Originally posted by Wepps Um no Master_Shake, this is TOTALLY ILLEGAL lol! They cannot force a customer to accept terms which remove their basic rights as Americans, after the fact of collecting their fee for the account term! It's FRAUD! LOL but like I said, it never ceases to amaze me how dumb the players of these games can be.
go to any non ambulance chasing lawyer and ask him if this is illegal. don't forget to provide all of the facts. not just the ones you think are relevant, and i guarantee he'll think that you have a flock of bird nesting where your brain should be. this was not snuck up on you or anyone else.. it was in the EULA since the games release. before anyone paid for an account they accepted it. I know you would like to think that you know everything. and i'm very sorry, because i don't usually like telling people that single celled organisms are more intelligent than they are. but you man. you just take the cake for stupidity.
So what you are saying is that you made it up, and you are actually misinforming the people of this forum.
That you have no actual information to give, but are just simply defending Blizzard randomly, just as they are scanning your system hehe.
I think your own statements clearly show where the real ignorance resides.
if your talking to yourself, and replace defending with bashing. then you got a winner there.
Originally posted by milhoan6 I would also like to know how you know INDEFINITLEY that all Blizzard receives is a yes they have cheating programs or no they don't have cheating programs.
i nor does anyone else need any smoking gun in this case. it's the same system that every MMO game uses. it's common knowlege. if you don't have this common knowlege you are what i said you are before.. ignorant
Originally posted by milhoan6 I would also like to know how you know INDEFINITLEY that all Blizzard receives is a yes they have cheating programs or no they don't have cheating programs.
i nor does anyone else need any smoking gun in this case. it's the same system that every MMO game uses. it's common knowlege. if you don't have this common knowlege you are what i said you are before.. ignorant
No reason to insult me because you have no credible proof that this is exactly what they are doing.
i nor does anyone else need any smoking gun in this case. it's the same system that every MMO game uses. it's common knowlege. if you don't have this common knowlege you are what i said you are before.. ignorant
Easy, chief. No one is attacking your family or beloved game. It is interesting this topic, but I wouldn't be too alarmed or anything. But no need to keep calling people stupid and stuff hehe. My gf plays still and I am not scared they are selling our info off or anything, but good companys DO do bad things. Things like this do need to be discussed to keep them on an even keel and keep them honest.
I would like to hear an official word or see a decent link about the truth of this subject. I sure don't want anyone scanning my hard drive too much, but I do want them to check for cheaters.
I'll put money on your own government scanning and collecting the entire contents of your computer atleast once by now.. perfectly legal.
If that were true my ass would be in jail by now. But my gov doesnt have the resources to wipe its own butt properly so I dont expect that they'd put the time and money into dipping into everyones harddrive.
But all the flaming aside (as charming as it may be), why would they scan cookies and wallpapers? I imagine every game does a standard memory scan to see if cheats are running in the background, but why the harddrive? It just seems rather questionable that they would scan unrelated items (not hack related) and then just ignore them. You can assume that they arnt getting that information, but it seems iffy becasue they scanned it in the first place.
THEY WILL ONLY RECEIVE A NOTIFICATION THAT A CHEATING PROGRAM THAT HAS BEEN FLAGGED FOR DETECTION IS LOCATED ON YOUR MACHINE, OR IS BEING USED.
I'm sorry for being uninformed, or maybe just dense.
But where do you see this in the EULA?
Or do you have a link from a representative from Blizzard that stated as much, that I have no access to?
Otherwise, the word of a player carries no weight whatsoever in these matters.
Found actually in terms of service which also must be accepted...
D. In order to assist Blizzard Entertainment to police users who may use "hacks," or "cheats" to gain an advantage over other players, you acknowledge that Blizzard Entertainment shall have the right to obtain certain information from your computer and its component parts, including your computer's random access memory, video card, central processing unit, and storage devices. This information will only be used for the purpose of identifying "cheaters," and for no other reason.
Terms of service has remained unchanged to my knowlage
" They cannot force a customer to accept terms which remove their basic rights as Americans "
Contracts submiting to search and seizure without probable cause are allowed under U.S. law. A good example would be Workplace Drugtests.
Blizzard is not forcing anyone to play their game. You choose everyday too play it or not too. Other games do this as well. There is no fraud here from what i can see unless you wish to set precident and sue them (as well as other companies), but this will be a hard and expensive battle for you with no legal footing.
THEY WILL ONLY RECEIVE A NOTIFICATION THAT A CHEATING PROGRAM THAT HAS BEEN FLAGGED FOR DETECTION IS LOCATED ON YOUR MACHINE, OR IS BEING USED.
I'm sorry for being uninformed, or maybe just dense.
But where do you see this in the EULA?
Or do you have a link from a representative from Blizzard that stated as much, that I have no access to?
Otherwise, the word of a player carries no weight whatsoever in these matters.
Found actually in terms of service which also must be accepted...
