Being an Indy Dev Would Drive Me Nuts

Amathe

While driving. Are we there yet? Are we there yet? I'm bored.

While cooking. Is it done? Is it ready? How much longer? I'm hungry.

While working. We need this asap. We need this stat. We're on a deadline. Hurry! 

I wonder how many times a day VR gets asked for a release date?

Ungood

Really, gonna admit, If I was a major game dev, or head of a studio, there is no way in hell I would deal with the general public.

Just too many pool shitters to risk it.

I'd hire or commission a PR rep, or get some fresh out of college intern, but, there is no way in hell I would deal with the general public.

Babuinix

Amathe said:

While driving. Are we there yet? Are we there yet? I'm bored.

While cooking. Is it done? Is it ready? How much longer? I'm hungry.

While working. We need this asap. We need this stat. We're on a deadline. Hurry! 

I wonder how many times a day VR gets asked for a release date?

You just described yours and 99% of the forum attitude towards Star Citizen and most Crowdfunded games lol

Truth is 99% of gamers have no idea about game development or business  and have trouble managing their expectations.

Amathe

Yes. If you leave off consideration of $300 million, it is exactly the same thing. 

delete5230

Well chicken soup should take about 6 hours not 9 years.

Wizardry

The way i see the gaming market,at least 99% of it is like someone doesn't know how to play hockey but is going to attempt to make it to the NHL.It is not impossible but it takes a lot of training, a lot of hard work and a mind that can grasp the concepts.
Sure some people can walk right up,slap on some skates and grasp that one concept rather quickly.Some people might walk up grab a hockey stick and sort of look like they know what they are doing.

This is how i see gaming,some sort of look like they know what they are doing and some just pretend and some have no business being there at all.
Even if you spend years learning all the skills needed does NOT guarantee you make a great hockey player.

So typically we see a whole lot of copying everyone else.This is what separates the best from the wannabes ,some are followers,copy cats ,some are creative and unique individuals.
Most of our great people in time were not followers or copy cats ,they were even at times shunned by the public.

Once a studio does "make it"builds up it's coffers with money,again doesn't mean a damn thing.All that it means is they can spend more money on marketing crap better than the little guy trying to sell his crap.

Eldrach

Babuinix said:

Amathe said:

While driving. Are we there yet? Are we there yet? I'm bored.

While cooking. Is it done? Is it ready? How much longer? I'm hungry.

While working. We need this asap. We need this stat. We're on a deadline. Hurry! 

I wonder how many times a day VR gets asked for a release date?

You just described yours and 99% of the forum attitude towards Star Citizen and most Crowdfunded games lol

Truth is 99% of gamers have no idea about game development or business  and have trouble managing their expectations.

So you’re claiming Star Citizen with it’s 500+ employees, 3 Studios, with their own TV channel, that hosts their own conventions, spearheaded by veterans in the industri and with a budget over 300 million dollars ..is an indie developer?

Kyleran

Well, in all fairness how many other industries do you get to take people's money yet have no commitment to even promise a target delivery date?.

So, when will our new house be finished? Err, someday?

So, when will the satellite be ready to launch? Err, someday?

That new powerplant comes online when?  Err, someday?

I just ordered a new gaming laptop, when will you ship it? Err, someday?

Yeah, that shit just doesn't float in most any other situation you can think of, not sure why people think it's appropriate for video game development.

Babuinix

Amathe said:

Yes. If you leave off consideration of $300 million, it is exactly the same thing. 

But You're the one leaving off the simple fact that Amazon studios also has to invest money to create their studio/games...

If you show a persons whole life salary earnings without deducting basic expenses you'll get a big fat number and think everybody's rich too lol

Fact is 99% cry for new and innovative mmorpgs at the same time they attack devs and games by taking risks with games that are trying to do just that simply because they have trouble dealing with the uncertainty of game development as having to adapt their expectations messes with their emotions lol

Oh and all that while complaining there's no good sci-fi mmorpgs ?

