

It's funny thinking about it.  I was playing legend of aria and when you die you loss all your gear and inventory.  But since gear is easily replaceable, you don't really loss much of anything.  

Basically what I am saying is usually what I loss isn't much different from a long corpse run in a generic themepark game.  

People have low tolerance level.  People can tolerate 30 minutes of progress loss.  But if people are lossing tens/hundreds of hours of progress, they are very likely to quit.    

I beg to differ.  Some people have a higher tolerance for pain than others.  Others have a higher tolerance for tedium/repetition than others.  For example, it seems that a certain percentage of players are more willing to put up with grinding or say they actually enjoy grinding (huh?).  As opposed to those of us who are less willing to put up with grinding and are reasonably annoyed when that is one of the few options available to us.  Especially when it is the only option.  (Just because the game developers can't figure out anything else for us to do at End Game.  Or because it's just easier to make us grind than to come up with other ways for high/max level player characters to spend their time.)

Btw, I still haven't downloaded Legend of Aria.  I actually forgot it about for the last couple days or so.

It is kind of why I never really believe your philosophy of making games more interesting would do anything.  Most of the popular games are just a bunch of grind and repetition.  

I think very few people have high tolerance level.  I dont' play Eve but I presume it have harsh death penalty because you don't die all that much.  I think at most 1 hour of wasted time is enough for a death penalty.  

How many options do players have if they want to play a newer/more modern AAA MMORPG with decent/better graphics? 

There are like 300 mmorpg out there.  Other game genre have far more players and far less games.  

If you believe in your idea so much, would you invest all your fortune to make such game?  I guess many people says no.

Kyleran

AAAMEOW said:

Ancient_Exile said:

AAAMEOW said:

Ancient_Exile said:

AAAMEOW said:

KnightFalz said:

Ancient_Exile said:

tzervo said:

KnightFalz said:

 

Btw, I still haven't downloaded Legend of Aria.  I actually forgot it about for the last couple days or so.

It is kind of why I never really believe your philosophy of making games more interesting would do anything.  Most of the popular games are just a bunch of grind and repetition.  

I think very few people have high tolerance level.  I dont' play Eve but I presume it have harsh death penalty because you don't die all that much.  I think at most 1 hour of wasted time is enough for a death penalty.  

How many options do players have if they want to play a newer/more modern AAA MMORPG with decent/better graphics? 

There are like 300 mmorpg out there.  Other game genre have far more players and far less games.  

If you believe in your idea so much, would you invest all your fortune to make such game?  I guess many people says no.

300 MMORPGS, most of them crap.

Bruce said it best

57 channels, and nothing on.

Sovrath

AlBQuirky said:

Sovrath said:

Amaranthar said:

AlBQuirky said:

It seems that some players feel failure is a punishment. And that's cool.

Other players feel failure is just failure. And that's cool.

In the MMO games of today, I don't feel one iota of "punishment" in a game where I am max level in 2 weeks tops. World of Warcraft's "death penalty" I have used as a means of fast travel, it's so piddly.

I just don't feel "punished" by failure, but understand how some players can. Is that more of  true "fear of failure" than I have?

It goes back to that "blue ribbon" thing. 
It's not fear of "punishment", it's expectations of success as "a given." 
And I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being fine. I see it as an issue. 

The real world awaits to slap some sense into those people. 
And then they (most of them) are going to start blaming everybody/thing but themselves. 
(Apologies, but that's the truth.) 

these games are not doing anyone any favors by giving them all that they want. In fact, doing the opposite. 

To that point, and something that this discussion makes me wonder about, is it a generational thing?

Are the people who think that such things like "death penalties = punishment" much younger, in their twenties players?

And the players who don't think that are 40 +? Just a thought. Might not be correct.

Well, I'm 57 and Iselin I think said he was 70 or so. We are on opposite sides here

But Iselin is Canadian and I'm American! :LOL:

I think Kylran is 70 "ish" and Iselin is in his 20's? I don't remember. but I'm 53 and I'm starting to forget things.

KnightFalz

Sovrath said:

Are the people who think that such things like "death penalties = punishment" much younger, in their twenties players?

Penalty by definition is punishment. It is not a thought based issue.

A difference in age may factor into how a punishment is viewed, but that is far from certain. I haven't seen my twenties for quite some time and personally don't see value in penalties beyond the time wasted due to failure.

KnightFalz

Amaranthar said:

AlBQuirky said:

It seems that some players feel failure is a punishment. And that's cool.