D. In order to assist Blizzard Entertainment to police users who may use "hacks," or "cheats" to gain an advantage over other players, you acknowledge that Blizzard Entertainment shall have the right to obtain certain information from your computer and its component parts, including your computer's random access memory, video card, central processing unit, and storage devices. This information will only be used for the purpose of identifying "cheaters," and for no other reason.
Terms of service has remained unchanged to my knowlage
" They cannot force a customer to accept terms which remove their basic rights as Americans "
Contracts submiting to search and seizure without probable cause are allowed under U.S. law. A good example would be Workplace Drugtests.
Blizzard is not forcing anyone to play their game. You choose everyday too play it or not too. Other games do this as well. There is no fraud here from what i can see unless you wish to set precident and sue them (as well as other companies), but this will be a hard and expensive battle for you with no legal footing.
Thanks for providing links to everything...the reason I questioned the other guy who said that is because he would give no credible proof to his claims.
THEY WILL ONLY RECEIVE A NOTIFICATION THAT A CHEATING PROGRAM THAT HAS BEEN FLAGGED FOR DETECTION IS LOCATED ON YOUR MACHINE, OR IS BEING USED.
I'm sorry for being uninformed, or maybe just dense.
But where do you see this in the EULA?
Or do you have a link from a representative from Blizzard that stated as much, that I have no access to?
Otherwise, the word of a player carries no weight whatsoever in these matters.
Found actually in terms of service which also must be accepted...
D. In order to assist Blizzard Entertainment to police users who may use "hacks," or "cheats" to gain an advantage over other players, you acknowledge that Blizzard Entertainment shall have the right to obtain certain information from your computer and its component parts, including your computer's random access memory, video card, central processing unit, and storage devices. This information will only be used for the purpose of identifying "cheaters," and for no other reason.
Terms of service has remained unchanged to my knowlage
" They cannot force a customer to accept terms which remove their basic rights as Americans "
Contracts submiting to search and seizure without probable cause are allowed under U.S. law. A good example would be Workplace Drugtests.
Blizzard is not forcing anyone to play their game. You choose everyday too play it or not too. Other games do this as well. There is no fraud here from what i can see unless you wish to set precident and sue them (as well as other companies), but this will be a hard and expensive battle for you with no legal footing.
Thanks for providing links to everything...the reason I questioned the other guy who said that is because he would give no credible proof to his claims.
first off.. i'm sorry if i sounded a bit harsh towards you milhoan. I know you wanted proof in text, but i admit that i couldnt give it to you because it wasnt written yet. all i could tell you was from my own experience with the same kind of system. you could take my word for it.. or you could have believed wepps that heard it from a guy that heard it from a guy that heard it from a guy. again i apologise for anything that i said that could have been interpeted as me flaming you. it wasn't my intent. i was only trying to explain, where others where posting rumors.
What I don't understand is why you are taking this so personally.
I'm going to sleep just fine tonight. Very shortly I will be dreaming of PWNING the next guy in a balanced MMO where my skills and tactics and not the buttons or the hacks determine a victory.
Ahhhh the dream.
I think what you don't get, is that I just don't care what happens LOL!
I'm just - curious. Ya know?
Besides, what happens here determines the future of online gaming. It may be less important than those demanding their rights say, it is probably more important than what the fanbois claim.
But this is always the case.
What really matters is what is going to take place in the next month. Will it blow up in a court of law? Will Blizzard be delivered the smackdown? Will they be vindicated?
Is it curtains for our heros?
Who can say.
edit - my money is on the United States, and the rights given her citizens. I see this as a violation of those rights, and in many cases an act of fraud.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Originally posted by Wepps What I don't understand is why you are taking this so personally. I'm going to sleep just fine tonight. Very shortly I will be dreaming of PWNING the next guy in a balanced MMO where my skills and tactics and not the buttons or the hacks determine a victory. Ahhhh the dream. I think what you don't get, is that I just don't care what happens LOL! I'm just - curious. Ya know? Besides, what happens here determines the future of online gaming. It may be less important than those demanding their rights say, it is probably more important than what the fanbois claim. But this is always the case. What really matters is what is going to take place in the next month. Will it blow up in a court of law? Will Blizzard be delivered the smackdown? Will they be vindicated? Is it curtains for our heros? Who can say. edit - my money is on the United States, and the rights given her citizens. I see this as a violation of those rights, and in many cases an act of fraud.
well i guess we can agree to disagree. while you believe that your rights that are meant to protect you from your government also apply to make void any terms you accept or contract you sign with a private company or person.
i believe that once you agree to terms, or sign a contract to use a private company or person's product you sign away the rights that do not even apply in that situation.
the thing about the blizzard starcraft lawsuit was that they didnt inform their customers that they were collecting your name and email address while playing the game. in this case they clearly have. there is no sneakiness or illegal activity when they clearly print in a terms of service of what they can do.. and you accept it. blizzard reps put it best. read the terms of service before you accept. if you don't agree with it then don't accept it and move on. it's the farthest thing from illegal and if anyone actually tries to take this to court the only thing they will get out of it is a legal fees bill from blizzard after the plaintiff loses.