Babuinix

Eldrach said:

Babuinix said:

Amathe said:

While driving. Are we there yet? Are we there yet? I'm bored.

While cooking. Is it done? Is it ready? How much longer? I'm hungry.

While working. We need this asap. We need this stat. We're on a deadline. Hurry! 

I wonder how many times a day VR gets asked for a release date?

You just described yours and 99% of the forum attitude towards Star Citizen and most Crowdfunded games lol

Truth is 99% of gamers have no idea about game development or business  and have trouble managing their expectations.

So you’re claiming Star Citizen with it’s 500+ employees, 3 Studios, with their own TV channel, that hosts their own conventions, spearheaded by veterans in the industri and with a budget over 300 million dollars ..is an indie developer?

Yes. As they aren't owned / affiliated to any Publisher. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_indie_game_developers

Babuinix

Kyleran said:

Well, in all fairness how many other industries do you get to take people's money yet have no commitment to even promise a target delivery date?.

Crowdfunding a game is not a pre-order just as game development is not certain.

If gamers dont understand the risks of their investments its their problem.

Some of the best games ever were made with the "When it's ready" philosophy. The ones crying about release dates are usually the same ones crying about games releasing unfinished and buggy. If a game is not ready it's not ready and should be worked uppon to be the best product it can be independently of marketing campaign timings.

Now, not all companies have the re$$ources to develop like that, and what Blizzard shows is that maybe it's getting un$ustainable for some studios to do that but if other studios can they shouldn't be attacked for it imo.

No game ever has became a lesser product by having 1 more year to test/polish/iterate but many games have died at birth from not having it.

Kyleran

Babuinix said:

Kyleran said:

Well, in all fairness how many other industries do you get to take people's money yet have no commitment to even promise a target delivery date?.

Crowdfunding a game is not a pre-order just as game development is not certain.

If gamers dont understand the risks of their investments its their problem.

Some of the best games ever were made with the "When it's ready" philosophy. The ones crying about release dates are usually the same ones crying about games releasing unfinished and buggy. If a game is not ready it's not ready and should be worked uppon to be the best product it can be independently of marketing campaign timings.

Now, not all companies have the re$$ources to develop like that, and what Blizzard shows is that maybe it's getting un$ustainable for some studios to do that but if other studios can they shouldn't be attacked for it imo.

No game ever has became a lesser product by having 1 more year to test/polish/iterate but many games have died at birth from not having it.

Not my argument.  No one would want to open a new building, bridge, or drive a new car until it was ready and safe to do so.

Yet all of those projects have published target release dates, and quite often penalties for not meeting the dates or original budget.

They often do exceed their estimates, when it happens, new dates are established, but rarely will you ever hear anyone say, it will be finished "when it's ready".

Game development isn't rocket science, yet Nasa can set a date and hit it to land a rover on Mars despite the fact at the project start they had no idea how to make it happen, having to invent a totally new way to do it.

Took them less than 10 years BTW, looks like SC will well exceed that timeframe.

Stop excusing the gaming industry for shoddy development practices, it really isn't as hard as people try to make it.

Amathe

delete5230 said:

Well chicken soup should take about 6 hours not 9 years.

Those must be bionic chickens if it takes 6 hours to make soup from them. Just sayin.

delete5230

Amathe said:

delete5230 said:

Well chicken soup should take about 6 hours not 9 years.

Those must be bionic chickens if it takes 6 hours to make soup from them. Just sayin.

That's indy chicken making time, Triple A is 4. 

Mendel

I wonder... if being nuts drives one to become an indie developer?  Given some of the examples we've seen and discussed, that may be a prerequisite.

timeraider

Mendel said:

I wonder... if being nuts drives one to become an indie developer?  Given some of the examples we've seen and discussed, that may be a prerequisite.

Looking at the current state. I cant even imagine what it would take to become an AAA developer then ;D

Adamantine

I'm mostly surprised that Pantheon is still not even in alpha and that the developers still can keep going.