Other players feel failure is just failure. And that's cool.

In the MMO games of today, I don't feel one iota of "punishment" in a game where I am max level in 2 weeks tops. World of Warcraft's "death penalty" I have used as a means of fast travel, it's so piddly.

I just don't feel "punished" by failure, but understand how some players can. Is that more of  true "fear of failure" than I have?

It goes back to that "blue ribbon" thing. 
It's not fear of "punishment", it's expectations of success as "a given." 
And I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being fine. I see it as an issue. 

The real world awaits to slap some sense into those people. 
And then they (most of them) are going to start blaming everybody/thing but themselves. 
(Apologies, but that's the truth.) 

these games are not doing anyone any favors by giving them all that they want. In fact, doing the opposite. 

The real world is adept in the application of punishment, to the point where many feel a need to take a break from it to refresh to better sustain the next incoming wave.

I can see how games with little in the way or repercussion can be favourable to some.

ChildoftheShadows

AAAMEOW said: 

There are like 300 mmorpg out there.  Other game genre have far more players and far less games.  

How do you expect anyone to take you seriously after this horribly fake statistic?

Amaranthar

KnightFalz said:

Amaranthar said:

AlBQuirky said:

It seems that some players feel failure is a punishment. And that's cool.

Other players feel failure is just failure. And that's cool.

In the MMO games of today, I don't feel one iota of "punishment" in a game where I am max level in 2 weeks tops. World of Warcraft's "death penalty" I have used as a means of fast travel, it's so piddly.

I just don't feel "punished" by failure, but understand how some players can. Is that more of  true "fear of failure" than I have?

It goes back to that "blue ribbon" thing. 
It's not fear of "punishment", it's expectations of success as "a given." 
And I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being fine. I see it as an issue. 

The real world awaits to slap some sense into those people. 
And then they (most of them) are going to start blaming everybody/thing but themselves. 
(Apologies, but that's the truth.) 

these games are not doing anyone any favors by giving them all that they want. In fact, doing the opposite. 

The real world is adept in the application of punishment, to the point where many feel a need to take a break from it to refresh to better sustain the next incoming wave.

I can see how games with little in the way or repercussion can be favourable to some.

If you expect to just be handed success 
(as in guaranteed gains without loss in games) 
then you have been victimized by this thinking. 

I know it sounds harsh to some people, but to them I say, what kind of person are you? Where's your pride? 

It's sad that many gamers look at their MMORPGs as a form of instant gratification rather than an experience with some depth. 

Still, I have to respect their rights, if not their choice. 

Iselin

Sovrath said:

AlBQuirky said:

Sovrath said:

Amaranthar said:

AlBQuirky said:

It seems that some players feel failure is a punishment. And that's cool.

Other players feel failure is just failure. And that's cool.

In the MMO games of today, I don't feel one iota of "punishment" in a game where I am max level in 2 weeks tops. World of Warcraft's "death penalty" I have used as a means of fast travel, it's so piddly.

I just don't feel "punished" by failure, but understand how some players can. Is that more of  true "fear of failure" than I have?

It goes back to that "blue ribbon" thing. 
It's not fear of "punishment", it's expectations of success as "a given." 
And I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being fine. I see it as an issue. 

The real world awaits to slap some sense into those people. 
And then they (most of them) are going to start blaming everybody/thing but themselves. 
(Apologies, but that's the truth.) 

these games are not doing anyone any favors by giving them all that they want. In fact, doing the opposite. 

To that point, and something that this discussion makes me wonder about, is it a generational thing?

Are the people who think that such things like "death penalties = punishment" much younger, in their twenties players?

And the players who don't think that are 40 +? Just a thought. Might not be correct.

Well, I'm 57 and Iselin I think said he was 70 or so. We are on opposite sides here

But Iselin is Canadian and I'm American! :LOL:

I think Kylran is 70 "ish" and Iselin is in his 20's? I don't remember. but I'm 53 and I'm starting to forget things.

Wrong assumption and details yet again

Sovrath

KnightFalz said:

Sovrath said:

Are the people who think that such things like "death penalties = punishment" much younger, in their twenties players?

Penalty by definition is punishment. It is not a thought based issue.

A difference in age may factor into how a punishment is viewed, but that is far from certain. I haven't seen my twenties for quite some time and personally don't see value in penalties beyond the time wasted due to failure.

Well, that's why I asked the question. "Could" it be generational? I don't know but it's worth exploring.