Thanks again for the links. I now have no problem with Blizzard scanning my HD as long as the program just tells them if I am using cheats or not. I'll probably be back to WoW very soon.
This is similar to what they did in one of the Warcraft III patches. THey redid the Eula the next patch after that I think. Maybe this will happen in the next Wow patch too who knows. I think it's only searching your ram to see if you are running any hacks or so. But I don't think it's sending the information it finds, they will probably enable sending later. I think it's ok that they do this, the more they do against cheaters the better.
Compared to the inteligent agencies this is nothing to our privacy. Cia and Usa monitor mails/phonecalls that are sent/taken and look for certain word combinations that can prove that you are a terrorist. This is frightening I think.
Originally posted by Master_Shake i nor does anyone else need any smoking gun in this case. it's the same system that every MMO game uses. it's common knowlege. if you don't have this common knowlege you are what i said you are before.. ignorant
To play devil's advocate here: no...not every mmorpg does this.
Lineage 2 back in October of last year was one of the first to install a third party software to scan your drives for information and against cheats, keyloggers, etc
There are a few others that utlizes this feature as well...but not every mmorpg follows this principle. However, I am not saying its bad practice. Im just stating that not every mmorpg follows this procedure
And guys, its ok to debate but dont take it so personally.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Originally posted by En1Gma Originally posted by Master_Shake i nor does anyone else need any smoking gun in this case. it's the same system that every MMO game uses. it's common knowlege. if you don't have this common knowlege you are what i said you are before.. ignorant
To play devil's advocate here: no...not every mmorpg does this.
Lineage 2 back in October of last year was one of the first to install a third party software to scan your drives for information and against cheats, keyloggers, etc
There are a few others that utlizes this feature as well...but not every mmorpg follows this principle. However, I am not saying its bad practice. Im just stating that not every mmorpg follows this procedure
And guys, its ok to debate but dont take it so personally.
thx for posting this.....hmm i wonder if SWG does this....
i have no problem with them scanning certain files.....maybe like all of the program files and other non-personal info
but when they scan system files (wallpapers, cookies) i think there may be a small problem...
also u do agree to the ToC and EULA so they have the right to
pretty good debatable issue here
EDIT!!:
wow just found this in SOEs SWG EULA....
We cannot ensure that your private communications and other personally identifiable information will not be disclosed to third parties. For example, we may be forced to disclose information to the government or third parties under certain circumstances, or third parties may unlawfully intercept or access transmissions or private communications. Additionally, we can (and you authorize us to) disclose any information about you to private entities, law enforcement or other government officials as we, in our sole discretion, believe necessary or appropriate to investigate or resolve possible problems or inquiries.
so in other words they can sell ur private info if they think its ok...???
Id assume by law they have to respond whether or not they scan your hardware. You should give them an email and tell us what they say. Im curious as well.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
This is absolutely nothing new. One of the most popular internet chess sites has been scanning peoples computers for years. Theres a few mmo's out there that have been doing it for quite awhile too, although i cant remember the names because when i see something like that i just delete the game.
Originally posted by Wepps I have very little information as it seems that Blizzard is keeping it very quiet. No idea when it came out, but i do know that they are scanning for third party hacks.The problem is the terms themselves in the agreement. The player is forced to agree now that your processor, your ram, and any drive on your system is subject to a random scan.My God. Do I have to pass through an airport metal detector now to play a game? Take my shoes off?I just don't get this but Im convinced that the FBI will be involved in this one. No company has the right to force people to deny their own rights in order to experience their product. Whoever thinks Blizzard can just randomly change the constitution to suit them has got to be a complete moron lol.
Um the FBI, CIA and NSA do this randomly as well. If you give up the rights by accepting the EULA then they sure can do it.
Originally posted by ArtifacT Originally posted by En1Gma Originally posted by Master_Shake i nor does anyone else need any smoking gun in this case. it's the same system that every MMO game uses. it's common knowlege. if you don't have this common knowlege you are what i said you are before.. ignorant
To play devil's advocate here: no...not every mmorpg does this.
Lineage 2 back in October of last year was one of the first to install a third party software to scan your drives for information and against cheats, keyloggers, etc
There are a few others that utlizes this feature as well...but not every mmorpg follows this principle. However, I am not saying its bad practice. Im just stating that not every mmorpg follows this procedure
And guys, its ok to debate but dont take it so personally.
thx for posting this.....hmm i wonder if SWG does this....
i have no problem with them scanning certain files.....maybe like all of the program files and other non-personal info
but when they scan system files (wallpapers, cookies) i think there may be a small problem...
also u do agree to the ToC and EULA so they have the right to
pretty good debatable issue here
EDIT!!:
wow just found this in SOEs SWG EULA....
We cannot ensure that your private communications and other personally identifiable information will not be disclosed to third parties. For example, we may be forced to disclose information to the government or third parties under certain circumstances, or third parties may unlawfully intercept or access transmissions or private communications. Additionally, we can (and you authorize us to) disclose any information about you to private entities, law enforcement or other government officials as we, in our sole discretion, believe necessary or appropriate to investigate or resolve possible problems or inquiries.
so in other words they can sell ur private info if they think its ok...???