Theocritus

and then if you go to Youtube, Reddit or some other site and read about how players think your game is crap, then that would be difficult to keep going. They may spend 5-10 years working on a game that never sees the light of day. How many people would want to waste 5-10 years of their life working on something like that?

Wellspring

Theocritus said:

and then if you go to Youtube, Reddit or some other site and read about how players think your game is crap, then that would be difficult to keep going. They may spend 5-10 years working on a game that never sees the light of day. How many people would want to waste 5-10 years of their life working on something like that?

If it's your passion, then it probably doesn't feel like work.

If it does feel like work, then make sure you're getting paid for your time.

People spend 4+ years of their life in college PAYING to be taught by a professor, which often all of the homework and projects done there never see the light of day.

Building a video game that may never see the light of day can be a great way to self-learn.

If you're only building a video game (or anything else for that matter) for the praise / validation of other people, then you're never going to be happy.

Babuinix

Kyleran said:

Not my argument.  No one would want to open a new building, bridge, or drive a new car until it was ready and safe to do so.

Yet all of those projects have published target release dates, and quite often penalties for not meeting the dates or original budget.

They often do exceed their estimates, when it happens, new dates are established, but rarely will you ever hear anyone say, it will be finished "when it's ready".

Game development isn't rocket science, yet Nasa can set a date and hit it to land a rover on Mars despite the fact at the project start they had no idea how to make it happen, having to invent a totally new way to do it.

Took them less than 10 years BTW, looks like SC will well exceed that timeframe.

Stop excusing the gaming industry for shoddy development practices, it really isn't as hard as people try to make it.

What argument is that? If a game is not ready a game is not ready, in game development it's impossible to predict how long some tasks it will take.

Comparing with skyscraper, bridge or car building doesn't make sense since those aren't entertainment media that rely on the FUN factor which isn't a straightforward thing to achieve as making a bridge or building a car.

The penalties you're asking for is just your way of dealing with the frustration of wanting something and not having it.

Many studios work with the "When it's ready" mantra. That's why development of most games is done in secrecy for many many years and their release date is only announced near release. Why is Ubisoft releasing BeyondGood&Evil2? When will Rockstar release GTA6? Nobody knows, probably not even the dev's.

It's nothing about "game industry shoody development practices" it's just how things work in such a recent and ever evolving creative and entertainment field. As games become bigger and more complex they will need bigger teams and the harder it becomes to predict how long things will take.

But hey gamers gotta rage about something, being negative, cynical and angry is the easiest way to "look smart" in a discussion when you know little about the topic.

Ungood

Kyleran said:

Babuinix said:

Kyleran said:

Well, in all fairness how many other industries do you get to take people's money yet have no commitment to even promise a target delivery date?.

Crowdfunding a game is not a pre-order just as game development is not certain.

If gamers dont understand the risks of their investments its their problem.

Some of the best games ever were made with the "When it's ready" philosophy. The ones crying about release dates are usually the same ones crying about games releasing unfinished and buggy. If a game is not ready it's not ready and should be worked uppon to be the best product it can be independently of marketing campaign timings.

Now, not all companies have the re$$ources to develop like that, and what Blizzard shows is that maybe it's getting un$ustainable for some studios to do that but if other studios can they shouldn't be attacked for it imo.

No game ever has became a lesser product by having 1 more year to test/polish/iterate but many games have died at birth from not having it.

Not my argument.  No one would want to open a new building, bridge, or drive a new car until it was ready and safe to do so.

Yet all of those projects have published target release dates, and quite often penalties for not meeting the dates or original budget.

They often do exceed their estimates, when it happens, new dates are established, but rarely will you ever hear anyone say, it will be finished "when it's ready".

Game development isn't rocket science, yet Nasa can set a date and hit it to land a rover on Mars despite the fact at the project start they had no idea how to make it happen, having to invent a totally new way to do it.

Took them less than 10 years BTW, looks like SC will well exceed that timeframe.

Stop excusing the gaming industry for shoddy development practices, it really isn't as hard as people try to make it.

To be fair.. NASA when it was trying to do the moon landing, told anyone and everyone that disagreed with them to F-off.