I wouldnt doubt that they do sell information to marketers but i believe the primary reason for that clause is harrassment, threats and hackers.
Originally posted by Copeland Originally posted by ArtifacT Originally posted by En1Gma Originally posted by Master_Shake i nor does anyone else need any smoking gun in this case. it's the same system that every MMO game uses. it's common knowlege. if you don't have this common knowlege you are what i said you are before.. ignorant
To play devil's advocate here: no...not every mmorpg does this.
Lineage 2 back in October of last year was one of the first to install a third party software to scan your drives for information and against cheats, keyloggers, etc
There are a few others that utlizes this feature as well...but not every mmorpg follows this principle. However, I am not saying its bad practice. Im just stating that not every mmorpg follows this procedure
And guys, its ok to debate but dont take it so personally.
thx for posting this.....hmm i wonder if SWG does this....
i have no problem with them scanning certain files.....maybe like all of the program files and other non-personal info
but when they scan system files (wallpapers, cookies) i think there may be a small problem...
also u do agree to the ToC and EULA so they have the right to
pretty good debatable issue here
EDIT!!:
wow just found this in SOEs SWG EULA....
We cannot ensure that your private communications and other personally identifiable information will not be disclosed to third parties. For example, we may be forced to disclose information to the government or third parties under certain circumstances, or third parties may unlawfully intercept or access transmissions or private communications. Additionally, we can (and you authorize us to) disclose any information about you to private entities, law enforcement or other government officials as we, in our sole discretion, believe necessary or appropriate to investigate or resolve possible problems or inquiries.
so in other words they can sell ur private info if they think its ok...???
I wouldnt doubt that they do sell information to marketers but i believe the primary reason for that clause is harrassment, threats and hackers.
But, you don't understand.
It's not about what they are 'probably' doing.
It's what you have given up to play their game. Nowhere in there does it say they will stop when your account expires. You have agreed to perpetual access by the game company to your machine, for all time.
What they will 'probably' do with that kind of power is moot. You just gave it to them.
Would you give away those rights to your government?
As to the government agencies already mentioned, NSA and others have to get permission to conduct their day to day work. In other words, they answer to somebody.
But if you believe that a EULA is a binding contract, then you have given them perpetual permission.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
A Statement on our Hack-Scanning Process | 8/12/2005 6:26:33 PM PDT
Theres some misinformation thats going around in regard to the hack-scanning process (not a separate program) that we run within the World of Warcraft executable, so wed like to take this opportunity to help clarify things for our players. First off, please note that our reluctance to discuss this issue is because in order to stay one step ahead of hackers, we have to be extremely careful in regard to what information we reveal about our security measures. Otherwise, we run the risk of revealing too much information and the hackers then being able to circumvent these security measures. This would of course defeat the purpose and leave World of Warcraft exposed to those relatively few unscrupulous players who want to cheat and ruin the experience for the millions of legitimate players.
Legally speaking, the scans are not a violation of rights. Understandably, thats beside the point for the people who are concerned about our security measures. What those players seem to be concerned about is whether the hack scans are ethically appropriate. To address those concerns, wed like to make it clear that the scan does not review or retrieve anything thats personally identifiable. For example, the data that the scans read is not data that says, This is John Does computer. John lives at 123 ABC Drive, his phone number is ABC, his personal interests are XYZ, he has ABC friends, and he sent XYZ emails yesterday. Again, we cant get into what specifically it does look at, but we can say that all it tells us is whether a computer is hacking World of Warcraft. If the scan alerts us that hacking is taking place, we take action against the account, basically cutting off the access of that account to the game. Note that we have absolutely no need for any personal information from the players machine to take that action. That is, we can completely do our job and shut down a cheaters account without gathering any personal data from his or her computer. Again, we have no use or desire for any personally identifying information that a player may have on his or her computer, and this particular security measure we have in place for World of Warcraft does not look at any such information on a players computer.
Some players have also raised the concern that this security measure slows down their computers. The process that World of Warcraft runs to protect itself has less of an impact on a computers performance than opening an all-text Web page or a single email.
As many players have noted, this security measuredesigned wholly to protect the game itself and legitimate players from the actions of cheatersis very similar to the security measures used by other online games for the same purpose. Punkbuster is one such example that players have pointed out. Our intent is not to deceive anyoneeven those few players set on cheating in World of Warcraft. This is why we present the Terms of Use every time the game is updated and give players the choice of whether they want to play by the rules that weve established to keep the game fair for everyone. We would not want to lose any players over this concern, but ultimately, we feel we would run a greater risk of losing even more players if we did not provide for the games security. We hope that after carefully reading each updated version of the Terms of Use, players decide they want to agree to those terms and continue playing World of Warcraft. Hopefully this further addresses the concerns of those who have them, and we appreciate the support of the many players who helped to independently shed light on things for their fellow players.