Kyleran

Ungood said:

Kyleran said:

Babuinix said:

Kyleran said:

Well, in all fairness how many other industries do you get to take people's money yet have no commitment to even promise a target delivery date?.

Crowdfunding a game is not a pre-order just as game development is not certain.

If gamers dont understand the risks of their investments its their problem.

Some of the best games ever were made with the "When it's ready" philosophy. The ones crying about release dates are usually the same ones crying about games releasing unfinished and buggy. If a game is not ready it's not ready and should be worked uppon to be the best product it can be independently of marketing campaign timings.

Now, not all companies have the re$$ources to develop like that, and what Blizzard shows is that maybe it's getting un$ustainable for some studios to do that but if other studios can they shouldn't be attacked for it imo.

No game ever has became a lesser product by having 1 more year to test/polish/iterate but many games have died at birth from not having it.

Not my argument.  No one would want to open a new building, bridge, or drive a new car until it was ready and safe to do so.

Yet all of those projects have published target release dates, and quite often penalties for not meeting the dates or original budget.

They often do exceed their estimates, when it happens, new dates are established, but rarely will you ever hear anyone say, it will be finished "when it's ready".

Game development isn't rocket science, yet Nasa can set a date and hit it to land a rover on Mars despite the fact at the project start they had no idea how to make it happen, having to invent a totally new way to do it.

Took them less than 10 years BTW, looks like SC will well exceed that timeframe.

Stop excusing the gaming industry for shoddy development practices, it really isn't as hard as people try to make it.

To be fair.. NASA when it was trying to do the moon landing, told anyone and everyone that disagreed with them to F-off.

Well, they pulled it off in under ten years using tech we would consider primitive by most modern standards.

"Here am I sitting in my tin can...."

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Kyleran

blueturtle13 said:

Kyleran said:

Ungood said:

Kyleran said:

Babuinix said:

Kyleran said:

Well, in all fairness how many other industries do you get to take people's money yet have no commitment to even promise a target delivery date?.

Crowdfunding a game is not a pre-order just as game development is not certain.

If gamers dont understand the risks of their investments its their problem.

Some of the best games ever were made with the "When it's ready" philosophy. The ones crying about release dates are usually the same ones crying about games releasing unfinished and buggy. If a game is not ready it's not ready and should be worked uppon to be the best product it can be independently of marketing campaign timings.

Now, not all companies have the re$$ources to develop like that, and what Blizzard shows is that maybe it's getting un$ustainable for some studios to do that but if other studios can they shouldn't be attacked for it imo.

No game ever has became a lesser product by having 1 more year to test/polish/iterate but many games have died at birth from not having it.

Not my argument.  No one would want to open a new building, bridge, or drive a new car until it was ready and safe to do so.

Yet all of those projects have published target release dates, and quite often penalties for not meeting the dates or original budget.

They often do exceed their estimates, when it happens, new dates are established, but rarely will you ever hear anyone say, it will be finished "when it's ready".

Game development isn't rocket science, yet Nasa can set a date and hit it to land a rover on Mars despite the fact at the project start they had no idea how to make it happen, having to invent a totally new way to do it.

Took them less than 10 years BTW, looks like SC will well exceed that timeframe.

Stop excusing the gaming industry for shoddy development practices, it really isn't as hard as people try to make it.

To be fair.. NASA when it was trying to do the moon landing, told anyone and everyone that disagreed with them to F-off.

Well, they pulled it off in under ten years using tech we would consider primitive by most modern standards.

"Here am I sitting in my tin can...."

Did they?

Not even gonna go there.

delete5230

Kyleran said:

Ungood said:

Kyleran said:

Babuinix said:

Kyleran said:

Well, in all fairness how many other industries do you get to take people's money yet have no commitment to even promise a target delivery date?.

Crowdfunding a game is not a pre-order just as game development is not certain.

If gamers dont understand the risks of their investments its their problem.

Some of the best games ever were made with the "When it's ready" philosophy. The ones crying about release dates are usually the same ones crying about games releasing unfinished and buggy. If a game is not ready it's not ready and should be worked uppon to be the best product it can be independently of marketing campaign timings.

Now, not all companies have the re$$ources to develop like that, and what Blizzard shows is that maybe it's getting un$ustainable for some studios to do that but if other studios can they shouldn't be attacked for it imo.

No game ever has became a lesser product by having 1 more year to test/polish/iterate but many games have died at birth from not having it.

Not my argument.  No one would want to open a new building, bridge, or drive a new car until it was ready and safe to do so.

Yet all of those projects have published target release dates, and quite often penalties for not meeting the dates or original budget.

They often do exceed their estimates, when it happens, new dates are established, but rarely will you ever hear anyone say, it will be finished "when it's ready".

Game development isn't rocket science, yet Nasa can set a date and hit it to land a rover on Mars despite the fact at the project start they had no idea how to make it happen, having to invent a totally new way to do it.

Took them less than 10 years BTW, looks like SC will well exceed that timeframe.

Stop excusing the gaming industry for shoddy development practices, it really isn't as hard as people try to make it.

To be fair.. NASA when it was trying to do the moon landing, told anyone and everyone that disagreed with them to F-off.

Well, they pulled it off in under ten years using tech we would consider primitive by most modern standards.

"Here am I sitting in my tin can...."

It was faked to justify black projects that the people would not accept, also to fund NASA itself.... And it worked.

Nothing is more of a waste of money than NASA.




Mars ?....... Impossible, 
If they were to overcome the huge obstacles, space radiation can pass through all kinds of metals and everyone dies or has sever cancer. 

Ask yourself this..... With all it's funding, whats in if for "YOU AND I".  Will never see a personal return on investment.  NONE OF IT WOULD BE FOR OUR BENEFIT.

delete5230

Kyleran said:

Ungood said:

Kyleran said:

Babuinix said:

Kyleran said:

Well, in all fairness how many other industries do you get to take people's money yet have no commitment to even promise a target delivery date?.

Crowdfunding a game is not a pre-order just as game development is not certain.

If gamers dont understand the risks of their investments its their problem.

Some of the best games ever were made with the "When it's ready" philosophy. The ones crying about release dates are usually the same ones crying about games releasing unfinished and buggy. If a game is not ready it's not ready and should be worked uppon to be the best product it can be independently of marketing campaign timings.

Now, not all companies have the re$$ources to develop like that, and what Blizzard shows is that maybe it's getting un$ustainable for some studios to do that but if other studios can they shouldn't be attacked for it imo.

No game ever has became a lesser product by having 1 more year to test/polish/iterate but many games have died at birth from not having it.

Not my argument.  No one would want to open a new building, bridge, or drive a new car until it was ready and safe to do so.

Yet all of those projects have published target release dates, and quite often penalties for not meeting the dates or original budget.

They often do exceed their estimates, when it happens, new dates are established, but rarely will you ever hear anyone say, it will be finished "when it's ready".

Game development isn't rocket science, yet Nasa can set a date and hit it to land a rover on Mars despite the fact at the project start they had no idea how to make it happen, having to invent a totally new way to do it.

Took them less than 10 years BTW, looks like SC will well exceed that timeframe.

Stop excusing the gaming industry for shoddy development practices, it really isn't as hard as people try to make it.

To be fair.. NASA when it was trying to do the moon landing, told anyone and everyone that disagreed with them to F-off.

Well, they pulled it off in under ten years using tech we would consider primitive by most modern standards.

"Here am I sitting in my tin can...."

It was faked to justify black projects that the people would not accept, also to fund NASA itself.... And it worked.

Nothing is more of a waste of money than NASA.




Mars ?....... Impossible, 
If they were to overcome the huge obstacles, space radiation can pass through all kinds of metals and everyone dies or has sever cancer. 

Ask yourself this..... With all it's funding, whats in if for "YOU AND I".  Will never see a personal return on investment.  NONE OF IT WOULD BE FOR OUR BENEFIT.