As with any controversial or non-controversial topic related to World of Warcraft, we have no problem with players openly discussing their feelings about this issue in our forums. We do ask, however, that players with opposing perspectives remain civil and adhere to the Forum Code of Conduct, as we will continue to moderate the forums in accordance with that.
this explained a lot. IDk about everyone else feelings but i have no problem with blizzards scans to stop the hacking because ive seen one of these hacks in game. Im glad i was only dueling the person but if i were in bgs or something i would be really pissed.
As long as they pretend they dont do it and simply try to help me (or make sure that I dont willingly goes against any laws), I dont care.
A little like my sweety half must pretend feeling no jealousy and not spying on me, I actually take pride if "spying" is done nicely and with great care to not bother me.
However, 1 thing must be taken into account, if a company you trust is spying on your hardware AFTER you install some stuff from them that you buy, it bring the whole "responsability" concept back into account. Example, clueless me dont know much about computers...if a company who is suppose to be caring and just checking install some stuff, how could you be held accountable for playing their game...
It simply bring the question, if they spy on you, what say they dont put some stuff in your computer, some illegal stuff I mean...*shrug* It will change the wording for accountable for what you do, rather then for what is on your computer...not sure if those companies want or not to take that road...me I am simply a paying customer and enjoying the products they offer me, and since their EULA cant respect our laws (it needs to be in french by default, not only available in french, but that is another topic), the worst they can do is to ban me.
As for Blizzard...with WoW they cripple their fan base...fanbois would say WoW is a success...but fact is, the next Blizzard product will see far less sells, fans didnt like the "must raid ending" and to be unable to "complete" what they care for (in Starcraft, Warcraft & Diablo fans can finish what they care for, always). If they release WoW2, or World of Starcraft, I would be surprise if it even break 1 million customers...assuming the release is in the next 5 years and WoW keep evolving the way it is...EQ2 reach more SoE fans in % then a WoW2 would...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Comments
So what you are saying is that you made it up, and you are actually misinforming the people of this forum.
That you have no actual information to give, but are just simply defending Blizzard randomly, just as they are scanning your system hehe.
I think your own statements clearly show where the real ignorance resides.
if your talking to yourself, and replace defending with bashing. then you got a winner there.
No reason to insult me because you have no credible proof that this is exactly what they are doing.
Easy, chief. No one is attacking your family or beloved game. It is interesting this topic, but I wouldn't be too alarmed or anything. But no need to keep calling people stupid and stuff hehe. My gf plays still and I am not scared they are selling our info off or anything, but good companys DO do bad things. Things like this do need to be discussed to keep them on an even keel and keep them honest.
I would like to hear an official word or see a decent link about the truth of this subject. I sure don't want anyone scanning my hard drive too much, but I do want them to check for cheaters.
If that were true my ass would be in jail by now. But my gov doesnt have the resources to wipe its own butt properly so I dont expect that they'd put the time and money into dipping into everyones harddrive.
But all the flaming aside (as charming as it may be), why would they scan cookies and wallpapers? I imagine every game does a standard memory scan to see if cheats are running in the background, but why the harddrive? It just seems rather questionable that they would scan unrelated items (not hack related) and then just ignore them. You can assume that they arnt getting that information, but it seems iffy becasue they scanned it in the first place.
I'm sorry for being uninformed, or maybe just dense.
But where do you see this in the EULA?
Or do you have a link from a representative from Blizzard that stated as much, that I have no access to?
Otherwise, the word of a player carries no weight whatsoever in these matters.
Found actually in terms of service which also must be accepted...
D. In order to assist Blizzard Entertainment to police users who may use "hacks," or "cheats" to gain an advantage over other players, you acknowledge that Blizzard Entertainment shall have the right to obtain certain information from your computer and its component parts, including your computer's random access memory, video card, central processing unit, and storage devices. This information will only be used for the purpose of identifying "cheaters," and for no other reason.
Terms of service has remained unchanged to my knowlage
link here http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.html
Furthermore blizzard programs seek only known hack programs nothing of a personal nature....
"all it tells us is whether a computer is hacking World of Warcraft. If the scan alerts us that hacking is taking place"
Link can be found here from a blizzard rep and other information http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4439675&p=1&tmp=1#post4439675
" They cannot force a customer to accept terms which remove their basic rights as Americans "
Contracts submiting to search and seizure without probable cause are allowed under U.S. law. A good example would be Workplace Drugtests.
Blizzard is not forcing anyone to play their game. You choose everyday too play it or not too. Other games do this as well. There is no fraud here from what i can see unless you wish to set precident and sue them (as well as other companies), but this will be a hard and expensive battle for you with no legal footing.
I'm sorry for being uninformed, or maybe just dense.
But where do you see this in the EULA?
Or do you have a link from a representative from Blizzard that stated as much, that I have no access to?
Otherwise, the word of a player carries no weight whatsoever in these matters.
Found actually in terms of service which also must be accepted...
D. In order to assist Blizzard Entertainment to police users who may use "hacks," or "cheats" to gain an advantage over other players, you acknowledge that Blizzard Entertainment shall have the right to obtain certain information from your computer and its component parts, including your computer's random access memory, video card, central processing unit, and storage devices. This information will only be used for the purpose of identifying "cheaters," and for no other reason.
Terms of service has remained unchanged to my knowlage
link here http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.html
Furthermore blizzard programs seek only known hack programs nothing of a personal nature....
"all it tells us is whether a computer is hacking World of Warcraft. If the scan alerts us that hacking is taking place"
Link can be found here from a blizzard rep and other information http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4439675&p=1&tmp=1#post4439675
" They cannot force a customer to accept terms which remove their basic rights as Americans "
Contracts submiting to search and seizure without probable cause are allowed under U.S. law. A good example would be Workplace Drugtests.
Blizzard is not forcing anyone to play their game. You choose everyday too play it or not too. Other games do this as well. There is no fraud here from what i can see unless you wish to set precident and sue them (as well as other companies), but this will be a hard and expensive battle for you with no legal footing.
Thanks for providing links to everything...the reason I questioned the other guy who said that is because he would give no credible proof to his claims.
I'm sorry for being uninformed, or maybe just dense.
But where do you see this in the EULA?
Or do you have a link from a representative from Blizzard that stated as much, that I have no access to?
Otherwise, the word of a player carries no weight whatsoever in these matters.
Found actually in terms of service which also must be accepted...
D. In order to assist Blizzard Entertainment to police users who may use "hacks," or "cheats" to gain an advantage over other players, you acknowledge that Blizzard Entertainment shall have the right to obtain certain information from your computer and its component parts, including your computer's random access memory, video card, central processing unit, and storage devices. This information will only be used for the purpose of identifying "cheaters," and for no other reason.
Terms of service has remained unchanged to my knowlage
link here http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.html
Furthermore blizzard programs seek only known hack programs nothing of a personal nature....
"all it tells us is whether a computer is hacking World of Warcraft. If the scan alerts us that hacking is taking place"
Link can be found here from a blizzard rep and other information http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=4439675&p=1&tmp=1#post4439675
" They cannot force a customer to accept terms which remove their basic rights as Americans "
Contracts submiting to search and seizure without probable cause are allowed under U.S. law. A good example would be Workplace Drugtests.
Blizzard is not forcing anyone to play their game. You choose everyday too play it or not too. Other games do this as well. There is no fraud here from what i can see unless you wish to set precident and sue them (as well as other companies), but this will be a hard and expensive battle for you with no legal footing.
Thanks for providing links to everything...the reason I questioned the other guy who said that is because he would give no credible proof to his claims.
first off.. i'm sorry if i sounded a bit harsh towards you milhoan. I know you wanted proof in text, but i admit that i couldnt give it to you because it wasnt written yet. all i could tell you was from my own experience with the same kind of system. you could take my word for it.. or you could have believed wepps that heard it from a guy that heard it from a guy that heard it from a guy. again i apologise for anything that i said that could have been interpeted as me flaming you. it wasn't my intent. i was only trying to explain, where others where posting rumors.
What I don't understand is why you are taking this so personally.
I'm going to sleep just fine tonight. Very shortly I will be dreaming of PWNING the next guy in a balanced MMO where my skills and tactics and not the buttons or the hacks determine a victory.
Ahhhh the dream.
I think what you don't get, is that I just don't care what happens LOL!
I'm just - curious. Ya know?
Besides, what happens here determines the future of online gaming. It may be less important than those demanding their rights say, it is probably more important than what the fanbois claim.
But this is always the case.
What really matters is what is going to take place in the next month. Will it blow up in a court of law? Will Blizzard be delivered the smackdown? Will they be vindicated?
Is it curtains for our heros?
Who can say.
edit - my money is on the United States, and the rights given her citizens. I see this as a violation of those rights, and in many cases an act of fraud.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
well i guess we can agree to disagree. while you believe that your rights that are meant to protect you from your government also apply to make void any terms you accept or contract you sign with a private company or person.
i believe that once you agree to terms, or sign a contract to use a private company or person's product you sign away the rights that do not even apply in that situation.
the thing about the blizzard starcraft lawsuit was that they didnt inform their customers that they were collecting your name and email address while playing the game. in this case they clearly have. there is no sneakiness or illegal activity when they clearly print in a terms of service of what they can do.. and you accept it. blizzard reps put it best. read the terms of service before you accept. if you don't agree with it then don't accept it and move on. it's the farthest thing from illegal and if anyone actually tries to take this to court the only thing they will get out of it is a legal fees bill from blizzard after the plaintiff loses.
Thanks again for the links. I now have no problem with Blizzard scanning my HD as long as the program just tells them if I am using cheats or not. I'll probably be back to WoW very soon.
This is similar to what they did in one of the Warcraft III patches. THey redid the Eula the next patch after that I think. Maybe this will happen in the next Wow patch too who knows.
I think it's only searching your ram to see if you are running any hacks or so. But I don't think it's sending the information it finds, they will probably enable sending later.
I think it's ok that they do this, the more they do against cheaters the better.
Compared to the inteligent agencies this is nothing to our privacy. Cia and Usa monitor mails/phonecalls that are sent/taken and look for certain word combinations that can prove that you are a terrorist. This is frightening I think.
To play devil's advocate here: no...not every mmorpg does this.
Lineage 2 back in October of last year was one of the first to install a third party software to scan your drives for information and against cheats, keyloggers, etc
There are a few others that utlizes this feature as well...but not every mmorpg follows this principle. However, I am not saying its bad practice. Im just stating that not every mmorpg follows this procedure
And guys, its ok to debate but dont take it so personally.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
To play devil's advocate here: no...not every mmorpg does this.
Lineage 2 back in October of last year was one of the first to install a third party software to scan your drives for information and against cheats, keyloggers, etc
There are a few others that utlizes this feature as well...but not every mmorpg follows this principle. However, I am not saying its bad practice. Im just stating that not every mmorpg follows this procedure
And guys, its ok to debate but dont take it so personally.
thx for posting this.....hmm i wonder if SWG does this....
i have no problem with them scanning certain files.....maybe like all of the program files and other non-personal info
but when they scan system files (wallpapers, cookies) i think there may be a small problem...
also u do agree to the ToC and EULA so they have the right to
pretty good debatable issue here
EDIT!!:
wow just found this in SOEs SWG EULA....
We cannot ensure that your private communications and other personally identifiable information will not be disclosed to third parties. For example, we may be forced to disclose information to the government or third parties under certain circumstances, or third parties may unlawfully intercept or access transmissions or private communications. Additionally, we can (and you authorize us to) disclose any information about you to private entities, law enforcement or other government officials as we, in our sole discretion, believe necessary or appropriate to investigate or resolve possible problems or inquiries.
so in other words they can sell ur private info if they think its ok...???
hmm good question
Id assume by law they have to respond whether or not they scan your hardware. You should give them an email and tell us what they say. Im curious as well.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
also about the constitution protecting u from the government...
a contract gives/takes legal rights to ppl that would be protected under government law which would in turn be protected by the constitution...
just thought i would point that out
This is absolutely nothing new. One of the most popular internet chess sites has been scanning peoples computers for years. Theres a few mmo's out there that have been doing it for quite awhile too, although i cant remember the names because when i see something like that i just delete the game.
Make a difference!
Um the FBI, CIA and NSA do this randomly as well. If you give up the rights by accepting the EULA then they sure can do it.
Make a difference!
To play devil's advocate here: no...not every mmorpg does this.
Lineage 2 back in October of last year was one of the first to install a third party software to scan your drives for information and against cheats, keyloggers, etc
There are a few others that utlizes this feature as well...but not every mmorpg follows this principle. However, I am not saying its bad practice. Im just stating that not every mmorpg follows this procedure
And guys, its ok to debate but dont take it so personally.
thx for posting this.....hmm i wonder if SWG does this....
i have no problem with them scanning certain files.....maybe like all of the program files and other non-personal info
but when they scan system files (wallpapers, cookies) i think there may be a small problem...
also u do agree to the ToC and EULA so they have the right to
pretty good debatable issue here
EDIT!!:
wow just found this in SOEs SWG EULA....
We cannot ensure that your private communications and other personally identifiable information will not be disclosed to third parties. For example, we may be forced to disclose information to the government or third parties under certain circumstances, or third parties may unlawfully intercept or access transmissions or private communications. Additionally, we can (and you authorize us to) disclose any information about you to private entities, law enforcement or other government officials as we, in our sole discretion, believe necessary or appropriate to investigate or resolve possible problems or inquiries.
so in other words they can sell ur private info if they think its ok...???
I wouldnt doubt that they do sell information to marketers but i believe the primary reason for that clause is harrassment, threats and hackers.
Make a difference!
To play devil's advocate here: no...not every mmorpg does this.
Lineage 2 back in October of last year was one of the first to install a third party software to scan your drives for information and against cheats, keyloggers, etc
There are a few others that utlizes this feature as well...but not every mmorpg follows this principle. However, I am not saying its bad practice. Im just stating that not every mmorpg follows this procedure
And guys, its ok to debate but dont take it so personally.
thx for posting this.....hmm i wonder if SWG does this....
i have no problem with them scanning certain files.....maybe like all of the program files and other non-personal info
but when they scan system files (wallpapers, cookies) i think there may be a small problem...
also u do agree to the ToC and EULA so they have the right to
pretty good debatable issue here
EDIT!!:
wow just found this in SOEs SWG EULA....
We cannot ensure that your private communications and other personally identifiable information will not be disclosed to third parties. For example, we may be forced to disclose information to the government or third parties under certain circumstances, or third parties may unlawfully intercept or access transmissions or private communications. Additionally, we can (and you authorize us to) disclose any information about you to private entities, law enforcement or other government officials as we, in our sole discretion, believe necessary or appropriate to investigate or resolve possible problems or inquiries.
so in other words they can sell ur private info if they think its ok...???
I wouldnt doubt that they do sell information to marketers but i believe the primary reason for that clause is harrassment, threats and hackers.
But, you don't understand.
It's not about what they are 'probably' doing.
It's what you have given up to play their game. Nowhere in there does it say they will stop when your account expires. You have agreed to perpetual access by the game company to your machine, for all time.
What they will 'probably' do with that kind of power is moot. You just gave it to them.
Would you give away those rights to your government?
As to the government agencies already mentioned, NSA and others have to get permission to conduct their day to day work. In other words, they answer to somebody.
But if you believe that a EULA is a binding contract, then you have given them perpetual permission.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Here's the latest from Blizzard:
A Statement on our Hack-Scanning Process | 8/12/2005 6:26:33 PM PDT
Theres some misinformation thats going around in regard to the hack-scanning process (not a separate program) that we run within the World of Warcraft executable, so wed like to take this opportunity to help clarify things for our players. First off, please note that our reluctance to discuss this issue is because in order to stay one step ahead of hackers, we have to be extremely careful in regard to what information we reveal about our security measures. Otherwise, we run the risk of revealing too much information and the hackers then being able to circumvent these security measures. This would of course defeat the purpose and leave World of Warcraft exposed to those relatively few unscrupulous players who want to cheat and ruin the experience for the millions of legitimate players.
Legally speaking, the scans are not a violation of rights. Understandably, thats beside the point for the people who are concerned about our security measures. What those players seem to be concerned about is whether the hack scans are ethically appropriate. To address those concerns, wed like to make it clear that the scan does not review or retrieve anything thats personally identifiable. For example, the data that the scans read is not data that says, This is John Does computer. John lives at 123 ABC Drive, his phone number is ABC, his personal interests are XYZ, he has ABC friends, and he sent XYZ emails yesterday. Again, we cant get into what specifically it does look at, but we can say that all it tells us is whether a computer is hacking World of Warcraft. If the scan alerts us that hacking is taking place, we take action against the account, basically cutting off the access of that account to the game. Note that we have absolutely no need for any personal information from the players machine to take that action. That is, we can completely do our job and shut down a cheaters account without gathering any personal data from his or her computer. Again, we have no use or desire for any personally identifying information that a player may have on his or her computer, and this particular security measure we have in place for World of Warcraft does not look at any such information on a players computer.
Some players have also raised the concern that this security measure slows down their computers. The process that World of Warcraft runs to protect itself has less of an impact on a computers performance than opening an all-text Web page or a single email.
As many players have noted, this security measuredesigned wholly to protect the game itself and legitimate players from the actions of cheatersis very similar to the security measures used by other online games for the same purpose. Punkbuster is one such example that players have pointed out. Our intent is not to deceive anyoneeven those few players set on cheating in World of Warcraft. This is why we present the Terms of Use every time the game is updated and give players the choice of whether they want to play by the rules that weve established to keep the game fair for everyone. We would not want to lose any players over this concern, but ultimately, we feel we would run a greater risk of losing even more players if we did not provide for the games security. We hope that after carefully reading each updated version of the Terms of Use, players decide they want to agree to those terms and continue playing World of Warcraft. Hopefully this further addresses the concerns of those who have them, and we appreciate the support of the many players who helped to independently shed light on things for their fellow players.
As with any controversial or non-controversial topic related to World of Warcraft, we have no problem with players openly discussing their feelings about this issue in our forums. We do ask, however, that players with opposing perspectives remain civil and adhere to the Forum Code of Conduct, as we will continue to moderate the forums in accordance with that.
- Caydiem -
/moo
good reply
Unreal.
Blizzard will never see another dime of mine. (Not that they currently are anyways.)
----------------------------------------------
"Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb." -- Batman
*shrug*
As long as they pretend they dont do it and simply try to help me (or make sure that I dont willingly goes against any laws), I dont care.
A little like my sweety half must pretend feeling no jealousy and not spying on me, I actually take pride if "spying" is done nicely and with great care to not bother me.
However, 1 thing must be taken into account, if a company you trust is spying on your hardware AFTER you install some stuff from them that you buy, it bring the whole "responsability" concept back into account. Example, clueless me dont know much about computers...if a company who is suppose to be caring and just checking install some stuff, how could you be held accountable for playing their game...
It simply bring the question, if they spy on you, what say they dont put some stuff in your computer, some illegal stuff I mean...*shrug* It will change the wording for accountable for what you do, rather then for what is on your computer...not sure if those companies want or not to take that road...me I am simply a paying customer and enjoying the products they offer me, and since their EULA cant respect our laws (it needs to be in french by default, not only available in french, but that is another topic), the worst they can do is to ban me.
As for Blizzard...with WoW they cripple their fan base...fanbois would say WoW is a success...but fact is, the next Blizzard product will see far less sells, fans didnt like the "must raid ending" and to be unable to "complete" what they care for (in Starcraft, Warcraft & Diablo fans can finish what they care for, always). If they release WoW2, or World of Starcraft, I would be surprise if it even break 1 million customers...assuming the release is in the next 5 years and WoW keep evolving the way it is...EQ2 reach more SoE fans in % then a WoW2 would...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren